God and "Free-Will" (Again)

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Greywolf"
Date:	11 Aug 2005 03:35:17 AM
Object:	God and "Free-Will" (Again)

I'm still waiting to hear from the "heavy hitters" of the religious right.
So in the meantime, I figured I'd post yet another message regarding
free-will.
First: Did "God" have free-will? If so, why did he choose to create evil?
Did he have any choice in the matter?
Second: Assuming God intended man to have the "gift" of free-will all along,
why the, "tree of knowledge" in "paradise" bit? Are we to assume that
partaking of the forbidden fruit was not "evil" in itself but mere
disobedience? What did God have to gain by placing it there? Did "God" place
it there because he knew, in advance, that his two favorite creatures would
disobey him and thus allow him to unleash "sin" upon the world? And what is
the point in punishing mindless disobedience with "original sin," and the
heinous passing of this vile contagion on to generations of people who did
no wrong? And how is it that an infinitely loving, merciful, and
compassionate "God" could mete out such harsh punishment?
Third: Assuming all the holy babble stuff is true, it means that God
provided A&E with free-will because he didn't want Ken and Barbie traipsing
all over his earthly paradise like a mindless "robot" or "zombie." Okay. But
at some point in the future, we are told, Satan and all his henchmen will be
eradicated. Evil will exist no more. Does this then mean we'll have a heaven
full of mindless robots or zombies traipsing all over God's "creation"?
Now please, I beg you, not the same old tired crap by way of response. If
don't have anything stimulating to say, don't say it.
(Unless you're trashing trolls, then say anything you damn please. But, then
again, that *would* be stimulating, wouldn't it?)
Oh, how about a couple of you right-wing evangelical "intellectuals" getting
in on this for a change?
Greywolf
.

User: "Guitar George"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	11 Aug 2005 07:22:45 AM

Dude, you don't question God's actions! You just obey! If you wish to
exercise your "free will" and NOT obey, there's always the eternal hot
house ha ha. Don't you love this religion (not!).
Guitar George
.

User: "Greywolf"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	11 Aug 2005 09:01:13 AM

"Guitar George" <a01a01@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1123762965.601223.146840@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Jahwohl! Mein ... oops. I was thinking you were a member of some other
group. Sorry.
Greywolf
.

User: "Michael Gray"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	11 Aug 2005 09:05:31 PM

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:01:13 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:

"Guitar George" <a01a01@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1123762965.601223.146840@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Jahwohl! Mein ... oops. I was thinking you were a member of some other
group. Sorry.

Greywolf

At least their leader was known to have existed, which is a lot more
than you can say for the delusional sky-pixie cheerleaders.
.

User: "Greywolf"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	12 Aug 2005 01:08:36 AM

"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:810of114j8ktpeqkf4e5nihi4ap578c8f3@4ax.com...

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:01:13 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:

"Guitar George" <a01a01@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1123762965.601223.146840@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Jahwohl! Mein ... oops. I was thinking you were a member of some other
group. Sorry.

Greywolf

At least their leader was known to have existed, which is a lot more
than you can say for the delusional sky-pixie cheerleaders.

Tell me about it. At least he didn't have his "soldiers" going around
begging for money incessantly.
Greywolf
.

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	14 Aug 2005 10:57:39 PM

On 11 Aug 2005 05:22:45 -0700, "Guitar George" <a01a01@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Dude, you don't question God's actions! You just obey! If you wish to
exercise your "free will" and NOT obey, there's always the eternal hot
house ha ha. Don't you love this religion (not!).

You forgot; believe, obey, and burn anyway.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.

User: ""
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	11 Aug 2005 08:27:08 AM

Greywolf wrote:

I'm still waiting to hear from the "heavy hitters" of the religious right.

Maybe none want to talk to you. Perhaps you could try for
some heavy hitters of the religious left? There must be
some of them around...
Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
.

User: "David Roman"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	12 Aug 2005 11:48:34 AM

Greywolf wrote:

I'm still waiting to hear from the "heavy hitters" of the religious right.
So in the meantime, I figured I'd post yet another message regarding
free-will.

