Free Choice, Evolution and Selfish Genes



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Deuteros"
Date: 14 Jul 2005 03:31:33 PM
Object: Free Choice, Evolution and Selfish Genes
It is generally agreed that we have evolved to maximize our contribution to
the gene pool. Ignoring creationism for the moment, this truth is self
evident, if you consider that animals (or strictly the genes which they
carry) that were not good at contributing to the gene pool would obviously
die out in favor of those which were.
In 1492AD, each species on the planet, and each race of humans was uniquely
and tremendously adapted to their environment. Then the Americas were
colonised. Since then, mass migration and technology have changed our
environment faster than our genetic ability to adapt to that environment.
The fact that 'we ourselves' caused the change is irrelevant. Yeast fungi
'chooses' to produce the alcohol which eventually poisons it in the
fermentation process. Not all changes are in the genetic interests of the
entity that changed them.
Nor is this to say that the population has not exploded due to these new
conditions - yeast has not evolved to grow in sterile laboratory test tubes,
but its population grows very quickly in that environment.
So the human species has been thrust into the modern world, but is actually
evolved to something closer to the African savannah, primitive Europe, or
East Asia.
Mankind is an extraordinary creature - weaker than the similar sized animals
around him, much slower than those animals, with very poor defences, no
claws for defence or tree-climbing, teeth which are so far set back in his
head as no be almost useless for fighting, a lack of fur which would see him
freeze to death in a single night in conditions which other animals would
thrive, and an incredibly fragile, and critical, organ on top of his head.
Mankind has been equipped with two things which help him survive (and
therefore reproduce) in a primitive world: dextrous hands, and a logical
mind. These, and these alone set this pathetic, naked and shivering biped
apart from all other animals.
Minds are much like computers, and run programs to tell them what to do. But
man's mind was not programmed to maximize his reproductive potential - it
was merely a enhancement to the brains of the animals it evolved from. And
it was programmed to fill the basic animal needs - water, food, security,
shelter, sex, and social status.
And on the savannah this worked very well. And it adapted well to the cold
of Europe, and into Asia. A human who had water, food, shelter, sex and
social status did genetically better than humans who didn't have these
things.
But man's new cognitive abilities were so powerful that it enabled man not
just to adapt to his environment but to change that very environment. Formal
education, television, motor cars, nine-to-five jobs and international trade
weren't on the 1492 agenda.
An animal's mind stuck inside the body of a man might be a plot for a B-rate
sci-fi film, but in a sense all of us have the mind of a primitive in the
lifestyle of a modern man. Our desires have become somewhat divorced from
genetic advantage, and our choices are frequently not those which genetic
success would suggest.
A full belly is a desirable goal for a human on the savannah, but in the
modern world can lead to obesity, and premature death. A preference for
sweet food is a good thing if the sweetest available thing is ripe fruit,
but in an age of boiled lollies it will rot your teeth, and may make you
mal-nourished.
And many of the primitive desires can be satisfied by effectively 'cheating'
the system. Two technologies in particular have satisfied sexual drives -
the electric motor and the color photograph (or more recently the video
internet download). Even when sex is with a partner, contraceptive
technologies (and the ability to abort) mean that sexual desires can be met
without increasing genetic success. Frequent sexual activity in the
pre-industrialized time would almost invariably result in having children,
but in the modern age we often observe just the opposite. The swinging
bachelor recognizes that his sexual desires would actually be hindered by
the presence of children, and chooses not to have them.
So man has become equipped with a huge reasoning capacity, which has evolved
because it gave him a genetic advantage in primitive times. But man is still
using that reasoning capacity to meet the the goals which his ancestors
needed to meet in order to survive - goals which may not equate to genetic
success in the modern world. The mind is designed to maximize the number of
descendents, but programmed to find food, shelter, sex and social status.
Just as the yeast changes its environment and poisons itself, so too some
groups seem to be dying out. The population in poorer parts of the world is
still growing exponentially, but the birth rates in rich western countries
is well below replacement level. This is not because of any lack of freedom
to fulfill their genetic function, but precisely because they do have the
freedom to make their own decisions, and to control their fertility.
Should we care? To answer that would involve a moral judgement about what
people's goals should be. Libertarians generally avoid making moral
judgements (beyond the obligation to not steal). Some racists and white
puritans seem to be very alarmed about this. Others don't really care.
And what is the future? It depends on the world migration patterns, but the
future does not look white or red - it looks to be a mixture of yellow,
black, and brown, and the poorer the group, the faster they are breeding.
Perhaps we should just bless the poor - for they shall inherit the earth. Or
maybe the common element is not poverty but ignorance, and George Orwell
will be proven correct: Ignorance is strength.
Anyway, it's something for Homo Superior to ponder as you exercise your free
will to prune yourself off the evolutionary tree.
.

User: "Bill"

Title: Re: Free Choice, Evolution and Selfish Genes 14 Jul 2005 07:36:43 PM
Despite the negative comments from some posters, I would like to
congratulate you on a thoughtful and perceptive post.
"Deuteros" <deuteros@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:1xxdg5w534xb7$.dlg@sec12-crow.ultima.com...

It is generally agreed that we have evolved to maximize our contribution
to
the gene pool. Ignoring creationism for the moment, this truth is self
evident, if you consider that animals (or strictly the genes which they
carry) that were not good at contributing to the gene pool would obviously
die out in favor of those which were.

In 1492AD, each species on the planet, and each race of humans was
uniquely
and tremendously adapted to their environment. Then the Americas were
colonised. Since then, mass migration and technology have changed our
environment faster than our genetic ability to adapt to that environment.

The fact that 'we ourselves' caused the change is irrelevant. Yeast fungi
'chooses' to produce the alcohol which eventually poisons it in the
fermentation process. Not all changes are in the genetic interests of the
entity that changed them.

