| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"J Young" |
| Date: |
20 Apr 2005 08:44:10 AM |
| Object: |
Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
Germans should feel nothing but pride. The selection of Pope Benedict
XVI will establish Germany as a nation of peace. The past is dead and
buried.
http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=5703136&cKey=1113996021000
Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope
BERLIN - Germany reacted uncertainly on Wednesday to the choice of a
native son as Pope, as pride mingled with doubts that the
arch-conservative theologian reflected its self-image as secular,
liberal and progressive.
Emotions ranged from joy to outright dismay as the country digested the
news that Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, a former archbishop of Munich, had
been elected Pope Benedict XVI.
"We are the Pope! It's a thousand-year sensation!" blared best-selling
tabloid Bild, removing the usual bare-breasted model from page one in
deference to the new pontiff.
But irreverent left-wing daily Tageszeitung took the opposite view,
blacking out the entire front page apart from the words: "Joseph
Ratzinger new Pope. Oh, my God!"
The split reflected doubts, in Germany and elsewhere, over whether the
Church's chief guardian of traditional doctrine for the past 23 years
is charismatic, vigorous and open enough to tackle the social
challenges of the 21st century.
Ratzinger was elected Tuesday -- at 78, the oldest man to ascend the
papal throne for three centuries.
"In my opinion the man is simply too old for this office," said Agnes
Straubinger, a resident of Munich in Ratzinger's native Bavaria. "How
will the Catholic Church ever progress if it always bases itself in the
past?"
The new pope's own brother, Georg, told ARD television he was taken
aback by the news.
"I was shocked, that's right ... I'd thought that his age and not very
stable health were a reason for the cardinals to choose someone else,"
he said.
That the spiritual and moral authority of the papacy should be wielded
by a German, 60 years after the Nazi Holocaust and World War II, is an
idea that would once have been unthinkable.
"Many did not believe such a thing possible after the terrible events
which began from Germany and which can still be felt," German Catholic
Cardinal Karl Lehmann said.
"It is therefore an important sign of Germany's ultimate return into
the worldwide community of peoples which is also reflected in the
Catholic Church ... This can give our country heart in many respects."
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
20 Apr 2005 10:20:52 AM |
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Don't forget - staunch Lutherans today are probably as close to Catholicism
as any Protestant sect. It used to be Anglican, but with the women priest
thing they dropped out of the race.
So maybe Ratzinger will reel in the Lutherans and undo Protestantism from
its origins.
Doctrine *is* his specialty, remember.
BAM
"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1114004650.228158.263620@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Germans should feel nothing but pride. The selection of Pope Benedict
XVI will establish Germany as a nation of peace. The past is dead and
buried.
http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=5703136&cKey=1113996021000
Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope
BERLIN - Germany reacted uncertainly on Wednesday to the choice of a
native son as Pope, as pride mingled with doubts that the
arch-conservative theologian reflected its self-image as secular,
liberal and progressive.
Emotions ranged from joy to outright dismay as the country digested the
news that Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, a former archbishop of Munich, had
been elected Pope Benedict XVI.
"We are the Pope! It's a thousand-year sensation!" blared best-selling
tabloid Bild, removing the usual bare-breasted model from page one in
deference to the new pontiff.
But irreverent left-wing daily Tageszeitung took the opposite view,
blacking out the entire front page apart from the words: "Joseph
Ratzinger new Pope. Oh, my God!"
The split reflected doubts, in Germany and elsewhere, over whether the
Church's chief guardian of traditional doctrine for the past 23 years
is charismatic, vigorous and open enough to tackle the social
challenges of the 21st century.
Ratzinger was elected Tuesday -- at 78, the oldest man to ascend the
papal throne for three centuries.
"In my opinion the man is simply too old for this office," said Agnes
Straubinger, a resident of Munich in Ratzinger's native Bavaria. "How
will the Catholic Church ever progress if it always bases itself in the
past?"
The new pope's own brother, Georg, told ARD television he was taken
aback by the news.
"I was shocked, that's right ... I'd thought that his age and not very
stable health were a reason for the cardinals to choose someone else,"
he said.
