| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"RCMan" |
| Date: |
25 Dec 2003 08:41:03 PM |
| Object: |
#God, as We Hadn't Seen Him |
God, as We Hadn't Seen Him
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29183-2003Dec24.html
By E. J. Dionne Jr.
Thursday, December 25, 2003;
My 6-year-old rummages around in our Christmas boxes looking for the
figures to place in the Nativity scene. "Where is Joseph?" she asks
urgently. Joseph eventually turns up, and she happily places him where
he belongs, near the baby Jesus.
But 6-year-olds are among our best theologians because they ask the
difficult questions. We were driving together a few days later, and
she wanted to know how Jesus could be the Son of God when His father
was Joseph.
My daughter's curiosity is delightful -- and humbling. I am no
theologian and know that my answers to her were thoroughly inadequate.
So, therefore, are my answers to myself.
Christmas is like that, a season of joy and affirmation that can also
prompt intense questioning about the nature of the event being
celebrated. It is a matter that cannot be settled by going to the
videotape.
The core claim of Christianity, that God sent His Son to redeem the
world, is one of the most liberating concepts in human history. It
revolutionized the idea of who God is -- a distant, all-powerful ruler
transformed into a fellow pilgrim working in solidarity with His
creation.
This, I think, explains why the Nativity scene has inspired creativity
in art, music and poetry across all cultures in which Christianity has
found a home. The immediate attraction of the moment is obvious enough
-- the joy of new birth, the young couple forced to experience this
joy in a stable surrounded by farm animals. "Why lies He in such mean
estate?" asks the hymn.
But that points to the Nativity's larger appeal. It depicts a
vulnerable God, a helpless child, the "little Lord Jesus asleep on the
hay." The Christmas hymns are eloquent in explaining the historical
moment. "Born to raise the sons of Earth," "God and sinners
reconciled" -- this is about a universal quest for liberation from
human frailty and failure.
Understanding Christmas in this way explains the power of Christianity
in the face of all its difficulties. So many Christian testimonies
speak of a God who chooses to identify with suffering human beings.
I recently ran across this passage from the great German theologian
Jurgen Moltmann. It suggests that for all his formidable intellectual
power, his attraction to Christianity was, finally, personal. "In
1945," he wrote, "I was imprisoned in a wretched prisoner of war camp
in Belgium. The German Reich had collapsed. German civilization had
been destroyed through Auschwitz. My hometown Hamburg lay in ruins;
and in my own self things looked no different. I felt abandoned by God
and human beings, and the hopes of my youth died. . . .
"In this situation, an American chaplain put a Bible into my hands and
I began to read it. . . . I was drawn to the story of the passion, and
when I came to Jesus' death cry, I knew: this is the one who
understands you and is beside you when everyone else abandons you. 'My
God, why have you forsaken me?' . . . I began to understand the
suffering, assailed and God-forsaken Jesus because I felt he
understood me. And I began to understand that this Jesus is the divine
Brother in our distress."
Now the skeptic can ask whether this reaction says anything at all
about Jesus and the divine. Is it instead a commentary on a human
being seeking, well, tidings of comfort and joy in a very hard
circumstance? In his masterpiece of nearly 40 years ago, "Belief and
Unbelief," the Catholic writer Michael Novak asked how the believer
"can assure himself that he is not talking about nothing at all, in a
void peopled by his own imaginings." At another point, Novak asks:
"How does one know that one's belief is truly in God, not merely in
some habitual emotion or pattern of response?"
For many, of course, "habitual emotion" is another way of describing
an experience of the divine that is no less authentic for being a
habit.
As I said earlier, I am no theologian. I am, however, drawn to those
theologians who themselves struggle with what we know and what we
don't. "If God is God," wrote the Christian writer Jacques Ellul, "he
obviously cannot be totally known or circumscribed or put into a human
formula. There is always something more to know and understand and
receive."
