Religions > Atheism > Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Armageddon Watch" |
| Date: |
17 Sep 2003 07:55:33 PM |
| Object: |
Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
The Evangelicals love to drink the blood of Jesus and to bathe and
wallow in it, and the dumbshit Zionists want do deny them their
greatest pleasure - while they know that Israel exists only due to
American support and American support is due to the votes of 40
million evangelicals eagerly awaiting Armageddon.
Well done, Mel ! You have just destroyed the Zionist state without
firing a shot !
Divided over "The Passion"
The furor over Mel Gibson's film is threatening the fledgling pro-
Israel alliance between evangelical Christians and key Jewish groups.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Eric Boehlert
Mel Gibson's "The Passion," the graphic film about the crucifixion of
Jesus Christ, won't be released until next spring, but the controversy
surrounding the film is already testing the resolve of one of the most
unorthodox political and interfaith alliances in play today: the bond
between conservative Christians and Jewish groups, who have come
together in recent years over their strong support for the state of
Israel.
Suddenly, "The Passion" has pitted the partners in this fledgling
alliance against one another, on opposite ends of an emotional debate.
Jewish groups, including the Anti-Defamation League, have called the
film anti-Semitic because it portrays Jews as responsible for the
killing of Jesus Christ. But many Christian evangelicals are applauding
the conservative Gibson's film.
"I think there's going to be a big backlash" because of the Passion
controversy, says Dave Blewett, president of the National Christian
Leadership Conference for Israel. "The film could create a divide
between Christians and Jews and solidify stereotypes we have of each
other."
On its Web site, the National Association of Evangelicals recently
posted a statement about "The Passion," which included a passage that
rankled some Jewish leaders: "There is a great deal of pressure on
Israel right now, and Christians seem to be a major source of support
for Israel. For Jewish leaders to risk alienating 2 billion Christians
over a movie seems shortsighted."
"We were very saddened and surprised to see that," says Eugene Korn,
director of interfaith affairs at the ADL. "It seemed almost like a
quid pro quo. Support for Israel shouldn't be part of political
negotiations." He notes, "It's the first time in several years the
issue of support for Israel had been raised by the evangelical
community."
The statement "was never intended to be a threat," says an NAE
spokesman. "It was an observation that [Jews] are combating people who
support them, groups that have never resisted Israel. It's baffled some
evangelicals that Jewish leaders are so antagonistic toward the people
who want what's best for the Jewish people."
The evangelical Christian-Jewish alliance, which has been building for
years, came into full public view following the terrorist attacks of
Sept. 11, along with the subsequent spike in Middle Eastern violence.
Conservative Christians, with close ties to the Republican White House,
have been forceful in declaring their unwavering support for Israel and
its conservative Likud government. Some members of the Christian
Zionist movement, as it's called, have even moved to the right of the
White House, bankrolling controversial Jewish settlements in the West
Bank, and criticizing the Bush administration's "Road Map" strategy for
peace between Israelis and Palestinians. Evangelicals are convinced the
peace plan would damage the Jewish state.
Late last month House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, traveled to
Israel and addressed lawmakers. "I come to you with a very simple
message: Do not be afraid," he said, relaying America's Christian
Zionist message. "Standing up for good against evil is very hard work --
it costs money and blood. But we're willing to pay."
The alliance has caused discomfort for some Jews, who suspect the
evangelical support is based less on a love for Jews than the desire to
fulfill interpretations of the Bible, that forecast the coming of the
Messiah only when the Jews are in the Promised Land. (According to the
prophecies, following the Messiah's return, some Jews will be saved,
but most will perish.)
Nonetheless, the Christians' strident political and spiritual support
of Israel remains alluring. "Israel's in desperate need of friends,"
says Blewett. "Some Jews don't want to work with evangelicals or accept
their support because they think there's an agenda. But most will,
because the issue of Israel is so crucial right now. And they figure
they'll deal with repercussions later."
Against that backdrop comes "The Passion." Many conservative Christians
are hailing the movie and its literal interpretation of the passion
play as a masterpiece, while Jewish groups like the ADL are objecting.
Last Friday, the Simon Wiesenthal Center, one of the largest
international Jewish human rights organizations, urged Gibson to make
changes to the film. In a press release, it said that the unreleased
film had "generated an unprecedented wave of hate mail and calls" to
the center.
The film has the "potential for discord between Christians and Jews,
absolutely," adds Kim Troupe, director of Christian Friends of Israeli
Community USA. "We're used to hearing from our Jewish friends about
their concerns over anti-Semitism. And it's a valid concern."
But some evangelicals insist the ADL isn't part of the Christian
Zionist alliance, anyway. "The criticism is coming from liberal groups
who are not happy about the [Christian-Jewish] alliance," notes Kristi
Hamrick, spokeswoman for American Values, a conservative advocacy group
run by former Republican presidential candidate Gary Bauer. "The ADL is
not at the center of this Christian-Jewish partnership."