Greywolf,
I'd like to respond to your post but I would not call myself part of
the religious right. I'm more of an Independent politically. I have
no hatred or disdain for anyone who has views that are different from
mine. I understand that I will be considered a loon by most in this
newsgroup but that's OK with me. My views on Christian matters would
make me look worse to the religious right than atheists.

First: Did "God" have free-will? If so, why did he choose to create evil?
Did he have any choice in the matter?

I think the answers to your questions above depend on how you define
"free will". I think to a certain extent that "free will" is a myth.
According to dictionary.com a will is the mental faculty by which one
deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action. I personally
believe how a person gets to the point of deliberately choosing or
deciding on a course of action is not free. All choices are caused by
external circumstances, whether you see them or feel them. There is no
such thing as uncaused choices. When talking about free will I have to
wonder what the will is free from?
There are people who say God created the earth and the human race out
of his free will. To them I say "really"? There are no circumstances
that caused God to want to create the earth and its inhabitants? If
God had a desire to create the earth and his inhabitants because (for
arguments sake) he was lonely, then isn't the lonliness and desire
itself the catalyst for the earth's creation?
These are things I question about God's free will. While I am not a
Calvinist, I do not believe mankind has a free will. The scriptures
teach that God works all things after the counsel of his own will and
that God does his will among the armies of heaven and the inhabitants
of the earth. If that is true, then the causes for all the choices
every human being makes every day, seen or unseen, ultimately come from
God. Granted, I'm not saying that if you respond to this post that God
is manipulating your hands to type your response. What I am saying is
that (in my belief) God has placed you in situations to believe a
certain way, to act a certain way, to question a certain way, ect...I
mean, your desire to post about free will didn't just come out of the
blue. Perhaps a previous debate with someone else on the "religious
right" prompted you to revisit this topic again. I don't think it's
possible for me to put into words the circumstances that has happened
in both of our lives that has caused a desire for you to post on this
topic and for me the desire to respond to this topic.
I believe that God created evil and that he did so with a purpose. The
scriptures teach that Jesus Christ was slain before the foundation of
the world. His sacrifice for the sin of all humanity was planned out
before Adam and Eve were created. It's ridiculous for any Christian to
teach that the "serpent" ruined God's plan of Adam and Eve living in
bliss for the rest of their lives. When Adam and Eve ate the "fruit"
God declared "Behold, man has become like one of us having a knowledge
of good and evil." His response was not "oh no, look what has happened
to my creation!" I believe God created evil as a means for his
creation to come to a knowledge of good and evil. Before Adam and Eve
ate of the fruit they had no knowledge of good or evil.

Second: Assuming God intended man to have the "gift" of free-will all along,
why the, "tree of knowledge" in "paradise" bit?

I don't believe God has given man the "gift" of free will. There is
not one passage in scripture that declares such a thing. Most
Christians teach that with such assurance as if there are plenty of
passages that say man has the gift of free will. However, there are an
abundance of passages that talk about God's sovereignty.

Are we to assume that
partaking of the forbidden fruit was not "evil" in itself but mere
disobedience?

It was disobedience, but Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge of
good or evil until after they ate the fruit. There is no question that
God set up Adam and Eve for their fall. You or I, or anyone one else
in this world would not have fared better than Adam and Eve given the
circumstances.

What did God have to gain by placing it there?

I don't know if it's an issue of God gaining something. I do think the
purpose so that his creation would have knowledge of good and evil.
Why he went the route of using a tree and fruit I really don't know.

Did "God" place
it there because he knew, in advance, that his two favorite creatures would
disobey him and thus allow him to unleash "sin" upon the world?

Absolutely.

And what is
the point in punishing mindless disobedience with "original sin," and the
heinous passing of this vile contagion on to generations of people who did
no wrong? And how is it that an infinitely loving, merciful, and
compassionate "God" could mete out such harsh punishment?