My hunch is that if God is God, the Christmas story offers an insight
that is more than a human invention. The idea that the divine would
choose to embrace His creation reflects a yearning, but also a
realistic hope. It's why they call it good news.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: #God, as We Hadn't Seen Him |
26 Dec 2003 06:14:00 AM |
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And so upon Thu, 25 Dec 2003 18:41:03 -0800 didst RCMan speak thusly:
My hunch is that if God is God, the Christmas story offers an insight
that is more than a human invention. The idea that the divine would
choose to embrace His creation reflects a yearning, but also a
realistic hope. It's why they call it good news.
Actually, that's rather stupid.
If there *is anything "out there" powerful enough to create life, maybe we
don't *want its attention. It could have created us as an experiment and
might not like how things are going...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: #God, as We Hadn't Seen Him |
25 Dec 2003 11:18:17 PM |
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On 25 Dec 2003 18:41:03 -0800, (RCMan) posted to
alt.atheism:
My hunch is that if God is God, the Christmas story offers an insight
that is more than a human invention.
And if he isn't, he isn't.
The entire post says nothing at all.
--
Zymurgist # 2
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "zepp" |
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| Title: Re: #God, as We Hadn't Seen Him |
26 Dec 2003 12:21:30 AM |
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On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 00:18:17 -0500, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On 25 Dec 2003 18:41:03 -0800, (RCMan) posted to
alt.atheism:
My hunch is that if God is God, the Christmas story offers an insight
that is more than a human invention.
And if he isn't, he isn't.
The entire post says nothing at all.
Happened to catch part of an interesting documentary on the History
Channel: "Who wrote the Bible?"
In it, they talk about the second century Coptic texts that form what
is basically the gospel according to Thomas. It contains some 191
things that Jesus supposedly said, many of them familiar to
Christians.
What is MORE interesting to me is that the collection of sayings is
that: a collection of sayings. No miracles, no professions of
divinity, no reference to prophets. Just a notebooks of Lazurus Long
type of thing.
Second century. Much closer to source material than just about
anything else the Christians have.
-
"...too many whites are getting away with drug use."
-- Rush Limbaugh, on his short lived TV show
October 5, 1995
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays
.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: #God, as We Hadn't Seen Him |
26 Dec 2003 01:09:15 PM |
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"zepp" <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com> wrote in message
news:ukknuv4t0ckbi54pf3r9m0eqcuscdn46og@4ax.com...
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 00:18:17 -0500, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On 25 Dec 2003 18:41:03 -0800, (RCMan) posted to
alt.atheism:
My hunch is that if God is God, the Christmas story offers an insight
that is more than a human invention.
And if he isn't, he isn't.
The entire post says nothing at all.
Happened to catch part of an interesting documentary on the History
Channel: "Who wrote the Bible?"
http://www.jamesarthur.net/mm.html
Hehe
It was all a mushroom trip !
--
Ho hum
Jez
"Few of us can easily surrender our belief that
society must somehow make sense. The thought
that the State has lost its mind and is punishing so
many innocent people is intolerable. And so the
evidence has to be internally denied."
- Arthur Miller
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| User: "zepp" |
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| Title: Re: #God, as We Hadn't Seen Him |
26 Dec 2003 09:36:25 PM |
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On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 19:09:15 -0000, "Jez"
<iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
"zepp" <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com> wrote in message
news:ukknuv4t0ckbi54pf3r9m0eqcuscdn46og@4ax.com...
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 00:18:17 -0500, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On 25 Dec 2003 18:41:03 -0800, (RCMan) posted to
alt.atheism:
My hunch is that if God is God, the Christmas story offers an insight
that is more than a human invention.
And if he isn't, he isn't.
The entire post says nothing at all.
Happened to catch part of an interesting documentary on the History
Channel: "Who wrote the Bible?"
http://www.jamesarthur.net/mm.html
Hehe
It was all a mushroom trip !
And in fact, psyllosybin grows all over the island of Patmos...
-
"...too many whites are getting away with drug use."
-- Rush Limbaugh, on his short lived TV show
October 5, 1995
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays
.