Nor is this to say that the population has not exploded due to these new
conditions - yeast has not evolved to grow in sterile laboratory test
tubes,
but its population grows very quickly in that environment.

So the human species has been thrust into the modern world, but is
actually
evolved to something closer to the African savannah, primitive Europe, or
East Asia.

Mankind is an extraordinary creature - weaker than the similar sized
animals
around him, much slower than those animals, with very poor defences, no
claws for defence or tree-climbing, teeth which are so far set back in his
head as no be almost useless for fighting, a lack of fur which would see
him
freeze to death in a single night in conditions which other animals would
thrive, and an incredibly fragile, and critical, organ on top of his head.

Mankind has been equipped with two things which help him survive (and
therefore reproduce) in a primitive world: dextrous hands, and a logical
mind. These, and these alone set this pathetic, naked and shivering biped
apart from all other animals.

Minds are much like computers, and run programs to tell them what to do.
But
man's mind was not programmed to maximize his reproductive potential - it
was merely a enhancement to the brains of the animals it evolved from. And
it was programmed to fill the basic animal needs - water, food, security,
shelter, sex, and social status.

And on the savannah this worked very well. And it adapted well to the cold
of Europe, and into Asia. A human who had water, food, shelter, sex and
social status did genetically better than humans who didn't have these
things.

But man's new cognitive abilities were so powerful that it enabled man not
just to adapt to his environment but to change that very environment.
Formal
education, television, motor cars, nine-to-five jobs and international
trade
weren't on the 1492 agenda.

An animal's mind stuck inside the body of a man might be a plot for a
B-rate
sci-fi film, but in a sense all of us have the mind of a primitive in the
lifestyle of a modern man. Our desires have become somewhat divorced from
genetic advantage, and our choices are frequently not those which genetic
success would suggest.

A full belly is a desirable goal for a human on the savannah, but in the
modern world can lead to obesity, and premature death. A preference for
sweet food is a good thing if the sweetest available thing is ripe fruit,
but in an age of boiled lollies it will rot your teeth, and may make you
mal-nourished.

And many of the primitive desires can be satisfied by effectively
'cheating'
the system. Two technologies in particular have satisfied sexual drives -
the electric motor and the color photograph (or more recently the video
internet download). Even when sex is with a partner, contraceptive
technologies (and the ability to abort) mean that sexual desires can be
met
without increasing genetic success. Frequent sexual activity in the
pre-industrialized time would almost invariably result in having children,
but in the modern age we often observe just the opposite. The swinging
bachelor recognizes that his sexual desires would actually be hindered by
the presence of children, and chooses not to have them.

So man has become equipped with a huge reasoning capacity, which has
evolved
because it gave him a genetic advantage in primitive times. But man is
still
using that reasoning capacity to meet the the goals which his ancestors
needed to meet in order to survive - goals which may not equate to genetic
success in the modern world. The mind is designed to maximize the number
of
descendents, but programmed to find food, shelter, sex and social status.

Just as the yeast changes its environment and poisons itself, so too some
groups seem to be dying out. The population in poorer parts of the world
is
still growing exponentially, but the birth rates in rich western countries
is well below replacement level. This is not because of any lack of
freedom
to fulfill their genetic function, but precisely because they do have the
freedom to make their own decisions, and to control their fertility.

Should we care? To answer that would involve a moral judgement about what
people's goals should be. Libertarians generally avoid making moral
judgements (beyond the obligation to not steal). Some racists and white
puritans seem to be very alarmed about this. Others don't really care.

And what is the future? It depends on the world migration patterns, but
the
future does not look white or red - it looks to be a mixture of yellow,
black, and brown, and the poorer the group, the faster they are breeding.

Perhaps we should just bless the poor - for they shall inherit the earth.
Or
maybe the common element is not poverty but ignorance, and George Orwell
will be proven correct: Ignorance is strength.

Anyway, it's something for Homo Superior to ponder as you exercise your
free
will to prune yourself off the evolutionary tree.

.

User: "skyeyes"

Title: Re: Free Choice, Evolution and Selfish Genes 14 Jul 2005 05:01:05 PM
Deuteros wrote:

In 1492AD, each species on the planet, and each race of humans was uniquely
and tremendously adapted to their environment. Then the Americas were
colonised. Since then, mass migration and technology have changed our
environment faster than our genetic ability to adapt to that environment.

I don't understand your fascination with 1492 AD. Human have been
migrating and bringing species along on their travels for about 44,000
years - that's about when the first modern humans left Africa and went
walkabout. Humans have been introducing species to new places all
during that time. It didn't start in 1492, that's
just a date significant to Europeans and Native Americans.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
.

User: ""

Title: Re: Free Choice, Evolution and Selfish Genes 14 Jul 2005 05:42:46 PM
Deuteros wrote:

It is generally agreed that we have evolved to maximize our contribution to
the gene pool. Ignoring creationism for the moment, this truth is self
evident, if you consider that animals (or strictly the genes which they
carry) that were not good at contributing to the gene pool would obviously
die out in favor of those which were.

In 1492AD, each species on the planet, and each race of humans was uniquely
and tremendously adapted to their environment.

These adaptations existed, but I dunno about "tremendously". The Inuit
are adapted to the cold compared to a Masaai, but not compared to a
polar bear. We are all only a few thousand years (or less) from the
African savannah.

Then the Americas were
colonised. Since then, mass migration and technology have changed our
environment faster than our genetic ability to adapt to that environment.

It started when we began poking other animals with sharp sticks. WE eat
more meat than any other primate, yet we are the only primate (IIRC)
without fighting canines. Why is that? It's because we have been
killing and fighting with killing tools for so long that our teeth have
simply adapted to teh best eating arrangement.
It beagan speeding up with agriculture, and more quickly as technology
raced ahead, sure. But I don't know if we should pin it down to one
year or event.


