| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"wbarwell" |
| Date: |
21 Feb 2006 03:40:40 PM |
| Object: |
Free Will and the Bible |
I was recently looking at the various
bible verses touching on Free Will
I sort of gathered them up and sorted them
out and I am posting them here for those
who might be mildly interested or curious.
-------------------------------------
There are several categories.
1. OT hardening of hearts by god.
Most notably the ten plagues of
Egypt of Exodus.
There are a few more, Joshua,
Deuteronomy.
Plus one verse from John 13, not OT.
2. Romans, Ephesians and a few other
verses from Paul. Romans is the most
overtly predestinarian.
3. Jesus preaches in parables to make
sure not all are saved. Why this is
so is never stated. Odd. Especially
for trinitarians.
-------------------------------
1.
Exodus 4:21-2
21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest
to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those
wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine
hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall
not let the people go.
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the
LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may
serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go,
God Hardens Phaoroahs Heart - Exodus 7 -12
Exodus 7:1-6
1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made
thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall
be thy prophet.
2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and
Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that
he send the children of Israel out of his land.
3 AND I WILL HARDEN PHAROAH' HEART, and multiply
my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
4 BUT PHAROAH SHALL NOT HEARKEN UNTO YOU, that I
may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine
armies, and my people the children of Israel, out
of the land of Egypt by great judgments.
5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD,
when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and
bring out the children of Israel from among them.
6 And Moses and Aaron did as the LORD commanded
them,..
-------------------
Exodus 7:11-14
11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the
sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also
did in like manner with their enchantments.
12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they
became serpents: but Aaron' rod swallowed up their
rods.
13 AND HE HARDENED PHAROAH' HEART, that he
hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
14 And the LORD said unto Moses, PHAROAH' HEART IS
HARDENED, he refuseth to let the people go.
Exodus 7:22
22 And the magicians of Egypt did so with their
enchantments: AND PHAROAH' HEART WAS HARDENED,
neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had
said.
-------------------
1. - Blood
Exodus 7:21-22
21 And the fish that was in the river died; and
the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink
of the water of the river; and there was blood
throughout all the land of Egypt.
22 And the magicians of Egypt did so with their
enchantments: AND PHAROAH' HEART WAS HARDENED,
neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had
said.
-------------------
2. - Frogs
Exodus 8:1:13-15
13 And the LORD did according to the word of
Moses; and the frogs died out of the houses, out
of the villages, and out of the fields.
14 And they gathered them together upon heaps: and
the land stank.
15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he
HARDENED HIS HEART, and hearkened not unto them;
AS THE LORD HAD SAID.
-------------------
3. - Lice
Exodus 8:17-19
17 And they did so; for Aaron stretched out his
hand with his rod, and smote the dust of the
earth, and it became lice in man, and in beast;
all the dust of the land became lice throughout
all the land of Egypt.
18 And the magicians did so with their
enchantments to bring forth lice, but they could
not: so there were lice upon man, and upon beast.
19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is
the finger of God: NAD PHAROAH' HEART WAS
HARDENED, and he hearkened not unto them; as the
LORD had said.
-------------------
4. - Flies
Exodus 8:29-32
29 And Moses said, Behold, I go out from thee, and
I will intreat the LORD that the swarms of flies
may depart from Pharaoh, from his servants, and
from his people, to morrow: but let not Pharaoh
deal deceitfully any more in not letting the
people go to sacrifice to the LORD.
30 And Moses went out from Pharaoh, and intreated
the LORD.
31 And the LORD did according to the word of
Moses; and he removed the swarms of flies from
Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people;
there remained not one.
32 AND PHAROAH HARDENED HIS HEART at this time
also, neither would he let the people go.
-------------------
5. - Murrain - Cattle disease
Exodus 8:6-7
6 And the LORD did that thing on the morrow, and
all the cattle of Egypt died: but of the cattle of
the children of Israel died not one.
7 And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one
of the cattle of the Israelites dead. AND THE
HEART OF PHAROAH WS HARDENED, and he did not let
the people go.
