| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Niels van der Linden" |
| Date: |
19 May 2005 04:01:03 PM |
| Object: |
Getting tired of it |
Who here's getting tired of all of it?
Considering a big bang and a universe such as ours, the following are
natural (or 'normal'):
Forming of stars, planets, moons, solar systems, galaxies, etc., their
'lifetimes' and their 'deaths'.
Thinking things are static in the universe is utterly false. It's as dynamic
as it can possibly get. Just considering the lives the planets in our solar
system have behind them is amazing.
If you look at our cozy planet, life appeared very fast (relatively) after
it's creation. Mars has also gone through a moderate state and some moons of
Jupiter are reveiling things that give extraterrestrial-life scientists wet
dreams round the clock. Mass extinctions are also a common thing on our
planet. We have multiple recordings of such. The only thing that makes us
special is that we might actually see it coming.
The appearance of intelligent life also seems inevitable. Once an animal
comes along that incidentally has limbs that were used for something else
before, but with a slight modification can use things as tools and even
modify them, and also has an apt for communication, the path to ... sapien
(knowing ...) seems like a walk in the park.
Now what about religion? Well, I don't think there has ever been a culture
without it. How hard is it to grasp? When you don't understand the largest
part of things happening in your every day, of course you invent stuff to
attribute it to. We do it *all the time*.
However;
Today, we understand the things happening in our every day, we understand
how religions naturally appeared, we understand the rising of intelligent
life and the natural occurence of life on a planet, the natural lifetimes of
planets, stars, solar systems and galaxies.
Now can we please put the silly religions behind us. There is no afterlife,
there is no heaven or hell, no creator, no god. If you can just realize
that, we can try to work together on this cozy little planet of ours.
Niels
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| User: "Niels van der Linden" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
29 May 2005 10:47:20 PM |
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She's spiritual.
Do you think spirituality is the same thing as theism?
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| User: "Dylan" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
29 May 2005 11:04:18 PM |
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Niels van der Linden wrote:
She's spiritual.
Do you think spirituality is the same thing as theism?
Do I have to answer?
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| User: "ArWeGod" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
06 Jun 2005 09:38:43 PM |
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"Dylan" <desertmountainholy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1117425858.522364.222990@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Niels van der Linden wrote:
She's spiritual.
Do you think spirituality is the same thing as theism?
Do I have to answer?
Do you have an answer?
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| User: "Dylan" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
30 May 2005 12:13:07 AM |
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Niels van der Linden wrote:
She's spiritual.
Do you think spirituality is the same thing as theism?
I'll answer if you'll answer this first: Do you think unspirituality is
the same thing as atheism?
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| User: "Niels van der Linden" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
30 May 2005 06:48:00 AM |
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Niels van der Linden wrote:
She's spiritual.
Do you think spirituality is the same thing as theism?
I'll answer if you'll answer this first: Do you think unspirituality is
the same thing as atheism?
That's not an answer
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| User: "Dylan" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
30 May 2005 06:57:19 AM |
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Niels van der Linden wrote:
Niels van der Linden wrote:
She's spiritual.
Do you think spirituality is the same thing as theism?
I'll answer if you'll answer this first: Do you think unspirituality is
the same thing as atheism?
That's not an answer
It's a response.
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| User: "ArWeGod" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
06 Jun 2005 09:42:03 PM |
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"Dylan" <desertmountainholy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1117454239.848425.8200@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Niels van der Linden wrote:
Niels van der Linden wrote:
She's spiritual.
Do you think spirituality is the same thing as theism?
I'll answer if you'll answer this first: Do you think
unspirituality is
the same thing as atheism?
That's not an answer
It's a response.
It's an axiom.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
29 May 2005 10:35:20 PM |
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Dylan wrote:
wizofaus@hotmail.com wrote:
Heh...well it's certainly very mysterious to me. She's not the only
person I know with that sort of belief, either. It seems to be tied in
with beliefs in things like fate, soul-mates and instrincally
meaningful co-incidences - which of course describes a vast number of
people. And it's often very hard to explain to them that you don't
believe in any of these things without them thinking that you're some
kind of heartless hardline rationalist that denies his inner human
essence and thinks life is meaningless. It's especially hard to tell
your own wife that you don't believe in soul mates, or that we won't
truly be "together forever" in any meaningful sense of the words.
You don't know how lucky you are. You have no idea. You're clueless.
Hang on to this woman. She's spiritual.