He can mete out such harsh punishments because he is a Father as well.
It is my belief that punishment serves a purpose and that purpose is
not to see human beings suffer and writhe in pain and anguish. Any
good parent punishes his child to produce a change in their children so
they will do what is right instead of doing what is wrong. I expect no
less from a Heavenly Father who is described as Perfect and who teaches
us to love your enemies.
The scriptures teach that God wills all men to be saved and come to a
knowledge of the truth. The scriptures teach that God is the Savior of
ALL men, especially (but not exclusively) believers. The Lord's Prayer
goes like, "Our Father, who art in Heaven, Hallowed by Thy Name. Thy
kingdom come, *thy will be done*, on Earth as it is in Heaven..."
Christians have a tough time believing that God will actually carry out
his will on Earth and in Heaven of saving all men and they are using
the false doctrine of free will in an attempt to get God off the hook.
They put the responsibility on man to find a savior when the scriptures
explicitly teach that Jesus came to seek and to save what was lost.
There is a parable of the lost sheep where the Shepherd (Jesus) goes
out to search for his lost sheep and he keeps searching until he finds
the sheep. Christians teach that the Shepherd will look for the lost
sheep until it is too late. In Jesus' own words he said, "If I am
lifted up I will draw all men to myself". Most Christians don't
believe it. Most Christians teach that Jesus paid the price for all
sin....except the sin of not believing Jesus died for all sin.
When certain translators deliberately mistranslate certain words and
inject a free will doctrine into their teachings, you get a gospel that
mocks God and turns God into a terrorist that is a billion times worse
than any dictator or terrorist in the history of mankind. Not only
that, but in order to protect such a doctrine they have to make up more
stories about how God is being constantly tricked by Satan, Adam & Eve,
ect...they make him look like a God that has lost control of
everything. I personally believe the gospel was perverted by the early
church to keep control of people. As we all know, whoever has the
control has the money and the power.

Third: Assuming all the holy babble stuff is true, it means that God
provided A&E with free-will because he didn't want Ken and Barbie traipsing
all over his earthly paradise like a mindless "robot" or "zombie." Okay. But
at some point in the future, we are told, Satan and all his henchmen will be
eradicated. Evil will exist no more. Does this then mean we'll have a heaven
full of mindless robots or zombies traipsing all over God's "creation"?

No because all who are saved will have a knowledge of good and evil.

Now please, I beg you, not the same old tired crap by way of response. If
don't have anything stimulating to say, don't say it.
(Unless you're trashing trolls, then say anything you damn please. But, then
again, that *would* be stimulating, wouldn't it?)

Oh, how about a couple of you right-wing evangelical "intellectuals" getting
in on this for a change?

Greywolf

I'm really not right wing evangelical. As a matter of fact, I'd be
labeled by the right wing evangelicals as a left wing heretic. I'm
probably still a loon to atheists. That's all OK with me. I don't
have anything against atheists. As a matter of fact, I've never met an
atheist in person that I didn't like.
Sorry if I got a little to preachy for your tastes.
.

User: "thomas p"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	12 Aug 2005 03:07:29 PM

On 12 Aug 2005 09:48:34 -0700, "David Roman"
<davidroman28dontspamme@yahoo.com> wrote:

Greywolf wrote:

I'm still waiting to hear from the "heavy hitters" of the religious right.
So in the meantime, I figured I'd post yet another message regarding
free-will.

snip

I believe that God created evil and that he did so with a purpose. The
scriptures teach that Jesus Christ was slain before the foundation of
the world. His sacrifice for the sin of all humanity was planned out
before Adam and Eve were created. It's ridiculous for any Christian to
teach that the "serpent" ruined God's plan of Adam and Eve living in
bliss for the rest of their lives. When Adam and Eve ate the "fruit"
God declared "Behold, man has become like one of us having a knowledge
of good and evil." His response was not "oh no, look what has happened
to my creation!" I believe God created evil as a means for his
creation to come to a knowledge of good and evil.

The last sentence makes no sense.

Before Adam and Eve
ate of the fruit they had no knowledge of good or evil.