That the spiritual and moral authority of the papacy should be wielded
by a German, 60 years after the Nazi Holocaust and World War II, is an
idea that would once have been unthinkable.
"Many did not believe such a thing possible after the terrible events
which began from Germany and which can still be felt," German Catholic
Cardinal Karl Lehmann said.
"It is therefore an important sign of Germany's ultimate return into
the worldwide community of peoples which is also reflected in the
Catholic Church ... This can give our country heart in many respects."
.
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| User: "robert bowman" |
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| Title: Re: Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
20 Apr 2005 09:22:26 PM |
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bam wrote:
Don't forget - staunch Lutherans today are probably as close to
Catholicism as any Protestant sect. It used to be Anglican, but with the
women priest thing they dropped out of the race.
The last I knew, trying to work out liturgical reforms with the Lutherans
stalled out when the Lutherans had to go home and figure out just what
their liturgy is.
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
20 Apr 2005 01:28:26 PM |
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bam wrote:
Don't forget - staunch Lutherans today are probably as close to
Catholicism
as any Protestant sect. It used to be Anglican, but with the women
priest
thing they dropped out of the race.
The Lutherans also ordain women. The senior pastor at my mother's
Lutheran church is a woman.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
20 Apr 2005 11:25:00 PM |
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"skyeyes" <skyeyes@dakotacom.net> wrote in message
news:1114021706.891771.317120@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
bam wrote:
Don't forget - staunch Lutherans today are probably as close to
Catholicism
as any Protestant sect. It used to be Anglican, but with the women
priest
thing they dropped out of the race.
The Lutherans also ordain women. The senior pastor at my mother's
Lutheran church is a woman.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
Splinter groups - I believe the Missouri Synod forbids it.
BAM
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| User: "MJSD" |
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| Title: Re: Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
23 Apr 2005 09:48:28 AM |
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"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in news:rUF9e.110527
$wo1.2202@bignews6.bellsouth.net:
"skyeyes" <skyeyes@dakotacom.net> wrote in message
news:1114021706.891771.317120@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
bam wrote:
Don't forget - staunch Lutherans today are probably as close to
Catholicism
as any Protestant sect. It used to be Anglican, but with the women
priest
thing they dropped out of the race.
The Lutherans also ordain women. The senior pastor at my mother's
Lutheran church is a woman.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
Splinter groups - I believe the Missouri Synod forbids it.
BAM
Splinter groups? The Missouri Synod is not THE Lutheran Church. Martin
Luther didn't nail the 95 Thesis to the door of some church in
Wittenberg, Missouri.
There are many different Lutheran Churches around the world who don't all
agree with the same policies. The Lutheran Church of Germany is called
the EKD, or Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland. They have a reputation
for being even more liberal than German progressive Catholics.
The main body in America is the ECLA or Evangelical Lutheran Church in
America, they're even larger than the Missouri Synod, they ordain women
pastors and are tolerant of homosexuals.
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| User: "Meteorite Debris" |
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| Title: Re: Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
20 Apr 2005 11:17:04 PM |
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On 20 Apr 2005 11:28:26 -0700 the ET form known as
skyeyes<skyeyes@dakotacom.net> sent a radio signal across the vast
expanse of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.
bam wrote:
Don't forget - staunch Lutherans today are probably as close to
Catholicism
as any Protestant sect. It used to be Anglican, but with the women
priest
thing they dropped out of the race.
The Lutherans also ordain women. The senior pastor at my mother's
Lutheran church is a woman.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
One of my cousins lives in Walla Walla in the southern highlands of
NSW which is a Lutheran town where German used to be widely
understood. She tells me it was only a few years ago that men and
women were allowed to sit together in the church instead of sitting
segregated on different sides.
--
rot13
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2009
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/
Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism
Sunday: A day given over by Americans to wishing that they themselves
were dead and in Heaven, and that their neighbors were dead and in
Hell.
-Mencken
.
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| User: "Dom" |
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| Title: Re: Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
20 Apr 2005 01:48:27 PM |
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skyeyes wrote:
bam wrote:
Don't forget - staunch Lutherans today are probably as close to
Catholicism as any Protestant sect. It used to be Anglican, but
with the women priest thing they dropped out of the race.