She's also about to have my first born child, so I have no intention of
letting her go!
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| User: "Dylan" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
30 May 2005 07:10:08 AM |
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wrote:
Dylan wrote:
wrote:
Heh...well it's certainly very mysterious to me. She's not the only
person I know with that sort of belief, either. It seems to be tied in
with beliefs in things like fate, soul-mates and instrincally
meaningful co-incidences - which of course describes a vast number of
people. And it's often very hard to explain to them that you don't
believe in any of these things without them thinking that you're some
kind of heartless hardline rationalist that denies his inner human
essence and thinks life is meaningless. It's especially hard to tell
your own wife that you don't believe in soul mates, or that we won't
truly be "together forever" in any meaningful sense of the words.
You don't know how lucky you are. You have no idea. You're clueless.
Hang on to this woman. She's spiritual.
She's also about to have my first born child, so I have no intention of
letting her go!
Grats, Pops!
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
29 May 2005 09:58:54 PM |
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wrote:
or that we will
truly be "together forever" in any meaningful sense of the words.
^ oops...insert a 'never' in there (or change "will" to "won't").
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
20 May 2005 01:37:29 AM |
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On 19 May 2005 22:42:24 -0700,
Dylan <desertmountainholy@yahoo.com> wrote:
AC wrote:
On 19 May 2005 19:58:46 -0700,
Dylan <desertmountainholy@yahoo.com> wrote:
Woden wrote:
AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:slrnd8qc1t.78d.mightymartianca@strawberry.fields.forever:
On Thu, 19 May 2005 23:01:03 +0200,
Niels van der Linden <n.f.l.vanderlinden@student.utwente.nl>
wrote:
<snip>
Now can we please put the silly religions behind us. There is
no
afterlife, there is no heaven or hell, no creator, no god. If
you
can
just realize that, we can try to work together on this cozy
little
planet of ours.
Except that atheism is on no better footing than theism. I'm
afraid
your starting from the position that somehow disbelief in God is
better than belief.
....
Mirriam-Webster's 11th: atheist : "one who believes that there is
no
deity." Ergo, atheism is belief, not the absence of belief. -Dylan
It's an absurd definition. Disbelief is not belief. Replace YHVH
with Thor
or Zeus. Do you think that it is a declaration of faith to not
accept their
existence? How about ghosts, UFOs or the perfect marketplace?
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
I'm glad you're battling the dictionary rather than me. -Dylan
Dictionaries, like encyclopedias, are useful reference material, but they
are hardly the final word. My Oxford paperback dictionary gives
Christianity as "the religion based upon the teachings and works of Jesus
Christ." Now surely Christianity is a little more involved than that, an
dsurely the above dictionary entry for atheism is, at best, a layman's form.
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
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| User: "Dylan" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
23 May 2005 08:25:18 PM |
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AC wrote:
On 19 May 2005 22:42:24 -0700,
Dylan <desertmountainholy@yahoo.com> wrote:
AC wrote:
On 19 May 2005 19:58:46 -0700,
Dylan <desertmountainholy@yahoo.com> wrote:
Woden wrote:
AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:slrnd8qc1t.78d.mightymartianca@strawberry.fields.forever:
On Thu, 19 May 2005 23:01:03 +0200,
Niels van der Linden <n.f.l.vanderlinden@student.utwente.nl>
wrote:
<snip>
Now can we please put the silly religions behind us. There
is
no
afterlife, there is no heaven or hell, no creator, no god.
If
you
can
just realize that, we can try to work together on this cozy
little
planet of ours.
Except that atheism is on no better footing than theism. I'm
afraid
your starting from the position that somehow disbelief in God
is
better than belief.
....
Mirriam-Webster's 11th: atheist : "one who believes that there
is
no
deity." Ergo, atheism is belief, not the absence of belief.
-Dylan
It's an absurd definition. Disbelief is not belief. Replace YHVH
with Thor
or Zeus. Do you think that it is a declaration of faith to not
accept their
existence? How about ghosts, UFOs or the perfect marketplace?
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
I'm glad you're battling the dictionary rather than me. -Dylan
Dictionaries, like encyclopedias, are useful reference material, but
they
are hardly the final word. My Oxford paperback dictionary gives
Christianity as "the religion based upon the teachings and works of
Jesus
Christ." Now surely Christianity is a little more involved than
that, an
dsurely the above dictionary entry for atheism is, at best, a
layman's form.
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
What definition of "atheism" dos your Oxford give? What of "atheist"?