What was wrong about that?
snip
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)

.

User: "David Roman"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	12 Aug 2005 05:44:50 PM

thomas p wrote:

On 12 Aug 2005 09:48:34 -0700, "David Roman"
<davidroman28dontspamme@yahoo.com> wrote:

Greywolf wrote:

I'm still waiting to hear from the "heavy hitters" of the religious right.
So in the meantime, I figured I'd post yet another message regarding
free-will.

snip

The last sentence makes no sense.

I agree. I must have been in the middle of typing, got distracted with
something, and continued with a different thought. Sorry about that.
I really can't recall what I meant to type.
.

User: "thomas p"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	13 Aug 2005 09:27:41 AM

On 12 Aug 2005 15:44:50 -0700, "David Roman"
<davidroman28dontspamme@yahoo.com> wrote:

thomas p wrote:

On 12 Aug 2005 09:48:34 -0700, "David Roman"
<davidroman28dontspamme@yahoo.com> wrote:

Greywolf wrote:

I'm still waiting to hear from the "heavy hitters" of the religious right.
So in the meantime, I figured I'd post yet another message regarding
free-will.

snip

The last sentence makes no sense.

I agree. I must have been in the middle of typing, got distracted with
something, and continued with a different thought. Sorry about that.
I really can't recall what I meant to type.

Oh good, then you don't believe that god created evil.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)

.

User: "David Roman"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	13 Aug 2005 02:59:23 PM

thomas p wrote:

On 12 Aug 2005 15:44:50 -0700, "David Roman"
<davidroman28dontspamme@yahoo.com> wrote:

thomas p wrote:

On 12 Aug 2005 09:48:34 -0700, "David Roman"
<davidroman28dontspamme@yahoo.com> wrote:

Greywolf wrote:

I'm still waiting to hear from the "heavy hitters" of the religious right.
So in the meantime, I figured I'd post yet another message regarding
free-will.

snip

The last sentence makes no sense.

I agree. I must have been in the middle of typing, got distracted with
something, and continued with a different thought. Sorry about that.
I really can't recall what I meant to type.

Oh good, then you don't believe that god created evil.

I do believe that because the scriptures teach it.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make shalom, and
create evil. I am the LORD, who does all these things.
Evil in this passage is the Hebrew word Ra. Ra is translated in
hundreds of other places in the Old Testament as evil.
.

User: "Greywolf"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	13 Aug 2005 10:18:04 PM

"David Roman" <davidroman28dontspamme@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1123963163.640617.304210@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

thomas p wrote:

On 12 Aug 2005 15:44:50 -0700, "David Roman"
<davidroman28dontspamme@yahoo.com> wrote:

thomas p wrote:

On 12 Aug 2005 09:48:34 -0700, "David Roman"
<davidroman28dontspamme@yahoo.com> wrote:

Greywolf wrote:

I'm still waiting to hear from the "heavy hitters" of the religious
right.
So in the meantime, I figured I'd post yet another message
regarding
free-will.

snip

I believe that God created evil and that he did so with a purpose.
The
scriptures teach that Jesus Christ was slain before the foundation of
the world. His sacrifice for the sin of all humanity was planned out
before Adam and Eve were created. It's ridiculous for any Christian
to
teach that the "serpent" ruined God's plan of Adam and Eve living in
bliss for the rest of their lives. When Adam and Eve ate the "fruit"
God declared "Behold, man has become like one of us having a
knowledge
of good and evil." His response was not "oh no, look what has
happened
to my creation!" I believe God created evil as a means for his
creation to come to a knowledge of good and evil.

The last sentence makes no sense.

I agree. I must have been in the middle of typing, got distracted with
something, and continued with a different thought. Sorry about that.
I really can't recall what I meant to type.

Oh good, then you don't believe that god created evil.

I do believe that because the scriptures teach it.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make shalom, and
create evil. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Evil in this passage is the Hebrew word Ra. Ra is translated in
hundreds of other places in the Old Testament as evil.