The Lutherans also ordain women. The senior pastor at my mother's
Lutheran church is a woman.
The only real obstacle to the ordination of women is the further rift
that it would cause between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, which
are even more intransigent on this issue. The claim that the apostles
were male and therefore women cannot be ordained is pure theological
sophistry.
For example, Pliny's letter to Trajan, posted at:
http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/Classics/plinytrajan.html
demonstates clearly that "Deaconesses (ministrae)" had a central role
when the Christians met on Sunday "before dawn, and singing
responsively a hymn to Christ as to God, swearing with a holy oath not
to commit any crime, never to steal or commit robbery, commit adultery,
fail a sworn agreement or refuse to return a sum left in trust. When
all this was finished, it was their custom to go their separate ways,
and later re-assemble to take food of an ordinary and simple kind."
Domenico Rosa
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
20 Apr 2005 11:15:11 PM |
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"Dom" <DRosa@teikyopost.edu> wrote
The claim that the apostles
were male and therefore women cannot be ordained is pure theological
sophistry.
Do you think that's the sole argument?
BAM
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| User: "Meteorite Debris" |
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| Title: Re: Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
20 Apr 2005 11:20:47 PM |
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On 20 Apr 2005 11:48:27 -0700 the ET form known as
Dom<DRosa@teikyopost.edu> sent a radio signal across the vast expanse
of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.
skyeyes wrote:
bam wrote:
Don't forget - staunch Lutherans today are probably as close to
Catholicism as any Protestant sect. It used to be Anglican, but
with the women priest thing they dropped out of the race.
The Lutherans also ordain women. The senior pastor at my mother's
Lutheran church is a woman.
The only real obstacle to the ordination of women is the further rift
that it would cause between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, which
are even more intransigent on this issue. The claim that the apostles
were male and therefore women cannot be ordained is pure theological
sophistry.
For example, Pliny's letter to Trajan, posted at:
http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/Classics/plinytrajan.html
demonstates clearly that "Deaconesses (ministrae)" had a central role
when the Christians met on Sunday "before dawn, and singing
responsively a hymn to Christ as to God, swearing with a holy oath not
to commit any crime, never to steal or commit robbery, commit adultery,
fail a sworn agreement or refuse to return a sum left in trust. When
all this was finished, it was their custom to go their separate ways,
and later re-assemble to take food of an ordinary and simple kind."
Domenico Rosa
It is forgotten that Jesus and his apostles were Jewish so if the male
only apostles argument is followed then all priests should be Jews.
None of them should have blue eyes.
--
rot13
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2009
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/
Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism
Sunday: A day given over by Americans to wishing that they themselves
were dead and in Heaven, and that their neighbors were dead and in
Hell.
-Mencken
.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
20 Apr 2005 01:21:27 PM |
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bam wrote:
Don't forget - staunch Lutherans today are probably as close to
Catholicism as any Protestant sect. It used to be Anglican, but with
the women priest thing they dropped out of the race.
Maybe. According to what I was taught in high school the Anglican preists
are not *real* priests only because they stopped ordaining priests when they
split and did not start again until after the last real (i.e. catholic)
priest died.
If this is not true and a priest that had been RC started the tradition
again then the Anglicans, women and all are the same as Roman Catholic
priests.
It works pretty much the same as the "Once saved, always saved" doctrine.
So maybe Ratzinger will reel in the Lutherans and undo Protestantism
from its origins.
Doctrine *is* his specialty, remember.
BAM
<snip>
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| User: "Paul Duca" |
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| Title: Re: Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
21 Apr 2005 01:57:19 AM |
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in article Mpu9e.87270$vL3.43396@bignews4.bellsouth.net, bam at
mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net wrote on 4/20/05 11:20 AM:
Don't forget - staunch Lutherans today are probably as close to Catholicism
as any Protestant sect. It used to be Anglican, but with the women priest
thing they dropped out of the race.
So maybe Ratzinger will reel in the Lutherans and undo Protestantism from
its origins.
And Catholic God will give them...HOW much ***** in return?
Paul
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
20 Apr 2005 09:07:29 AM |
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J Young <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in alt.atheism
"It is therefore an important sign of Germany's ultimate return into
the worldwide community of peoples which is also reflected in the
Catholic Church ... This can give our country heart in many respects."