"That's poppycock," responds ADL president Abe Foxman. "We have been
part of the Christian-Jewish dialogue." He notes last year that the ADL
reprinted a pro-Israel essay by Ralph Reed, former head of the
Christian Coalition, and ran it as a full-page ad in the New York
Times. As for the stridently pro-Israel ADL being "liberal," "That's
part of a small group of the evangelical community and making noise;
that's their political hang-ups," he says.
Meanwhile, Ted Haggard, the president of the NAE who has appeared on
several cable news programs praising "The Passion," reports he has
received anti-Christian e-mails from some Jews. "I'd guess if I'm
receiving the first ones like that in 20 years, others are receiving
them, too," says Haggard. "And I'd guess equally poorly informed people
on the Christian side probably writing to Jewish leaders."
Joseph Pruder, director of the Interfaith Task Force for America and
Israel, downplays any Hollywood-driven rift. "I think it's too soon to
portray this as a conflict or emerging conflict," he says. "It wouldn't
be the first thing we disagree on. Within the Jewish community there
has been unhappiness about evangelicals trying to missionize among
Jews. And the evangelical-for-Israel community has been very careful
about that."
However, Haggard at NAE reports, "We're starting to see preliminary
indications of anti-Semitism, not based on the movie, but based on what
Jewish leaders are saying on CNN every night about the movie, making
flamboyant claims."
He says, "Without a doubt average parishioners, the typical Baptist
church member who turns on the TV and sees the Jewish leadership
attacking a movie about Jesus, they are turned off by this. If it
continues, Christian leaders, who are doing everything they can to
support Jewish concerns and Israel, will have to justify why Jewish
leaders are attacking a movie about Christ. It's an unnecessary hurdle
to leap."
Haggard, along with other prominent American evangelical leaders, saw
the movie at Gibson's invitation last month in Colorado Springs.
Gibson, who is a devout Catholic, told the pastors, "The Holy Ghost was
working through me on this film, and I was just directing traffic. I
hope the film has the power to evangelize."
"I don't see anything new in this film, there's no new data, so I'm not
following their logic," says Haggard, referring to Jewish
critics. "These are good men but they're fearful of a shadow that
doesn't have any substance."
But Haggard insists that "support of Israel must absolutely continue,"
despite the rift over "The Passion."
On the political left, some are hoping the rift widens. "I hope it will
bring some sense to sectors of the Jewish community who have allied
with the most reactionary elements of the Christian community," says
Michael Lerner, head of the country's progressive Jewish organization,
Tikkun.
He calls the Jewish alliance with the Christian Zionist
movement "immoral," "destructive" and "opportunistic" because, "They're
aligning themselves with people who would prefer Jewish people not
exist," says Lerner. "Ask Christian Zionists if they do or do not
subscribe to the view that the world would be better off if everyone
became Christian."
There have been recent signs that the strong evangelical support of
Israel and Jews is not entirely consistent with their larger beliefs.
Last year, Christian Zionist leader DeLay told a group of Texas
evangelicals, "Only Christianity offers a way to live in response to
the realities that we find in this world -- only Christianity."
"Christians have to be very sold in the reasons why we're supporting
Israel," says Troupe, at Christian Friends of Israeli Community
USA. "If we're supporting it for an agenda of conversion or because of
the Messiah's return, that's problematic from the Jewish standpoint."
Lerner warns, "If the ["The Passion"] turns out to be anti-Semitic, it
will open the eyes of some in the Jewish community who mislead
themselves into believing that an alliance with right-wing Christians
had no downside."
Foxman at ADL says he's received some "I-told-you-so" phone calls from
concerned Jews complaining about the evangelical response to "The
Passion." Foxman dismisses the concern, saying those on the "extreme
left of the Jewish communities" such as Tikkun, are trying to drive
away conservative supporters. For now, while some Jews fret over "The
Passion," conservative Christians cheer it. Janet Parshall, head of the
National Religious Broadcasters Association, tells Salon, "I tip my hat
to Mel Gibson. His allegiance is to God, not a movie studio. He wants
to take the power of film to transmit the most important message
mankind has ever received."
A syndicated radio talk-show host and keynote speaker at a large pro-
Israel rally held in Washington during the spring of 2002, Parshall
calls Israel "the most important piece of property on the planet."
As for "The Passion," scheduled for an Easter 2004 release, Parshall
reports her listeners "cannot wait to see the movie."
- - - - - - - - - - - -
About the writer
Eric Boehlert is a senior writer at Salon.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/08/21/passion/print.html
--
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This is a spam protected message. Please answer with reference header.
