| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"JJ " |
| Date: |
10 Feb 2004 02:33:30 AM |
| Object: |
Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
Here's a thought that occurred to me tonight:
Why don't we simply give the xtians what they want? A theocracy in
America...
Ok, hear me out on this. My thinking here is that although the polls
show that ~90% of Americans "believe" in god, I suspect that a much,
much smaller group of that 90% are fundamentalists, and even less than
that actually ever go to church on Sunday.
It's this smaller group of Americans (the ones that 'say they believe
in god' (but don't ever go to church)) that I am considering here...
Ok, enough ambiguity. Say we allow the xtian fundies to utterly take
over America such that we indeed do have a theocracy on our hands.
Rather than fight it, we instead embrace it (or more accurately,
ignore it for the moment).
Once this event occurs, however, I suspect that people will soon learn
that the devout xtian is, in fact a minority! I only posit this idea
because I think that mainstream society in America is largely secular,
only they don't understand themselves as being so. In other words,
should America become a theocracy "overnight" (or quickly), the public
at large would then have to suddenly abide by the laws of their bible.
Heh! I can see the 'new' America now:
What!? You mean to tell me that I have to go to church every Sunday?
What about the football games?
What? You mean to tell me that I must take time out of my day
everyday and worship the Lord God as it's outlined in the Bible??? I
have to go to work! This is stupid!
What?? You mean to tell me that when my child gets sick that I can't
use my SUV to run over to the doctor and get it fixed? Instead, I
have to drip blood from a sheep around on my carpet and pray instead?
Yet these same people, these typical Americans, enthusiatically answer
'Yes" when asked on the street of whether or not they believe in
'god'.
Amazing, isn't it?
Hell, let's introduce America to the REAL doctrine that is their
beloved Christianity. Then, let's sit back and laugh at their
ultimate response. I suspect that "mainstream" thinking would quickly
overthrow religion very quickly.
Just a thought.
JJ
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
10 Feb 2004 03:38:26 AM |
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<JJ> wrote in message news:ro3h20hip3a4k23qpgb45csqfa772mgmsp@4ax.com...
Here's a thought that occurred to me tonight:
Why don't we simply give the xtians what they want? A theocracy in
America...
Ok, hear me out on this. My thinking here is that although the polls
show that ~90% of Americans "believe" in god, I suspect that a much,
much smaller group of that 90% are fundamentalists, and even less than
that actually ever go to church on Sunday.
It's this smaller group of Americans (the ones that 'say they believe
in god' (but don't ever go to church)) that I am considering here...
Ok, enough ambiguity. Say we allow the xtian fundies to utterly take
over America such that we indeed do have a theocracy on our hands.
Rather than fight it, we instead embrace it (or more accurately,
ignore it for the moment).
Once this event occurs, however, I suspect that people will soon learn
that the devout xtian is, in fact a minority! I only posit this idea
because I think that mainstream society in America is largely secular,
only they don't understand themselves as being so. In other words,
should America become a theocracy "overnight" (or quickly), the public
at large would then have to suddenly abide by the laws of their bible.
Heh! I can see the 'new' America now:
What!? You mean to tell me that I have to go to church every Sunday?
What about the football games?
What? You mean to tell me that I must take time out of my day
everyday and worship the Lord God as it's outlined in the Bible??? I
have to go to work! This is stupid!
What?? You mean to tell me that when my child gets sick that I can't
use my SUV to run over to the doctor and get it fixed? Instead, I
have to drip blood from a sheep around on my carpet and pray instead?
Yet these same people, these typical Americans, enthusiatically answer
'Yes" when asked on the street of whether or not they believe in
'god'.
Amazing, isn't it?
Hell, let's introduce America to the REAL doctrine that is their
beloved Christianity. Then, let's sit back and laugh at their
ultimate response. I suspect that "mainstream" thinking would quickly
overthrow religion very quickly.
Just a thought.
Dangerous medicine, but the backlash would be entertaining.
However, the damage they could do to the constitution while they're in power
might be irrepairable, so I can't agree to the risk.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
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| User: "August Pamplona" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
10 Feb 2004 06:46:09 PM |
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In news:FradnYHun7YyO7XdRVn-ug@io.com,
Denis Loubet <dloubet@io.com> typed:
<JJ> wrote in message
news:ro3h20hip3a4k23qpgb45csqfa772mgmsp@4ax.com...
Here's a thought that occurred to me tonight:
Why don't we simply give the xtians what they want? A theocracy in
America...
Ok, hear me out on this. My thinking here is that although the polls
show that ~90% of Americans "believe" in god, I suspect that a much,
much smaller group of that 90% are fundamentalists, and even less
than that actually ever go to church on Sunday.
It's this smaller group of Americans (the ones that 'say they believe
in god' (but don't ever go to church)) that I am considering here...
Ok, enough ambiguity. Say we allow the xtian fundies to utterly take
over America such that we indeed do have a theocracy on our hands.
Rather than fight it, we instead embrace it (or more accurately,
ignore it for the moment).
Once this event occurs, however, I suspect that people will soon
learn that the devout xtian is, in fact a minority! I only posit
this idea because I think that mainstream society in America is
largely secular, only they don't understand themselves as being so.
In other words, should America become a theocracy "overnight" (or
quickly), the public at large would then have to suddenly abide by
the laws of their bible.
Heh! I can see the 'new' America now:
What!? You mean to tell me that I have to go to church every Sunday?