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| User: "RCMan" |
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| Title: Re: #God, as We Hadn't Seen Him |
27 Dec 2003 06:58:14 PM |
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zepp <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com> wrote in message news:<2hvpuvg6fefd4qjqnoqn8o091ok0qtpmu4@4ax.com>...
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 19:09:15 -0000, "Jez"
<iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
"zepp" <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com> wrote in message
news:ukknuv4t0ckbi54pf3r9m0eqcuscdn46og@4ax.com...
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 00:18:17 -0500, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On 25 Dec 2003 18:41:03 -0800, (RCMan) posted to
alt.atheism:
My hunch is that if God is God, the Christmas story offers an insight
that is more than a human invention.
And if he isn't, he isn't.
The entire post says nothing at all.
Happened to catch part of an interesting documentary on the History
Channel: "Who wrote the Bible?"
http://www.jamesarthur.net/mm.html
Hehe
It was all a mushroom trip !
And in fact, psyllosybin grows all over the island of Patmos...
And in your root cellar, I expect.
.
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| User: "zepp" |
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| Title: Re: #God, as We Hadn't Seen Him |
27 Dec 2003 10:22:36 PM |
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On 27 Dec 2003 16:58:14 -0800, (RCMan) wrote:
zepp <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com> wrote in message news:<2hvpuvg6fefd4qjqnoqn8o091ok0qtpmu4@4ax.com>...
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 19:09:15 -0000, "Jez"
<iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
"zepp" <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com> wrote in message
news:ukknuv4t0ckbi54pf3r9m0eqcuscdn46og@4ax.com...
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 00:18:17 -0500, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On 25 Dec 2003 18:41:03 -0800, (RCMan) posted to
alt.atheism:
My hunch is that if God is God, the Christmas story offers an insight
that is more than a human invention.
And if he isn't, he isn't.
The entire post says nothing at all.
Happened to catch part of an interesting documentary on the History
Channel: "Who wrote the Bible?"
http://www.jamesarthur.net/mm.html
Hehe
It was all a mushroom trip !
And in fact, psyllosybin grows all over the island of Patmos...
And in your root cellar, I expect.
Nope. Too cold here.
-
"...too many whites are getting away with drug use."
-- Rush Limbaugh, on his short lived TV show
October 5, 1995
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays
.
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| User: "RCMan" |
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| Title: Re: #God, as We Hadn't Seen Him |
28 Dec 2003 06:30:08 AM |
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zepp <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com> wrote in message news:<1kmsuv4osurrh1fikjsmhtkkuk89eig0ek@4ax.com>...
On 27 Dec 2003 16:58:14 -0800, (RCMan) wrote:
zepp <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com> wrote in message news:<2hvpuvg6fefd4qjqnoqn8o091ok0qtpmu4@4ax.com>...
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 19:09:15 -0000, "Jez"
<iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
"zepp" <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com> wrote in message
news:ukknuv4t0ckbi54pf3r9m0eqcuscdn46og@4ax.com...
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 00:18:17 -0500, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On 25 Dec 2003 18:41:03 -0800, (RCMan) posted to
alt.atheism:
My hunch is that if God is God, the Christmas story offers an insight
that is more than a human invention.
And if he isn't, he isn't.
The entire post says nothing at all.
Happened to catch part of an interesting documentary on the History
Channel: "Who wrote the Bible?"
http://www.jamesarthur.net/mm.html
Hehe
It was all a mushroom trip !
And in fact, psyllosybin grows all over the island of Patmos...
And in your root cellar, I expect.
Nope. Too cold here.
No matter. Where there's a need there's a way.
.
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| User: "zepp" |
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| Title: Re: #God, as We Hadn't Seen Him |
28 Dec 2003 08:35:31 AM |
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On 28 Dec 2003 04:30:08 -0800, (RCMan) wrote:
zepp <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com> wrote in message news:<1kmsuv4osurrh1fikjsmhtkkuk89eig0ek@4ax.com>...