The fact that 'we ourselves' caused the change is irrelevant. Yeast fungi
'chooses' to produce the alcohol which eventually poisons it in the
fermentation process. Not all changes are in the genetic interests of the
entity that changed them.

Correct. A subtle point which many people miss.


Nor is this to say that the population has not exploded due to these new
conditions - yeast has not evolved to grow in sterile laboratory test tubes,
but its population grows very quickly in that environment.

So the human species has been thrust into the modern world, but is actually
evolved to something closer to the African savannah, primitive Europe, or
East Asia.

Hence we all like yards with a couple of trees and maybe some flowers
over there, by the edge.


Mankind is an extraordinary creature - weaker than the similar sized animals
around him, much slower than those animals,

Not in the long run. Literally, a decent human runner can beat a race
horse over the long haul. Only wolves, and maybe wildebeest, can outrun
us. We are the Joggers with Sharp Sticks.

with very poor defences, no
claws for defence or tree-climbing, teeth which are so far set back in his
head as no be almost useless for fighting,

Ever get so mad at someone you had violent fantasies? You didn't think
of biting him, did you? You thought of picking something up and
whacking him, or poking him.

a lack of fur which would see him
freeze to death in a single night in conditions which other animals would
thrive,

Not other tropical creatures. A chimp would be no happier than a naked
human in a Swedish winter.

and an incredibly fragile, and critical, organ on top of his head.

That's true enough.


Mankind has been equipped with two things which help him survive (and
therefore reproduce) in a primitive world: dextrous hands, and a logical
mind.

And an ability to run. Even a couch potato will run longer to catch a
bus than a chimp will in a fight or hunt. Of course, a chimp could
literally rip my arm off.

These, and these alone set this pathetic, naked and shivering biped
apart from all other animals.

Speak for yourself. Give a stick, a flint, and time to build up some
callouses on my feet, and I'll have the local critters hiding from me.


Minds are much like computers,

How so?

and run programs to tell them what to do. But
man's mind was not programmed to maximize his reproductive potential - it
was merely a enhancement to the brains of the animals it evolved from. And
it was programmed to fill the basic animal needs - water, food, security,
shelter, sex, and social status.

Well, at the time, these *did maximize reproductive potential.


And on the savannah this worked very well. And it adapted well to the cold
of Europe, and into Asia. A human who had water, food, shelter, sex and
social status did genetically better than humans who didn't have these
things.

But man's new cognitive abilities were so powerful that it enabled man not
just to adapt to his environment but to change that very environment. Formal
education, television, motor cars, nine-to-five jobs and international trade
weren't on the 1492 agenda.

An animal's mind stuck inside the body of a man might be a plot for a B-rate
sci-fi film, but in a sense all of us have the mind of a primitive in the
lifestyle of a modern man. Our desires have become somewhat divorced from
genetic advantage, and our choices are frequently not those which genetic
success would suggest.

Sweet tooth. Dislike of exercise. Suicidal sex. Yup.


A full belly is a desirable goal for a human on the savannah, but in the
modern world can lead to obesity, and premature death. A preference for
sweet food is a good thing if the sweetest available thing is ripe fruit,
but in an age of boiled lollies it will rot your teeth, and may make you
mal-nourished.

And many of the primitive desires can be satisfied by effectively 'cheating'
the system. Two technologies in particular have satisfied sexual drives -
the electric motor and the color photograph (or more recently the video
internet download). Even when sex is with a partner, contraceptive
technologies (and the ability to abort) mean that sexual desires can be met
without increasing genetic success. Frequent sexual activity in the
pre-industrialized time would almost invariably result in having children,
but in the modern age we often observe just the opposite. The swinging
bachelor recognizes that his sexual desires would actually be hindered by
the presence of children, and chooses not to have them.

So man has become equipped with a huge reasoning capacity, which has evolved
because it gave him a genetic advantage in primitive times. But man is still
using that reasoning capacity to meet the the goals which his ancestors
needed to meet in order to survive - goals which may not equate to genetic
success in the modern world. The mind is designed to maximize the number of
descendents, but programmed to find food, shelter, sex and social status.

Just as the yeast changes its environment and poisons itself, so too some
groups seem to be dying out. The population in poorer parts of the world is
still growing exponentially, but the birth rates in rich western countries
is well below replacement level. This is not because of any lack of freedom
to fulfill their genetic function, but precisely because they do have the
freedom to make their own decisions, and to control their fertility.

Should we care? To answer that would involve a moral judgement about what
people's goals should be. Libertarians generally avoid making moral
judgements (beyond the obligation to not steal). Some racists and white
puritans seem to be very alarmed about this. Others don't really care.

And what is the future? It depends on the world migration patterns, but the
future does not look white or red - it looks to be a mixture of yellow,
black, and brown, and the poorer the group, the faster they are breeding.

For now. Straight line projections are iffy at best, and in a rapidly
changing world I would rather be middle class and educated.


Perhaps we should just bless the poor - for they shall inherit the earth. Or
maybe the common element is not poverty but ignorance, and George Orwell
will be proven correct: Ignorance is strength.

Anyway, it's something for Homo Superior to ponder as you exercise your free
will to prune yourself off the evolutionary tree.

Why would we be pruning ourselves off the tree by having lots of
babies? Are you saying that if we get a little browner on the average,
we're extinct? That doesn't seem to be what you're concluding, but I
can't parse this sentence any other way. In what way are we "deciding"
to go extinct? Right whales are in far greater danger than we.
Kermit
.