What about the football games?
What? You mean to tell me that I must take time out of my day
everyday and worship the Lord God as it's outlined in the Bible??? I
have to go to work! This is stupid!
What?? You mean to tell me that when my child gets sick that I can't
use my SUV to run over to the doctor and get it fixed? Instead, I
have to drip blood from a sheep around on my carpet and pray instead?
Yet these same people, these typical Americans, enthusiatically
answer 'Yes" when asked on the street of whether or not they believe
in 'god'.
Amazing, isn't it?
Hell, let's introduce America to the REAL doctrine that is their
beloved Christianity. Then, let's sit back and laugh at their
ultimate response. I suspect that "mainstream" thinking would quickly
overthrow religion very quickly.
Just a thought.
Dangerous medicine, but the backlash would be entertaining.
However, the damage they could do to the constitution while they're
in power might be irrepairable, so I can't agree to the risk.
I have to agree, this sort of thing hasn't really turned out to be
all that humorous when attempted, to a greater or lesser degree, in
other countries (i.e. Afghanistan). It probably won't seem all that
funny when (and if) it happens here.
August Pamplona
--
The waterfall in Java is not wet.
- omegazero2003 on m.f.w.
a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut
The address in this message's 'From' field, in accordance with
individual.net's TOS, is real. However, almost all messages
reaching this address are deleted without human intervention.
In other words, if you e-mail me there, I will not receive your message.
To make sure that e-mail messages actually reach me,
make sure that my e-mail address is not hot.
.
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| User: "I Am Your Clayton, Luke!" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
10 Feb 2004 07:13:33 PM |
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<JJ> wrote in message news:ro3h20hip3a4k23qpgb45csqfa772mgmsp@4ax.com...
Here's a thought that occurred to me tonight:
Why don't we simply give the xtians what they want? A theocracy in
America...
That worked so well in Afghanistan.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
10 Feb 2004 10:14:49 AM |
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And so upon Tue, 10 Feb 2004 02:33:30 -0600 didst speak thusly:
Why don't we simply give the xtians what they want? A theocracy in
America...
Would eventually require a bloody civil war to overthrow.
I mean, unless they started a conflict that resulted in a nuclear exchange
and left the planet to the roaches...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
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| User: "JJ " |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
11 Feb 2004 01:30:33 AM |
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Having read all of the replies thus far (too many to respond to
individually), I have come to the conclusion that while this idea
could make for an entertaining fiction novel (at least to those of us
on this side of the fence), it would, in reality, ultimately backfire.
:)
The posters who said that it's too risky/would likely backfire are
right, in my opinion.
I suppose that with each inch of rope given (invested), an exponential
amount of irreversible damage (long-term loss) would simultaneously
occur.
Ok, so much for that (dumb) idea. :)
Well, it was just a thought, after all.
Take care all,
JJ
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
12 Feb 2004 12:46:12 AM |
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<JJ> wrote in message news:uhlj20tpa5h1j416sinq6hj918cnq2msot@4ax.com...
Having read all of the replies thus far (too many to respond to
individually), I have come to the conclusion that while this idea
could make for an entertaining fiction novel (at least to those of us
on this side of the fence), it would, in reality, ultimately backfire.
:)
The posters who said that it's too risky/would likely backfire are
right, in my opinion.
I suppose that with each inch of rope given (invested), an exponential
amount of irreversible damage (long-term loss) would simultaneously
occur.
Ok, so much for that (dumb) idea. :)
Well, it was just a thought, after all.
Take care all,
It was a valid question, and gave me pause.
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
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| User: "JJ " |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
12 Feb 2004 02:40:09 AM |
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On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 00:46:12 -0600, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com>
wrote:
<JJ> wrote in message news:uhlj20tpa5h1j416sinq6hj918cnq2msot@4ax.com...
Having read all of the replies thus far (too many to respond to
individually), I have come to the conclusion that while this idea
could make for an entertaining fiction novel (at least to those of us
on this side of the fence), it would, in reality, ultimately backfire.
:)
The posters who said that it's too risky/would likely backfire are
right, in my opinion.
I suppose that with each inch of rope given (invested), an exponential
amount of irreversible damage (long-term loss) would simultaneously
occur.
Ok, so much for that (dumb) idea. :)
Well, it was just a thought, after all.
Take care all,
It was a valid question, and gave me pause.
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
Thanks.
JJ
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
10 Feb 2004 08:32:29 AM |
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In article <ro3h20hip3a4k23qpgb45csqfa772mgmsp@4ax.com>, JJ says...
Here's a thought that occurred to me tonight:
Why don't we simply give the xtians what they want? A theocracy in
America...
Ok, hear me out on this. My thinking here is that although the polls
show that ~90% of Americans "believe" in god, I suspect that a much,
much smaller group of that 90% are fundamentalists, and even less than
that actually ever go to church on Sunday.
It's this smaller group of Americans (the ones that 'say they believe
in god' (but don't ever go to church)) that I am considering here...
Ok, enough ambiguity. Say we allow the xtian fundies to utterly take
over America such that we indeed do have a theocracy on our hands.
Rather than fight it, we instead embrace it (or more accurately,
ignore it for the moment).
Once this event occurs, however, I suspect that people will soon learn
that the devout xtian is, in fact a minority! I only posit this idea
because I think that mainstream society in America is largely secular,
only they don't understand themselves as being so. In other words,
should America become a theocracy "overnight" (or quickly), the public
at large would then have to suddenly abide by the laws of their bible.