I wonder how the German Jews feel about this?
Surely there are some around here, since this is cross-posted to
soc.culture.jewish.
I'm actually not sure how most German Jews feel about the Catholic
Church in the first place... Do they hate it? Would they like to see
it done away with?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
20 Apr 2005 09:59:36 AM |
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"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:49oc6194r1i7pahcf0889ol63fq6fka0t0@4ax.com...
J Young <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in alt.atheism
"It is therefore an important sign of Germany's ultimate return into
the worldwide community of peoples which is also reflected in the
Catholic Church ... This can give our country heart in many respects."
I wonder how the German Jews feel about this?
Surely there are some around here, since this is cross-posted to
soc.culture.jewish.
Nope, it's just "JYoung" beingh is usual stupid self.
I'm actually not sure how most German Jews feel about the Catholic
Church in the first place... Do they hate it? Would they like to see
it done away with?
Oh, no - just trouble-making trolls.
All of them.
Susan
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Alt.monkey.fart" |
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| Title: Re: Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
20 Apr 2005 09:16:28 AM |
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I don't think german jews exist anymore buddy
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| User: "Add 3 Inches To Your Clayton In Just 5 Days" |
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| Title: Re: Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
20 Apr 2005 08:53:22 PM |
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"Alt.monkey.fart" <Nuke_dukem@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:1114006588.564429.279600@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I don't think german jews exist anymore buddy
Of course they do...you don't think any of the survivors have returned to
their former homes in the last 60 years? In fact there's a new movie about
the German Jewish community!
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
20 Apr 2005 09:54:37 AM |
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Alt.monkey.fart <Nuke_dukem@shaw.ca> wrote in alt.atheism
I don't think german jews exist anymore buddy
Are you kidding?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "robert bowman" |
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| Title: Re: Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
20 Apr 2005 09:19:56 PM |
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Alt.monkey.fart wrote:
I don't think german jews exist anymore buddy
The efficiency of the NSDAP was greatly overstated.
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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
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| User: "Riain Barton/ריעין ברתון" |
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| Title: Re: Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
21 Apr 2005 01:41:33 AM |
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Wrong as usual...
Yet more proof of the failure of the Canadian Education System
"Alt.monkey.fart" <Nuke_dukem@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:1114006588.564429.279600@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
:I don't think german jews exist anymore buddy
:
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| User: "Paul Duca" |
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| Title: Re: Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
21 Apr 2005 01:59:04 AM |
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in article 1114004650.228158.263620@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com, J Young at
youngopinions@aol.com wrote on 4/20/05 9:44 AM:
Germans should feel nothing but pride.
Much like they did at certain times for that nice man who promised
to get rid of those filthy Jews....
Paul
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
21 Apr 2005 09:10:56 AM |
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"Paul Duca" <p.duca@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:BE8CC778.1A091%p.duca@comcast.net...
in article 1114004650.228158.263620@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com, J Young
at
youngopinions@aol.com wrote on 4/20/05 9:44 AM:
Germans should feel nothing but pride.
Much like they did at certain times for that nice man who promised
to get rid of those filthy Jews....
I see you're just overjoyed with everything that's going on, Paul.
BAM
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| User: "Paul Duca" |
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| Title: Re: Germans Feel Both Pride and Doubts Over Pope |
23 Apr 2005 07:56:07 AM |
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in article auO9e.103000$vL3.64565@bignews4.bellsouth.net, bam at
mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net wrote on 4/21/05 10:10 AM:
"Paul Duca" <p.duca@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:BE8CC778.1A091%p.duca@comcast.net...
in article 1114004650.228158.263620@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com, J Young
at
youngopinions@aol.com wrote on 4/20/05 9:44 AM:
Germans should feel nothing but pride.
Much like they did at certain times for that nice man who promised
to get rid of those filthy Jews....
I see you're just overjoyed with everything that's going on, Paul.
So is my mother...but like you, she's obedient and accepts whatever
the churchs dishes up with no complaint.
Bam, you are more than welcome to take my place in Heaven, and be
the simpering, clinging mama's boy SHE wants in a son.
Paul
--
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