Dont forget Jn. 1:3 and Col. 1:16 in the New Testament.
Greywolf
.

User: "thomas p"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	14 Aug 2005 04:07:24 AM

On 13 Aug 2005 12:59:23 -0700, "David Roman"
<davidroman28dontspamme@yahoo.com> wrote:

thomas p wrote:

On 12 Aug 2005 15:44:50 -0700, "David Roman"
<davidroman28dontspamme@yahoo.com> wrote:

thomas p wrote:

On 12 Aug 2005 09:48:34 -0700, "David Roman"
<davidroman28dontspamme@yahoo.com> wrote:

Greywolf wrote:

I'm still waiting to hear from the "heavy hitters" of the religious right.
So in the meantime, I figured I'd post yet another message regarding
free-will.

snip

The last sentence makes no sense.

I agree. I must have been in the middle of typing, got distracted with
something, and continued with a different thought. Sorry about that.
I really can't recall what I meant to type.

Oh good, then you don't believe that god created evil.

I do believe that because the scriptures teach it.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make shalom, and
create evil. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Evil in this passage is the Hebrew word Ra. Ra is translated in
hundreds of other places in the Old Testament as evil.

And, since it makes no sense at all, that would mean the Bible is
nonsense. I am glad that is settled.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)

.

User: "David Roman"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	14 Aug 2005 06:54:21 AM

thomas p wrote:

Oh good, then you don't believe that god created evil.

I do believe that because the scriptures teach it.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make shalom, and
create evil. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Evil in this passage is the Hebrew word Ra. Ra is translated in
hundreds of other places in the Old Testament as evil.

And, since it makes no sense at all,

What does not make sense to you about the passage?

that would mean the Bible is nonsense.

I personally don't care if you have that opinion, but I would think
there are other passages in the scriptures that would be harder to
understand than this one.
.

User: "thomas p"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	14 Aug 2005 02:04:35 PM

On 14 Aug 2005 04:54:21 -0700, "David Roman"
<davidroman28dontspamme@yahoo.com> wrote:

thomas p wrote:

Oh good, then you don't believe that god created evil.

I do believe that because the scriptures teach it.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make shalom, and
create evil. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Evil in this passage is the Hebrew word Ra. Ra is translated in
hundreds of other places in the Old Testament as evil.

And, since it makes no sense at all,

What does not make sense to you about the passage?

that would mean the Bible is nonsense.

I personally don't care if you have that opinion, but I would think
there are other passages in the scriptures that would be harder to
understand than this one.

There is no sensible reason for god to have created evil.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)

.

User: "Michael Gray"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	14 Aug 2005 04:48:44 PM

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 21:04:35 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
:

There is no sensible reason for god to have created evil.

:
You should have shortened that sentence to:
"There is no sensible reason for god"
.

User: "Apostate"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	14 Aug 2005 07:00:38 PM

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 21:04:35 +0200, thomas p <tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:

On 14 Aug 2005 04:54:21 -0700, "David Roman"
<davidroman28dontspamme@yahoo.com> wrote:

thomas p wrote:

Oh good, then you don't believe that god created evil.

I do believe that because the scriptures teach it.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make shalom, and
create evil. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Evil in this passage is the Hebrew word Ra. Ra is translated in
hundreds of other places in the Old Testament as evil.

And, since it makes no sense at all,

What does not make sense to you about the passage?

that would mean the Bible is nonsense.

I personally don't care if you have that opinion, but I would think
there are other passages in the scriptures that would be harder to
understand than this one.

There is no sensible reason for god to have created evil.

<shakes head in disbelief>
Sheesh! How'd we learn to grapple with it, if it didn't exist in the forst place?

Thomas P.

"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"

(Kierkegaard)

--
/Apostate
alt.atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by Lani_girl, first post; Billions Served!
I doubt, therefore I might be.
e-mail to lower-case only
.