Posted via http://www.usenet-replayer.com/cgi/content/new
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each OtherThroats |
18 Sep 2003 09:17:23 AM |
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-Snip article; link left below-
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/08/21/passion/print.html
I hate to say it, but I'm pretty amused at the controversy. If you actually
*read* the Gospels, the writers make it very plain -- especially in the
Gospel of John -- that it *was* the Jews, as a people, who betrayed and
murdered Jesus. THAT IS THE (pardon the expression) GOSPEL TRUTH!
This movie and the surrounding controversy will demonstrate the hypocricy of
Christianity as a whole better than anything in centuries.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
Is your faith so weak and your god so powerless
that, without government endorsement of your
religion, all hell will break loose?
.
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| User: "billu" |
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| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
18 Sep 2003 09:59:16 AM |
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"Gregory Gadow" <techbear@serv.net> wrote in message
news:3F69BE73.6D738120@serv.net...
-Snip article; link left below-
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/08/21/passion/print.html
I hate to say it, but I'm pretty amused at the controversy. If you
actually
*read* the Gospels, the writers make it very plain -- especially in the
Gospel of John -- that it *was* the Jews, as a people, who betrayed and
murdered Jesus. THAT IS THE (pardon the expression) GOSPEL TRUTH!
This movie and the surrounding controversy will demonstrate the hypocricy
of
Christianity as a whole better than anything in centuries.
As a whole I don't see how any Christian can blame those who were not
involved.
There was the Sanhedran and those gathered who shouted "Crucify him" Some
Jews were on Christ's side and others went through the whole thing ignorant.
I can't
see how anyone who was not involved can be blamed at all.
.
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| User: "Yang, Fairer Than Fox and More Balanced than John Pointdexter" |
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| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
20 Sep 2003 01:58:53 AM |
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On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:59:16 GMT, "billu" <billu@*nospam*hotmail.com>
wrote:
"Gregory Gadow" <techbear@serv.net> wrote in message
news:3F69BE73.6D738120@serv.net...
-Snip article; link left below-
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/08/21/passion/print.html
I hate to say it, but I'm pretty amused at the controversy. If you
actually
*read* the Gospels, the writers make it very plain -- especially in the
Gospel of John -- that it *was* the Jews, as a people, who betrayed and
murdered Jesus. THAT IS THE (pardon the expression) GOSPEL TRUTH!
This movie and the surrounding controversy will demonstrate the hypocricy
of
Christianity as a whole better than anything in centuries.
As a whole I don't see how any Christian can blame those who were not
involved.
There was the Sanhedran and those gathered who shouted "Crucify him" Some
Jews were on Christ's side and others went through the whole thing ignorant.
I can't see how anyone who was not involved can be blamed at all.
And why aren't the Christians going after the descendents of Romans-
French, English, Spaniards, Portugese, Italians and Swiss, for having
actually carried out the execution?
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Socerey Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec
The Bush 'balance' budget: -500 billion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: -3 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -296 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.
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| User: "Adam Marczyk" |
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| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
18 Sep 2003 02:30:39 PM |
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billu <billu@*nospam*hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7b295e2065b03e90f0664ecf91234057@news.teranews.com...
"Gregory Gadow" <techbear@serv.net> wrote in message
news:3F69BE73.6D738120@serv.net...
-Snip article; link left below-
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/08/21/passion/print.html
I hate to say it, but I'm pretty amused at the controversy. If you
actually *read* the Gospels, the writers make it very plain --
especially in the Gospel of John -- that it *was* the Jews, as a
people, who betrayed and murdered Jesus. THAT IS THE (pardon the
expression) GOSPEL TRUTH!
This movie and the surrounding controversy will demonstrate the
hypocricy of Christianity as a whole better than anything in centuries.
As a whole I don't see how any Christian can blame those who were not
involved.
There was the Sanhedran and those gathered who shouted "Crucify him" Some
Jews were on Christ's side and others went through the whole thing
ignorant. I can't
see how anyone who was not involved can be blamed at all.
It might have something to do with the fact that the Gospel of Matthew has
the Jews gathered before Pilate shout, "Crucify him! His blood be upon us
and upon our children!" (27:25). Christians have been using that one line
as justification to persecute Jews for centuries. Gibson's father,
apparently, is continuing that tradition.
--
"We have loved the stars too fondly | a.a. #2001
to be fearful of the night." | http://www.ebonmusings.org
--Tombstone epitaph of | e-mail: ebonmuse!hotmail.com
two amateur astronomers, | ICQ: 8777843
quoted in Carl Sagan's _Cosmos_ | PGP Key ID: 0x5C66F737
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
25 Sep 2003 10:37:13 PM |
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"Adam Marczyk" <see@sig.com> wrote in message
news:zJnab.2191$r26.1657@news02.roc.ny...
billu <billu@*nospam*hotmail.com> wrote in message
I can't
see how anyone who was not involved can be blamed at all.