Heh! I can see the 'new' America now:
What!? You mean to tell me that I have to go to church every Sunday?
What about the football games?
What? You mean to tell me that I must take time out of my day
everyday and worship the Lord God as it's outlined in the Bible??? I
have to go to work! This is stupid!
What?? You mean to tell me that when my child gets sick that I can't
use my SUV to run over to the doctor and get it fixed? Instead, I
have to drip blood from a sheep around on my carpet and pray instead?
Yet these same people, these typical Americans, enthusiatically answer
'Yes" when asked on the street of whether or not they believe in
'god'.
Amazing, isn't it?
Hell, let's introduce America to the REAL doctrine that is their
beloved Christianity. Then, let's sit back and laugh at their
ultimate response. I suspect that "mainstream" thinking would quickly
overthrow religion very quickly.
Just a thought.
Considering I live in the US.................No.
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557
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| User: "Mr. Peterborough" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
10 Feb 2004 03:56:29 PM |
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JJ <> wrote in message news:<ro3h20hip3a4k23qpgb45csqfa772mgmsp@4ax.com>...
Here's a thought that occurred to me tonight:
Why don't we simply give the xtians what they want? A theocracy in
America...
The christians want respect.
True christians believe in the separation of church and state. Jesus'
kingdom is not of this world.
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| User: "Maverick" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
10 Feb 2004 04:19:44 PM |
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(Mr. Peterborough) wrote in
news:a5676bf8.0402101356.7c782457@posting.google.com:
JJ <> wrote in message
news:<ro3h20hip3a4k23qpgb45csqfa772mgmsp@4ax.com>...
Here's a thought that occurred to me tonight:
Why don't we simply give the xtians what they want? A theocracy in
America...
The christians want respect.
True christians believe in the separation of church and state. Jesus'
kingdom is not of this world.
There seem to be many conflicting opinions between true christians.
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| User: "Woden" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
10 Feb 2004 07:05:48 AM |
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JJ <> wrote in news:ro3h20hip3a4k23qpgb45csqfa772mgmsp@4ax.com:
Here's a thought that occurred to me tonight:
Why don't we simply give the xtians what they want? A theocracy in
America...
(snip)
The biggest problem I see is that some (many) of us non-xians/non-believers
might get hung on those ropes long before and xian theocracy collapses.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
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| User: "Brainfried" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
10 Feb 2004 07:51:44 AM |
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On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 13:05:48 +0000, Woden wrote:
JJ <> wrote in news:ro3h20hip3a4k23qpgb45csqfa772mgmsp@4ax.com:
Here's a thought that occurred to me tonight:
Why don't we simply give the xtians what they want? A theocracy in
America...
(snip)
The biggest problem I see is that some (many) of us non-xians/non-believers
might get hung on those ropes long before and xian theocracy collapses.
I have to agree with this one here. There is a LONG history of civil
rights abuses in the name of gawd. I think we have the right approach,
the seperation of church and state. It's slower, but will have a longer
lasting effect.
The fundies are already demonstrating how stupid they are...
10 Commandments statues.
Airline Pilot shooting his mouth off.
They have plenty of rope already.
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| User: "S Bibby" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
10 Feb 2004 04:08:23 PM |
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JJ <?@?.?.invalid> writes:
Hell, let's introduce America to the REAL doctrine that is their
beloved Christianity. Then, let's sit back and laugh at their
ultimate response. I suspect that "mainstream" thinking would quickly
overthrow religion very quickly.
Just a thought.
JJ
I don't live in your country, but I don't think the onset of the Second
Dark Age would be a laughing matter for anybody. It'll set you back
centuries, make you a lot of enemies, and inflict a heinous amount of
human suffering for centuries to come.
--
Stuart "DA 2 - Transcending Enlightenment" Bibby
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
10 Feb 2004 04:17:59 PM |
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"S Bibby" <Stuart@gaffe.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:tcaX8CRXZVKAFwel@gaffe.demon.co.uk...
JJ <?@?.?.invalid> writes:
Hell, let's introduce America to the REAL doctrine that is their
beloved Christianity. Then, let's sit back and laugh at their
ultimate response. I suspect that "mainstream" thinking would quickly
overthrow religion very quickly.
Just a thought.
JJ
I don't live in your country, but I don't think the onset of the Second
Dark Age would be a laughing matter for anybody. It'll set you back
centuries, make you a lot of enemies, and inflict a heinous amount of
human suffering for centuries to come.
A Dark Age...with nukes. Good point.
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
11 Feb 2004 04:53:27 PM |
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And so upon Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:08:23 +0000 didst S Bibby speak thusly:
JJ <?@?.?.invalid> writes:
Hell, let's introduce America to the REAL doctrine that is their
beloved Christianity. Then, let's sit back and laugh at their
ultimate response. I suspect that "mainstream" thinking would quickly
overthrow religion very quickly.
Just a thought.
JJ
I don't live in your country, but I don't think the onset of the Second
Dark Age would be a laughing matter for anybody. It'll set you back
centuries, make you a lot of enemies, and inflict a heinous amount of
human suffering for centuries to come.