-------------------
6. - Boils
Exodus 8:9-12
9 And it shall become small dust in all the land
of Egypt, and shall be a boil breaking forth with
blains upon man, and upon beast, throughout all
the land of Egypt.
10 And they took ashes of the furnace, and stood
before Pharaoh; and Moses sprinkled it up toward
heaven; and it became a boil breaking forth with
blains upon man, and upon beast.
11 And the magicians could not stand before Moses
because of the boils; for the boil was upon the
magicians, and upon all the Egyptians.
12 AND THE LORD HARDENED PHAROAH' HEART, and
he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken
unto Moses.
-------------------
7. - Hail
Exodus 9:33-35
33 And Moses went out of the city from Pharaoh,
and spread abroad his hands unto the LORD: and the
thunders and hail ceased, and the rain was not
poured upon the earth.
34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail
and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more,
and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
35 AND THE LORD HARDENED PHAROAH' HEART, neither
would he let the children of Israel go; as the
LORD had spoken by Moses. (by Moses: Heb. by the
hand of Moses)
-------------------
8. - Locusts
Exodus 10:19020
19 And the LORD turned a mighty strong west wind,
which took away the locusts, and cast them into
the Red sea; there remained not one locust in all
the coasts of Egypt. (cast: Heb. fastened)
20 so that BUT THE LORD HARDENED PHAROAH' HEART,
he would not let the children of Israel go.
-------------------
9. - Darkness
Exodus 10:21-9
21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine
hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness
over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may
be felt. (even...: Heb. that one may feel
darkness)
22 And Moses stretched forth his hand toward
heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the
land of Egypt three days:
....
27 BUT THE LORD HARDENED PHAROAH' HEART, and he
would not let them go.
28 And Pharaoh said unto him, Get thee from me,
take heed to thyself, see my face no more; for in
that day thou seest my face thou shalt die.
29 And Moses said, Thou hast spoken well, I will
see thy face again no more.
-------------------
10. - Death of Egypt's firstborn
Exodus 11:4-10
4 And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About
midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt:
5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall
die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth
upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the
maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the
firstborn of beasts.
6 And there shall be a great cry throughout all
the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it,
nor shall be like it any more.
.......
9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not
hearken unto you; that my wonders may be
multiplied in the land of Egypt.
10 And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders
before Pharaoh: AND THE LORD HARDENED PHAROAH'
HEART, so that he would not let the children of
Israel go out of his land.
Exodus 12:29-30
29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD
smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from
the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne
unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the
dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
(dungeon: Heb. house of the pit)
30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all
his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was
a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house
where there was not one dead.
31 And he called for Moses and Aaron by night, and
said, Rise up, and get you forth from among my
people, both ye and the children of Israel; and
go, serve the LORD, as ye have said.
Exodus 12:41
41 And it came to pass at the end of the four
hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it
came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went
out from the land of Egypt.
--------------------
*************************************************
* GOD HARDENS HEARTS - FREE WILL IS NOT *
* REALLY IMPORTANT TO GOD. *
*************************************************
Deuteronomy 2:30-35
28 Thou shalt sell me meat for money, that I may
eat; and give me water for money, that I may
drink: only I will pass through on my feet;
29 (As the children of Esau which dwell in Seir,
and the Moabites which dwell in Ar, did unto me;)
until I shall pass over Jordan into the land which
the LORD our God giveth us.
30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass
by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit,
and made his heart obstinate, that he might
deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.
31 And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun
to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to
possess, that thou mayest inherit his land.
32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his
people, to fight at Jahaz.
33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us;
and we smote him, and his sons, and all his
people.
34 And we took all his cities at that time, and
utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the
little ones, of every city, we left none to
remain: (the men...: Heb. every city of men, and
women, and little ones)
35 Only the cattle we took for a prey unto
ourselves, and the spoil of the cities which we
took.