It might have something to do with the fact that the Gospel of Matthew has
the Jews gathered before Pilate shout, "Crucify him! His blood be upon us
and upon our children!" (27:25). Christians have been using that one line
as justification to persecute Jews for centuries. Gibson's father,
apparently, is continuing that tradition.
Actually, so is Gibson himself; he's just not saying so directly in the
movie. He says that he left it out because people would come to his house to
kill him if he put it in. What a whacko!!
Susan
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
26 Sep 2003 09:49:05 AM |
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On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:37:13 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
"Adam Marczyk" <see@sig.com> wrote in message
news:zJnab.2191$r26.1657@news02.roc.ny...
billu <billu@*nospam*hotmail.com> wrote in message
I can't
see how anyone who was not involved can be blamed at all.
It might have something to do with the fact that the Gospel of Matthew has
the Jews gathered before Pilate shout, "Crucify him! His blood be upon us
and upon our children!" (27:25). Christians have been using that one line
as justification to persecute Jews for centuries. Gibson's father,
apparently, is continuing that tradition.
Actually, so is Gibson himself; he's just not saying so directly in the
movie. He says that he left it out because people would come to his house to
kill him if he put it in. What a whacko!!
Susan
Gibson and the Jews against the movie are both probably nuts.
In the first place, what makes this line any more or less believable
than anything else in in the Bible and second, why exactly
do Jews think is going to happen if people take it to heart?
Do you think Christians will start executing Jews over it?
It is the 20th century, not the 12th.
-Rich
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
29 Sep 2003 11:12:53 PM |
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<rander3127@rrogers.com> wrote in message
news:o8k8nvcj0p7mft62km90qmmi6iht9emmap@4ax.com...
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:37:13 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
"Adam Marczyk" <see@sig.com> wrote in message
It might have something to do with the fact that the Gospel of Matthew
has
the Jews gathered before Pilate shout, "Crucify him! His blood be upon
us
and upon our children!" (27:25). Christians have been using that one
line
as justification to persecute Jews for centuries. Gibson's father,
apparently, is continuing that tradition.
Actually, so is Gibson himself; he's just not saying so directly in the
movie. He says that he left it out because people would come to his house
to
kill him if he put it in. What a whacko!!
Gibson and the Jews against the movie are both probably nuts.
In the first place, what makes this line any more or less believable
than anything else in in the Bible and second, why exactly
do Jews think is going to happen if people take it to heart?
Do you think Christians will start executing Jews over it?
The ADL has already noted a rise in hate mail.
It is the 20th century, not the 12th.
And there are plenty of people who want to kill Jews, & need only the
slightest encouragement.
Susan
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
30 Sep 2003 01:43:33 PM |
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On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 00:12:53 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
<rander3127@rrogers.com> wrote in message
news:o8k8nvcj0p7mft62km90qmmi6iht9emmap@4ax.com...
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:37:13 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
"Adam Marczyk" <see@sig.com> wrote in message
It might have something to do with the fact that the Gospel of Matthew
has
the Jews gathered before Pilate shout, "Crucify him! His blood be upon
us
and upon our children!" (27:25). Christians have been using that one
line
as justification to persecute Jews for centuries. Gibson's father,
apparently, is continuing that tradition.
Actually, so is Gibson himself; he's just not saying so directly in the
movie. He says that he left it out because people would come to his house
to
kill him if he put it in. What a whacko!!
Gibson and the Jews against the movie are both probably nuts.
In the first place, what makes this line any more or less believable
than anything else in in the Bible and second, why exactly
do Jews think is going to happen if people take it to heart?
Do you think Christians will start executing Jews over it?
The ADL has already noted a rise in hate mail.
Sticks and stones.
It is the 20th century, not the 12th.
And there are plenty of people who want to kill Jews, & need only the
slightest encouragement.
Susan
Sure, but they have nothing to do with the U.S. or the Western world.
It's like worrying about a gust of wind upsetting your backyard garden
table in the U.S. when the hurricane is in the Middle East.
-Rich
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| User: "Legal Tender" |
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| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
30 Sep 2003 01:55:33 PM |
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I notice that most of/many Arabs want to kill Jews and it has nothing to do
with Christ.
The Movie may not even get any/much air time in Moslem countries, Remember
even John Wayne's "Green Berets" movie was banned in many countries and that
had nothing to do with religion..
Frank
<rander3127@rrogers.com> wrote in message
news:gjjjnvsjrf9cfo2aik38228jn5s2enut4t@4ax.com...
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 00:12:53 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
<rander3127@rrogers.com> wrote in message
news:o8k8nvcj0p7mft62km90qmmi6iht9emmap@4ax.com...
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:37:13 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
"Adam Marczyk" <see@sig.com> wrote in message
It might have something to do with the fact that the Gospel of
Matthew
has
the Jews gathered before Pilate shout, "Crucify him! His blood be
upon
us
and upon our children!" (27:25). Christians have been using that one
line
as justification to persecute Jews for centuries. Gibson's father,
apparently, is continuing that tradition.