User: "SortingItOut"

Title: Re: Free Choice, Evolution and Selfish Genes 14 Jul 2005 11:42:06 PM
Deuteros wrote:

It is generally agreed that we have evolved to maximize our contribution to
the gene pool. Ignoring creationism for the moment, this truth is self
evident, if you consider that animals (or strictly the genes which they
carry) that were not good at contributing to the gene pool would obviously
die out in favor of those which were.

In 1492AD, each species on the planet, and each race of humans was uniquely
and tremendously adapted to their environment. Then the Americas were
colonised. Since then, mass migration and technology have changed our
environment faster than our genetic ability to adapt to that environment.

I'm not sure what you mean here. You use the past tense, as if we've
already struggled and failed, or at least are in a struggle to adapt
right now. But other than some proposed future threats, we seem to be
doing just fine so far. Please explain.


The fact that 'we ourselves' caused the change is irrelevant. Yeast fungi
'chooses' to produce the alcohol which eventually poisons it in the
fermentation process. Not all changes are in the genetic interests of the
entity that changed them.

Nor is this to say that the population has not exploded due to these new
conditions - yeast has not evolved to grow in sterile laboratory test tubes,
but its population grows very quickly in that environment.

So the human species has been thrust into the modern world, but is actually
evolved to something closer to the African savannah, primitive Europe, or
East Asia.

Mankind is an extraordinary creature - weaker than the similar sized animals
around him, much slower than those animals, with very poor defences, no
claws for defence or tree-climbing, teeth which are so far set back in his
head as no be almost useless for fighting, a lack of fur which would see him
freeze to death in a single night in conditions which other animals would
thrive, and an incredibly fragile, and critical, organ on top of his head.

You seem to be exaggerating here. You say we evolved on the African
savannah, but then claim that lack of fur is a problem. And our heads
seem far from fragile.


Mankind has been equipped with two things which help him survive (and
therefore reproduce) in a primitive world: dextrous hands, and a logical
mind. These, and these alone set this pathetic, naked and shivering biped
apart from all other animals.

Pathetic, naked, shivering?


Minds are much like computers, and run programs to tell them what to do. But
man's mind was not programmed to maximize his reproductive potential - it
was merely a enhancement to the brains of the animals it evolved from. And
it was programmed to fill the basic animal needs - water, food, security,
shelter, sex, and social status.

And on the savannah this worked very well. And it adapted well to the cold
of Europe, and into Asia. A human who had water, food, shelter, sex and
social status did genetically better than humans who didn't have these
things.

But man's new cognitive abilities were so powerful that it enabled man not
just to adapt to his environment but to change that very environment. Formal
education, television, motor cars, nine-to-five jobs and international trade
weren't on the 1492 agenda.

An animal's mind stuck inside the body of a man might be a plot for a B-rate
sci-fi film, but in a sense all of us have the mind of a primitive in the
lifestyle of a modern man. Our desires have become somewhat divorced from
genetic advantage, and our choices are frequently not those which genetic
success would suggest.

A full belly is a desirable goal for a human on the savannah, but in the
modern world can lead to obesity, and premature death. A preference for
sweet food is a good thing if the sweetest available thing is ripe fruit,
but in an age of boiled lollies it will rot your teeth, and may make you
mal-nourished.

And many of the primitive desires can be satisfied by effectively 'cheating'
the system. Two technologies in particular have satisfied sexual drives -
the electric motor and the color photograph (or more recently the video
internet download). Even when sex is with a partner, contraceptive
technologies (and the ability to abort) mean that sexual desires can be met
without increasing genetic success. Frequent sexual activity in the
pre-industrialized time would almost invariably result in having children,
but in the modern age we often observe just the opposite. The swinging
bachelor recognizes that his sexual desires would actually be hindered by
the presence of children, and chooses not to have them.

So man has become equipped with a huge reasoning capacity, which has evolved
because it gave him a genetic advantage in primitive times. But man is still
using that reasoning capacity to meet the the goals which his ancestors
needed to meet in order to survive - goals which may not equate to genetic
success in the modern world. The mind is designed to maximize the number of
descendents, but programmed to find food, shelter, sex and social status.

Just as the yeast changes its environment and poisons itself, so too some
groups seem to be dying out. The population in poorer parts of the world is
still growing exponentially, but the birth rates in rich western countries
is well below replacement level. This is not because of any lack of freedom
to fulfill their genetic function, but precisely because they do have the
freedom to make their own decisions, and to control their fertility.

Should we care? To answer that would involve a moral judgement about what
people's goals should be. Libertarians generally avoid making moral
judgements (beyond the obligation to not steal). Some racists and white
puritans seem to be very alarmed about this. Others don't really care.

And what is the future? It depends on the world migration patterns, but the
future does not look white or red - it looks to be a mixture of yellow,
black, and brown, and the poorer the group, the faster they are breeding.

Perhaps we should just bless the poor - for they shall inherit the earth. Or
maybe the common element is not poverty but ignorance, and George Orwell
will be proven correct: Ignorance is strength.

Anyway, it's something for Homo Superior to ponder as you exercise your free
will to prune yourself off the evolutionary tree.

We live in an overcrowded world. While some cultures may be
out-reproduced and supplanted by other cultures, I'm not sure why you
make your last statement about pruning ourselves from the evolutionary
tree. A catastrophic environment change (whether of our own doing or
not) is probably the only thing capable of eliminating humanity
entirely. Choosing not to have kids is not such a threat unless all
cultures do this simultaneously, which seems very unlikely. I'm sure
the birthrate in America would rise again if we weren't so overcrowded.
.

User: "Bill"

Title: Re: Free Choice, Evolution and Selfish Genes 15 Jul 2005 10:46:59 AM
I see you have generated much controversy. That is healthy. Personally I
would like to congratulate you on a very thoughtful post.
Bill
"Deuteros" <deuteros@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:1xxdg5w534xb7$.dlg@sec12-crow.ultima.com...

