Religions > Atheism > God guides the development of the universe & never has, and never will meddle in the affairs of mankind.
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Kurt G Kawohl" |
| Date: |
13 Aug 2004 12:06:32 PM |
| Object: |
God guides the development of the universe & never has, and never will meddle in the affairs of mankind. |
Truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be
substantiated by science or those that can not be proven to be wrong.
Logic dictates that spiritual interaction is only possible between the
Spirit of God and the spirit of man; claims of supernatural acts
performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are
not rational.
In this 21st Century the Age of Technology, we are still plagued by
religious beliefs that are contributing causes toward terrorism,
killings and wars between nations. Belief in what much of mankind
calls "God", a deity who caused catastrophes, punished people and who
created the universe out of nothing as if by magic was brought about
by hysteria and superstition. The "Holy Books" were written or
dictated by men whose social norms during the time period of their
lives dictated their and their society's acceptance of a king-like God
with immeasurable powers who would make his wishes known by physically
conversing with his messengers. Open-minded people must now use common
sense to determine whether this so-called God was incorrectly
perceived, misinterpreted and misunderstood by the masses of a bygone
era and consider whether this thought process should now to be
reassessed and brought up to date.
Perception plays a major role in religions. There are numerous
interpretations of the Scriptures, hence there are various sects who
use the same source, the Bible or the Qur'an, but come to different
conclusions. Religious differences are acceptable by the majority as
long as fanaticism does not cause physical confrontations. The ironic
fact is that the followers of these religions all claim to live by the
Word of God. Many claim that God has personally talked to their
messengers who have relayed these Words of God to others. Apparently
the Words of God were either misinterpreted, God is contradicting
himself, or we start all over again by each side claiming to live by
and having heard the Word of God correctly.
Human fallibility and misconceptions have labeled spirituality as God
for the past several millennia; as one who interferes with the natural
forces and free will of people by threatening punishment to those who
disobey his bidding. The spiritual existence of this deity, if one
decides to accept this premise, could not have changed with the times
but the perception of who or what this deity is should change as
societies eliminate their superstitious beliefs. This "God" could not
possibly be encumbered by human attributes, needs or desires to be
worshiped, prayed to, exalted, venerated, deified, or anything else
that mankind has to offer. It is also the human characteristics and
attributes that exercise upon others: power, control, dominance,
destruction, punishment, revenge, and judgment.
The destruction of civilizations, most sufferings and premature deaths
are due to human frailties, stupidity or imperfections and are not
God's doings. The true "God" is a Spiritual Unity that exists in a
spiritual realm and never has and never will interfere with anything
on earth or in the universe. God is interested in and is involved in
humanity, but does not interfere in any way in our physical lives. God
guides the development of the universe and everything thereon like a
Master Planner. Our relationship and interaction of our spirit with
the Spirit of God is for our, not God's benefit.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Transcendentalist_Theology
Transcendentalism
.
|
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| User: "Carlos Trevino" |
|
| Title: Re: God guides the development of the universe & never has, and never will meddle in the affairs of mankind. |
13 Aug 2004 12:31:59 PM |
|
|
"Kurt G Kawohl" <kkawohl@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:28d546b0.0408130906.7417283a@posting.google.com...
Truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be
substantiated by science or those that can not be proven to be wrong.
Logic dictates that spiritual interaction is only possible between the
Spirit of God and the spirit of man; claims of supernatural acts
performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are
not rational.
In this 21st Century the Age of Technology, we are still plagued by
religious beliefs that are contributing causes toward terrorism,
killings and wars between nations. Belief in what much of mankind
calls "God", a deity who caused catastrophes, punished people and who
created the universe out of nothing as if by magic was brought about
by hysteria and superstition. The "Holy Books" were written or
dictated by men whose social norms during the time period of their
lives dictated their and their society's acceptance of a king-like God
with immeasurable powers who would make his wishes known by physically
conversing with his messengers. Open-minded people must now use common
sense to determine whether this so-called God was incorrectly
perceived, misinterpreted and misunderstood by the masses of a bygone
era and consider whether this thought process should now to be
reassessed and brought up to date.
Perception plays a major role in religions. There are numerous
interpretations of the Scriptures, hence there are various sects who
use the same source, the Bible or the Qur'an, but come to different
conclusions. Religious differences are acceptable by the majority as
long as fanaticism does not cause physical confrontations. The ironic
fact is that the followers of these religions all claim to live by the
Word of God. Many claim that God has personally talked to their
messengers who have relayed these Words of God to others. Apparently
the Words of God were either misinterpreted, God is contradicting
himself, or we start all over again by each side claiming to live by
and having heard the Word of God correctly.
Human fallibility and misconceptions have labeled spirituality as God
for the past several millennia; as one who interferes with the natural
forces and free will of people by threatening punishment to those who
disobey his bidding. The spiritual existence of this deity, if one
decides to accept this premise, could not have changed with the times
but the perception of who or what this deity is should change as
societies eliminate their superstitious beliefs. This "God" could not
possibly be encumbered by human attributes, needs or desires to be
worshiped, prayed to, exalted, venerated, deified, or anything else
that mankind has to offer. It is also the human characteristics and
attributes that exercise upon others: power, control, dominance,
destruction, punishment, revenge, and judgment.
The destruction of civilizations, most sufferings and premature deaths
are due to human frailties, stupidity or imperfections and are not
God's doings. The true "God" is a Spiritual Unity that exists in a
spiritual realm and never has and never will interfere with anything
on earth or in the universe. God is interested in and is involved in
humanity, but does not interfere in any way in our physical lives. God
guides the development of the universe and everything thereon like a
Master Planner. Our relationship and interaction of our spirit with
the Spirit of God is for our, not God's benefit.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Transcendentalist_Theology
Transcendentalism
Check out these important points in defense of the Bible and why
so many people still believe in it. On the same token if you believe in the
Bible it also says that the whole world is deceived by the current
ruler of this earth known as Satan. and Jesus did warn that many would
come under his name and many would be deceived by false gospels.
Read:
http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn53/bibletrue.htm
.
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| User: "Fatman" |
|
| Title: Re: God guides the development of the universe & never has, and never will meddle in the affairs of mankind. |
13 Aug 2004 03:50:53 PM |
|
|
"Carlos Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:jW6Tc.38$Mb7.7@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
"Kurt G Kawohl" <kkawohl@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:28d546b0.0408130906.7417283a@posting.google.com...
Truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be
substantiated by science or those that can not be proven to be wrong.
Logic dictates that spiritual interaction is only possible between the
Spirit of God and the spirit of man; claims of supernatural acts
performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are
not rational.
In this 21st Century the Age of Technology, we are still plagued by
religious beliefs that are contributing causes toward terrorism,
killings and wars between nations. Belief in what much of mankind
calls "God", a deity who caused catastrophes, punished people and who
created the universe out of nothing as if by magic was brought about
by hysteria and superstition. The "Holy Books" were written or
dictated by men whose social norms during the time period of their
lives dictated their and their society's acceptance of a king-like God
with immeasurable powers who would make his wishes known by physically
conversing with his messengers. Open-minded people must now use common
sense to determine whether this so-called God was incorrectly
perceived, misinterpreted and misunderstood by the masses of a bygone
era and consider whether this thought process should now to be
reassessed and brought up to date.
