| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"IKnowHimDoYou" |
| Date: |
20 May 2004 10:51:12 AM |
| Object: |
Frame or Painting? |
Frame or Painting?
Consider a picture hanging on a wall. It consists in the material world
of a frame and a painting. Even further it consists of wood, canvas,
pigment, nails, string, etc., common materials to be sure.
Now consider the painting itself. It consist of the work of an artist, a
person who has spent time composing, sketching, designing and rendering a
meaningful work of art(unless it is modern art which has no meaning or is
made by a chimp). The artist in making the painting may be conveying a
message or just showing something of beauty for those who view it. The
painting is more tha just the material items used to make it is it not?
This same observation can be applied to science and the supernatural.
Science can see and examine the material elements of the painting but can
go no farther. The supernatural(that wihch exceeds the natural) is
contained in the artists work or design and lies outside of science. When
people try to mix the two they are coming from different directions and
the two areas cannot be compared. No one, who is intelligent, would deny
this and both areas are observable to everyone is they but look. The
evolutionists,however, only sees the material side, the frame so to
speak, never noticing or being aware of the painting and its content or
meaning. The Christian sees not only the material area but sees beyond it
to the work of art contained in that material giving it purpose and
meaning as well as beauty by the Artist.
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| User: "R Brown" |
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| Title: Re: Frame or Painting? |
20 May 2004 05:20:54 PM |
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"IKnowHimDoYou" <IKnowHim@leavingsoon.com> wrote in message
news:IKnowHim-2005040851120001@pm8-15.kalama.com...
Frame or Painting?
Consider a picture hanging on a wall. It consists in the material world
of a frame and a painting. Even further it consists of wood, canvas,
pigment, nails, string, etc., common materials to be sure.
Now consider the painting itself. It consist of the work of an artist, a
person who has spent time composing, sketching, designing and rendering a
meaningful work of art(unless it is modern art which has no meaning or is
made by a chimp). The artist in making the painting may be conveying a
message or just showing something of beauty for those who view it. The
painting is more tha just the material items used to make it is it not?
This same observation can be applied to science and the supernatural.
Science can see and examine the material elements of the painting but can
go no farther. The supernatural(that wihch exceeds the natural) is
contained in the artists work or design and lies outside of science. When
people try to mix the two they are coming from different directions and
the two areas cannot be compared. No one, who is intelligent, would deny
this and both areas are observable to everyone is they but look. The
evolutionists,however, only sees the material side, the frame so to
speak, never noticing or being aware of the painting and its content or
meaning. The Christian sees not only the material area but sees beyond it
to the work of art contained in that material giving it purpose and
meaning as well as beauty by the Artist.
Actually, I find this to be one of your better cut-and-paste jobs. Science
is limited to the natural, material world. Religion has no such limits
imposed upon it. That is why your belief system has no place in the science
classroom. Get it?
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| User: "Thore Schmechtig" |
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| Title: Re: Frame or Painting? |
21 May 2004 12:41:23 AM |
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12 - 9 = ?
--
UNWRITTEN RULES OF (PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN) FUNDAMENTALISM
(Found in alt.bible, authors unknown)
1. "I'm right and you are wrong".
2. Never admit that you are wrong, even if you really are.
3. When you have nothing to say, hurl insults.
4. Regard and portray your own violence, whether physical, psychological,
or verbal, at all times as defensive
4a. Specific example for 4.: Cry for "freedom of religion", but whenever followers of other faiths want the same freedom and courts agree, scream "Persecution!"
5. Be prepared at all times to lie and bluster, particularly when backed
into a corner in an argument
5a. When caught lying, always accuse the opposition of lying rather than be honest and admit the obvious
6. Never accept responsibility for any mess you have personally caused.
7. When you are forced to admit to an error, regard the whole process of
error and correction as part of God's personal plan for you and not as a
something for which you should apologise retract or make amends except
verbally and secretly to God himself
8. Always see yourself and you personal actions as part of God's plans for
the world. Recognise that even your errors are just part of Gods will for
the betterment of mankind.
9.Profess humility but avoid the actual experience of it.