It is generally agreed that we have evolved to maximize our contribution
to
the gene pool. Ignoring creationism for the moment, this truth is self
evident, if you consider that animals (or strictly the genes which they
carry) that were not good at contributing to the gene pool would obviously
die out in favor of those which were.

In 1492AD, each species on the planet, and each race of humans was
uniquely
and tremendously adapted to their environment. Then the Americas were
colonised. Since then, mass migration and technology have changed our
environment faster than our genetic ability to adapt to that environment.

The fact that 'we ourselves' caused the change is irrelevant. Yeast fungi
'chooses' to produce the alcohol which eventually poisons it in the
fermentation process. Not all changes are in the genetic interests of the
entity that changed them.

Nor is this to say that the population has not exploded due to these new
conditions - yeast has not evolved to grow in sterile laboratory test
tubes,
but its population grows very quickly in that environment.

So the human species has been thrust into the modern world, but is
actually
evolved to something closer to the African savannah, primitive Europe, or
East Asia.

Mankind is an extraordinary creature - weaker than the similar sized
animals
around him, much slower than those animals, with very poor defences, no
claws for defence or tree-climbing, teeth which are so far set back in his
head as no be almost useless for fighting, a lack of fur which would see
him
freeze to death in a single night in conditions which other animals would
thrive, and an incredibly fragile, and critical, organ on top of his head.

Mankind has been equipped with two things which help him survive (and
therefore reproduce) in a primitive world: dextrous hands, and a logical
mind. These, and these alone set this pathetic, naked and shivering biped
apart from all other animals.

Minds are much like computers, and run programs to tell them what to do.
But
man's mind was not programmed to maximize his reproductive potential - it
was merely a enhancement to the brains of the animals it evolved from. And
it was programmed to fill the basic animal needs - water, food, security,
shelter, sex, and social status.

And on the savannah this worked very well. And it adapted well to the cold
of Europe, and into Asia. A human who had water, food, shelter, sex and
social status did genetically better than humans who didn't have these
things.

But man's new cognitive abilities were so powerful that it enabled man not
just to adapt to his environment but to change that very environment.
Formal
education, television, motor cars, nine-to-five jobs and international
trade
weren't on the 1492 agenda.

An animal's mind stuck inside the body of a man might be a plot for a
B-rate
sci-fi film, but in a sense all of us have the mind of a primitive in the
lifestyle of a modern man. Our desires have become somewhat divorced from
genetic advantage, and our choices are frequently not those which genetic
success would suggest.

A full belly is a desirable goal for a human on the savannah, but in the
modern world can lead to obesity, and premature death. A preference for
sweet food is a good thing if the sweetest available thing is ripe fruit,
but in an age of boiled lollies it will rot your teeth, and may make you
mal-nourished.

And many of the primitive desires can be satisfied by effectively
'cheating'
the system. Two technologies in particular have satisfied sexual drives -
the electric motor and the color photograph (or more recently the video
internet download). Even when sex is with a partner, contraceptive
technologies (and the ability to abort) mean that sexual desires can be
met
without increasing genetic success. Frequent sexual activity in the
pre-industrialized time would almost invariably result in having children,
but in the modern age we often observe just the opposite. The swinging
bachelor recognizes that his sexual desires would actually be hindered by
the presence of children, and chooses not to have them.

So man has become equipped with a huge reasoning capacity, which has
evolved
because it gave him a genetic advantage in primitive times. But man is
still
using that reasoning capacity to meet the the goals which his ancestors
needed to meet in order to survive - goals which may not equate to genetic
success in the modern world. The mind is designed to maximize the number
of
descendents, but programmed to find food, shelter, sex and social status.

Just as the yeast changes its environment and poisons itself, so too some
groups seem to be dying out. The population in poorer parts of the world
is
still growing exponentially, but the birth rates in rich western countries
is well below replacement level. This is not because of any lack of
freedom
to fulfill their genetic function, but precisely because they do have the
freedom to make their own decisions, and to control their fertility.

Should we care? To answer that would involve a moral judgement about what
people's goals should be. Libertarians generally avoid making moral
judgements (beyond the obligation to not steal). Some racists and white
puritans seem to be very alarmed about this. Others don't really care.

And what is the future? It depends on the world migration patterns, but
the
future does not look white or red - it looks to be a mixture of yellow,
black, and brown, and the poorer the group, the faster they are breeding.

Perhaps we should just bless the poor - for they shall inherit the earth.
Or
maybe the common element is not poverty but ignorance, and George Orwell
will be proven correct: Ignorance is strength.

Anyway, it's something for Homo Superior to ponder as you exercise your
free
will to prune yourself off the evolutionary tree.

.

User: "Misleart Chuff"

Title: Re: Free Choice, Evolution and Selfish Genes 14 Jul 2005 04:19:13 PM
Just what was this rant in ignorance in favor of?
"Deuteros" <deuteros@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:1xxdg5w534xb7$.dlg@sec12-crow.ultima.com...
[Major Snip to the rescue]
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Free Choice, Evolution and Selfish Genes 14 Jul 2005 04:54:39 PM
I think it favors manic/depressive medication
Larry
.


User: "Matt Silberstein"

Title: Re: Free Choice, Evolution and Selfish Genes 14 Jul 2005 10:27:43 PM
On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:31:33 -0400, in alt.atheism , Deuteros
<deuteros@xrs.net> in <1xxdg5w534xb7$.dlg@sec12-crow.ultima.com>
wrote:

It is generally agreed that we have evolved to maximize our contribution to
the gene pool.

I am not at all sure what that means, so I can't agree.