Yeah. Imagine the Taliban but with nukes...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
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| User: "August Pamplona" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
10 Feb 2004 06:55:16 PM |
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In news:tcaX8CRXZVKAFwel@gaffe.demon.co.uk,
S Bibby <Stuart@gaffe.demon.co.uk> typed:
JJ <?@?.?.invalid> writes:
Hell, let's introduce America to the REAL doctrine that is their
beloved Christianity. Then, let's sit back and laugh at their
ultimate response. I suspect that "mainstream" thinking would quickly
overthrow religion very quickly.
Just a thought.
JJ
I don't live in your country, but I don't think the onset of the
Second Dark Age would be a laughing matter for anybody. It'll set you
back centuries, make you a lot of enemies, and inflict a heinous
amount of human suffering for centuries to come.
Humor can be so subjective!
August Pamplona
--
The waterfall in Java is not wet.
- omegazero2003 on m.f.w.
a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut
The address in this message's 'From' field, in accordance with
individual.net's TOS, is real. However, almost all messages
reaching this address are deleted without human intervention.
In other words, if you e-mail me there, I will not receive your message.
To make sure that e-mail messages actually reach me,
make sure that my e-mail address is not hot.
.
|
|
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| User: "S Bibby" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
10 Feb 2004 07:24:03 PM |
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August Pamplona <cosmicaug@hotmail.com> writes:
Hell, let's introduce America to the REAL doctrine that is their
beloved Christianity. Then, let's sit back and laugh at their
ultimate response. I suspect that "mainstream" thinking would quickly
overthrow religion very quickly.
Just a thought.
JJ
I don't live in your country, but I don't think the onset of the
Second Dark Age would be a laughing matter for anybody. It'll set you
back centuries, make you a lot of enemies, and inflict a heinous
amount of human suffering for centuries to come.
Humor can be so subjective!
Humour is a non-consensual act!
--
Stuart "Milk-snorting" Bibby
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| User: "dgillesp" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
10 Feb 2004 07:25:14 AM |
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JJ wrote:
Here's a thought that occurred to me tonight:
Why don't we simply give the xtians what they want? A theocracy in
America...
Ok, hear me out on this. My thinking here is that although the polls
show that ~90% of Americans "believe" in god, I suspect that a much,
much smaller group of that 90% are fundamentalists, and even less than
that actually ever go to church on Sunday.
True.
It's this smaller group of Americans (the ones that 'say they believe
in god' (but don't ever go to church)) that I am considering here...
Ok, enough ambiguity. Say we allow the xtian fundies to utterly take
over America such that we indeed do have a theocracy on our hands.
Not necessarily. Fundies don't agree with each other on many issues.
Rather than fight it, we instead embrace it (or more accurately,
ignore it for the moment).
Once this event occurs, however, I suspect that people will soon learn
that the devout xtian is, in fact a minority! I only posit this idea
because I think that mainstream society in America is largely secular,
only they don't understand themselves as being so.
You are Oh so right on this.
In other words,
should America become a theocracy "overnight" (or quickly), the public
at large would then have to suddenly abide by the laws of their bible.
Heh! I can see the 'new' America now:
What!? You mean to tell me that I have to go to church every Sunday?
Fundies like atheists are great on individual rights, even the right not
to go to church.
What about the football games?
What? You mean to tell me that I must take time out of my day
everyday and worship the Lord God as it's outlined in the Bible??? I
have to go to work! This is stupid!
What?? You mean to tell me that when my child gets sick that I can't
use my SUV to run over to the doctor and get it fixed?
I know lots of fundies and they all make use of medical assistance. A
few pentecostals and Christian Science folks shun doctors.
Instead, I
have to drip blood from a sheep around on my carpet and pray instead?
That's the VooDoo or Santayana sort of thing. You need to get to know
your fundies better.
Yet these same people, these typical Americans, enthusiatically answer
'Yes" when asked on the street of whether or not they believe in
'god'.
People, Americans included, are very complex beings, and never
completely consistent in their beliefs or philosophy--and neither are
atheists, for that matter.
Amazing, isn't it?
Hell, let's introduce America to the REAL doctrine that is their
beloved Christianity. Then, let's sit back and laugh at their
ultimate response. I suspect that "mainstream" thinking would quickly
overthrow religion very quickly.
It has already done so in MHO.
methodios (Denny)
Just a thought.
JJ
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| User: "JJ " |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
11 Feb 2004 02:44:09 AM |
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On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:25:14 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
JJ wrote:
Here's a thought that occurred to me tonight:
Why don't we simply give the xtians what they want? A theocracy in
America...
Ok, hear me out on this. My thinking here is that although the polls
show that ~90% of Americans "believe" in god, I suspect that a much,
much smaller group of that 90% are fundamentalists, and even less than
that actually ever go to church on Sunday.
True.
It's this smaller group of Americans (the ones that 'say they believe
in god' (but don't ever go to church)) that I am considering here...
Ok, enough ambiguity. Say we allow the xtian fundies to utterly take
over America such that we indeed do have a theocracy on our hands.
Not necessarily. Fundies don't agree with each other on many issues.
Rather than fight it, we instead embrace it (or more accurately,
ignore it for the moment).
Once this event occurs, however, I suspect that people will soon learn
that the devout xtian is, in fact a minority! I only posit this idea
because I think that mainstream society in America is largely secular,
only they don't understand themselves as being so.
You are Oh so right on this.
In other words,
should America become a theocracy "overnight" (or quickly), the public
at large would then have to suddenly abide by the laws of their bible.
Heh! I can see the 'new' America now:
What!? You mean to tell me that I have to go to church every Sunday?