-----------------
Exodus 11:8-10
8 And all these thy servants shall come down unto
me, and bow down themselves unto me, saying, Get
thee out, and all the people that follow thee: and
after that I will go out. And he went out from
Pharaoh in a great anger. (that follow...: Heb.
that is at thy feet) (a great...: Heb. heat of
anger)
9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not
hearken unto you; that my wonders may be
multiplied in the land of Egypt.
10 And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders
before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh'
heart, so that he would not let the children of
Israel go out of his land.
Exodus 12:29-30
29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD
smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from
the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne
unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the
dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all
his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was
a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house
where there was not one dead.
-----------------
Joshua 11:18-21
18 Joshua made war a long time with all those
kings.
19 There was not a city that made peace with the
children of Israel, save the Hivites the
inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in
battle.
20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts,
that they should come against Israel in battle,
that he might destroy them utterly, and that they
might have no favour, but that he might destroy
them, as the LORD commanded Moses.
21 And at that time came Joshua, and cut off the
Anakims from the mountains, from Hebron, from
Debir, from Anab, and from all the mountains of
Judah, and from all the mountains of Israel:
Joshua destroyed them utterly with their cities.
-----------------
John 12:37-41
37 But though he had done so many miracles before
them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be
fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed
our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord
been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that
Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their
heart; that they should not see with their eyes,
nor understand with their heart, and be converted,
and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his
glory, and spake of him.
END
--------------------
2.
Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did
predestinate to be conformed to the image of his
Son, that he might be the firstborn among many
brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also
called: and whom he called, them he also
justified: and whom he justified, them he also
glorified.
Romans 9:13-38
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau
have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there
unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on
whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion
on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of
him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for
this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I
might shew my power in thee, and that my name
might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have
mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romans 11:5-10
5 Even so then at this present time also there is
a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works:
otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of
works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is
no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which
he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it,
and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them
the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not
see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto
this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a
snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a
recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not
see, and bow down their back alway.
-----------------------
John 12:37-41
37 But though he had done so many miracles before
them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be
fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed
our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord
been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that
Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their
heart; that they should not see with their eyes,
nor understand with their heart, and be converted,
and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his
glory, and spake of him.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that
are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the
minds of them which believe not, lest the light
of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the
image of God, should shine unto them.
Ephesians 1:1 - Ephesians 1:23
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of
God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to
the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father,
and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus
Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual
blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the
foundation of the world, that we should be holy
and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of
children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to
the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein
he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and
that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ
Jesus unto good works, which God hath before
ordained that we should walk in them.
...............
3.
*************************************************
* JESUS TEACHES IN PARABLE SO SOME *
* WILL NOT BE SAVED *
*************************************************
Mark 4:9-12
9 And he said unto them, "He that hath ears to
hear, let him hear.
10 And when he was alone, they that were about him
with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11 And he said unto them, "Unto you it is given to
know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto
them that are without, all these things are done
in parables:
12 "That seeing they may see, and not perceive;
and hearing they may hear, and not understand;
lest at any time they should be converted, and
their sins should be forgiven them.
---------------
Luke 8:9-10
9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might
this parable be?
10 And he said, "Unto you it is given to know the
mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in
parables; that seeing they might not see, and
hearing they might not understand.
----------------
Matthew 13:9-15
9 "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why
speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, "Because it is
given unto you to know the mysteries of the
kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 "For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and
he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath
not, from him shall be taken away even that he
hath.
13 "Therefore speak I to them in parables: because
they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not,
neither do they understand.
14 "And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of
Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and
shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and
shall not perceive:
15 "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and
their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes
they have closed; lest at any time they should see
with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and
should understand with the their heart, and
should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 "But blessed are your eyes, for they see:
and your ears, for they hear.
17 "For verily I say unto you, That many
prophets and righteous men have desired to
see those things which ye see, and have not
seen them; and to hear those things which ye
hear, and have not heard them.
END
----------------------------------------------------
--
"If I saw a man beating a tied up horse, I could
not prove it was wrong, but I'd know it was wrong."
- Mark Twain
Cheerful Charlie
.