Actually, so is Gibson himself; he's just not saying so directly in
the
movie. He says that he left it out because people would come to his
house
to
kill him if he put it in. What a whacko!!
Gibson and the Jews against the movie are both probably nuts.
In the first place, what makes this line any more or less believable
than anything else in in the Bible and second, why exactly
do Jews think is going to happen if people take it to heart?
Do you think Christians will start executing Jews over it?
The ADL has already noted a rise in hate mail.
Sticks and stones.
It is the 20th century, not the 12th.
And there are plenty of people who want to kill Jews, & need only the
slightest encouragement.
Susan
Sure, but they have nothing to do with the U.S. or the Western world.
It's like worrying about a gust of wind upsetting your backyard garden
table in the U.S. when the hurricane is in the Middle East.
-Rich
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| User: "marika" |
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| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
30 Sep 2003 06:23:15 PM |
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"Legal Tender" <ariz@galaxynet.com> wrote in message news:<3f79d1a0_1@127.0.0.1>...
I notice that most of/many Arabs want to kill Jews and it has nothing to do
with Christ.
The Movie may not even get any/much air time in Moslem countries, Remember
even John Wayne's "Green Berets" movie was banned in many countries and that
had nothing to do with religion..
that's a gppd po[nt because movies like bringing downn the house
everyone wanted to kill everyone else but not to do with religion
and tey didn'g get slammed for religion but got in trouble for
platiarism
mk5000
"Final advice: start a new thread with each new question. Don't post a
question as a followup to a new question. Many who answer questions
here
only have time to look at questions to which no one has responded and
wouldn't have even seen this one. "--larry linson
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
30 Sep 2003 11:44:27 PM |
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On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 18:43:33 GMT, posted in
alt.atheism:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 00:12:53 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
And there are plenty of people who want to kill Jews, & need only the
slightest encouragement.
Sure, but they have nothing to do with the U.S. or the Western world.
Americans living in the U. S. have nothing to do with the U. S.?
--
"Damn. Looks like all of usenet agrees that you don't have the logical
faculties to prove the statement 'dogshit is not peanut butter' if we
gave you a jar of each and a box of crackers" - John Hattan to Tichy
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
01 Oct 2003 12:48:36 AM |
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On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 04:44:27 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 18:43:33 GMT, posted in
alt.atheism:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 00:12:53 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
And there are plenty of people who want to kill Jews, & need only the
slightest encouragement.
Sure, but they have nothing to do with the U.S. or the Western world.
Americans living in the U. S. have nothing to do with the U. S.?
So who in the U.S. is killing Jews? Who requires just some minor
trigger (like a movie!) to do this? You are talking nonsense.
-Rich
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| User: "Bill The Avender" |
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| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
01 Oct 2003 12:54:18 AM |
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Subject: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other
Throats
From:
Date: 10/1/03 1:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <ajqknv0arnqqa3mrk7ouil2gqp483dqkgc@4ax.com>
On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 04:44:27 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 18:43:33 GMT, posted in
alt.atheism:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 00:12:53 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
And there are plenty of people who want to kill Jews, & need only the
slightest encouragement.
Sure, but they have nothing to do with the U.S. or the Western world.
Americans living in the U. S. have nothing to do with the U. S.?
So who in the U.S. is killing Jews? Who requires just some minor
trigger (like a movie!) to do this? You are talking nonsense.
-Rich
No one yet. Not publicly, anyway. The message stated ther are plenty of people
who _want_ to kill Jews, and who don't need much encouragement. Plenty of
these people _do_ live in the U.S. - people who _want_ to kill Jews (or blacks,
or gays, or muslims, or... you get the idea...), and who are basically the
equivalent of an itchy trigger finger just _dying_ for an excuse to squeeze.
L8r,
Bill
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
01 Oct 2003 09:04:06 PM |
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On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 05:48:36 GMT, posted in
alt.atheism:
On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 04:44:27 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 18:43:33 GMT, posted in
alt.atheism:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 00:12:53 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
And there are plenty of people who want to kill Jews, & need only the
slightest encouragement.
Sure, but they have nothing to do with the U.S. or the Western world.
Americans living in the U. S. have nothing to do with the U. S.?
So who in the U.S. is killing Jews?
Read it again. I think I spotted the words "want to".
Who requires just some minor
trigger (like a movie!) to do this? You are talking nonsense.
That's what they said in Germany. When they come for you there won't
be anyone left to defend you.
--
"...I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand
why I dismiss yours."
- Stephen F. Roberts
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
01 Oct 2003 11:53:02 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:oq1nnv45h9a8n0krf2upshjao3k0khfh2n@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 05:48:36 GMT, posted in
alt.atheism:
Who requires just some minor
trigger (like a movie!) to do this? You are talking nonsense.