Fundies like atheists are great on individual rights, even the right not
to go to church.
What about the football games?
What? You mean to tell me that I must take time out of my day
everyday and worship the Lord God as it's outlined in the Bible??? I
have to go to work! This is stupid!
What?? You mean to tell me that when my child gets sick that I can't
use my SUV to run over to the doctor and get it fixed?
I know lots of fundies and they all make use of medical assistance. A
few pentecostals and Christian Science folks shun doctors.
I have read all of the other replies thus far, and have elected to
singularly reply to your post here only because it intrigues me.
First of all, let me establish the fact that I'm not being
argumentative in any way; I'm just curious.
I fully understand the statement that you made above. However, my
point was that, given a situation where mainstream society was
suddenly forced to abide by the ridiculous biblical teachings of their
bible, many would do a double take and say "Huh?"
I understand that mainstream Christianity has
creatively/apologetically removed the Old Testament laws from applying
to modern society.
I argue, however, that this is wrong (given the supposed statement
made by the xtian jesus that 'not one jot or tittle of the old laws
will change until I return', or something very close to that effect).
Therefore, should America become a theocracy (as I mused in my OP),
then all of America would suddenly be constrained by the rules of
Christianity.
So, at some point, the average Joe and his family would have to come
to some conclusion as to what to do. (For instance when their baby
gets sick.)
Either:
A.) Take the bible literally and spill blood on the carpet (as
outlined in the bible). Or..
B.) Take the child to a doctor.
Hmmm.
Here we are getting to the crux of my OP. Should America ever succumb
to a theocracy, would or would not the average American then see the
idiocy of religion and subsequently revolt?
Instead, I
have to drip blood from a sheep around on my carpet and pray instead?
That's the VooDoo or Santayana sort of thing. You need to get to know
your fundies better.
Yet these same people, these typical Americans, enthusiatically answer
'Yes" when asked on the street of whether or not they believe in
'god'.
People, Americans included, are very complex beings, and never
completely consistent in their beliefs or philosophy--and neither are
atheists, for that matter.
Amazing, isn't it?
Hell, let's introduce America to the REAL doctrine that is their
beloved Christianity. Then, let's sit back and laugh at their
ultimate response. I suspect that "mainstream" thinking would quickly
overthrow religion very quickly.
It has already done so in MHO.
methodios (Denny)
Just a thought.
JJ
.
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| User: "dgillesp" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
11 Feb 2004 11:34:57 AM |
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JJ wrote:
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:25:14 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
JJ wrote:
Here's a thought that occurred to me tonight:
Why don't we simply give the xtians what they want? A theocracy in
America...
Ok, hear me out on this. My thinking here is that although the polls
show that ~90% of Americans "believe" in god, I suspect that a much,
much smaller group of that 90% are fundamentalists, and even less than
that actually ever go to church on Sunday.
True.
It's this smaller group of Americans (the ones that 'say they believe
in god' (but don't ever go to church)) that I am considering here...
Ok, enough ambiguity. Say we allow the xtian fundies to utterly take
over America such that we indeed do have a theocracy on our hands.
Not necessarily. Fundies don't agree with each other on many issues.
Rather than fight it, we instead embrace it (or more accurately,
ignore it for the moment).
Once this event occurs, however, I suspect that people will soon learn
that the devout xtian is, in fact a minority! I only posit this idea
because I think that mainstream society in America is largely secular,
only they don't understand themselves as being so.
You are Oh so right on this.
In other words,
should America become a theocracy "overnight" (or quickly), the public
at large would then have to suddenly abide by the laws of their bible.
Heh! I can see the 'new' America now:
What!? You mean to tell me that I have to go to church every Sunday?
Fundies like atheists are great on individual rights, even the right not
to go to church.
What about the football games?
What? You mean to tell me that I must take time out of my day
everyday and worship the Lord God as it's outlined in the Bible??? I
have to go to work! This is stupid!
What?? You mean to tell me that when my child gets sick that I can't
use my SUV to run over to the doctor and get it fixed?
I know lots of fundies and they all make use of medical assistance. A
few pentecostals and Christian Science folks shun doctors.
I have read all of the other replies thus far, and have elected to
singularly reply to your post here only because it intrigues me.
First of all, let me establish the fact that I'm not being
argumentative in any way; I'm just curious.
I fully understand the statement that you made above. However, my
point was that, given a situation where mainstream society was
suddenly forced to abide by the ridiculous biblical teachings of their
bible, many would do a double take and say "Huh?"
I understand that mainstream Christianity has
creatively/apologetically removed the Old Testament laws from applying
to modern society.
I wouldn't say the OT laws have been removed by mainstream Xns. The
Bible was written by some 40 persons over the course of at least 500
years. It isn't hard to see how the place of law in biblical religion
changed and developed. Jesus Himself was far more concerned for the
spirit of the law than every jot and tittle. E.g.,
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a
tooth [Ex. 21:24]." But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But
whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."
Five times in Matthew 5, he repeatedly moves to the higher level that
which is not always understood in the Old Testament. "You have heard
that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But
I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to
those who hate you..." God, in revealing himself and his truth to the
people (Israel) he had chosen to be his witnesses in the world, the
revelation was gradual or a progressive one.
I argue, however, that this is wrong (given the supposed statement
made by the xtian jesus that 'not one jot or tittle of the old laws
will change until I return', or something very close to that effect).