On 27 Dec 2003 16:58:14 -0800, (RCMan) wrote:
zepp <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com> wrote in message news:<2hvpuvg6fefd4qjqnoqn8o091ok0qtpmu4@4ax.com>...
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 19:09:15 -0000, "Jez"
<iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
"zepp" <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com> wrote in message
news:ukknuv4t0ckbi54pf3r9m0eqcuscdn46og@4ax.com...
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 00:18:17 -0500, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On 25 Dec 2003 18:41:03 -0800, (RCMan) posted to
alt.atheism:
My hunch is that if God is God, the Christmas story offers an insight
that is more than a human invention.
And if he isn't, he isn't.
The entire post says nothing at all.
Happened to catch part of an interesting documentary on the History
Channel: "Who wrote the Bible?"
http://www.jamesarthur.net/mm.html
Hehe
It was all a mushroom trip !
And in fact, psyllosybin grows all over the island of Patmos...
And in your root cellar, I expect.
Nope. Too cold here.
No matter. Where there's a need there's a way.
With you around, who needs psychedelics?
-
"...too many whites are getting away with drug use."
-- Rush Limbaugh, on his short lived TV show
October 5, 1995
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays
.
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| User: "RCMan" |
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| Title: Re: #God, as We Hadn't Seen Him |
28 Dec 2003 02:53:24 PM |
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zepp <zepp@finestplanet.com> wrote in message news:<ugqtuvkc38r4odtsvh1mva0kig9ipjoket@4ax.com>...
On 28 Dec 2003 04:30:08 -0800, (RCMan) wrote:
zepp <zepp@finestplanet.com> wrote in message news:<1kmsuv4osurrh1fikjsmhtkkuk89eig0ek@4ax.com>...
On 27 Dec 2003 16:58:14 -0800, (RCMan) wrote:
zepp <zepp@finestplanet.com> wrote in message news:<2hvpuvg6fefd4qjqnoqn8o091ok0qtpmu4@4ax.com>...
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 19:09:15 -0000, "Jez"
<iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
"zepp" <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com> wrote in message
news:ukknuv4t0ckbi54pf3r9m0eqcuscdn46og@4ax.com...
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 00:18:17 -0500, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On 25 Dec 2003 18:41:03 -0800, (RCMan) posted to
alt.atheism:
My hunch is that if God is God, the Christmas story offers an insight
that is more than a human invention.
And if he isn't, he isn't.
The entire post says nothing at all.
Happened to catch part of an interesting documentary on the History
Channel: "Who wrote the Bible?"
http://www.jamesarthur.net/mm.html
Hehe
It was all a mushroom trip !
And in fact, psyllosybin grows all over the island of Patmos...
And in your root cellar, I expect.
Nope. Too cold here.
No matter. Where there's a need there's a way.
With you around, who needs psychedelics?
You'll find a way.
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: #God, as We Hadn't Seen Him |
26 Dec 2003 12:55:13 PM |
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On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 22:21:30 -0800, zepp <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com>
posted to alt.atheism:
Happened to catch part of an interesting documentary on the History
Channel: "Who wrote the Bible?"
In it, they talk about the second century Coptic texts that form what
is basically the gospel according to Thomas. It contains some 191
things that Jesus supposedly said, many of them familiar to
Christians.
What is MORE interesting to me is that the collection of sayings is
that: a collection of sayings. No miracles, no professions of
divinity, no reference to prophets. Just a notebooks of Lazurus Long
type of thing.
Second century. Much closer to source material than just about
anything else the Christians have.
So going back from the 4th century to the 2nd century strips away all
the ***** and leaves us with a few pithy sayings. Would going back
to the 1st century strip away the pithy sayings and leave us with
blank parchments?
--
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education and social
ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he
had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
-Albert Einstein
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: #God, as We Hadn't Seen Him |
27 Dec 2003 07:41:56 PM |
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And so upon Fri, 26 Dec 2003 13:55:13 -0500 didst Al Klein speak thusly:
On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 22:21:30 -0800, zepp <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com>
posted to alt.atheism:
Happened to catch part of an interesting documentary on the History
Channel: "Who wrote the Bible?"