-Dylan
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
24 May 2005 12:46:26 PM |
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On 23 May 2005 18:25:18 -0700,
Dylan <desertmountainholy@yahoo.com> wrote:
AC wrote:
On 19 May 2005 22:42:24 -0700,
Dylan <desertmountainholy@yahoo.com> wrote:
AC wrote:
On 19 May 2005 19:58:46 -0700,
Dylan <desertmountainholy@yahoo.com> wrote:
Woden wrote:
AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:slrnd8qc1t.78d.mightymartianca@strawberry.fields.forever:
On Thu, 19 May 2005 23:01:03 +0200,
Niels van der Linden <n.f.l.vanderlinden@student.utwente.nl>
wrote:
<snip>
Now can we please put the silly religions behind us. There
is
no
afterlife, there is no heaven or hell, no creator, no god.
If
you
can
just realize that, we can try to work together on this cozy
little
planet of ours.
Except that atheism is on no better footing than theism. I'm
afraid
your starting from the position that somehow disbelief in God
is
better than belief.
....
Mirriam-Webster's 11th: atheist : "one who believes that there
is
no
deity." Ergo, atheism is belief, not the absence of belief.
-Dylan
It's an absurd definition. Disbelief is not belief. Replace YHVH
with Thor
or Zeus. Do you think that it is a declaration of faith to not
accept their
existence? How about ghosts, UFOs or the perfect marketplace?
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
I'm glad you're battling the dictionary rather than me. -Dylan
Dictionaries, like encyclopedias, are useful reference material, but
they
are hardly the final word. My Oxford paperback dictionary gives
Christianity as "the religion based upon the teachings and works of
Jesus
Christ." Now surely Christianity is a little more involved than
that, an
dsurely the above dictionary entry for atheism is, at best, a
layman's form.
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
What definition of "atheism" dos your Oxford give? What of "atheist"?
To understand a world view, I wouldn't turn to a dictionary at all. That's
the point. I have no idea why you wish to pursue what even you by now must
realize is a rather idiotic line of argument.
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
.
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| User: "Double Felix" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
20 May 2005 02:18:25 AM |
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In article <slrnd8r1da.8sb.mightymartianca@strawberry.fields.forever>,
AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 19 May 2005 22:42:24 -0700,
Dylan <desertmountainholy@yahoo.com> wrote:
AC wrote:
On 19 May 2005 19:58:46 -0700,
Dylan <desertmountainholy@yahoo.com> wrote:
Woden wrote:
AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:slrnd8qc1t.78d.mightymartianca@strawberry.fields.forever:
On Thu, 19 May 2005 23:01:03 +0200,
Niels van der Linden <n.f.l.vanderlinden@student.utwente.nl>
wrote:
<snip>
Now can we please put the silly religions behind us. There is
no
afterlife, there is no heaven or hell, no creator, no god. If
you
can
just realize that, we can try to work together on this cozy
little
planet of ours.
Except that atheism is on no better footing than theism. I'm
afraid
your starting from the position that somehow disbelief in God is
better than belief.
....
Mirriam-Webster's 11th: atheist : "one who believes that there is
no
deity." Ergo, atheism is belief, not the absence of belief. -Dylan
It's an absurd definition. Disbelief is not belief. Replace YHVH
with Thor
or Zeus. Do you think that it is a declaration of faith to not
accept their
existence? How about ghosts, UFOs or the perfect marketplace?
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
I'm glad you're battling the dictionary rather than me. -Dylan
Dictionaries, like encyclopedias, are useful reference material, but they
are hardly the final word. My Oxford paperback dictionary gives
Christianity as "the religion based upon the teachings and works of Jesus
Christ." Now surely Christianity is a little more involved than that, an
dsurely the above dictionary entry for atheism is, at best, a layman's form.
The definitions of "strong atheism" and "weak atheism" are essentially
the same for anybody who's been introduced to the concept of a god.
The belief in no god and the lack of belief in 1+ gods lead to an
equivalent answer to the question, "how many gods do you believe in?"
That answer is 'zero.' If a "belief" is the acceptance of a statement as
true, it makes little difference whether you state the existence of
god(s) in a positive or negative aspect, but the "strong atheism"
definition ("I believe there is/are no god(s)") doesn't cover all
atheists.
If you don't know what a god is, you're a "weak atheist" by default, and
you fit into the "lack of belief" definition.