That's what they said in Germany. When they come for you there won't
be anyone left to defend you.
The ADL already reports higher numbers of hate-mail.
Susan
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
02 Oct 2003 11:15:24 AM |
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On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 00:53:02 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:oq1nnv45h9a8n0krf2upshjao3k0khfh2n@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 05:48:36 GMT, posted in
alt.atheism:
Who requires just some minor
trigger (like a movie!) to do this? You are talking nonsense.
That's what they said in Germany. When they come for you there won't
be anyone left to defend you.
The ADL already reports higher numbers of hate-mail.
Susan
Linked to the movie? And if it is, how much more
would they have gotten if they had simply ignored
the movie?
-Rich
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
02 Oct 2003 12:55:20 PM |
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<rander3127@rrogers.com> wrote in message
news:8mjonv8d9n5aflj6mhk13fl0sgevakrbgr@4ax.com...
On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 00:53:02 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
Who requires just some minor
trigger (like a movie!) to do this? You are talking nonsense.
That's what they said in Germany. When they come for you there won't
be anyone left to defend you.
The ADL already reports higher numbers of hate-mail.
Susan
Linked to the movie?
I believe so, yes - IIRC the hate mail specifically mentioned the deicide
nonsense.
And if it is, how much more
would they have gotten if they had simply ignored
the movie?
But that's impossible to tell!
Susan
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
02 Oct 2003 03:16:36 PM |
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On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:55:20 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
<rander3127@rrogers.com> wrote in message
news:8mjonv8d9n5aflj6mhk13fl0sgevakrbgr@4ax.com...
On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 00:53:02 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
Who requires just some minor
trigger (like a movie!) to do this? You are talking nonsense.
That's what they said in Germany. When they come for you there won't
be anyone left to defend you.
The ADL already reports higher numbers of hate-mail.
Susan
Linked to the movie?
I believe so, yes - IIRC the hate mail specifically mentioned the deicide
nonsense.
And if it is, how much more
would they have gotten if they had simply ignored
the movie?
But that's impossible to tell!
Susan
Maybe, but controversy and attention given to the
movie will only stir up those who want to use it
as a pretext for anti-semitism. How often has it
been said that if people had simply ignored things
those things would have been quickly forgotten?
Most movies that were controversial tended to be the
kind that most people wouldn't see normally. I think
"Cruising" might have been the exception. But there is
no doubt that part of their box-office take came from
curiosity created by controversy.
Honestly, I would not worry. No one is going to let
isolated hate groups go on some kind of killing spree
against Jews because of this movie. If those people have any sense,
they will not give the authorities in the United States
the reason they need to bring in laws restricting speech
the way they have in England, Germany and Canada.
-Rich
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
|
| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
02 Oct 2003 10:43:09 PM |
|
|
<rander3127@rrogers.com> wrote in message
news:si1pnvc43r0dba0r9mf3mdvvj13mcnjg9j@4ax.com...
On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:55:20 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
<rander3127@rrogers.com> wrote in message
news:8mjonv8d9n5aflj6mhk13fl0sgevakrbgr@4ax.com...
On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 00:53:02 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
Who requires just some minor
trigger (like a movie!) to do this? You are talking nonsense.
That's what they said in Germany. When they come for you there
won't
be anyone left to defend you.
The ADL already reports higher numbers of hate-mail.
Susan
Linked to the movie?
I believe so, yes - IIRC the hate mail specifically mentioned the deicide
nonsense.
And if it is, how much more
would they have gotten if they had simply ignored
the movie?
But that's impossible to tell!
Susan
Maybe, but controversy and attention given to the
movie will only stir up those who want to use it
as a pretext for anti-semitism. How often has it
been said that if people had simply ignored things
those things would have been quickly forgotten?
Of course, it's easy to say after the fact.
Yes, I would not be in the least surprised if the "concerned worker" on the
film who leaked it to the press because he was "worried about anti-semitism"
was really just cleverly working *on* Mel's behalf, but it really is a case
if damned if you do & damned if you don't.
Most movies that were controversial tended to be the
kind that most people wouldn't see normally. I think
"Cruising" might have been the exception. But there is
no doubt that part of their box-office take came from
curiosity created by controversy.
Honestly, I would not worry. No one is going to let
isolated hate groups go on some kind of killing spree
against Jews because of this movie.
Well, I'm not worried about huge-scale pogroms, no - but I would hate to be
the mother of the *one* person that gets killed because this movie drives
some nutjob over the edge.
If those people have any sense,
they will not give the authorities in the United States
the reason they need to bring in laws restricting speech
the way they have in England, Germany and Canada.
Like my father, a"h, said about flag burners: "Don't make laws against it -
how else would we know who to shoot?"
I don't want to censor the film; I just want Gibson to be held responsible
for it.
Susan
.