Ignoring creationism for the moment, this truth is self
evident, if you consider that animals (or strictly the genes which they
carry) that were not good at contributing to the gene pool would obviously
die out in favor of those which were.

No, it is the animals (and plants and bacteria and so on), the
phenotype, not the genes, that are "good" or "bad". The genes are
they stuff that gets passed on.

In 1492AD, each species on the planet, and each race of humans was uniquely
and tremendously adapted to their environment. Then the Americas were
colonised. Since then, mass migration and technology have changed our
environment faster than our genetic ability to adapt to that environment.

Sorry, but mass migration has occurred over and over. You somehow have
skipped how humans came to North American (and Australia and
Polynesia) in the first place. Then there was the connection between
North and South America. And the repeated opening and closing of the
Bering bridge.

The fact that 'we ourselves' caused the change is irrelevant. Yeast fungi
'chooses' to produce the alcohol which eventually poisons it in the
fermentation process. Not all changes are in the genetic interests of the
entity that changed them.

Nor is this to say that the population has not exploded due to these new
conditions - yeast has not evolved to grow in sterile laboratory test tubes,
but its population grows very quickly in that environment.

So the human species has been thrust into the modern world, but is actually
evolved to something closer to the African savannah, primitive Europe, or
East Asia.
Mankind is an extraordinary creature - weaker than the similar sized animals
around him,

Not really. We have stronger legs than chimps, for example.

much slower than those animals,

We are pretty fast. And we can run for very long distances unlike many
others.
[snip]


But man's new cognitive abilities were so powerful that it enabled man not
just to adapt to his environment but to change that very environment.

Lots (all?) organisms change their environment. Elephants are a key
organism in their ecosystems in that they create the savannah by
destroying the trees. Beavers, of course, create their ponds. Corals
create their reefs. Do you want more examples?
[snip]

And many of the primitive desires can be satisfied by effectively 'cheating'
the system. Two technologies in particular have satisfied sexual drives -
the electric motor and the color photograph (or more recently the video
internet download).

Chimps and other primates are able to figure this out without the high
tech.
[snip]

Just as the yeast changes its environment and poisons itself, so too some
groups seem to be dying out. The population in poorer parts of the world is
still growing exponentially, but the birth rates in rich western countries
is well below replacement level. This is not because of any lack of freedom
to fulfill their genetic function, but precisely because they do have the
freedom to make their own decisions, and to control their fertility.

Should we care? To answer that would involve a moral judgement about what
people's goals should be. Libertarians generally avoid making moral
judgements (beyond the obligation to not steal). Some racists and white
puritans seem to be very alarmed about this. Others don't really care.

Huh?
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
Well ya see, Norm, it's like this. A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members. In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Excessive intake of alcohol, as we know, kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. That's why you always feel smarter after a few beers.
Cliff on Cheers
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Free Choice, Evolution and Selfish Genes 16 Jul 2005 02:33:09 PM
Matt Silberstein wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:31:33 -0400, in alt.atheism , Deuteros
<deuteros@xrs.net> in <1xxdg5w534xb7$.dlg@sec12-crow.ultima.com>
wrote:

[snip]


Well ya see, Norm, it's like this. A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as >the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and >weakest ones at the back that are killed first.

Depends on whether the hunters are killing the stragglers or simply
driving the herd over a bluff so that those below can simply carve up
the carcases. Humans are even better at the latter type of 'hunt' than
they are at the former.

This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general
speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of
the weakest members. In much the same way, the human brain can only operate
as fast as the slowest brain cells. Excessive intake of alcohol, as we know,
kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain
cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker
brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. That's why
you always feel smarter after a few beers.

Same argument, but with fast cars and fast women. Result depends on
whether the danger is behind you or actually ahead of you.

Cliff on Cheers

.
User: "r norman"

Title: Re: Free Choice, Evolution and Selfish Genes 16 Jul 2005 02:45:34 PM
On 16 Jul 2005 12:33:09 -0700,
wrote:



Matt Silberstein wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:31:33 -0400, in alt.atheism , Deuteros
<deuteros@xrs.net> in <1xxdg5w534xb7$.dlg@sec12-crow.ultima.com>
wrote:

[snip]


Well ya see, Norm, it's like this. A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as >the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and >weakest ones at the back that are killed first.


Depends on whether the hunters are killing the stragglers or simply
driving the herd over a bluff so that those below can simply carve up
the carcases. Humans are even better at the latter type of 'hunt' than
they are at the former.

To what extent do human hunters actually do this? How many habitats
have convenient cliffs located just on the edge of a grazing field?
To what extent does human hunting act as a selective force on grazing
animals, as opposed to simply a force tending to produce extinction
(as in the western hemisphere, Australia, etc.) or as opposed to other
predators (Africa, Asia).
.
User: "Rick Pikul"

Title: Re: Free Choice, Evolution and Selfish Genes 17 Jul 2005 12:42:21 AM
On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:45:34 -0400, r norman wrote:

On 16 Jul 2005 12:33:09 -0700,

wrote:

Depends on whether the hunters are killing the stragglers or simply
driving the herd over a bluff so that those below can simply carve up
the carcases. Humans are even better at the latter type of 'hunt' than
they are at the former.


To what extent do human hunters actually do this?

Enough that there are places named 'Smashed in the Head Buffalo Jump' and
'PileOBones'.
--
Phoenix
.

User: "Duane Bozarth"

Title: Re: Free Choice, Evolution and Selfish Genes 16 Jul 2005 05:22:34 PM
r norman wrote:


On 16 Jul 2005 12:33:09 -0700,

wrote:



Matt Silberstein wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:31:33 -0400, in alt.atheism , Deuteros
<deuteros@xrs.net> in <1xxdg5w534xb7$.dlg@sec12-crow.ultima.com>
wrote:

[snip]


Well ya see, Norm, it's like this. A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as >the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and >weakest ones at the back that are killed first.