- Felix
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| User: "Deimos" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
24 May 2005 10:19:45 AM |
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Double Felix wrote:
In article <slrnd8r1da.8sb.mightymartianca@strawberry.fields.forever>,
If you don't know what a god is, you're a "weak atheist" by default, and
you fit into the "lack of belief" definition.
What about "agnostic"?
Deimos.
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| User: "Ferrous Patella" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
20 May 2005 10:56:19 AM |
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news:1116567744.645249.203760@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com by Dylan:
AC wrote:
On 19 May 2005 19:58:46 -0700,
Dylan <desertmountainholy@yahoo.com> wrote:
[...]
Mirriam-Webster's 11th: atheist : "one who believes that there is no
deity." Ergo, atheism is belief, not the absence of belief. -Dylan
It's an absurd definition. Disbelief is not belief. Replace YHVH
with Thor or Zeus. Do you think that it is a declaration of faith to
not accept their existence? How about ghosts, UFOs or the perfect
marketplace?
[...]
I'm glad you're battling the dictionary rather than me.
Does the phrase "argumentum ad lexicon" mean anything to you?
--
Ferrous Patella (Homo gerardii)
T.A., Philosophy Lab
University of Ediacara
"Nature as God's "reality" show - what a concept!"
--A t.o. poster who wishes to remain anonymous
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
19 May 2005 09:54:15 PM |
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Woden wrote:
AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:slrnd8qc1t.78d.mightymartianca@strawberry.fields.forever:
On Thu, 19 May 2005 23:01:03 +0200,
Niels van der Linden <n.f.l.vanderlinden@student.utwente.nl> wrote:
<snip>
Now can we please put the silly religions behind us. There is no
afterlife, there is no heaven or hell, no creator, no god. If you can
just realize that, we can try to work together on this cozy little
planet of ours.
Except that atheism is on no better footing than theism. I'm afraid
your starting from the position that somehow disbelief in God is
better than belief.
And a-Santaism is on no better footing than Santaism. Why should the
belief in myths and superstions be considered equivalent to a lack of
belief due to the complete and utter lack of evidence for gods (or
Santa)?
Santaism is a branch of theism. Santa is, in many respects a god of
sorts. Therefore, atheism covers Santaism.
I think a better place to start is from mutual respect, discarding
this ludicrous desire to convert everyone to your version of the
Truth(tm).
Why should I respect those suffering from delusions of gods? Until they
quit trying to force their god myths on others, until they quit trying to
force their mythology into science classes, until they quit trying to
pass laws based on their myths, until they quit spreading their hatred,
descrimination and bias against gays/atheists/etc.,... Until they do
these things, I see no reason to respect them or their beliefs - I'd
rather fight!
I certainly don't respect the belief. It has been used on countless
ocassions as a weapon and shield for doing wrong. From anti-gay bigotry
to racism to Nazism.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
20 May 2005 05:09:23 AM |
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On Thu, 19 May 2005 23:01:03 +0200, "Niels van der Linden"
<n.f.l.vanderlinden@student.utwente.nl> wrote:
Now can we please put the silly religions behind us. There is no afterlife,
there is no heaven or hell, no creator, no god. If you can just realize
that, we can try to work together on this cozy little planet of ours.
Sorry, but God disagrees with you.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Niels van der Linden" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
20 May 2005 01:42:48 PM |
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Sorry, but God disagrees with you.
Didn't hear a word I said huh?
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
20 May 2005 02:16:48 PM |
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On Fri, 20 May 2005 20:42:48 +0200, "Niels van der Linden"
<n.f.l.vanderlinden@student.utwente.nl> wrote:
Sorry, but God disagrees with you.
Didn't hear a word I said huh?
Did you honestly expect Puke to listen, or even to show any
intelligence?
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
20 May 2005 02:33:15 PM |
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In article <rods81tpj91lrcqoq53asod32trba19bnh@4ax.com> "Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> writes:
On Fri, 20 May 2005 20:42:48 +0200, "Niels van der Linden"
<n.f.l.vanderlinden@student.utwente.nl> wrote:
Sorry, but God disagrees with you.
Didn't hear a word I said huh?
Did you honestly expect Puke to listen, or even to show any
intelligence?
True, I would have thought God's own Official Spokesduck to
be a bit more acute.