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| User: "BTR1701" |
|
| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
02 Oct 2003 11:29:40 PM |
|
|
In article <3f7cf07c@news101.his.com>, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
I don't want to censor the film; I just want Gibson to be held
responsible for it.
You keep saying this but you never define what you mean by "held
responsible". What exactly do you think should happen to Gibson for
daring to tell the fundamental story of his own religion?
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
|
| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
03 Oct 2003 12:04:56 AM |
|
|
"BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:BTR1702-4AC688.23301602102003@news.west.earthlink.net...
In article <3f7cf07c@news101.his.com>, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
I don't want to censor the film; I just want Gibson to be held
responsible for it.
You keep saying this but you never define what you mean by "held
responsible".
I didn't think I had to spell it out.
What exactly do you think should happen to Gibson for
daring to tell the fundamental story of his own religion?
Whatever they did to Matt Hale for doing the same thing.
Susan
.
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| User: "BTR1701" |
|
| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
03 Oct 2003 12:08:41 AM |
|
|
In article <3f7d037b$1@news101.his.com>, "Susan Cohen"
<flaviaR@his.com> wrote:
"BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:BTR1702-4AC688.23301602102003@news.west.earthlink.net...
In article <3f7cf07c@news101.his.com>, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
I don't want to censor the film; I just want Gibson to be held
responsible for it.
You keep saying this but you never define what you mean by "held
responsible".
I didn't think I had to spell it out.
You thought wrong. Spell it.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Susan Cohen" |
|
| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
03 Oct 2003 01:38:52 PM |
|
|
"BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:BTR1702-D60E24.00091703102003@news.west.earthlink.net...
In article <3f7d037b$1@news101.his.com>, "Susan Cohen"
<flaviaR@his.com> wrote:
"BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:BTR1702-4AC688.23301602102003@news.west.earthlink.net...
In article <3f7cf07c@news101.his.com>, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
I don't want to censor the film; I just want Gibson to be held
responsible for it.
You keep saying this but you never define what you mean by "held
responsible".
I didn't think I had to spell it out.
You thought wrong. Spell it.
I do in another post. Read it.
Susan
.
|
|
|
| User: "BTR1701" |
|
| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
03 Oct 2003 05:57:48 PM |
|
|
In article <3f7dc24f@news101.his.com>, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
"BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:BTR1702-D60E24.00091703102003@news.west.earthlink.net...
In article <3f7d037b$1@news101.his.com>, "Susan Cohen"
<flaviaR@his.com> wrote:
"BTR1701" <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:BTR1702-4AC688.23301602102003@news.west.earthlink.net...
In article <3f7cf07c@news101.his.com>, "Susan Cohen"
<flaviaR@his.com> wrote:
I don't want to censor the film; I just want Gibson to be held
responsible for it.
You keep saying this but you never define what you mean by "held
responsible".
I didn't think I had to spell it out.
You thought wrong. Spell it.
I do in another post. Read it.
First you say you didn't think you had to spell it out, now you say
you've already done it. Which is it, Sybil? How many personalities do
you have in there?
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
03 Oct 2003 10:02:06 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 23:43:09 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
<rander3127@rrogers.com> wrote in message
news:si1pnvc43r0dba0r9mf3mdvvj13mcnjg9j@4ax.com...
On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:55:20 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
<rander3127@rrogers.com> wrote in message
news:8mjonv8d9n5aflj6mhk13fl0sgevakrbgr@4ax.com...
On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 00:53:02 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
Who requires just some minor
trigger (like a movie!) to do this? You are talking nonsense.
That's what they said in Germany. When they come for you there
won't
be anyone left to defend you.
The ADL already reports higher numbers of hate-mail.
Susan
Linked to the movie?
I believe so, yes - IIRC the hate mail specifically mentioned the deicide
nonsense.
And if it is, how much more
would they have gotten if they had simply ignored
the movie?
But that's impossible to tell!
Susan
Maybe, but controversy and attention given to the
movie will only stir up those who want to use it
as a pretext for anti-semitism. How often has it
been said that if people had simply ignored things
those things would have been quickly forgotten?
Of course, it's easy to say after the fact.
Yes, I would not be in the least surprised if the "concerned worker" on the
film who leaked it to the press because he was "worried about anti-semitism"
was really just cleverly working *on* Mel's behalf, but it really is a case
if damned if you do & damned if you don't.
Most movies that were controversial tended to be the
kind that most people wouldn't see normally. I think
"Cruising" might have been the exception. But there is
no doubt that part of their box-office take came from
curiosity created by controversy.
Honestly, I would not worry. No one is going to let
isolated hate groups go on some kind of killing spree
against Jews because of this movie.
Well, I'm not worried about huge-scale pogroms, no - but I would hate to be
the mother of the *one* person that gets killed because this movie drives
some nutjob over the edge.
Well, I'm sure some lawyer somewhere can think up an excuse tied to
the movie for a client to avoid the death penalty. I think we've
seen that with record albums.