Perception plays a major role in religions. There are numerous
interpretations of the Scriptures, hence there are various sects who
use the same source, the Bible or the Qur'an, but come to different
conclusions. Religious differences are acceptable by the majority as
long as fanaticism does not cause physical confrontations. The ironic
fact is that the followers of these religions all claim to live by the
Word of God. Many claim that God has personally talked to their
messengers who have relayed these Words of God to others. Apparently
the Words of God were either misinterpreted, God is contradicting
himself, or we start all over again by each side claiming to live by
and having heard the Word of God correctly.
Human fallibility and misconceptions have labeled spirituality as God
for the past several millennia; as one who interferes with the natural
forces and free will of people by threatening punishment to those who
disobey his bidding. The spiritual existence of this deity, if one
decides to accept this premise, could not have changed with the times
but the perception of who or what this deity is should change as
societies eliminate their superstitious beliefs. This "God" could not
possibly be encumbered by human attributes, needs or desires to be
worshiped, prayed to, exalted, venerated, deified, or anything else
that mankind has to offer. It is also the human characteristics and
attributes that exercise upon others: power, control, dominance,
destruction, punishment, revenge, and judgment.
The destruction of civilizations, most sufferings and premature deaths
are due to human frailties, stupidity or imperfections and are not
God's doings. The true "God" is a Spiritual Unity that exists in a
spiritual realm and never has and never will interfere with anything
on earth or in the universe. God is interested in and is involved in
humanity, but does not interfere in any way in our physical lives. God
guides the development of the universe and everything thereon like a
Master Planner. Our relationship and interaction of our spirit with
the Spirit of God is for our, not God's benefit.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Transcendentalist_Theology
Transcendentalism
Check out these important points in defense of the Bible and why
so many people still believe in it. On the same token if you believe in
the
Bible it also says that the whole world is deceived by the current
ruler of this earth known as Satan. and Jesus did warn that many would
come under his name and many would be deceived by false gospels.
Read:
http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn53/bibletrue.htm
The first post used faulty logic to rationalise his beliefs, which is
exactly what the bible true link does. "My book is right because my book
says so and others are wrong." is not a valid argument. That web site is
weak apologetics, which is meant to shore up the beliefs of like-minded
people. It really falls apart under higher criticism.
Fatman
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.732 / Virus Database: 486 - Release Date: 7/29/2004
.
|
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| User: "Carlos Trevino" |
|
| Title: Re: God guides the development of the universe & never has, and never will meddle in the affairs of mankind. |
13 Aug 2004 05:20:13 PM |
|
|
"Fatman" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:2o4grtF6ro1rU1@uni-berlin.de...
"Carlos Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:jW6Tc.38$Mb7.7@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
"Kurt G Kawohl" <kkawohl@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:28d546b0.0408130906.7417283a@posting.google.com...
Truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be
substantiated by science or those that can not be proven to be wrong.
Logic dictates that spiritual interaction is only possible between the
Spirit of God and the spirit of man; claims of supernatural acts
performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are
not rational.
In this 21st Century the Age of Technology, we are still plagued by
religious beliefs that are contributing causes toward terrorism,
killings and wars between nations. Belief in what much of mankind
calls "God", a deity who caused catastrophes, punished people and who
created the universe out of nothing as if by magic was brought about
by hysteria and superstition. The "Holy Books" were written or
dictated by men whose social norms during the time period of their
lives dictated their and their society's acceptance of a king-like God
with immeasurable powers who would make his wishes known by physically
conversing with his messengers. Open-minded people must now use common
sense to determine whether this so-called God was incorrectly
perceived, misinterpreted and misunderstood by the masses of a bygone
era and consider whether this thought process should now to be
reassessed and brought up to date.
Perception plays a major role in religions. There are numerous
interpretations of the Scriptures, hence there are various sects who
use the same source, the Bible or the Qur'an, but come to different
conclusions. Religious differences are acceptable by the majority as
long as fanaticism does not cause physical confrontations. The ironic
fact is that the followers of these religions all claim to live by the
Word of God. Many claim that God has personally talked to their
messengers who have relayed these Words of God to others. Apparently
the Words of God were either misinterpreted, God is contradicting
himself, or we start all over again by each side claiming to live by
and having heard the Word of God correctly.
Human fallibility and misconceptions have labeled spirituality as God
for the past several millennia; as one who interferes with the natural
forces and free will of people by threatening punishment to those who
disobey his bidding. The spiritual existence of this deity, if one
decides to accept this premise, could not have changed with the times
but the perception of who or what this deity is should change as
societies eliminate their superstitious beliefs. This "God" could not
possibly be encumbered by human attributes, needs or desires to be
worshiped, prayed to, exalted, venerated, deified, or anything else
that mankind has to offer. It is also the human characteristics and
attributes that exercise upon others: power, control, dominance,
destruction, punishment, revenge, and judgment.
The destruction of civilizations, most sufferings and premature deaths
are due to human frailties, stupidity or imperfections and are not
God's doings. The true "God" is a Spiritual Unity that exists in a
spiritual realm and never has and never will interfere with anything
on earth or in the universe. God is interested in and is involved in
humanity, but does not interfere in any way in our physical lives. God
guides the development of the universe and everything thereon like a
Master Planner. Our relationship and interaction of our spirit with
the Spirit of God is for our, not God's benefit.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Transcendentalist_Theology
Transcendentalism
Check out these important points in defense of the Bible and why
so many people still believe in it. On the same token if you believe in
the
Bible it also says that the whole world is deceived by the current
ruler of this earth known as Satan. and Jesus did warn that many would
come under his name and many would be deceived by false gospels.
Read:
http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn53/bibletrue.htm
The first post used faulty logic to rationalise his beliefs, which is
exactly what the bible true link does. "My book is right because my book
says so and others are wrong." is not a valid argument. That web site is
weak apologetics, which is meant to shore up the beliefs of like-minded
people. It really falls apart under higher criticism.
Fatman
Fatman,
We have to agree that all dominant ideologies by nature shore up
like-minded people. As far as criticism is concerned who determines
what is considered the "higher" criticism? Yours?
To each his own, as the saying goes and I'm glad everything around me
makes perfect sense and only because I'm convinced that the Bible
is the written Word of God. Kinda weird for me to say that considering
that I once was an atheist.
--
Carlos Trevino
Religion is a politically correct word for saying, "I do not
understand God but this is what I think He means." To
understand God is not through religion but through philosophy,
His Philosophy. We do not understand His Philosophy
because our mind is hostile, yet His Philosophy is
so simple that a child can grasp it, Love One Another.
phi·los·o·phy: Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means
and moral self-discipline. Investigation of the nature, causes,
or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical
reasoning rather than empirical methods.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fatman" |
|
| Title: Re: God guides the development of the universe & never has, and never will meddle in the affairs of mankind. |
16 Aug 2004 01:28:28 PM |
|
|
"Carlos Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:x8bTc.79$9B.25@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
The first post used faulty logic to rationalise his beliefs, which is
exactly what the bible true link does. "My book is right because my book
says so and others are wrong." is not a valid argument. That web site is
weak apologetics, which is meant to shore up the beliefs of like-minded
people. It really falls apart under higher criticism.