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Free Will and the Bible |
21 Feb 2006 06:21:49 PM |
|
|
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:11vn1vs1uvsfa75@corp.supernews.com...
I was recently looking at the various
bible verses touching on Free Will
I sort of gathered them up and sorted them
out and I am posting them here for those
who might be mildly interested or curious.
How about the less direct examples?
For instance, didn't the Jesus character say one of his disciples would deny
him three times? And despite the disciple's best efforts and deep investment
in the Jesus character, he ended up denying the Jesus exactly as described?
This is an example of a person being told specifically what he was going to
do, bent all his efforts to do otherwise, and found it impossible to do
otherwise. This clearly indicates that the god character could tell you what
you were going to do on a moment to moment basis, and you could not do
otherwise.
No matter what the stories in the bible say about free will directly, some
deny it utterly by implication.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
| User: "wbarwell" |
|
| Title: Re: Free Will and the Bible |
21 Feb 2006 09:52:30 PM |
|
|
Denis Loubet wrote:
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:11vn1vs1uvsfa75@corp.supernews.com...
I was recently looking at the various
bible verses touching on Free Will
I sort of gathered them up and sorted them
out and I am posting them here for those
who might be mildly interested or curious.
How about the less direct examples?
For instance, didn't the Jesus character say one of his disciples would
deny him three times? And despite the disciple's best efforts and deep
investment in the Jesus character, he ended up denying the Jesus
exactly as described?
This is an example of a person being told specifically what he was
going to do, bent all his efforts to do otherwise, and found it
impossible to do otherwise. This clearly indicates that the god
character could tell you what you were going to do on a moment to
moment basis, and you could not do otherwise.
No matter what the stories in the bible say about free will directly,
some deny it utterly by implication.
A good point here.
I am sure there are a lot of other little un's I over
looked. Basically, I was looking at the Romans stuff,
and the hardening of hearts nonsense.
Basically a lot of Christians say we have free will,
sin is our fault thusly. But we don't.
Peter had no free will here, nor did Judas, I have to hunt
down those claims Jesus knew who would betray him too.
Plus claims he knew he was to be crucified.
We have the whole prophecy thing, but unfortunately,
no real prophecies worth mentioning.
--
"If I saw a man beating a tied up horse, I could
not prove it was wrong, but I'd know it was wrong."
- Mark Twain
Cheerful Charlie
.
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Free Will and the Bible |
21 Feb 2006 10:40:41 PM |
|
|
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:11vnnoss9f90o36@corp.supernews.com...
Denis Loubet wrote:
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:11vn1vs1uvsfa75@corp.supernews.com...
I was recently looking at the various
bible verses touching on Free Will
I sort of gathered them up and sorted them
out and I am posting them here for those
who might be mildly interested or curious.
How about the less direct examples?
For instance, didn't the Jesus character say one of his disciples would
deny him three times? And despite the disciple's best efforts and deep
investment in the Jesus character, he ended up denying the Jesus
exactly as described?
This is an example of a person being told specifically what he was
going to do, bent all his efforts to do otherwise, and found it
impossible to do otherwise. This clearly indicates that the god
character could tell you what you were going to do on a moment to
moment basis, and you could not do otherwise.
No matter what the stories in the bible say about free will directly,
some deny it utterly by implication.
A good point here.
I am sure there are a lot of other little un's I over
looked. Basically, I was looking at the Romans stuff,
and the hardening of hearts nonsense.
Basically a lot of Christians say we have free will,
sin is our fault thusly. But we don't.
Peter had no free will here, nor did Judas, I have to hunt
down those claims Jesus knew who would betray him too.
Plus claims he knew he was to be crucified.
We have the whole prophecy thing, but unfortunately,
no real prophecies worth mentioning.
I just can't comprehend how they can insist we have free will in the same
universe in which there supposedly exists prophesy.
The very nature of prophesy is that once it's uttered, nothing can change
the course of events. No amount of will, free or otherwise, can change
anything. Of what possible use is free will if it so obviously has no effect
on events whatsoever?