You can never predict if that will happen and it is not advisable to
ban movies because that isolated possibility exists. If this were
possible, there would be no protection for any form of free speech
unless it met what would probably be slowly narrowing parameters.
If those people have any sense,
they will not give the authorities in the United States
the reason they need to bring in laws restricting speech
the way they have in England, Germany and Canada.
Like my father, a"h, said about flag burners: "Don't make laws against it -
how else would we know who to shoot?"
I don't want to censor the film; I just want Gibson to be held responsible
for it.
Susan
What choice will he have? It's his vanity picture.
-Rich
.
|
|
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| User: "BTR1701" |
|
| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
03 Oct 2003 12:40:36 PM |
|
|
In article <dk3rnvk52tb5g5fatles96oo8m0cc3apv6@4ax.com>,
rander3127@rrogers.com wrote:
On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 23:43:09 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
Well, I'm not worried about huge-scale pogroms, no - but I would hate to
be the mother of the *one* person that gets killed because this movie
drives some nutjob over the edge.
Well, I'm sure some lawyer somewhere can think up an excuse tied to
the movie for a client to avoid the death penalty. I think we've
seen that with record albums.
You can never predict if that will happen and it is not advisable to
ban movies because that isolated possibility exists. If this were
possible, there would be no protection for any form of free speech
unless it met what would probably be slowly narrowing parameters.
Years ago, Stephen King was asked by an interviewer to comment on the
case of a girl who was arrested for murder when she stabbed her mother
to death in the exact same manner as Carrie White killed her mother in
King's book "Carrie".
King responded that anyone who is so unstable and deranged as to do such
a thing will find a focus and an outlet for their insanity somewhere. If
he hadn't written "Carrie", the girl would have found some other book,
movie or real life event to model her homicidal rage after. Therefore,
he said, he feels no responsibility when he hears about such people
blaming his books for their criminal actions.
If those people have any sense,
they will not give the authorities in the United States
the reason they need to bring in laws restricting speech
the way they have in England, Germany and Canada.
The authorities in the United States don't have the ability to bring
about those laws. Only the people, through a constitutional amendment,
could do such a thing.
.
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| User: "WareWolf" |
|
| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
03 Oct 2003 12:55:27 PM |
|
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BTR1701 wrote in rec.arts.movies.current-films :
Years ago, Stephen King was asked by an interviewer to comment on the
case of a girl who was arrested for murder when she stabbed her mother
to death in the exact same manner as Carrie White killed her mother in
King's book "Carrie".
By using telekenisis to make knives fly through the air and impale her?
Why weren't we told about this?
Dusty
--
Jesus! Where will it end? How low do you have to stoop in this country to be President?
-- Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing: On the Campaign Trail '72
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
|
| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
03 Oct 2003 01:47:59 PM |
|
|
"WareWolf" <dustyr@NONONOnc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.19e782cb275391eb9898a9@news-server.nc.rr.com...
BTR1701 wrote in rec.arts.movies.current-films :
Years ago, Stephen King was asked by an interviewer to comment on the
case of a girl who was arrested for murder when she stabbed her mother
to death in the exact same manner as Carrie White killed her mother in
King's book "Carrie".
By using telekenisis to make knives fly through the air and impale her?
Why weren't we told about this?
How could they have managed to arrest her??
Susan
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
02 Oct 2003 09:20:39 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 16:15:24 GMT, posted in
alt.atheism:
On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 00:53:02 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:oq1nnv45h9a8n0krf2upshjao3k0khfh2n@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 05:48:36 GMT, posted in
alt.atheism:
Who requires just some minor
trigger (like a movie!) to do this? You are talking nonsense.
That's what they said in Germany. When they come for you there won't
be anyone left to defend you.
The ADL already reports higher numbers of hate-mail.
Linked to the movie? And if it is, how much more
would they have gotten if they had simply ignored
the movie?
How many Christians who also haven't ignored the movie have gotten
hate mail?
--
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of
themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Gibson Snuff Movie Gets Evangelicals And Zionists On Each Other Throats |
03 Oct 2003 09:57:23 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 02:20:39 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 16:15:24 GMT, posted in
alt.atheism:
On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 00:53:02 -0400, "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@his.com>
wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:oq1nnv45h9a8n0krf2upshjao3k0khfh2n@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 05:48:36 GMT, posted in
alt.atheism:
Who requires just some minor
trigger (like a movie!) to do this? You are talking nonsense.
That's what they said in Germany. When they come for you there won't
be anyone left to defend you.
The ADL already reports higher numbers of hate-mail.
Linked to the movie? And if it is, how much more
would they have gotten if they had simply ignored
the movie?
How many Christians who also haven't ignored the movie have gotten
hate mail?
Probably none, because they aren't likely to be trying to prevent
freedom of speech as organizations like the ADL are.
-Rich
.
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