Fatman
Fatman,
We have to agree that all dominant ideologies by nature shore up
like-minded people. As far as criticism is concerned who determines
what is considered the "higher" criticism? Yours?
(Sorry for the long time between reply)
Not at all. Higher criticism is a method of Christian biblical study that
does not soley rely on what is written in the bible, but uses external
information. This method was created by Christians as an attempt to answer
"higher criticism" from non-Christians.Take for example the "Great Flood" of
Christian and non-Christian mythology. Many other cultures also have similar
tales, yet there is no physical evidence of this global event. We do,
however, find evidence of regional flooding that more likely fits the
legends of these cultures. Christians, using higher criticism, seeks global
flooding physical evidence, whereas "lower criticism" uses the text of the
bible to explain things.
To each his own, as the saying goes and I'm glad everything around me
makes perfect sense and only because I'm convinced that the Bible
is the written Word of God.
If everything around you only makes perfect sense due to a belief system you
have, then of course, to each his own.
Kinda weird for me to say that considering that I once was an atheist.
Well, everyone starts life as an atheist (lacking the belief in gods). The
funny thing is people usually only become Christian in Christian cultures,
Muslim in Muslim cultures, Hindu in Hindu cultures, ect.
The original post was taking a Deist stance, the follow up was a link to a
bible defense site. I was pointing out the weakness of the link to persuade
the non-believer.
--
Carlos Trevino
Religion is a politically correct word for saying, "I do not
understand God but this is what I think He means." To
understand God is not through religion but through philosophy,
His Philosophy. We do not understand His Philosophy
because our mind is hostile, yet His Philosophy is
so simple that a child can grasp it, Love One Another.
phi·los·o·phy: Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means
and moral self-discipline. Investigation of the nature, causes,
or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical
reasoning rather than empirical methods.
Fatman
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.732 / Virus Database: 486 - Release Date: 7/29/2004
.
|
|
|
| User: "Carlos Trevino" |
|
| Title: Re: God guides the development of the universe & never has, and never will meddle in the affairs of mankind. |
16 Aug 2004 03:05:28 PM |
|
|
"Fatman" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:2oc5l1F8saofU1@uni-berlin.de...
"Carlos Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:x8bTc.79$9B.25@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
The first post used faulty logic to rationalise his beliefs, which is
exactly what the bible true link does. "My book is right because my book
says so and others are wrong." is not a valid argument. That web site is
weak apologetics, which is meant to shore up the beliefs of like-minded
people. It really falls apart under higher criticism.
Fatman
Fatman,
We have to agree that all dominant ideologies by nature shore up
like-minded people. As far as criticism is concerned who determines
what is considered the "higher" criticism? Yours?
(Sorry for the long time between reply)
Not at all. Higher criticism is a method of Christian biblical study that
does not soley rely on what is written in the bible, but uses external
information. This method was created by Christians as an attempt to answer
"higher criticism" from non-Christians.Take for example the "Great Flood" of
Christian and non-Christian mythology. Many other cultures also have similar
tales, yet there is no physical evidence of this global event. We do,
however, find evidence of regional flooding that more likely fits the
legends of these cultures. Christians, using higher criticism, seeks global
flooding physical evidence, whereas "lower criticism" uses the text of the
bible to explain things.
To each his own, as the saying goes and I'm glad everything around me
makes perfect sense and only because I'm convinced that the Bible
is the written Word of God.
If everything around you only makes perfect sense due to a belief system you
have, then of course, to each his own.
Kinda weird for me to say that considering that I once was an atheist.
Well, everyone starts life as an atheist (lacking the belief in gods). The
funny thing is people usually only become Christian in Christian cultures,
Muslim in Muslim cultures, Hindu in Hindu cultures, ect.
The original post was taking a Deist stance, the follow up was a link to a
bible defense site. I was pointing out the weakness of the link to persuade
the non-believer.
--
Carlos Trevino
Religion is a politically correct word for saying, "I do not
understand God but this is what I think He means." To
understand God is not through religion but through philosophy,
His Philosophy. We do not understand His Philosophy
because our mind is hostile, yet His Philosophy is
so simple that a child can grasp it, Love One Another.
phi·los·o·phy: Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means
and moral self-discipline. Investigation of the nature, causes,
or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical
reasoning rather than empirical methods.
Fatman
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.732 / Virus Database: 486 - Release Date: 7/29/2004
Dear Fatman,
I was atheist until my early 20's and growing up and I always read books and magazines about science and I was always curious about
the mysteries of the universe and who we are. I have seen both sides of the arguments involving evolution versus creation.
To me creation now makes more sense especially from a scientific point of view. As much as we seek proof as scientist we can not
find the answer to the beginning of our existence but maybe one day we will get closer as we learn to dissect the human DNA code.
As a rational and logical person I hope that there is a God and that He is a loving God that will saves us from our misery. Our
human nature is hostile and we try to do good but we somehow always manage to use new technology for harm ourselves and our
eco-system.
I hate to be a pessimist but I really think we are getting close to world chaos and you and I will probably see this happen in our
life time.
To me the Bible says things that make so much sense but I don't expect an atheist to agree with me and what's ironic is the fact
that few people that believe in God of the Bible agree with my point of view. That's why I don't blame atheist for not believing in
Christianity. There are so many doctrines that who can you believe even if you did believe in God. I would say I have biblical proof
for my beliefs but then again doesn't everybody that is Christian make the same claim such?
In the Bible it says that the end time there will be an increase of knowledge. Of this I am in awe realizing that in the last 100
years we have advance in all fields of science. This it is truly shocking once we realize that we have lived on earth practically
thousands of years with little change. In the Bible it says that God's Son will return to earth and save us from the brink of
annihilation but He will not interfere until it is absolutely.
I know it sounds like a fairy tale but if it is true or not only time will tell. I believe God gave us the Bible to ultimately help
us live happy lives but we must first learn from experience what happens when we live by our own laws and moral values.
.
|
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| User: "Fatman" |
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| Title: Re: God guides the development of the universe & never has, and never will meddle in the affairs of mankind. |
16 Aug 2004 06:25:49 PM |
|
|
"Carlos Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:cs8Uc.1353$Mi4.1024@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
Dear Fatman,
I was atheist until my early 20's and growing up and I always read books
and magazines about science and I was always curious about
the mysteries of the universe and who we are. I have seen both sides of
the arguments involving evolution versus creation.
I also have seen both sides of the arguments.
To me creation now makes more sense especially from a scientific point of
view. As much as we seek proof as scientist we can not
find the answer to the beginning of our existence but maybe one day we
will get closer as we learn to dissect the human DNA code.