User: "thomas p"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	16 Aug 2005 11:20:53 AM

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:00:38 -0400, Apostate
<apostate.invalid.still@yeehaw.org> wrote:

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 21:04:35 +0200, thomas p <tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:

On 14 Aug 2005 04:54:21 -0700, "David Roman"
<davidroman28dontspamme@yahoo.com> wrote:

thomas p wrote:

Oh good, then you don't believe that god created evil.

I do believe that because the scriptures teach it.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make shalom, and
create evil. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Evil in this passage is the Hebrew word Ra. Ra is translated in
hundreds of other places in the Old Testament as evil.

And, since it makes no sense at all,

What does not make sense to you about the passage?

that would mean the Bible is nonsense.

I personally don't care if you have that opinion, but I would think
there are other passages in the scriptures that would be harder to
understand than this one.

There is no sensible reason for god to have created evil.

<shakes head in disbelief>

Sheesh! How'd we learn to grapple with it, if it didn't exist in the forst place?

It's amazing isn't it? That is exactly the argument used by more than
a few theists David included. Every time I see it I am appalled by
the total refusal to see the illogic of it.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)

.

User: "DanielSan"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	14 Aug 2005 02:04:30 PM

thomas p wrote:

On 14 Aug 2005 04:54:21 -0700, "David Roman"
<davidroman28dontspamme@yahoo.com> wrote:

thomas p wrote:

Oh good, then you don't believe that god created evil.

I do believe that because the scriptures teach it.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make shalom, and
create evil. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Evil in this passage is the Hebrew word Ra. Ra is translated in
hundreds of other places in the Old Testament as evil.

And, since it makes no sense at all,

What does not make sense to you about the passage?

that would mean the Bible is nonsense.

I personally don't care if you have that opinion, but I would think
there are other passages in the scriptures that would be harder to
understand than this one.

There is no sensible reason for god to have created evil.

Satan probably said it best in the South Park movie:
"Without evil, there can be no good, so it must be good to be evil
sometimes."
Or something. ;-)
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, *
* the non-existence of Zeus or Thor - but they *
* have few followers now." Arthur C. Clarke *
****************************************************
.

User: "thomas p"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	16 Aug 2005 02:16:13 AM

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 19:04:30 GMT, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com>
wrote:

thomas p wrote:

On 14 Aug 2005 04:54:21 -0700, "David Roman"
<davidroman28dontspamme@yahoo.com> wrote:

thomas p wrote:

Oh good, then you don't believe that god created evil.

I do believe that because the scriptures teach it.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make shalom, and
create evil. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Evil in this passage is the Hebrew word Ra. Ra is translated in
hundreds of other places in the Old Testament as evil.

And, since it makes no sense at all,

What does not make sense to you about the passage?

that would mean the Bible is nonsense.

I personally don't care if you have that opinion, but I would think
there are other passages in the scriptures that would be harder to
understand than this one.

There is no sensible reason for god to have created evil.

Satan probably said it best in the South Park movie:

"Without evil, there can be no good, so it must be good to be evil
sometimes."

Or something. ;-)

The entire story is so transparently silly that it is depressing that
people are willing to swallow it and become furious if anyone points
out the idiocies. The little boy says the Emperor has no clothes, and
the crowd attacks him.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)

.

User: "Apostate"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	12 Aug 2005 02:25:06 PM

On 12 Aug 2005 09:48:34 -0700, "David Roman" <davidroman28dontspamme@yahoo.com> wrote:
<inter alia>

So this is kind of like when I invent a purvelmirtsch so that my fellow humans may come to
a knowledge of prunes and purvelmirtsches? There isn't anything a bit -- odd -- about
that sort of purpose, is there?
--
/Apostate
alt.atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by Lani_girl, first post; Billions Served!
I doubt, therefore I might be.
e-mail to lower-case only
.

User: "johac"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	12 Aug 2005 02:13:10 AM

In article <11fm3e8i0srl570@corp.supernews.com>,
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote:

I'm still waiting to hear from the "heavy hitters" of the religious right.

Heavy hitters? All I've seen is a few nerf balls lobbed over this way.