10.Refuse to take in information that differs from your own view and
oppose all such information through classification of such information in
a derogatory and simplistic manner(eg by categorising it as left wing
propaganda)
11.Refuse to accept that truth is not black and white; that reality is
complex and there are shades of grey
12.Refuse to forgive anyone else for anything unless you purport to
forgive on behalf of other people unconnected with you for whom you don't
have that right anyhow.
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| User: "Kermit" |
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| Title: Re: Frame or Painting? |
20 May 2004 10:54:54 PM |
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(IKnowHimDoYou) wrote in message news:<IKnowHim-2005040851120001@pm8-15.kalama.com>...
Frame or Painting?
Consider a picture hanging on a wall. It consists in the material world
of a frame and a painting. Even further it consists of wood, canvas,
pigment, nails, string, etc., common materials to be sure.
Now consider the painting itself. It consist of the work of an artist, a
person who has spent time composing, sketching, designing and rendering a
meaningful work of art(unless it is modern art which has no meaning or is
made by a chimp). The artist in making the painting may be conveying a
message or just showing something of beauty for those who view it. The
painting is more tha just the material items used to make it is it not?
This same observation can be applied to science and the supernatural.
Science can see and examine the material elements of the painting but can
go no farther. The supernatural(that wihch exceeds the natural) is
contained in the artists work or design and lies outside of science. When
people try to mix the two they are coming from different directions and
the two areas cannot be compared. No one, who is intelligent, would deny
this and both areas are observable to everyone is they but look. The
evolutionists,however, only sees the material side, the frame so to
speak, never noticing or being aware of the painting and its content or
meaning. The Christian sees not only the material area but sees beyond it
to the work of art contained in that material giving it purpose and
meaning as well as beauty by the Artist.
Maybe *some Christians do - even the majority, but the Young Earth
Creationists hate the natural world, and fear to study it. The
evolutionary scientists are often theists, and speak most eloquently
of the beauty of the world. Scientists, whether theist or not, have
never stopped finding wonder in the world. Those who refuse to learn
have closed their account with reality and lurk in the shadows.
Of course, some of us see no supernatural side to anything. When we
ask for evidence, you only offer us your own words and behavior, which
- frankly - seem less than impressive. Got anything besides these
little homilies?
Kermit
Kermit
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| User: "GlennGlenn" |
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| Title: Re: Frame or Painting? |
20 May 2004 05:39:32 PM |
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IFuckedHimDidYou wrote:
....none of it. The whole wretched, simple-minded passage was plagiarized.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Frame or Painting? |
24 May 2004 11:35:54 AM |
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On Thu, 20 May 2004 22:39:32 GMT, GlennGlenn
<DipthotDipthot@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com>, Message ID:
<Esarc.51718$9C1.21626@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com> wrote in alt.atheism;
IFuckedHimDidYou wrote:
...none of it. The whole wretched, simple-minded passage was plagiarized.
From who's outhouse did he steal the dip from this time?
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: Frame or Painting? |
20 May 2004 06:28:19 PM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, IKnowHimDoYou poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
Frame or Painting?
....
Now consider the painting itself. It consist of the work of an artist, a
person who has spent time composing, sketching, designing and rendering a
meaningful work of art(unless it is modern art which has no meaning or is
made by a chimp).
Kinda shoots your argument. As you acknowledge, art does not always have
meaning. So please explain the formula that determines meaning.
The artist in making the painting may be conveying a
message or just showing something of beauty for those who view it.
And the artist who creates those "meaningless" works of modern art also
sees meaning in his work.
The
painting is more tha just the material items used to make it is it not?
Not to a lobster.
Value is assigned by the viewer. It is not intrinsic.
This same observation can be applied to science and the supernatural.
Correction. "This same twaddle".
Science can see and examine the material elements of the painting but can
go no farther.
Baloney. Science understands the relevance and significance of
arrangement, order, symmetry and complexity.
The supernatural(that wihch exceeds the natural) is ...
... pure speculation.
...