Those DNA codes show major flaws with intelligent design dogma. We have
"junk" in our DNA that is useless to humans.
As a rational and logical person I hope that there is a God and that He is
a loving God that will saves us from our misery.
That is your hope that there may be something to save you from your misery.
I have no such misery, nor need for such hope.
Our human nature is hostile and we try to do good but we somehow always
manage to use new technology for harm ourselves and our
eco-system.
I hate to be a pessimist but I really think we are getting close to world
chaos and you and I will probably see this happen in our
life time.
Quick....pop quiz.....what generation did NOT feel the same way?
Answer..............None. The end of times has been "just around the corner"
for Christians for 2000 years now.
To me the Bible says things that make so much sense but I don't expect an
atheist to agree with me and what's ironic is the fact
that few people that believe in God of the Bible agree with my point of
view. That's why I don't blame atheist for not believing in
Christianity. There are so many doctrines that who can you believe even if
you did believe in God. I would say I have biblical proof
for my beliefs but then again doesn't everybody that is Christian make the
same claim such?
All Christians have biblical proof of their beliefs don't they?? Thats quite
different than saying the bible is non-fiction.
In the Bible it says that the end time there will be an increase of
knowledge. Of this I am in awe realizing that in the last 100
years we have advance in all fields of science.
Maybe this is a metaphor for the end of "God's" time as a necessary
creation? The more knowlegdge we get, the less a god is needed to explain
things. Eventually we will not need gods anymore.
This it is truly shocking once we realize that we have lived on earth
practically
thousands of years with little change.
Missing a few years there, considering the Ice age was about 20,000 years
ago. That was probably the last dramatic change.
In the Bible it says that God's Son will return to earth and save us from
the brink of
annihilation but He will not interfere until it is absolutely.
That is what Christian Mythology says. Many other mythologies have end of
days stories.
I know it sounds like a fairy tale but if it is true or not only time will
tell. I believe God gave us the Bible to ultimately help
us live happy lives but we must first learn from experience what happens
when we live by our own laws and moral values.
I find it amazing that a god would need to inspire a few unkown people to
write things down in a unconnected method. That, hundreds of years later
will be combined into a single work, in a different language. That will need
to be translated yet again to many more different languages. Instead of just
communicating directly. I live quite a happy life, without the need of a god
to both fear and love.
Religion is for people who need it. You need your god. I need none.
Fatman
.
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| User: "Carlos Trevino" |
|
| Title: Re: God guides the development of the universe & never has, and never will meddle in the affairs of mankind. |
17 Aug 2004 11:28:38 AM |
|
|
"Fatman" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:2ocu2dF9alooU1@uni-berlin.de...
"Carlos Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:cs8Uc.1353$Mi4.1024@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
Dear Fatman,
I was atheist until my early 20's and growing up and I always read books
and magazines about science and I was always curious about
the mysteries of the universe and who we are. I have seen both sides of
the arguments involving evolution versus creation.
I also have seen both sides of the arguments.
To me creation now makes more sense especially from a scientific point of
view. As much as we seek proof as scientist we can not
find the answer to the beginning of our existence but maybe one day we
will get closer as we learn to dissect the human DNA code.
Those DNA codes show major flaws with intelligent design dogma. We have
"junk" in our DNA that is useless to humans.
As a rational and logical person I hope that there is a God and that He is
a loving God that will saves us from our misery.
That is your hope that there may be something to save you from your misery.
I have no such misery, nor need for such hope.
Our human nature is hostile and we try to do good but we somehow always
manage to use new technology for harm ourselves and our
eco-system.
I hate to be a pessimist but I really think we are getting close to world
chaos and you and I will probably see this happen in our
life time.
Quick....pop quiz.....what generation did NOT feel the same way?
Answer..............None. The end of times has been "just around the corner"
for Christians for 2000 years now.
To me the Bible says things that make so much sense but I don't expect an
atheist to agree with me and what's ironic is the fact
that few people that believe in God of the Bible agree with my point of
view. That's why I don't blame atheist for not believing in
Christianity. There are so many doctrines that who can you believe even if
you did believe in God. I would say I have biblical proof
for my beliefs but then again doesn't everybody that is Christian make the
same claim such?
All Christians have biblical proof of their beliefs don't they?? Thats quite
different than saying the bible is non-fiction.
In the Bible it says that the end time there will be an increase of
knowledge. Of this I am in awe realizing that in the last 100
years we have advance in all fields of science.
Maybe this is a metaphor for the end of "God's" time as a necessary
creation? The more knowlegdge we get, the less a god is needed to explain
things. Eventually we will not need gods anymore.
This it is truly shocking once we realize that we have lived on earth
practically
thousands of years with little change.
Missing a few years there, considering the Ice age was about 20,000 years
ago. That was probably the last dramatic change.
In the Bible it says that God's Son will return to earth and save us from
the brink of
annihilation but He will not interfere until it is absolutely.
That is what Christian Mythology says. Many other mythologies have end of
days stories.
I know it sounds like a fairy tale but if it is true or not only time will
tell. I believe God gave us the Bible to ultimately help
us live happy lives but we must first learn from experience what happens
when we live by our own laws and moral values.
I find it amazing that a god would need to inspire a few unkown people to
write things down in a unconnected method. That, hundreds of years later
will be combined into a single work, in a different language. That will need
to be translated yet again to many more different languages. Instead of just
communicating directly. I live quite a happy life, without the need of a god
to both fear and love.
Religion is for people who need it. You need your god. I need none.
Fatman
Dear Fatman,
Like I said before, I don't blame you for not believing in a God that is the Creator. I can see your logic but let me just tell you
a little of how I reason (not to convince you, just so you see my logic).
God through the years has spoken to man directly but we have always disobeyed Him. He sent his Son in the flesh to this earth to
again tell us who God is and who we are and we still did not listen. ( Fact:No serious historian will deny that Jesus Christ
existed)
So now God is letting humanity run it's course which unfortunately is towards self-destruction. The last time God spoke to man was
about 2,000 years. Now the most educated of us in the world do not believe there is a God and it makes sense that in this modern
time those of higher education group God the Creator with the false gods made up in the minds of men.
And to make matters worst a modern educated man sees preachers on TV yelling and stomping in the name of Jesus and I must admit that
a lot of these guys sound fake. The higher educated can see that it is easy to brain-wash the lesser educated and those that need a
mental crutch. I see all that.
But science has not answered my basic questions of who are we? Where did we come from? Where are we going? What I learned in the
Bible made me believe their is a Creator but I tried to reason out of believing their is a God because I would laugh at people that
worshipped God and I thought they were gullible people.
As an atheist I believed that one day an extraterrestrial would come to earth and make our earth a better place. I would look at the
stars and be convinced that their was life in other planets.(By the way, I do believe the earth and the universe are millions of
years old but humans have only been on earth about 7,000 years. And yes, I do believe dinosaurs existed) but the more I read, and
the more science advanced, I came to realize that space travel is impossible and many physicist agree on this.