-- cary
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
20 May 2005 05:36:26 AM |
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In our last episode <8pdr81lig3ti5pg9n87e6bomblhdl9038u@4ax.com>, duke
pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
On Thu, 19 May 2005 23:01:03 +0200, "Niels van der Linden"
<n.f.l.vanderlinden@student.utwente.nl> wrote:
Now can we please put the silly religions behind us. There is no
afterlife, there is no heaven or hell, no creator, no god. If you can
just realize that, we can try to work together on this cozy little planet
of ours.
Sorry, but God disagrees with you.
So let him do his own Usenet posts.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
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| User: "Martin Hutton" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
20 May 2005 10:48:11 AM |
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On 20-May-2005, "Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In our last episode <8pdr81lig3ti5pg9n87e6bomblhdl9038u@4ax.com>, duke
pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
On Thu, 19 May 2005 23:01:03 +0200, "Niels van der Linden"
<n.f.l.vanderlinden@student.utwente.nl> wrote:
Now can we please put the silly religions behind us. There is no
afterlife, there is no heaven or hell, no creator, no god. If you can
just realize that, we can try to work together on this cozy little
planet
of ours.
Sorry, but God disagrees with you.
So let him do his own Usenet posts.
Yep. So we'll expect to see posts from BigG whose e-mail and IP
addresses are and 3.1.3.1.
Any day now...
--
Don't leave your dad in the rain...Caravan
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
21 May 2005 06:06:05 AM |
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In our last episode <_Enje.2278$bD5.388@fe07.lga>, Martin Hutton
pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
On 20-May-2005, "Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In our last episode <8pdr81lig3ti5pg9n87e6bomblhdl9038u@4ax.com>, duke
pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
On Thu, 19 May 2005 23:01:03 +0200, "Niels van der Linden"
<n.f.l.vanderlinden@student.utwente.nl> wrote:
Now can we please put the silly religions behind us. There is no
afterlife, there is no heaven or hell, no creator, no god. If you can
just realize that, we can try to work together on this cozy little
planet
of ours.
Sorry, but God disagrees with you.
So let him do his own Usenet posts.
Yep. So we'll expect to see posts from BigG whose e-mail and IP addresses
are and 3.1.3.1.
Any day now...
Wouldn't that be something more like 777.777.777.777?
(Of *course it's an impossible IPA, it's a *miracle you see)
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Chez Watt! (was Re: Getting tired of it) |
20 May 2005 10:03:10 AM |
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This has been a good month...
Sorry, but God disagrees with you.
So let him do his own Usenet posts.
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
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| User: "Woden" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
20 May 2005 05:43:19 PM |
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duke <duckgumbo32@sdc.cox.net> wrote in
news:8pdr81lig3ti5pg9n87e6bomblhdl9038u@4ax.com:
On Thu, 19 May 2005 23:01:03 +0200, "Niels van der Linden"
<n.f.l.vanderlinden@student.utwente.nl> wrote:
Now can we please put the silly religions behind us. There is no
afterlife, there is no heaven or hell, no creator, no god. If you can
just realize that, we can try to work together on this cozy little
planet of ours.
Sorry, but God disagrees with you.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
That's funny. I've never seen anything that can be verified as from any
god that disagrees with this.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
20 May 2005 09:20:02 PM |
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duke wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2005 23:01:03 +0200, "Niels van der Linden"
<n.f.l.vanderlinden@student.utwente.nl> wrote:
Now can we please put the silly religions behind us. There is no afterlife,
there is no heaven or hell, no creator, no god. If you can just realize
that, we can try to work together on this cozy little planet of ours.
Sorry, but God disagrees with you.
And agrees with you and your sort and only you and your sort, I take it?
God regrets creating us and our sort?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
20 May 2005 11:51:07 AM |
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duke wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2005 23:01:03 +0200, "Niels van der Linden"
<n.f.l.vanderlinden@student.utwente.nl> wrote:
Now can we please put the silly religions behind us. There is no
afterlife,
there is no heaven or hell, no creator, no god. If you can just
realize
that, we can try to work together on this cozy little planet of
ours.
Sorry, but God disagrees with you.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
So you are claiming to be God now.
If you are not, then *you are disagreeing with him, not God.
And *you are wrong.
Kermit
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| User: "Mark VandeWettering" |
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| Title: Re: Getting tired of it |
19 May 2005 05:14:51 PM |
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["Followup-To:" header set to talk.origins.]
On 2005-05-19, Niels van der Linden <n.f.l.vanderlinden@student.utwente.nl> wrote:
The appearance of intelligent life also seems inevitable.
I must admit, I'm looking forward to it.
Mark
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