The
evolutionists,however, only sees the material side, the frame so to
speak, never noticing or being aware of the painting and its content or
meaning. The Christian sees not only the material area but sees beyond it
to the work of art contained in that material giving it purpose and
meaning as well as beauty by the Artist.
Straw man.
Regards,
Josef
To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and
it remains premature today.
-- Isaac Asimov
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Frame or Painting? |
20 May 2004 07:28:38 PM |
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On Thu, 20 May 2004 19:28:19 -0400, Josef Balluch
<josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
And the artist who creates those "meaningless" works of modern art also
sees meaning in his work.
A Paul Hogan said:
"Strewth, what are these?"
"Those are Jackson Pollocks."
"You're telling me."
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
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| Title: Re: Frame or Painting? |
20 May 2004 08:30:59 PM |
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"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:j6jqa0dqgam7ohk91ah565l3lsfft2es8q@4ax.com...
On Thu, 20 May 2004 19:28:19 -0400, Josef Balluch
<josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
And the artist who creates those "meaningless" works of modern art also
sees meaning in his work.
A Paul Hogan said:
"Strewth, what are these?"
"Those are Jackson Pollocks."
"You're telling me."
Only the Brits are going to understand that you're doing a pun on
'bollocks'.
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| User: "The Clayton, The Bitch And The Wardrobe Drinker" |
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| Title: Re: Frame or Painting? |
21 May 2004 07:38:29 PM |
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"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:q6adnXZRgttPxjDdRVn_iw@comcast.com...
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:j6jqa0dqgam7ohk91ah565l3lsfft2es8q@4ax.com...
On Thu, 20 May 2004 19:28:19 -0400, Josef Balluch
<josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
And the artist who creates those "meaningless" works of modern art also
sees meaning in his work.
A Paul Hogan said:
"Strewth, what are these?"
"Those are Jackson Pollocks."
"You're telling me."
Only the Brits are going to understand that you're doing a pun on
'bollocks'.
Well, considering it's Paul Hogan, the Australians are also likely to get
it.
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| User: "Kate " |
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| Title: Re: Frame or Painting? |
20 May 2004 03:34:09 PM |
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On Thu, 20 May 2004 08:51:12 -0700,
(IKnowHimDoYou) wrote:
Frame or Painting?
Consider a picture hanging on a wall. It consists in the material world
of a frame and a painting. Even further it consists of wood, canvas,
pigment, nails, string, etc., common materials to be sure.
Now consider the painting itself. It consist of the work of an artist, a
person who has spent time composing, sketching, designing and rendering a
meaningful work of art(unless it is modern art which has no meaning or is
made by a chimp). The artist in making the painting may be conveying a
message or just showing something of beauty for those who view it. The
painting is more tha just the material items used to make it is it not?
This same observation can be applied to science and the supernatural.
Science can see and examine the material elements of the painting but can
go no farther. The supernatural(that wihch exceeds the natural) is
contained in the artists work or design and lies outside of science. When
people try to mix the two they are coming from different directions and
the two areas cannot be compared. No one, who is intelligent, would deny
this and both areas are observable to everyone is they but look. The
evolutionists,however, only sees the material side, the frame so to
speak, never noticing or being aware of the painting and its content or
meaning. The Christian sees not only the material area but sees beyond it
to the work of art contained in that material giving it purpose and
meaning as well as beauty by the Artist.
No, the Christian sees a flower and tries to take credit for it using
his God made in his own image. Then he tells you what it means and
threatens you if you don't agree.
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: Frame or Painting? |
20 May 2004 04:16:58 PM |
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On Thu, 20 May 2004 08:51:12 -0700, IKnowHimDoYou wrote:
Frame or Painting?
Consider a picture hanging on a wall. It consists in the material world
of a frame and a painting. Even further it consists of wood, canvas,
pigment, nails, string, etc., common materials to be sure.
<snip idiotic drivel>
Have you ever heard the phrase "emergent property?" Scientists know
perfectly well that a person is more than just a collection of Carbon,
Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen atoms.
The difference is that the Xtian will construct an elaborate fantasy about
the painter, with nothing more to go on than a collection of old,
implausible rumors.
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
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