Depends on whether the hunters are killing the stragglers or simply
driving the herd over a bluff so that those below can simply carve up
the carcases. Humans are even better at the latter type of 'hunt' than
they are at the former.


To what extent do human hunters actually do this? How many habitats
have convenient cliffs located just on the edge of a grazing field?

Quite a few did, actually. Many places in the US West and High Plains
were suitable.
.
User: "r norman"

Title: Re: Free Choice, Evolution and Selfish Genes 16 Jul 2005 10:48:46 PM
On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:22:34 -0500, Duane Bozarth
<dpbozarth@swko.dot.net> wrote:

r norman wrote:


On 16 Jul 2005 12:33:09 -0700,

wrote:



Matt Silberstein wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:31:33 -0400, in alt.atheism , Deuteros
<deuteros@xrs.net> in <1xxdg5w534xb7$.dlg@sec12-crow.ultima.com>
wrote:

[snip]


Well ya see, Norm, it's like this. A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as >the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and >weakest ones at the back that are killed first.


Depends on whether the hunters are killing the stragglers or simply
driving the herd over a bluff so that those below can simply carve up
the carcases. Humans are even better at the latter type of 'hunt' than
they are at the former.


To what extent do human hunters actually do this? How many habitats
have convenient cliffs located just on the edge of a grazing field?


Quite a few did, actually. Many places in the US West and High Plains
were suitable.

That is exactly my point. With a whole globe you point to one
geographical location. And how long did humans hunt this way? Was it
long enough to influence the evolutionary pattern of buffalo?
(Actually, was it long enough so that the alternative, culling the
weakest, would have influenced the evolutionary pattern of buffalo?)
You snipped out many of my more appropriate questions. Basically, was
this pattern of hunting significant enough to be an evolutionary
factor in any significant number of prey animals? Or is it one
isolated example in a long history of worldwide hunting/gathering?
.
User: "Duane Bozarth"

Title: Re: Free Choice, Evolution and Selfish Genes 17 Jul 2005 09:30:50 AM
r norman wrote:


On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:22:34 -0500, Duane Bozarth
<dpbozarth@swko.dot.net> wrote:

....


To what extent do human hunters actually do this? How many habitats
have convenient cliffs located just on the edge of a grazing field?


Quite a few did, actually. Many places in the US West and High Plains
were suitable.


That is exactly my point. With a whole globe you point to one
geographical location. And how long did humans hunt this way? Was it
long enough to influence the evolutionary pattern of buffalo?
(Actually, was it long enough so that the alternative, culling the
weakest, would have influenced the evolutionary pattern of buffalo?)

You snipped out many of my more appropriate questions. Basically, was
this pattern of hunting significant enough to be an evolutionary
factor in any significant number of prey animals? Or is it one
isolated example in a long history of worldwide hunting/gathering?

Don't know...just pointing out is was certainly a fairly widely used
practice w/ the Plains Indians which happens to be what I know something
about...whether it was an "evolutionary" signficant is doubtful in my
mind as the numbers of hunters was small and the numbers taken pretty
insignificant. It's simply one pattern of using what was at hand as the
most expedient method to survive, along w/ all the others....
I have no data for how many animals were taken by one method over
another, and I doubt anyone does reliably...
.




User: "Matt Silberstein"

Title: Re: Free Choice, Evolution and Selfish Genes 21 Jul 2005 12:55:16 PM
On 16 Jul 2005 12:33:09 -0700, in alt.atheism ,

in <1121542389.508709.305170@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:



Matt Silberstein wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:31:33 -0400, in alt.atheism , Deuteros
<deuteros@xrs.net> in <1xxdg5w534xb7$.dlg@sec12-crow.ultima.com>
wrote:

If you are going to comment on a humorous sig, at least make sure it
is clear that you are commenting on a quote.

[snip]


Well ya see, Norm, it's like this. A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as

the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and
weakest ones at the back that are killed first.

Depends on whether the hunters are killing the stragglers or simply
driving the herd over a bluff so that those below can simply carve up
the carcases. Humans are even better at the latter type of 'hunt' than
they are at the former.

This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general
speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of
the weakest members. In much the same way, the human brain can only operate
as fast as the slowest brain cells. Excessive intake of alcohol, as we know,
kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain
cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker
brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. That's why
you always feel smarter after a few beers.


Same argument, but with fast cars and fast women. Result depends on
whether the danger is behind you or actually ahead of you.

Cliff on Cheers

--
Matt Silberstein
Well ya see, Norm, it's like this. A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members. In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Excessive intake of alcohol, as we know, kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. That's why you always feel smarter after a few beers.
Cliff on Cheers
.
User: "John S. Wilkins"

Title: Re: Free Choice, Evolution and Selfish Genes 21 Jul 2005 04:28:15 PM
Matt Silberstein wrote:

On 16 Jul 2005 12:33:09 -0700, in alt.atheism ,


in <1121542389.508709.305170@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:



Matt Silberstein wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:31:33 -0400, in alt.atheism , Deuteros
<deuteros@xrs.net> in <1xxdg5w534xb7$.dlg@sec12-crow.ultima.com>
wrote:


If you are going to comment on a humorous sig, at least make sure it
is clear that you are commenting on a quote.

Not enough beer...


[snip]


Well ya see, Norm, it's like this. A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as

the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and
weakest ones at the back that are killed first.

Depends on whether the hunters are killing the stragglers or simply
driving the herd over a bluff so that those below can simply carve up
the carcases. Humans are even better at the latter type of 'hunt' than
they are at the former.