So in the meantime, I figured I'd post yet another message regarding
free-will.

First: Did "God" have free-will? If so, why did he choose to create evil?
Did he have any choice in the matter?

If a god had free will and created evil, then that god must be at least
in part evil.

Second: Assuming God intended man to have the "gift" of free-will all along,
why the, "tree of knowledge" in "paradise" bit? Are we to assume that
partaking of the forbidden fruit was not "evil" in itself but mere
disobedience? What did God have to gain by placing it there? Did "God" place
it there because he knew, in advance, that his two favorite creatures would
disobey him and thus allow him to unleash "sin" upon the world? And what is
the point in punishing mindless disobedience with "original sin," and the
heinous passing of this vile contagion on to generations of people who did
no wrong? And how is it that an infinitely loving, merciful, and
compassionate "God" could mete out such harsh punishment?

The only conclusion would be that instead of all good, the god would
have been a cruel sadist.

Well since those in 'Heaven ' will be saved, and according to some
mythology, they will derive all their pleasure just by being close to
their god, what would they need free will for? Of course this idea of
'Heaven' sounds like hell to me so I would much prefer oblivion.

Now please, I beg you, not the same old tired crap by way of response. If
don't have anything stimulating to say, don't say it.
(Unless you're trashing trolls, then say anything you damn please. But, then
again, that *would* be stimulating, wouldn't it?

Oh, how about a couple of you right-wing evangelical "intellectuals" getting
in on this for a change?

'Evangelical intrellectual' ?

Greywolf

--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
.

User: "Greywolf"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	12 Aug 2005 07:46:42 PM

"johac" <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote in message
news:jhachm-2062AD.00131012082005@news.giganews.com...

In article <11fm3e8i0srl570@corp.supernews.com>,
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote:

I'm still waiting to hear from the "heavy hitters" of the religious
right.

Heavy hitters? All I've seen is a few nerf balls lobbed over this way.

So in the meantime, I figured I'd post yet another message regarding
free-will.

First: Did "God" have free-will? If so, why did he choose to create evil?
Did he have any choice in the matter?

If a god had free will and created evil, then that god must be at least
in part evil.

Second: Assuming God intended man to have the "gift" of free-will all
along,
why the, "tree of knowledge" in "paradise" bit? Are we to assume that
partaking of the forbidden fruit was not "evil" in itself but mere
disobedience? What did God have to gain by placing it there? Did "God"
place
it there because he knew, in advance, that his two favorite creatures
would
disobey him and thus allow him to unleash "sin" upon the world? And what
is
the point in punishing mindless disobedience with "original sin," and the
heinous passing of this vile contagion on to generations of people who
did
no wrong? And how is it that an infinitely loving, merciful, and
compassionate "God" could mete out such harsh punishment?

The only conclusion would be that instead of all good, the god would
have been a cruel sadist.

Third: Assuming all the holy babble stuff is true, it means that God
provided A&E with free-will because he didn't want Ken and Barbie
traipsing
all over his earthly paradise like a mindless "robot" or "zombie." Okay.
But
at some point in the future, we are told, Satan and all his henchmen will
be
eradicated. Evil will exist no more. Does this then mean we'll have a
heaven
full of mindless robots or zombies traipsing all over God's "creation"?

Oh, how about a couple of you right-wing evangelical "intellectuals"
getting
in on this for a change?

'Evangelical intrellectual' ?

Greywolf

--
John Hachmann aa #1782

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit
atrocities"
-Voltaire

"The only conclusion would be that instead of all good, the god would

have been a cruel sadist."

Hmmmm. You know, *that* being would come closer to, "The Ruler of this
World," than the "other" one. But, there is no proof he exists either. I'm
afraid it's just up to us *people* to be good and kind to each other. As for
"evil," we sorta become that way ourselves, don't we?
Greywolf
.

User: "johac"
Title: Re: God and "Free-Will" (Again)	13 Aug 2005 01:52:40 AM

In article <11fqgnpsar1uiad@corp.supernews.com>,
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote: