| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Skypher" |
| Date: |
08 Dec 2003 02:00:43 PM |
| Object: |
Forgiveness |
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the person
or do you hold a grudge?
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| User: "Maverick" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
09 Dec 2003 02:55:13 PM |
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2003-12-08, 09:00:43 PM, Skypher wrote:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive
the person or do you hold a grudge?
Depends on the situation, for example if he/she took coca-cola, I would
think nothing of it, but if he/she murdered my entire family and set my
apartment on fire, then I suspect I would not forgive him/her.
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| User: "Blast Femur" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
08 Dec 2003 02:37:21 PM |
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(Skypher) wrote in
<20031208150043.28525.00000445@mb-m01.aol.com>:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the
person or do you hold a grudge?
I don't know. Biblegod would send me to hell for eternity if I wronged
him. I guess I'd do the opposite.
--
Blast Femur
______________
"A long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided
it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of
years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and
pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine
Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it
seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if
every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and *****
up Your Plan?"
-- George Carlin (NYC, 2/6/99)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
08 Dec 2003 10:31:23 PM |
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On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 14:37:21 -0600, (Blast Femur) wrote:
skypher@aol.com (Skypher) wrote in
<20031208150043.28525.00000445@mb-m01.aol.com>:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the
person or do you hold a grudge?
I don't know. Biblegod would send me to hell for eternity if I wronged
him. I guess I'd do the opposite.
I always suspected that you were better than "gawd"
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| User: "Blast Femur" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
08 Dec 2003 10:55:06 PM |
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wrote in
news:bvjatv8b7b29p0ihafnj8tesrol066813h@4ax.com:
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 14:37:21 -0600, (Blast Femur) wrote:
skypher@aol.com (Skypher) wrote in
<20031208150043.28525.00000445@mb-m01.aol.com>:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive
the person or do you hold a grudge?
I don't know. Biblegod would send me to hell for eternity if I
wronged him. I guess I'd do the opposite.
I always suspected that you were better than "gawd"
It's better than nothing. Heh - pun intended.
--
Blast Femur
______________
"We look at the ancient Greeks with their gods on a mountain top
throwing lightning bolts and say, 'Those ancient Greeks. They were so
silly. So primitive and naive. Not like our religions. We have burning
bushes talking to people and guys walking on water. We're
....sophisticated.'"
-Paul Provenza
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| User: "Woden" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
09 Dec 2003 04:17:23 PM |
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(Skypher) wrote in
news:20031208150043.28525.00000445@mb-m01.aol.com:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive
the person or do you hold a grudge?
I don't know. What does "forgive" really mean?
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
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| User: "Hypatia Kosh" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
08 Dec 2003 04:09:36 PM |
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(Skypher) wrote in message news:<20031208150043.28525.00000445@mb-m01.aol.com>...
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the person
or do you hold a grudge?
It really depends on the circumstances.
If the person or entity (like a gov't, corporation or other group) is
sorry, or does something good that balances their karma, or otherwise
shows signs that they're not going to cause harm again, I can be
pretty forgiving.
If the person or entity believes in the wrong they did and will
continue to do wrong, hell, no, I won't forgive them! In fact, I would
be a fool to let up my vigilance!
Think about this in Darwinistic terms (more scientism than scientific,
but what the hell) and you'll see why this is reasonable.
-Hypatia Kosh
--
Let tyrants shake their iron rod
And slav'ry clank her galling chains
We fear them not; we trust in God
New England's God forever reigns.
Chester, William Billings circa 1777
1783: Massachusetts SJC Outlaws Slavery
2003: Massachusetts SJC Legalizes Gay Marriage
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| User: "somebody" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
09 Dec 2003 04:59:31 AM |
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(Skypher) wrote:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the person
or do you hold a grudge?
Forgiving is overrated. You can only truly forgive if you actually
forget, and that's ordinarily an unconscious event (unless you bang
your head on the wall for that purpose, which may or may not work as
expected). If you mean an overt declaration of forgiving, it depends
on the circumnstances.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
11 Dec 2003 01:18:02 AM |
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In article <20031208150043.28525.00000445@mb-m01.aol.com>,
(Skypher) wrote:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the
person
or do you hold a grudge?
Depends.
--
John Hachmann, aa #1782
- Question authority. Now more than ever. -
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
08 Dec 2003 02:22:04 PM |
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In article <20031208150043.28525.00000445@mb-m01.aol.com>, Skypher says...
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the person
or do you hold a grudge?
Hate to sound like a broken record, but that would depend on the "wrong"
perpetuated against me.
Say, this "wrong" was to murder my child or husband. Forgiveness from me for
such an act? Highly unlikely.
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
09 Dec 2003 12:45:02 PM |
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Lo, many moons past, on 08 Dec 2003 20:00:43 GMT, a stranger called by
some (Skypher) came forth and told this tale in
alt.atheism
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the person
or do you hold a grudge?
Depends on the wrong, but most of the time I forgive.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
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| User: "Meteorite Debris" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
08 Dec 2003 06:22:04 PM |
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On 08 Dec 2003 20:00:43 GMT the ET form known as
Skypher<skypher@aol.com> sent a radio signal across the vast expanse
of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the person
or do you hold a grudge?
Of course forgiveness of an injuring party is not anything done for,
or to, the injuring party but for and to yourself. Just as a grudge
mostly does not hurt the injuring party, and is felt by the grudge
holder because the hurt done you is your pain projected. In any case
someone else's opinion of you is none of your business and can not be
willfully changed. Hint! Manipulative people are mostly unhappy
people.
--
To reply remove *THE_ANTI-SPAM_SHIELD*
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet -
Evil Atheist Conspiracy
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/
Shhh. Be very quiet, I'm hunting automorons. Heh heh.
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever
conceived." - Isaac Asimov
Fingerprint for PGP Keys at key server or go to
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/
RSA - 71 BA 7C 45 B5 4A 5F EA 72 DB EC 7F 7F A8 70 99
DSS - 9217 21A9 9C3F EB0B E302 AD0E 69C5 0F06 402E 0943
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
08 Dec 2003 10:36:51 PM |
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On 08 Dec 2003 20:00:43 GMT, (Skypher) posted in
alt.atheism:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the person
or do you hold a grudge?
Depends on whether the person was truly sorry for what s/he did.
--
"The doctrine that the earth is neither the center of the universe nor immovable, but
moves even with a daily rotation, is absurd, and both philosophically and theologically
false, and at the least an error of faith."
- Catholic Church's decision against Galileo Galilei
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Mark Richardson" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
08 Dec 2003 04:34:02 PM |
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On 08 Dec 2003 20:00:43 GMT, (Skypher) wrote:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the person
or do you hold a grudge?
Depends.
How badly were you wronged?
How important is this person to you?
Judge accordingly.
--
Mark Richardson mDOTrichardsonATutasDOTeduDOTau
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
(Sarcastic Middle aged Atheists with a Sense of Humour)
-----------------------------------------------------
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
08 Dec 2003 11:36:31 PM |
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On 08 Dec 2003 20:00:43 GMT, (Skypher) wrote:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the person
or do you hold a grudge?
That would depend on the person and how well you know them. This has
nothing to do with atheisam, as you very well know.
Michelle Malkin (Mickey)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Hands that work are better than mouths that pray -
Robert Ingersoll
****************************************************
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| User: "Kate " |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
11 Dec 2003 10:00:19 AM |
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On 08 Dec 2003 20:00:43 GMT, (Skypher) wrote:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the person
or do you hold a grudge?
The point of taking responsibility for harm done is to mitigate the
harm. Simply asking to be forgiven does not mitigate anything. You
must first admit that you have caused harm and then do whatever you
can to fix it. Some people may assume that asking for forgiveness
means that you admit your offense, but I don't see that as following.
I don't hold grudges, but I do hold people responsible for harm done
and will withhold trust until I feel comfortable with them again.
Sometimes the offense if unimportant enought to ignore and forget
sometimes it isn't. Context matters obviously.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
11 Dec 2003 02:48:25 AM |
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On 08 Dec 2003 20:00:43 GMT, (Skypher) wrote:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the person
or do you hold a grudge?
Yes.
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| User: "Roy Sinnamond" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
08 Dec 2003 03:50:06 PM |
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On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 20:00:43 +0000, Skypher wrote:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the
person or do you hold a grudge?
Define "forgiveness". I'm not just trying to be a smart-***** here. In
strictly personal relations, what is different after forgiveness than
before? Is forgiveness an action like a pardon? Is it saying, "What you
did is OK"?
Perhaps some people find "letting go" of something someone did to them
cathartic, I've just never been able to figure out what exactly I'm
supposed to be doing when I forgive someone. Consequently, I'm not sure
I've ever done it (or needed to).
--
Roy Sinnamond
aa #1798 EAC Minister of Cognitive Dissonance
roysinnamond at mac dot com
"That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, Bingo!"
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| User: "GoDrex" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
08 Dec 2003 07:01:51 PM |
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"Roy Sinnamond" <see@my.sig> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.12.08.21.50.05.742476@my.sig...
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 20:00:43 +0000, Skypher wrote:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the
person or do you hold a grudge?
Define "forgiveness". I'm not just trying to be a smart-***** here. In
strictly personal relations, what is different after forgiveness than
before? Is forgiveness an action like a pardon? Is it saying, "What you
did is OK"?
no - forgiving someone is not like saying what they did was OK. When you
forgive someone you're actually freeing yourself of the burden of being hurt
with them. It's like saying 'what you did was hurt me but I'm not going to
hold a grudge against you about it. Lets try to move on from here.' Of
course you can forgive someone for what they've done and still not associate
with them. It just means that you're not going to harbor ill will towards
them. It's more something you do for yourself than for them - though of
course it is certainly nice to be forgiven by someone if you've done
something that you're genuinely sorry about. It's all about defusing the bad
feelings, but not excusing the behavior. I think a lot of people have
trouble with this concept because it's much easier to hate someone and hold
a grudge when you feel you've been wronged. And also some people are
assholes and will walk all over a forgiving person if they're allowed to.
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| User: "Rv Cloim" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
08 Dec 2003 05:51:52 PM |
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On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 20:00:43 +0000, Skypher wrote:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the person
or do you hold a grudge?
I don't hold grudges. That doesn't mean I forgive everything.
It depends. What did they do? Why did they do it? Are they sorry? Have
they made restitution? Why are they asking for forgiveness? Is it a repeat
offense? ...
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| User: "John Popelish" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
09 Dec 2003 09:19:18 AM |
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Skypher wrote:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the person
or do you hold a grudge?
I have been thinking about this in light of the free will (its
illusory nature) discussions I have been reading here. It occurs to
me that forgiveness is a recognition of lack of free will in others.
But the decision as to when forgiveness is appropriate depends on your
judgment of whether withholding forgiveness might have a beneficial
effect on the future actions of the one needing forgiveness (alter
their further course in a desirable direction or not, compared to
withholding that forgiveness). This decision must also take the
possibly detrimental effect of withholding forgiveness on the future
life of the one deciding. Holding grudges can be a big negative force
in one's life. And our all our lives are just reactions to lots of
forces.
Some obvious examples.
A hurricane destroys your house. Do you hold a long term grudge
against weather thereafter? Or do you forgive it? Since your
forgiveness has no useful effect on the future course the weather, the
only effect of forgiveness that needs to be considered is its effect
on you. Similarly, staying mad at a person who is completely out of
touch with reality is pretty pointless whether they ask for your
forgiveness or not.
A child does something hurtful, and you (the parent) get upset with
their behavior, and show that displeasure in some fashion. How you
show this displeasure, and how long you show it should have one
purpose, and one purpose, only. Your reaction should be tailored
toward helping the child build an internal judgment about what
behavior is hurtful to others and why such behavior is destructive for
everyone, including the one doing it. So forgiveness should be rather
quick in coming, because a child's attention span is short. Staying
mad for a long time does not add much to the lesson but has a very bad
effect on your ability to interact in good ways afterward.
--
John Popelish
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| User: "Enkidu" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
08 Dec 2003 10:22:59 PM |
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Skypher wrote:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive
the person or do you hold a grudge?
I've only managed to hold a grudge against one person for any lenght of time
.. . . and I'm going to her funeral just to make sure she's dead.
In every other case, forgive.
--
Enkidu
hhe1mxo02@sneakemail.com
PGP KeyID 0xC5FEABDF
-----
Of all things, good sense is the most fairly distributed: everyone
thinks he is so well supplied with it that even those who are the
hardest to satisfy in every other respect never desire more of it than
they already have.
René Descartes, Discours de la Méthode. 1637.
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
08 Dec 2003 03:44:20 PM |
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Skypher wrote:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the person
or do you hold a grudge?
Not enough information. In most cases, I would give forgiveness.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"If you make yourself a sheep, the wolves will eat you."
-- Benjamin Franklin
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| User: "Patrick Brown" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
09 Dec 2003 01:59:00 AM |
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Skypher wrote:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the person
or do you hold a grudge?
Depends on how serious the wrong was, whether I'm still angry about it,
and how sincere I think the wronger is. I'm not going to forgive someone
who I think will treat me the same way again.
Patrick
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| User: "Graham Kennedy" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
08 Dec 2003 02:05:48 PM |
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Skypher wrote:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the person
or do you hold a grudge?
Forgive.
--
Graham Kennedy
Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org
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| User: "193.2 CLAYTON FM...\Shits and Memories" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
08 Dec 2003 04:52:37 PM |
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Skypher wrote:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the
person
or do you hold a grudge?
Kill their dog, smash their garden gnomes, tape Seinfeld over their wedding
video, cut the brakes on their car and ***** their wife and/or teenage
daughter.
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| User: "Graham Kennedy" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
08 Dec 2003 06:23:11 PM |
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193.2 CLAYTON FM..."Shits and Memories" wrote:
Skypher wrote:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the
person
or do you hold a grudge?
Kill their dog, smash their garden gnomes, tape Seinfeld over their wedding
video, cut the brakes on their car and ***** their wife and/or teenage
daughter.
But do you forgive them after that?
--
Graham Kennedy
Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org
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| User: "193.2 CLAYTON FM...\Shits and Memories" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
09 Dec 2003 12:56:33 AM |
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"Graham Kennedy" <graham@ditl.org> wrote in message
news:1070929209.62429.0@iris.uk.clara.net...
193.2 CLAYTON FM..."Shits and Memories" wrote:
Skypher wrote:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the
person
or do you hold a grudge?
Kill their dog, smash their garden gnomes, tape Seinfeld over their
wedding
video, cut the brakes on their car and ***** their wife and/or teenage
daughter.
But do you forgive them after that?
What's left of them..yes.
--
Graham Kennedy
Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
09 Dec 2003 07:21:57 AM |
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In article <3fd4fff1$0$13634$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, 193.2 CLAYTON
FM...\"Shits and Memories\" says...
Skypher wrote:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the
person
or do you hold a grudge?
Kill their dog, smash their garden gnomes, tape Seinfeld over their wedding
video, cut the brakes on their car and ***** their wife and/or teenage
daughter.
Whoa!
(Note to self: Under any circumstances, do NOT ***** Clayton off) ;)
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
09 Dec 2003 11:49:45 AM |
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On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 08:52:37 +1000, 193.2 CLAYTON FM..."Shits and Memories" wrote:
Skypher wrote:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive the
person
or do you hold a grudge?
Kill their dog, smash their garden gnomes, tape Seinfeld over their
wedding video, cut the brakes on their car and ***** their wife and/or
teenage daughter.
You forgot "send threatening e-mail to the White House from their e-mail
address"
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
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| User: "193.2 CLAYTON FM...\Shits and Memories" |
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| Title: Re: Forgiveness |
09 Dec 2003 07:47:24 PM |
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"MarkA" <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.12.09.17.48.48.8482@stopspam.net...
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 08:52:37 +1000, 193.2 CLAYTON FM..."Shits and
Memories" wrote:
Skypher wrote:
I am taking a poll.
If a person has wronged you and asked for forgivness, do you forgive
the
person
or do you hold a grudge?
Kill their dog, smash their garden gnomes, tape Seinfeld over their
wedding video, cut the brakes on their car and ***** their wife and/or
teenage daughter.
You forgot "send threatening e-mail to the White House from their e-mail
address"
Oooo...good one...I'll just jot that down.
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
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