| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Andres64" |
| Date: |
24 May 2006 07:10:22 PM |
| Object: |
Free will as an argument against God... |
I don't know if if ever seen or heard anyone argue that if we have free
will, then there can not be a God that interferes. Because if God were
to interfere, then He would be robbing us of our free will.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Free will as an argument against God... |
25 May 2006 12:13:16 AM |
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Andres64 wrote:
I don't know if if ever seen or heard anyone argue that if we have free
will, then there can not be a God that interferes. Because if God were
to interfere, then He would be robbing us of our free will.
Can there be free will at all to begin with?
*****************************************************
OMNISCIENCE VERSUS CREATORHOOD OF GOD
God is defined as creator of all in most religions.
And god is claimed to be omniscient, all knowing.
A. God is said by theologians to have created the Universe
and all in that Universe.
B. God is omniscient, all knowing, he knows all that is in
the Universe and he knows the future state of the Universe
and the state of all its contents as he contemplates creating
the Universe.
C. Augustine claimed that god is sovereign over time and thus
must be outside and transcedent over time. To god, past,
present and future are all one thing to god who thus knows all
that existed, exists and will exists as time is an illusion
to god. Boethius a century later also stated this.
D. If god creates a Universe, he will know that in 13 billion
years this Universe will have a man named John Smith in it
because he is omniscient, all knowing.
E. If John Smith is good and saved, or evil and damned, in
the distant future, God will know whether John Smith is
to be good or evil.
F. God knows that the Universe created in its present state will
have a John Smith, god must then contemplate the future state
of Smith and decide if he will tolerate an evil Smith or if
god will create the Universe in another manner that will have
a good Smith who is saved in preference to a Smith who is evil
and damned.
G. Thus, Smith will be good or evil only because of a specific
personal and will choice made solely by god who must make
a choice faced with the knowledge of the future and implement
his choice of what the future Smith will be, good or evil.
H. Since this all happens as god contemplates creation of the
Universe, Smith has no say in whether he is to be good or evil
as he does not exist yet and cannot influence god's choice.
I. If Smith is evil, then evil exists solely because of a choice
made by god. In fact all moral evil done by creations of god
will be evil and do evil only because of personal and willful
creations of god allowing evil acts to be done, by direct
decision of god.
J. If evil exists in a world with an omniscient, creator god,
it is solely and only because god allows evil.
K. If evil exists solely because of personal choices of god,
god then is not as defined, omnibenevolent. Nor merciful,
just, or similar good qualities.
L. Man and any other sentient being in such a Universe cannot
have any free will, not even in principle. A Universe with
a god that creates all, and knows all precludes free will for
all beings god creates in the strongest possible manner.
M. This is precisely because knowing all and faced with
what will be, god at all times must make a personal choice
to actually create what he is contemplating creating with
full knowledge and acceptance of what his creation will
entail, or he must change his creation to conform to his
wishes for the type of world he wants. Thus free will is
impossible, only god's will can be expressed in a
Universe where god is creator of all and omniscient.
***********************************************************
--
"Its the hit dog what yelps."
- Mark Twain
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: Free will as an argument against God... |
25 May 2006 02:00:47 AM |
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On 24 May 2006 17:10:22 -0700, "Andres64" <andresc64@excite.com>
wrote:
I don't know if if ever seen or heard anyone argue that if we have free
will, then there can not be a God that interferes. Because if God were
to interfere, then He would be robbing us of our free will.
Why does anyone even feel that there's a need to argue against God?
It's up to the theists to prove there is one, not up to us to prove
there isn't.
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