In it, they talk about the second century Coptic texts that form what
is basically the gospel according to Thomas. It contains some 191
things that Jesus supposedly said, many of them familiar to
Christians.
What is MORE interesting to me is that the collection of sayings is
that: a collection of sayings. No miracles, no professions of
divinity, no reference to prophets. Just a notebooks of Lazurus Long
type of thing.
Second century. Much closer to source material than just about
anything else the Christians have.
So going back from the 4th century to the 2nd century strips away all
the ***** and leaves us with a few pithy sayings. Would going back
to the 1st century strip away the pithy sayings and leave us with
blank parchments?
Pretty much.
That and a diffuse, chaotic movement of sorts that had all *kinds of
conflicting views on this "Jesus" thing...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: #God, as We Hadn't Seen Him |
28 Dec 2003 12:28:51 AM |
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On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 19:41:56 -0600, "Mark K. Bilbo" <noem@il.huh>
posted to alt.atheism:
And so upon Fri, 26 Dec 2003 13:55:13 -0500 didst Al Klein speak thusly:
So going back from the 4th century to the 2nd century strips away all
the ***** and leaves us with a few pithy sayings. Would going back
to the 1st century strip away the pithy sayings and leave us with
blank parchments?
Pretty much.
That and a diffuse, chaotic movement of sorts that had all *kinds of
conflicting views on this "Jesus" thing...
If not for Constantine, Christianity would be a 1,500 year old vague
memory.
--
"Christianity has already had the chance to govern
the world according to its own ethical standards.
It was called the "Dark Ages".
- Bill, The Avender
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: #God, as We Hadn't Seen Him |
28 Dec 2003 08:16:07 AM |
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And so upon Sun, 28 Dec 2003 01:28:51 -0500 didst Al Klein speak thusly:
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 19:41:56 -0600, "Mark K. Bilbo" <noem@il.huh>
posted to alt.atheism:
And so upon Fri, 26 Dec 2003 13:55:13 -0500 didst Al Klein speak thusly:
So going back from the 4th century to the 2nd century strips away all
the ***** and leaves us with a few pithy sayings. Would going back
to the 1st century strip away the pithy sayings and leave us with
blank parchments?
Pretty much.
That and a diffuse, chaotic movement of sorts that had all *kinds of
conflicting views on this "Jesus" thing...
If not for Constantine, Christianity would be a 1,500 year old vague
memory.
And who was it that had them on the ropes but died too young? Attila. Yeah.
You know, turns out he wasn't *all bad. He almost took out the church...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
.
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| User: "zepp" |
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| Title: Re: #God, as We Hadn't Seen Him |
26 Dec 2003 09:35:38 PM |
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On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 13:55:13 -0500, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 22:21:30 -0800, zepp <zeppnospam@finestplanet.com>
posted to alt.atheism:
Happened to catch part of an interesting documentary on the History
Channel: "Who wrote the Bible?"
In it, they talk about the second century Coptic texts that form what
is basically the gospel according to Thomas. It contains some 191
things that Jesus supposedly said, many of them familiar to
Christians.
What is MORE interesting to me is that the collection of sayings is
that: a collection of sayings. No miracles, no professions of
divinity, no reference to prophets. Just a notebooks of Lazurus Long
type of thing.
Second century. Much closer to source material than just about
anything else the Christians have.
So going back from the 4th century to the 2nd century strips away all
the ***** and leaves us with a few pithy sayings. Would going back
to the 1st century strip away the pithy sayings and leave us with
blank parchments?
A lot can happen in 200 years, especially in a church struggling for
whatever divine authority it can gather. And nearly all biblical
miracles are variations on miracles reported in other, older texts of
other religions. Beliefs involving virgin births and resurrections
predate the first century by thousands of years.
-
"...too many whites are getting away with drug use."
-- Rush Limbaugh, on his short lived TV show
October 5, 1995
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays
.
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