These people are deliberately stupid.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "wbarwell" |
|
| Title: Re: Free Will and the Bible |
22 Feb 2006 03:15:08 PM |
|
|
Denis Loubet wrote:
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:11vnnoss9f90o36@corp.supernews.com...
Denis Loubet wrote:
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:11vn1vs1uvsfa75@corp.supernews.com...
I was recently looking at the various
bible verses touching on Free Will
I sort of gathered them up and sorted them
out and I am posting them here for those
who might be mildly interested or curious.
How about the less direct examples?
For instance, didn't the Jesus character say one of his disciples
would deny him three times? And despite the disciple's best efforts
and deep investment in the Jesus character, he ended up denying the
Jesus exactly as described?
This is an example of a person being told specifically what he was
going to do, bent all his efforts to do otherwise, and found it
impossible to do otherwise. This clearly indicates that the god
character could tell you what you were going to do on a moment to
moment basis, and you could not do otherwise.
No matter what the stories in the bible say about free will directly,
some deny it utterly by implication.
A good point here.
I am sure there are a lot of other little un's I over
looked. Basically, I was looking at the Romans stuff,
and the hardening of hearts nonsense.
Basically a lot of Christians say we have free will,
sin is our fault thusly. But we don't.
Peter had no free will here, nor did Judas, I have to hunt
down those claims Jesus knew who would betray him too.
Plus claims he knew he was to be crucified.
We have the whole prophecy thing, but unfortunately,
no real prophecies worth mentioning.
I just can't comprehend how they can insist we have free will in the
same universe in which there supposedly exists prophesy.
Its called compatibilism.
The theological claim is, there is no incompatibility
that god has perfect forknowledge of the future and man
has free will.
Its basically intellectual dishonesty of a very deep sort.
Basically, if one accepts following Augustine, man has free
will, one must deal (or not deal) with the problem of
god's foreknowledge of the future and free will. Basically
what they do is the equivalent of saying 2 + 2 = 5.
The next step is to bury the issue in bad quibbling,
hair splitting rhetoric.
The golden boy of the moment if Alvin Plantinga who has
elevated Augustine's free will defense to the premiere
apologetic against Atheists attacking the concept of god
via the Problem of Evil, which was given a boost with the
reprinting of R.L. Mackie's essay on god and the problem
of Evil of 1954 in about 1978.
Since Plantiga started this about 25 years ago, many
goofballs in the world of theology hasve asserted
Plantinga has solved once and for all the problem of Evil.
This stuff leaches downwards into pulpits and popular
books of apologism into empty little heads.
Incompatibilism is teh position (which I hold) that god
can never be surprised and knows all, being omniscient.
At that point, knowing what the future holds, he must
personally make a decision as to what sort of Universe
he creates when he creates.
If he knows he is about to create a world that has an
evil man 13 billon years hence, he must either make
that man evil, or make a Universe that does not have
that evil man in it, or makes him good rather than
evil.
If he fails to act, he is evil, and acts of ommision
do not fit his description of just, good or merciful.
Since either way, we have no free will, all our acts are
pridicated by the world god creates, he loses nothing
by making man good.
This is the point theology knowingly ignores.
Plantinga acknowledges his free wil ldefence is not a
theodicy, an explanation of evil, but is a defence against
Mackie's assertions, an apology. Its a foot in the door
defence for theology.
Plantinga admits he accepts orthodox basic claims about
god, omniscient, omnipotent et al.
Thus all of this is simply a deperate defence against
hard atheism. In the end it does not work. But
like lesser apologists telling us the contradictions
of the gospels prove nothing, everybody pretends
this nonsense is meaningful.
Hordes of apologists now follow Plantinga who is
merely following Augustine. This is not to say
Plantinga was the first or only one who has done
this, but he is now the most well known and authoritatic.
Google Plantinga and you wil find hundreds of syllabuses
and course outlines where Plantinga's works are used
in discussion of problems of free will or problems
of evil.
All ignore the parts of the Bible I listed.
And ignore the implications thereof. Augustine
was indeed attempting to finesse such problems
himself.