Why do I believe in the Bible? Well it was the first place I heard that our civilization on earth will end one day and that the end
will be a direct cause of our destructive nature. No other time in history has that been possible until recently. Back in the old
days people could not understand such claim. Yes people got scared when the Bubonic Plague hit Asia and Europe and it seemed to be
the end of civilization. But now we all very well know that we can literally end our existence if we enter a world war and tyrants
decide to use nuclear and biological warfare. But not just that. We are living in a time that through science we are able to
maximize our agricultural yield and extend our lives through advanced medicine so our population continues to grow while at the same
time we put a tremendous toll on our eco-system.
How many humans can our earth tolerate? The bigger the population the more factories and refineries that produce chemicals which
cause pollution which alters weather patterns and many other ecological components. For example, we use modern fertilizers for
commercial agriculture as well as home owners use fertilizers for their lawns. These chemicals flow into the oceans and cause dead
zones which is due to bacteria explosions thanks to the abundant fertilizers they feed on. To make things worst we are depleting
fish that clean the oceans such as shad/herring. They are the vacuum cleaners of the ocean. These schools eat the excessive bacteria
that blooms in the oceans but man is now netting most of these fish thanks to high tech sonar and GPS technology. So now the schools
of fish that control the bacteria are being depleted and the ocean bacteria might one day explode beyond control. The reason we
harvest these fish is to make high protein chicken feed in order to grow chickens faster thus gaining a high yield of chicken to
feed ratio. Check this out:
"When my father first began growing chickens in the 50's, it took 12-14 weeks to produce a 3.25 pounds chicken. It took 4 pounds of
feed to produce a pound of meat. Now, it is not uncommon to produce a 4 pound chicken in 6 weeks with a feed conversion of 1.7
pounds of feed per pound of meat." -- Dan Smalley-Red Hill Farms
also
John Oliver, president of Maple Leaf Bio-Concepts made several comments regarding population growth and bio-technology. He observed
that "we either stop population growth, or we dramatically increase the food supply." And, that "we are on the edge of a demand for
food, particularly animal protein, the likes of which we've never seen before" and "to meet these challenges, we must use all
available knowledge and technology."
So my point is I don't think the Bible meant it as a metaphor about the End Time. We have reached a time as never before where the
whole world is heavily populated and it would not be far fetched that some extremist group, it wouldn't surprise me if it's a
religious extremist, might reason that we must kill billions of humans so that we can continue to exist on earth. That my friend
will be a very scary time to live in and now more than ever is very possible to occur in our life time.
In order to live in peace on earth we all have to be of the same mind frame but as you can see it's even difficult to find two minds
alike, war always prevails in the hearts of men.
Sincerely,
Carlos
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fatman" |
|
| Title: Re: God guides the development of the universe & never has, and never will meddle in the affairs of mankind. |
18 Aug 2004 11:14:42 AM |
|
|
"Carlos Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net> wrote in
news:WmqUc.1663$AP1.1225@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com:
Dear Fatman,
Like I said before, I don't blame you for not believing in a God that
is the Creator. I can see your logic but let me just tell you a little
of how I reason (not to convince you, just so you see my logic). God
through the years has spoken to man directly but we have always
disobeyed Him. He sent his Son in the flesh to this earth to again
tell us who God is and who we are and we still did not listen. (
Fact:No serious historian will deny that Jesus Christ existed)
Let me be perfectly clear on this. Serious historians speculate that
there may have been a person who inspired the New Testament writtings.
This person may NOT have gone by the name of Jesus Christ (this is a
title, not a name). This person was NOT a god in human flesh. This person
did NOT perform supernatural feats. Do serious historians deny the
exsistance of Mohammed? No. Do serious historians claim he actually was
dictated the Koran by the Archangel Gabriel? No.
So now God is letting humanity run it's course which unfortunately is
towards self-destruction. The last time God spoke to man was about
2,000 years. Now the most educated of us in the world do not believe
there is a God and it makes sense that in this modern time those of
higher education group God the Creator with the false gods made up in
the minds of men.
Yes, it makes perfect sense to group the Christian god with all other
made up gods.
And to make matters worst a modern educated man sees preachers on TV
yelling and stomping in the name of Jesus and I must admit that a lot
of these guys sound fake. The higher educated can see that it is easy
to brain-wash the lesser educated and those that need a mental
crutch. I see all that.
But science has not answered my basic questions of who are we?
Human beings.
Where did we come from?
Irrelevent. Through evolution, magic, alien intervention, what does it
matter?
Where are we going?
Irrelevent. Ultimately our sun will die, so will the earth. Humans may
not be around when that time comes.
What I learned in the Bible made me believe their is a Creator but I
tried to reason out of believing their is a God because I would laugh
at people that worshipped God and I thought they were gullible people.
As an atheist I believed that one day an extraterrestrial would come
to earth and make our earth a better place. I would look at the stars
and be convinced that their was life in other planets.(By the way, I
do believe the earth and the universe are millions of years old but
humans have only been on earth about 7,000 years. And yes, I do
believe dinosaurs existed) but the more I read, and the more science
advanced, I came to realize that space travel is impossible and many
physicist agree on this.
Why only 7,000 years? We humans have been around much longer than that.
Space travel is possible, we have been to the moon. We have launched
probes that have left our solar system.
Why do I believe in the Bible? Well it was the first place I heard
that our civilization on earth will end one day and that the end will
be a direct cause of our destructive nature. No other time in history
has that been possible until recently. Back in the old days people
could not understand such claim. Yes people got scared when the
Bubonic Plague hit Asia and Europe and it seemed to be the end of
civilization. But now we all very well know that we can literally end
our existence if we enter a world war and tyrants decide to use
nuclear and biological warfare. But not just that. We are living in a
time that through science we are able to maximize our agricultural
yield and extend our lives through advanced medicine so our population
continues to grow while at the same time we put a tremendous toll on
our eco-system.
Yet a large comet or meteor may strike and wipe us out, which would not
be due to our "destructive nature". Why are we causing the end of times
now? Why not another 2000 years from now? Why not 30 years ago, during
the cold war?
How many humans can our earth tolerate? The bigger the population the
more factories and refineries that produce chemicals which cause
pollution which alters weather patterns and many other ecological
components. For example, we use modern fertilizers for commercial
agriculture as well as home owners use fertilizers for their lawns.
These chemicals flow into the oceans and cause dead zones which is due
to bacteria explosions thanks to the abundant fertilizers they feed
on. To make things worst we are depleting fish that clean the oceans
such as shad/herring. They are the vacuum cleaners of the ocean. These
schools eat the excessive bacteria that blooms in the oceans but man
is now netting most of these fish thanks to high tech sonar and GPS
technology. So now the schools of fish that control the bacteria are
being depleted and the ocean bacteria might one day explode beyond
control. The reason we harvest these fish is to make high protein
chicken feed in order to grow chickens faster thus gaining a high
yield of chicken to feed ratio. Check this out:
"When my father first began growing chickens in the 50's, it took
12-14 weeks to produce a 3.25 pounds chicken. It took 4 pounds of
feed to produce a pound of meat. Now, it is not uncommon to produce a
4 pound chicken in 6 weeks with a feed conversion of 1.7 pounds of
feed per pound of meat." -- Dan Smalley-Red Hill Farms
also
John Oliver, president of Maple Leaf Bio-Concepts made several
comments regarding population growth and bio-technology. He observed
that "we either stop population growth, or we dramatically increase
the food supply." And, that "we are on the edge of a demand for food,
particularly animal protein, the likes of which we've never seen
before" and "to meet these challenges, we must use all available
knowledge and technology."