This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general
speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of
the weakest members. In much the same way, the human brain can only operate
as fast as the slowest brain cells. Excessive intake of alcohol, as we know,
kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain
cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker
brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. That's why
you always feel smarter after a few beers.


Same argument, but with fast cars and fast women. Result depends on
whether the danger is behind you or actually ahead of you.

.




User: "Mark VandeWettering"

Title: Re: Free Choice, Evolution and Selfish Genes 14 Jul 2005 04:49:14 PM
["Followup-To:" header set to talk.origins.]
On 2005-07-14, Deuteros <deuteros@xrs.net> wrote:

It is generally agreed that we have evolved to maximize our
contribution to the gene pool.

Agreed among whom? That doesn't seem true.

Ignoring creationism for the moment,
this truth is self evident, if you consider that animals (or strictly
the genes which they carry) that were not good at contributing to the
gene pool would obviously die out in favor of those which were.

Your conclusion wouldn't seem to follow from your premise.

In 1492AD, each species on the planet, and each race of humans was
uniquely and tremendously adapted to their environment.

Uh, in what way? What is the significance in your mind of 1492?

Then the Americas were colonised. Since then, mass migration and
technology have changed our environment faster than our genetic
ability to adapt to that environment.

Because mass migrations didn't occur before then? I think you
have a very strange view of history.

The fact that 'we ourselves' caused the change is irrelevant. Yeast
fungi 'chooses' to produce the alcohol which eventually poisons it in
the fermentation process. Not all changes are in the genetic interests
of the entity that changed them.

Nor is this to say that the population has not exploded due to these
new conditions - yeast has not evolved to grow in sterile laboratory
test tubes, but its population grows very quickly in that environment.

I'm wondering where this is going, perhaps I should peek ahead.

So the human species has been thrust into the modern world, but
is actually evolved to something closer to the African savannah,
primitive Europe, or East Asia.

Mankind is an extraordinary creature - weaker than the similar sized
animals around him, much slower than those animals, with very poor
defences, no claws for defence or tree-climbing, teeth which are so
far set back in his head as no be almost useless for fighting, a
lack of fur which would see him freeze to death in a single night
in conditions which other animals would thrive, and an incredibly
fragile, and critical, organ on top of his head.

Mankind has been equipped with two things which help him survive
(and therefore reproduce) in a primitive world: dextrous hands, and
a logical mind. These, and these alone set this pathetic, naked and
shivering biped apart from all other animals.

Minds are much like computers,

Whenever I hear this claim, I can't help but think the claimant
knows very little about minds or computers, or more likely both.

and run programs to tell them what to
do. But man's mind was not programmed to maximize his reproductive
potential - it was merely a enhancement to the brains of the animals
it evolved from. And it was programmed to fill the basic animal needs
- water, food, security, shelter, sex, and social status.

And on the savannah this worked very well. And it adapted well to the
cold of Europe, and into Asia. A human who had water, food, shelter,
sex and social status did genetically better than humans who didn't
have these things.

And in fact, still do.

But man's new cognitive abilities were so powerful that it enabled
man not just to adapt to his environment but to change that very
environment. Formal education, television, motor cars, nine-to-five
jobs and international trade weren't on the 1492 agenda.

An animal's mind stuck inside the body of a man might be a plot
for a B-rate sci-fi film, but in a sense all of us have the mind
of a primitive in the lifestyle of a modern man. Our desires have
become somewhat divorced from genetic advantage, and our choices are
frequently not those which genetic success would suggest.

A full belly is a desirable goal for a human on the savannah, but
in the modern world can lead to obesity, and premature death. A
preference for sweet food is a good thing if the sweetest available
thing is ripe fruit, but in an age of boiled lollies it will rot your
teeth, and may make you mal-nourished.

And many of the primitive desires can be satisfied by effectively
'cheating' the system. Two technologies in particular have satisfied
sexual drives - the electric motor and the color photograph (or
more recently the video internet download). Even when sex is with
a partner, contraceptive technologies (and the ability to abort)
mean that sexual desires can be met without increasing genetic
success. Frequent sexual activity in the pre-industrialized time would
almost invariably result in having children, but in the modern age
we often observe just the opposite. The swinging bachelor recognizes
that his sexual desires would actually be hindered by the presence of
children, and chooses not to have them.

So man has become equipped with a huge reasoning capacity, which
has evolved because it gave him a genetic advantage in primitive
times. But man is still using that reasoning capacity to meet the the
goals which his ancestors needed to meet in order to survive - goals
which may not equate to genetic success in the modern world. The mind
is designed to maximize the number of descendents, but programmed to
find food, shelter, sex and social status.

Just as the yeast changes its environment and poisons itself, so too
some groups seem to be dying out. The population in poorer parts of
the world is still growing exponentially, but the birth rates in
rich western countries is well below replacement level. This is not
because of any lack of freedom to fulfill their genetic function,
but precisely because they do have the freedom to make their own
decisions, and to control their fertility.

Should we care? To answer that would involve a moral judgement about
what people's goals should be.

No, actually it is largely a pragmatic one about keeping people from
starving.

Libertarians generally avoid making moral judgements (beyond the
obligation to not steal). Some racists and white puritans seem to be
very alarmed about this. Others don't really care.

And what is the future? It depends on the world migration patterns,
but the future does not look white or red - it looks to be a mixture
of yellow, black, and brown, and the poorer the group, the faster they
are breeding.

Perhaps we should just bless the poor - for they shall inherit the
earth. Or maybe the common element is not poverty but ignorance, and
George Orwell will be proven correct: Ignorance is strength.

Anyway, it's something for Homo Superior to ponder as you exercise
your free will to prune yourself off the evolutionary tree.

Was there a point here? Or maybe a question?
.


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