Therefore, should America become a theocracy (as I mused in my OP),
then all of America would suddenly be constrained by the rules of
Christianity.
So, at some point, the average Joe and his family would have to come
to some conclusion as to what to do. (For instance when their baby
gets sick.)
Either:
A.) Take the bible literally and spill blood on the carpet (as
outlined in the bible). Or..
B.) Take the child to a doctor.
Hmmm.
Here we are getting to the crux of my OP. Should America ever succumb
to a theocracy, would or would not the average American then see the
idiocy of religion and subsequently revolt?
"Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" whether it is
held by theocrats or 'atheistocrats' or 'secularocrats'. The average
American would likely see the idiocy of any absolutist government and
most likely revolt.
Instead, I
have to drip blood from a sheep around on my carpet and pray instead?
That's the VooDoo or Santayana sort of thing. You need to get to know
your fundies better.
Yet these same people, these typical Americans, enthusiatically answer
'Yes" when asked on the street of whether or not they believe in
'god'.
People, Americans included, are very complex beings, and never
completely consistent in their beliefs or philosophy--and neither are
atheists, for that matter.
Amazing, isn't it?
Hell, let's introduce America to the REAL doctrine that is their
beloved Christianity.
Of course, the REAL doctrine of Christianity is understood in a great
variety of ways. You have yours, and I have mine. Fundamentalism sees
it one way. Mainstream sees it another. The historic Church is in best
position to interpret what Christianity is.
Then, let's sit back and laugh at their
ultimate response. I suspect that "mainstream" thinking would quickly
overthrow religion very quickly.
It has already done so in MHO.
methodios (Denny)
Just a thought.
JJ
.
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| User: "JJ " |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
12 Feb 2004 02:37:30 AM |
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On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:34:57 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
JJ wrote:
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:25:14 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
JJ wrote:
Here's a thought that occurred to me tonight:
Why don't we simply give the xtians what they want? A theocracy in
America...
Ok, hear me out on this. My thinking here is that although the polls
show that ~90% of Americans "believe" in god, I suspect that a much,
much smaller group of that 90% are fundamentalists, and even less than
that actually ever go to church on Sunday.
True.
It's this smaller group of Americans (the ones that 'say they believe
in god' (but don't ever go to church)) that I am considering here...
Ok, enough ambiguity. Say we allow the xtian fundies to utterly take
over America such that we indeed do have a theocracy on our hands.
Not necessarily. Fundies don't agree with each other on many issues.
Rather than fight it, we instead embrace it (or more accurately,
ignore it for the moment).
Once this event occurs, however, I suspect that people will soon learn
that the devout xtian is, in fact a minority! I only posit this idea
because I think that mainstream society in America is largely secular,
only they don't understand themselves as being so.
You are Oh so right on this.
In other words,
should America become a theocracy "overnight" (or quickly), the public
at large would then have to suddenly abide by the laws of their bible.
Heh! I can see the 'new' America now:
What!? You mean to tell me that I have to go to church every Sunday?
Fundies like atheists are great on individual rights, even the right not
to go to church.
What about the football games?
What? You mean to tell me that I must take time out of my day
everyday and worship the Lord God as it's outlined in the Bible??? I
have to go to work! This is stupid!
What?? You mean to tell me that when my child gets sick that I can't
use my SUV to run over to the doctor and get it fixed?
I know lots of fundies and they all make use of medical assistance. A
few pentecostals and Christian Science folks shun doctors.
I have read all of the other replies thus far, and have elected to
singularly reply to your post here only because it intrigues me.
First of all, let me establish the fact that I'm not being
argumentative in any way; I'm just curious.
I fully understand the statement that you made above. However, my
point was that, given a situation where mainstream society was
suddenly forced to abide by the ridiculous biblical teachings of their
bible, many would do a double take and say "Huh?"
I understand that mainstream Christianity has
creatively/apologetically removed the Old Testament laws from applying
to modern society.
I wouldn't say the OT laws have been removed by mainstream Xns. The
Bible was written by some 40 persons over the course of at least 500
years. It isn't hard to see how the place of law in biblical religion
changed and developed. Jesus Himself was far more concerned for the
spirit of the law than every jot and tittle. E.g.,
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a
tooth [Ex. 21:24]." But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But
whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."
Five times in Matthew 5, he repeatedly moves to the higher level that
which is not always understood in the Old Testament. "You have heard
that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But
I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to
those who hate you..." God, in revealing himself and his truth to the
people (Israel) he had chosen to be his witnesses in the world, the
revelation was gradual or a progressive one.
But how does one ultimately escape the "jot and tittle" verse (Matthew
5:18, KJV)?
I grant you that the biblical jesus did exhibit signs of morality at
times, but in addition, he did utter the "jot and tittle" verse.
(Among many other hateful things.) If that verse is to be
believed/followed, that means that xtians are to this day bound to the
ridiculous laws of the OT.
As a xtian, how does one get one's head around this? Additionally,
how does one get one's head around the fact that the ridiculous OT
laws were apparently followed (at least presumably) in the time
between the OT and the NT? Why were all of the animal sacrifices/blood
rituals necessary at one time, only to no longer be necessary later?
Did god lose his affinity for blood and fat? If so, why? If not, why
aren't xtians still required to sacrifice animals any more? I mean,
which is it?