So my point is I don't think the Bible meant it as a metaphor about
the End Time. We have reached a time as never before where the whole
world is heavily populated and it would not be far fetched that some
extremist group, it wouldn't surprise me if it's a religious
extremist, might reason that we must kill billions of humans so that
we can continue to exist on earth. That my friend will be a very scary
time to live in and now more than ever is very possible to occur in
our life time.
In order to live in peace on earth we all have to be of the same mind
frame but as you can see it's even difficult to find two minds alike,
war always prevails in the hearts of men.
Sincerely,
Carlos
Carlos, environmental worries are not a reason to start looking for a
supernatural life preserver. Humanity can work and try to resolve these
problems, or they can cower in their houses of worship, asking for their
god to help. Which one seems more likely to fix the problem.
Fatman
(If you reply, please keep your responses a little shorter and specific
to the points being discussed).
.
|
|
|
| User: "Carlos Trevino" |
|
| Title: Re: God guides the development of the universe & never has, and never will meddle in the affairs of mankind. |
18 Aug 2004 01:50:19 PM |
|
|
"Fatman" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:Xns9549726A69C28meprivacynet@130.133.1.4...
"Carlos Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net> wrote in
news:WmqUc.1663$AP1.1225@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com:
Dear Fatman,
Like I said before, I don't blame you for not believing in a God that
is the Creator. I can see your logic but let me just tell you a little
of how I reason (not to convince you, just so you see my logic). God
through the years has spoken to man directly but we have always
disobeyed Him. He sent his Son in the flesh to this earth to again
tell us who God is and who we are and we still did not listen. (
Fact:No serious historian will deny that Jesus Christ existed)
Let me be perfectly clear on this. Serious historians speculate that
there may have been a person who inspired the New Testament writtings.
This person may NOT have gone by the name of Jesus Christ (this is a
title, not a name). This person was NOT a god in human flesh. This person
did NOT perform supernatural feats. Do serious historians deny the
exsistance of Mohammed? No. Do serious historians claim he actually was
dictated the Koran by the Archangel Gabriel? No.
So now God is letting humanity run it's course which unfortunately is
towards self-destruction. The last time God spoke to man was about
2,000 years. Now the most educated of us in the world do not believe
there is a God and it makes sense that in this modern time those of
higher education group God the Creator with the false gods made up in
the minds of men.
Yes, it makes perfect sense to group the Christian god with all other
made up gods.
And to make matters worst a modern educated man sees preachers on TV
yelling and stomping in the name of Jesus and I must admit that a lot
of these guys sound fake. The higher educated can see that it is easy
to brain-wash the lesser educated and those that need a mental
crutch. I see all that.
But science has not answered my basic questions of who are we?
Human beings.
Where did we come from?
Irrelevent. Through evolution, magic, alien intervention, what does it
matter?
Where are we going?
Irrelevent. Ultimately our sun will die, so will the earth. Humans may
not be around when that time comes.
What I learned in the Bible made me believe their is a Creator but I
tried to reason out of believing their is a God because I would laugh
at people that worshipped God and I thought they were gullible people.
As an atheist I believed that one day an extraterrestrial would come
to earth and make our earth a better place. I would look at the stars
and be convinced that their was life in other planets.(By the way, I
do believe the earth and the universe are millions of years old but
humans have only been on earth about 7,000 years. And yes, I do
believe dinosaurs existed) but the more I read, and the more science
advanced, I came to realize that space travel is impossible and many
physicist agree on this.
Why only 7,000 years? We humans have been around much longer than that.
Space travel is possible, we have been to the moon. We have launched
probes that have left our solar system.
Why do I believe in the Bible? Well it was the first place I heard
that our civilization on earth will end one day and that the end will
be a direct cause of our destructive nature. No other time in history
has that been possible until recently. Back in the old days people
could not understand such claim. Yes people got scared when the
Bubonic Plague hit Asia and Europe and it seemed to be the end of
civilization. But now we all very well know that we can literally end
our existence if we enter a world war and tyrants decide to use
nuclear and biological warfare. But not just that. We are living in a
time that through science we are able to maximize our agricultural
yield and extend our lives through advanced medicine so our population
continues to grow while at the same time we put a tremendous toll on
our eco-system.
Yet a large comet or meteor may strike and wipe us out, which would not
be due to our "destructive nature". Why are we causing the end of times
now? Why not another 2000 years from now? Why not 30 years ago, during
the cold war?
How many humans can our earth tolerate? The bigger the population the
more factories and refineries that produce chemicals which cause
pollution which alters weather patterns and many other ecological
components. For example, we use modern fertilizers for commercial
agriculture as well as home owners use fertilizers for their lawns.
These chemicals flow into the oceans and cause dead zones which is due
to bacteria explosions thanks to the abundant fertilizers they feed
on. To make things worst we are depleting fish that clean the oceans
such as shad/herring. They are the vacuum cleaners of the ocean. These
schools eat the excessive bacteria that blooms in the oceans but man
is now netting most of these fish thanks to high tech sonar and GPS
technology. So now the schools of fish that control the bacteria are
being depleted and the ocean bacteria might one day explode beyond
control. The reason we harvest these fish is to make high protein
chicken feed in order to grow chickens faster thus gaining a high
yield of chicken to feed ratio. Check this out:
"When my father first began growing chickens in the 50's, it took
12-14 weeks to produce a 3.25 pounds chicken. It took 4 pounds of
feed to produce a pound of meat. Now, it is not uncommon to produce a
4 pound chicken in 6 weeks with a feed conversion of 1.7 pounds of
feed per pound of meat." -- Dan Smalley-Red Hill Farms
also
John Oliver, president of Maple Leaf Bio-Concepts made several
comments regarding population growth and bio-technology. He observed
that "we either stop population growth, or we dramatically increase
the food supply." And, that "we are on the edge of a demand for food,
particularly animal protein, the likes of which we've never seen
before" and "to meet these challenges, we must use all available
knowledge and technology."
So my point is I don't think the Bible meant it as a metaphor about
the End Time. We have reached a time as never before where the whole
world is heavily populated and it would not be far fetched that some
extremist group, it wouldn't surprise me if it's a religious
extremist, might reason that we must kill billions of humans so that
we can continue to exist on earth. That my friend will be a very scary
time to live in and now more than ever is very possible to occur in
our life time.
In order to live in peace on earth we all have to be of the same mind
frame but as you can see it's even difficult to find two minds alike,
war always prevails in the hearts of men.
Sincerely,
Carlos
Carlos, environmental worries are not a reason to start looking for a
supernatural life preserver. Humanity can work and try to resolve these
problems, or they can cower in their houses of worship, asking for their
god to help. Which one seems more likely to fix the problem.
Fatman
(If you reply, please keep your responses a little shorter and specific
to the points being discussed).
Dear Fatman,
I understand all your points. I seriously think that we are about to
enter a global crisis during our life time that has never not happen
before. Our population growth is and will continue to be a major factor
that will put a strain in our eco-system. I think we are getting to the
point that even our highly advanced science will not save us this time
because our population of 6.5 billion will grow to 9 billion in about 50 years.
At the rate that we are corrupting our eco-system, science will not have
enough time to react to the global climate changes that will soon begin
to take shape.
In the New Testament Jesus Christ foretold of such coming events.
I can see this happening now and that is why I believe that there is a
Loving God that will intervene in our self-destructive but only after
billions of us die in famine and disease and we finally see that we
are in the brink of self-annihilation.
I have no proof for you and it requires faith from me to believe that
global chaos will begin to unfold as Jesus Christ foretold.
I am sorry to sound like a lunatic but don't forget the things
I have said if one day you start hearing of such events in the news.
Regards,
Carlos
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fatman" |
|
| Title: Re: God guides the development of the universe & never has, and never will meddle in the affairs of mankind. |
18 Aug 2004 02:37:38 PM |
|
|
"Carlos Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net> wrote in
news:LxNUc.1939$1F.1298@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com:
Dear Fatman,
I understand all your points. I seriously think that we are about to
enter a global crisis during our life time that has never not happen
before. Our population growth is and will continue to be a major
factor that will put a strain in our eco-system. I think we are
getting to the point that even our highly advanced science will not
save us this time because our population of 6.5 billion will grow to 9
billion in about 50 years.
At the rate that we are corrupting our eco-system, science will not
have enough time to react to the global climate changes that will soon
begin to take shape.
In the New Testament Jesus Christ foretold of such coming events.
I don't think Jesus foretold of global climate/eco-system changes due to
human over-population.
I can see this happening now and that is why I believe that there is a
Loving God that will intervene in our self-destructive but only after
billions of us die in famine and disease and we finally see that we
are in the brink of self-annihilation.
I have no proof for you and it requires faith from me to believe that
global chaos will begin to unfold as Jesus Christ foretold.
I am sorry to sound like a lunatic but don't forget the things
I have said if one day you start hearing of such events in the news.
Regards,
Carlos
There is no logic in the statement that a "Loving God that will
intervene" only after "billions of us die in famine and disease". If this
loving god will intervene, why not before hand? If this god is content to
let billions die in misery, then why not let all die the same way?
Revalations was written for the era of the Roman Empire's rule. Once this
time period came and went without the end of the world occuring,
Christians constantly moved the calendar back. Each time claiming, "it
can't get any worse than this"...Well it does. We have not seen a massive
die-off of humans since 1918-1919 when over 70 million died of the
influenza pandemic. Can you imagine every Chirstian at that time swearing
that the end of the world was upon us? Especially during and after World
War I? That was a much scarier time to be alive than now.
I think we both beat this topic to death.
Fatman
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: God guides the development of the universe & never has, and never will meddle in the affairs of mankind. |
17 Aug 2004 02:35:13 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:28:38 +0000 in episode
<WmqUc.1663$AP1.1225@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com> we saw our hero "Carlos
Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net>:
As an atheist I believed that one day an extraterrestrial would come to
earth and make our earth a better place. I would look at the stars and be
convinced that their was life in other planets.
Okay. So you haven't actually changed your beliefs at all then.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.
|
|
|
| User: "Carlos Trevino" |
|
| Title: Re: God guides the development of the universe & never has, and never will meddle in the affairs of mankind. |
17 Aug 2004 04:49:05 PM |
|
|
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message news:PtGdnVNSE51ywL_cRVn-oQ@megapath.net...
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:28:38 +0000 in episode
<WmqUc.1663$AP1.1225@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com> we saw our hero "Carlos
Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net>:
As an atheist I believed that one day an extraterrestrial would come to
earth and make our earth a better place. I would look at the stars and be
convinced that their was life in other planets.
Okay. So you haven't actually changed your beliefs at all then.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
Mr. Bilbo, In what sense is your statement?
Let me clarify my beliefs. Is there life in a non-physical, yes. Did I believe in physical life outside of earth as an atheist, yes.
Do I believe in physical life outside of earth now, No. Have my beliefs changed, extremely.
Best Regards,
Carlos Trevino
Religion is a politically correct word for saying, "I do not
understand God but this is what I think He means." To
understand God is not through religion but through philosophy,
His Philosophy. We do not understand His Philosophy
because our mind is hostile, yet His Philosophy is
so simple that a child can grasp it, Love One Another.
phi·los·o·phy: Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means
and moral self-discipline. Investigation of the nature, causes,
or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical
reasoning rather than empirical methods.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: God guides the development of the universe & never has, and never will meddle in the affairs of mankind. |
17 Aug 2004 07:24:31 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:49:05 +0000 in episode
<l3vUc.1742$t13.367@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com> we saw our hero "Carlos
Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net>:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:PtGdnVNSE51ywL_cRVn-oQ@megapath.net...
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:28:38 +0000 in episode
<WmqUc.1663$AP1.1225@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com> we saw our hero "Carlos
Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net>:
As an atheist I believed that one day an extraterrestrial would come
to earth and make our earth a better place. I would look at the stars
and be convinced that their was life in other planets.
Okay. So you haven't actually changed your beliefs at all then.
Mr. Bilbo, In what sense is your statement? Let me clarify my beliefs. Is
there life in a non-physical, yes. Did I believe in physical life outside
of earth as an atheist, yes. Do I believe in physical life outside of
earth now, No. Have my beliefs changed, extremely.
Look what you *said. You admit you believed some powerful being--for which
you had *no evidence--that existed in some "out there" was going to come
to earth and "save" us. That's recapitulation of Christian belief.
I'm sorry but at the risk of "No True Scotsman," that doesn't sound
atheist to me. Sounds more like those anti-Christian New Agers who
recapitulate Christian theology while being hostile to the religion
they've copied.
Let me ask this: why would you believe in life on other planets to begin
with?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.
|
|
|
| User: "Carlos Trevino" |
|
| Title: Re: God guides the development of the universe & never has, and never will meddle in the affairs of mankind. |
18 Aug 2004 09:07:48 AM |
|
|
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message news:t8qdnYehbbsgPL_cRVn-ow@megapath.net...
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:49:05 +0000 in episode
<l3vUc.1742$t13.367@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com> we saw our hero "Carlos
Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net>:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:PtGdnVNSE51ywL_cRVn-oQ@megapath.net...
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:28:38 +0000 in episode
<WmqUc.1663$AP1.1225@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com> we saw our hero "Carlos
Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net>:
As an atheist I believed that one day an extraterrestrial would come
to earth and make our earth a better place. I would look at the stars
and be convinced that their was life in other planets.
Okay. So you haven't actually changed your beliefs at all then.