The very nature of prophesy is that once it's uttered, nothing can
change the course of events. No amount of will, free or otherwise, can
change anything. Of what possible use is free will if it so obviously
has no effect on events whatsoever?
These people are deliberately stupid.
--
"If I saw a man beating a tied up horse, I could
not prove it was wrong, but I'd know it was wrong."
- Mark Twain
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "pan" |
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| Title: Re: Free Will and the Bible |
22 Feb 2006 03:23:34 AM |
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On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 22:40:41 -0600, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com>
wrote:
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:11vnnoss9f90o36@corp.supernews.com...
Denis Loubet wrote:
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:11vn1vs1uvsfa75@corp.supernews.com...
I was recently looking at the various
bible verses touching on Free Will
I sort of gathered them up and sorted them
out and I am posting them here for those
who might be mildly interested or curious.
How about the less direct examples?
For instance, didn't the Jesus character say one of his disciples would
deny him three times? And despite the disciple's best efforts and deep
investment in the Jesus character, he ended up denying the Jesus
exactly as described?
This is an example of a person being told specifically what he was
going to do, bent all his efforts to do otherwise, and found it
impossible to do otherwise. This clearly indicates that the god
character could tell you what you were going to do on a moment to
moment basis, and you could not do otherwise.
No matter what the stories in the bible say about free will directly,
some deny it utterly by implication.
A good point here.
I am sure there are a lot of other little un's I over
looked. Basically, I was looking at the Romans stuff,
and the hardening of hearts nonsense.
Basically a lot of Christians say we have free will,
sin is our fault thusly. But we don't.
Peter had no free will here, nor did Judas, I have to hunt
down those claims Jesus knew who would betray him too.
Plus claims he knew he was to be crucified.
We have the whole prophecy thing, but unfortunately,
no real prophecies worth mentioning.
I just can't comprehend how they can insist we have free will in the same
universe in which there supposedly exists prophesy.
The very nature of prophesy is that once it's uttered, nothing can change
the course of events. No amount of will, free or otherwise, can change
anything. Of what possible use is free will if it so obviously has no effect
on events whatsoever?
These people are deliberately stupid.
I think they just consider the existence of prophesy and free-will
'a given'.
Since they believe that prophecy and free-will *have to* exist, they
see nothing wrong with the mental gymnastics they have to go through
to *try* to make the two fit together
pan
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Free Will and the Bible |
24 Feb 2006 03:04:35 PM |
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On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 22:40:41 -0600, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:
I just can't comprehend how they can insist we have free will in the same
universe in which there supposedly exists prophesy.
You're not even trying to comprehend.
The very nature of prophesy is that once it's uttered, nothing can change
the course of events. No amount of will, free or otherwise, can change
anything. Of what possible use is free will if it so obviously has no effect
on events whatsoever?
These people are deliberately stupid.
Strange, that's exactly what we say about you.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Free Will and the Bible |
24 Feb 2006 03:03:34 PM |
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On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 21:52:30 -0600, wbarwell <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Basically a lot of Christians say we have free will,
sin is our fault thusly. But we don't.
Peter had no free will here, nor did Judas, I have to hunt
down those claims Jesus knew who would betray him too.
Peter had all free will. Jesus didn't tell him what he was going to do, but
what he did. The same with Judas.
Plus claims he knew he was to be crucified.
No, not "was to be", but "was".
Your whole story is absurdly weak, barwell.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Free Will and the Bible |
24 Feb 2006 03:00:20 PM |
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On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 18:21:49 -0600, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:
This is an example of a person being told specifically what he was going to
do, bent all his efforts to do otherwise, and found it impossible to do
otherwise. This clearly indicates that the god character could tell you what
you were going to do on a moment to moment basis, and you could not do
otherwise.
No, not what you are going to do, but what you did. He knows, and you can't do
differently than you did.
Isn't God great.
No matter what the stories in the bible say about free will directly, some
deny it utterly by implication.
Unless you have a little intelligence, then it's not so hard.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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