If your answer is that the biblical jesus' sacrifice on the supposed
cross absolved all of that, then another question arises along the
very same lines: Why the wait between the OT and the NT to make this
change? Again, we come full circle back to the question of the
biblical god's affinities again.
I would argue that it makes no sense. I would further argue that the
ridiculous rituals as outlined in the OT (Leviticus and Deuteronomy in
particular) make no sense in the first place.
I argue, however, that this is wrong (given the supposed statement
made by the xtian jesus that 'not one jot or tittle of the old laws
will change until I return', or something very close to that effect).
Therefore, should America become a theocracy (as I mused in my OP),
then all of America would suddenly be constrained by the rules of
Christianity.
So, at some point, the average Joe and his family would have to come
to some conclusion as to what to do. (For instance when their baby
gets sick.)
Either:
A.) Take the bible literally and spill blood on the carpet (as
outlined in the bible). Or..
B.) Take the child to a doctor.
Hmmm.
Here we are getting to the crux of my OP. Should America ever succumb
to a theocracy, would or would not the average American then see the
idiocy of religion and subsequently revolt?
"Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" whether it is
held by theocrats or 'atheistocrats' or 'secularocrats'. The average
American would likely see the idiocy of any absolutist government and
most likely revolt.
And you are Oh so right about this. :) (No sarcasm intended.)
Instead, I
have to drip blood from a sheep around on my carpet and pray instead?
That's the VooDoo or Santayana sort of thing. You need to get to know
your fundies better.
Yet these same people, these typical Americans, enthusiatically answer
'Yes" when asked on the street of whether or not they believe in
'god'.
People, Americans included, are very complex beings, and never
completely consistent in their beliefs or philosophy--and neither are
atheists, for that matter.
Amazing, isn't it?
Hell, let's introduce America to the REAL doctrine that is their
beloved Christianity.
Of course, the REAL doctrine of Christianity is understood in a great
variety of ways. You have yours, and I have mine. Fundamentalism sees
it one way. Mainstream sees it another. The historic Church is in best
position to interpret what Christianity is.
Hmmm, so many interpretations; Only one book. Seems to me that if
the one book were written correctly (i.e. truly divinely inspired),
there would only be one interpretation necessary or, better yet,
possible.
This, in fact, stems back to one of the reasons that my idea (that
someone pointed out in response to my OP) was doomed to failure: How
does one pick a theocracy to begin with, given that the xtains
themselves disagree so widely on the biblical texts and their
interpretations/meanings?
With the YECs, OECs, et. al, all in disagreement with each other, who
would preside? How does one define and/or identify the ONE true
(accurate/absolute) xtian religion?
Then, let's sit back and laugh at their
ultimate response. I suspect that "mainstream" thinking would quickly
overthrow religion very quickly.
It has already done so in MHO.
I suspect that you mean that you feel that there are too many 'secular
xtians' in America? (As I (looking back on it) sort of described in
the fifth paragraph of my OP...gee, I may have coined a new term!)
Hmm, I see your point, but from this side of the fence things do look
different, as I'm sure you're well aware.
methodios (Denny)
v/r,
JJ
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
15 Feb 2004 09:21:10 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:25:14 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>,
Message ID: <4028DBBA.7312F099@pemtel.net> wrote in alt.atheism;
JJ wrote:
Here's a thought that occurred to me tonight:
Why don't we simply give the xtians what they want? A theocracy in
America...
Ok, hear me out on this. My thinking here is that although the polls
show that ~90% of Americans "believe" in god, I suspect that a much,
much smaller group of that 90% are fundamentalists, and even less than
that actually ever go to church on Sunday.
True.
It's this smaller group of Americans (the ones that 'say they believe
in god' (but don't ever go to church)) that I am considering here...
Ok, enough ambiguity. Say we allow the xtian fundies to utterly take
over America such that we indeed do have a theocracy on our hands.
Not necessarily. Fundies don't agree with each other on many issues.
Rather than fight it, we instead embrace it (or more accurately,
ignore it for the moment).
Once this event occurs, however, I suspect that people will soon learn
that the devout xtian is, in fact a minority! I only posit this idea
because I think that mainstream society in America is largely secular,
only they don't understand themselves as being so.
You are Oh so right on this.
In other words,
should America become a theocracy "overnight" (or quickly), the public
at large would then have to suddenly abide by the laws of their bible.
Heh! I can see the 'new' America now:
What!? You mean to tell me that I have to go to church every Sunday?
Fundies like atheists are great on individual rights, even the right not
to go to church.
Gosh, once again Denny can't resist bearing false witness. You really
are addicted to your 'father' "Satan."
(snip)
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
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| User: "SMChristenson" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
10 Feb 2004 03:52:17 PM |
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On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 02:33:30 -0600, wrote:
Here's a thought that occurred to me tonight:
Why don't we simply give the xtians what they want? A theocracy in
America...
Well, I don't know. We can't even get lethal injection executions
televised. How are we going to get the Saturday night stonings-to-death
at local sports stadiums like Saudi Arabia (or Life of Brian)?
And if we went whole hog with Leviticus, no catfish (or shellfish,
right?), no pork, and no Sundays at the Mall. Lobbyists would be all over
congressmen like slime on a frog to see that never happens.
I don't know. Americans aren't exactly "old Europe" intellectuals. Might
be what they do think they would like.
.
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| User: "Beowulf" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
10 Feb 2004 10:01:16 AM |
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On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 02:33:30 -0600, JJ <> ejaculated:
Here's a thought that occurred to me tonight:
Why don't we simply give the xtians what they want? A theocracy in
America...
<snip>
Hell, let's introduce America to the REAL doctrine that is their
beloved Christianity. Then, let's sit back and laugh at their
ultimate response. I suspect that "mainstream" thinking would quickly
overthrow religion very quickly.
What makes you think the fascists would let us have our country back
so easily after they took over?
--
What do you get when you multiply 6 by 9?
.
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
10 Feb 2004 09:17:07 PM |
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|
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 02:33:30 -0600, JJ <> thought hard and said:
Here's a thought that occurred to me tonight:
Why don't we simply give the xtians what they want? A theocracy in
America...
Ok, hear me out on this. My thinking here is that although the polls
show that ~90% of Americans "believe" in god, I suspect that a much,
much smaller group of that 90% are fundamentalists, and even less than
that actually ever go to church on Sunday.
It's this smaller group of Americans (the ones that 'say they believe
in god' (but don't ever go to church)) that I am considering here...
Ok, enough ambiguity. Say we allow the xtian fundies to utterly take
over America such that we indeed do have a theocracy on our hands.
Rather than fight it, we instead embrace it (or more accurately,
ignore it for the moment).
Once this event occurs, however, I suspect that people will soon learn
that the devout xtian is, in fact a minority! I only posit this idea
because I think that mainstream society in America is largely secular,
only they don't understand themselves as being so. In other words,
should America become a theocracy "overnight" (or quickly), the public
at large would then have to suddenly abide by the laws of their bible.
Heh! I can see the 'new' America now:
What!? You mean to tell me that I have to go to church every Sunday?
What about the football games?
What? You mean to tell me that I must take time out of my day
everyday and worship the Lord God as it's outlined in the Bible??? I
have to go to work! This is stupid!
What?? You mean to tell me that when my child gets sick that I can't
use my SUV to run over to the doctor and get it fixed? Instead, I
have to drip blood from a sheep around on my carpet and pray instead?
Yet these same people, these typical Americans, enthusiatically answer
'Yes" when asked on the street of whether or not they believe in
'god'.
Amazing, isn't it?
Hell, let's introduce America to the REAL doctrine that is their
beloved Christianity. Then, let's sit back and laugh at their
ultimate response. I suspect that "mainstream" thinking would quickly
overthrow religion very quickly.
Just a thought.
JJ
Hee hee. I love it, meself.
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 15 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, and Krzysztof Penderecki are my Gods.
Madly Insane EAC Scientist.
.
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| User: "JJ " |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
12 Feb 2004 02:53:45 AM |
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On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:17:07 -0600, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 02:33:30 -0600, JJ <> thought hard and said:
Here's a thought that occurred to me tonight:
Why don't we simply give the xtians what they want? A theocracy in
America...
Ok, hear me out on this. My thinking here is that although the polls
show that ~90% of Americans "believe" in god, I suspect that a much,
much smaller group of that 90% are fundamentalists, and even less than
that actually ever go to church on Sunday.
It's this smaller group of Americans (the ones that 'say they believe
in god' (but don't ever go to church)) that I am considering here...
Ok, enough ambiguity. Say we allow the xtian fundies to utterly take
over America such that we indeed do have a theocracy on our hands.
Rather than fight it, we instead embrace it (or more accurately,
ignore it for the moment).
Once this event occurs, however, I suspect that people will soon learn
that the devout xtian is, in fact a minority! I only posit this idea
because I think that mainstream society in America is largely secular,
only they don't understand themselves as being so. In other words,
should America become a theocracy "overnight" (or quickly), the public
at large would then have to suddenly abide by the laws of their bible.
Heh! I can see the 'new' America now:
What!? You mean to tell me that I have to go to church every Sunday?
What about the football games?
What? You mean to tell me that I must take time out of my day
everyday and worship the Lord God as it's outlined in the Bible??? I
have to go to work! This is stupid!
What?? You mean to tell me that when my child gets sick that I can't
use my SUV to run over to the doctor and get it fixed? Instead, I
have to drip blood from a sheep around on my carpet and pray instead?
Yet these same people, these typical Americans, enthusiatically answer
'Yes" when asked on the street of whether or not they believe in
'god'.
Amazing, isn't it?
Hell, let's introduce America to the REAL doctrine that is their
beloved Christianity. Then, let's sit back and laugh at their
ultimate response. I suspect that "mainstream" thinking would quickly
overthrow religion very quickly.
Just a thought.
JJ
Hee hee. I love it, meself.
Thanks. :)
JJ
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 15 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, and Krzysztof Penderecki are my Gods.
Madly Insane EAC Scientist.
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
10 Feb 2004 04:07:45 AM |
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On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 02:33:30 -0600, JJ <> wrote:
Here's a thought that occurred to me tonight:
Why don't we simply give the xtians what they want? A theocracy in
America...
:
Too late.
At least the USA is a theocracy already, by any definition of the
word.
It is my impression that most of the other countries in America are as
well.
.
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: Give the xtians what they want. (Enough rope.) |
10 Feb 2004 08:07:08 AM |
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On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 02:33:30 -0600, JJ <> wrote:
Why don't we simply give the xtians what they want? A theocracy in
America...
That is exactly the same as giving Hitler the government over Germany
in the hope that sanity will get rid of him. Once the fundies are in
control, they will never release it, short of a coupe d'etat.
.
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