Mr. Bilbo, In what sense is your statement? Let me clarify my beliefs. Is
there life in a non-physical, yes. Did I believe in physical life outside
of earth as an atheist, yes. Do I believe in physical life outside of
earth now, No. Have my beliefs changed, extremely.
Look what you *said. You admit you believed some powerful being--for which
you had *no evidence--that existed in some "out there" was going to come
to earth and "save" us. That's recapitulation of Christian belief.
I'm sorry but at the risk of "No True Scotsman," that doesn't sound
atheist to me. Sounds more like those anti-Christian New Agers who
recapitulate Christian theology while being hostile to the religion
they've copied.
Let me ask this: why would you believe in life on other planets to begin
with?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
I was an atheist no I am not. What is the definition of an atheist? Let's see what
the dictionary says.
a·the·ist: n.
1. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being.
2. A godless person
So let me be even more clear with you. I, as an atheist, believed in little green men. Now I don't.
--
Carlos Trevino
Religion is a politically correct word for saying, "I do not
understand God but this is what I think He means." To
understand God is not through religion but through philosophy,
His Philosophy. We do not understand His Philosophy
because our mind is hostile, yet His Philosophy is
so simple that a child can grasp it, Love One Another.
phi·los·o·phy: Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means
and moral self-discipline. Investigation of the nature, causes,
or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical
reasoning rather than empirical methods.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: God guides the development of the universe & never has, and never will meddle in the affairs of mankind. |
18 Aug 2004 09:43:23 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:07:48 +0000 in episode
<UoJUc.2199$3p.109@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com> we saw our hero "Carlos
Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net>:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:t8qdnYehbbsgPL_cRVn-ow@megapath.net...
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:49:05 +0000 in episode
<l3vUc.1742$t13.367@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com> we saw our hero "Carlos
Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net>:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:PtGdnVNSE51ywL_cRVn-oQ@megapath.net...
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:28:38 +0000 in episode
<WmqUc.1663$AP1.1225@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com> we saw our hero
"Carlos Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net>:
As an atheist I believed that one day an extraterrestrial would
come to earth and make our earth a better place. I would look at
the stars and be convinced that their was life in other planets.
Okay. So you haven't actually changed your beliefs at all then.
Mr. Bilbo, In what sense is your statement? Let me clarify my beliefs.
Is there life in a non-physical, yes. Did I believe in physical life
outside of earth as an atheist, yes. Do I believe in physical life
outside of earth now, No. Have my beliefs changed, extremely.
Look what you *said. You admit you believed some powerful being--for
which you had *no evidence--that existed in some "out there" was going
to come to earth and "save" us. That's recapitulation of Christian
belief.
I'm sorry but at the risk of "No True Scotsman," that doesn't sound
atheist to me. Sounds more like those anti-Christian New Agers who
recapitulate Christian theology while being hostile to the religion
they've copied.
Let me ask this: why would you believe in life on other planets to begin
with?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
I was an atheist no I am not. What is the definition of an atheist? Let's
see what the dictionary says.
You obviously haven't been around me much if you think waving a dictionary
around is going to get you anywhere.
a·the·ist: n.
1. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or supreme
intelligent Being. 2. A godless person
So let me be even more clear with you. I, as an atheist, believed in
little green men. Now I don't.
You don't appear to "get" my point.
I'll say it again, while you *may have been atheist (and we really only
have your word on this... for all we know it's just a typical "witnessing"
tactic), what you *wrote displayed theistic thinking.
You *said that during this "atheistic" period, you believed in some
powerful being or beings for which you had *no evidence. That you
believed, again with *no evidence, they were going to someday arrive and
"make our earth a better place."
Sounds just like Christian belief to me. You may have regarded these
beings for which you had no evidence as "aliens" rather than as "gods" but
your own words show that they filled the *same *role in your thinking.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.
|
|
|
| User: "Carlos Trevino" |
|
| Title: Re: God guides the development of the universe & never has, and never will meddle in the affairs of mankind. |
18 Aug 2004 01:00:45 PM |
|
|
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message news:FKudnXW2JoCX9r7cRVn-ug@megapath.net...
On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:07:48 +0000 in episode
<UoJUc.2199$3p.109@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com> we saw our hero "Carlos
Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net>:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:t8qdnYehbbsgPL_cRVn-ow@megapath.net...
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:49:05 +0000 in episode
<l3vUc.1742$t13.367@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com> we saw our hero "Carlos
Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net>:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:PtGdnVNSE51ywL_cRVn-oQ@megapath.net...
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:28:38 +0000 in episode
<WmqUc.1663$AP1.1225@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com> we saw our hero
"Carlos Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net>:
As an atheist I believed that one day an extraterrestrial would
come to earth and make our earth a better place. I would look at
the stars and be convinced that their was life in other planets.
Okay. So you haven't actually changed your beliefs at all then.
Mr. Bilbo, In what sense is your statement? Let me clarify my beliefs.
Is there life in a non-physical, yes. Did I believe in physical life
outside of earth as an atheist, yes. Do I believe in physical life
outside of earth now, No. Have my beliefs changed, extremely.
Look what you *said. You admit you believed some powerful being--for
which you had *no evidence--that existed in some "out there" was going
to come to earth and "save" us. That's recapitulation of Christian
belief.
I'm sorry but at the risk of "No True Scotsman," that doesn't sound
atheist to me. Sounds more like those anti-Christian New Agers who
recapitulate Christian theology while being hostile to the religion
they've copied.
Let me ask this: why would you believe in life on other planets to begin
with?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
I was an atheist no I am not. What is the definition of an atheist? Let's
see what the dictionary says.
You obviously haven't been around me much if you think waving a dictionary
around is going to get you anywhere.
a·the·ist: n.
1. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or supreme
intelligent Being. 2. A godless person
So let me be even more clear with you. I, as an atheist, believed in
little green men. Now I don't.
You don't appear to "get" my point.
I'll say it again, while you *may have been atheist (and we really only
have your word on this... for all we know it's just a typical "witnessing"
tactic), what you *wrote displayed theistic thinking.
You *said that during this "atheistic" period, you believed in some
powerful being or beings for which you had *no evidence. That you
believed, again with *no evidence, they were going to someday arrive and
"make our earth a better place."
Sounds just like Christian belief to me. You may have regarded these
beings for which you had no evidence as "aliens" rather than as "gods" but
your own words show that they filled the *same *role in your thinking.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
Mark,
OK, now I get your point. You think I have a hidden agenda, that I'm conspiring
for non-belivers to believe in God by claiming I was once an atheist.
All I can say is that I have my word and if you do not believe me there is
really not much I can do or say to sway your judgement of me.
Now be honest about this. Is there some athiest, even atheist scientist,
that consider the possibility that there may be intelligent life in others planets?
Of course there is.
I now understand your accusation that my atheist thinking has a theist
tone. But this is how I would reason. If aliens landed on earth in a space
craft of course I would assume they are superior to us because of the
technology involved for space travel.
Now isn't safe to assume that if they possed such technology that maybe
we would benefit from enteracting with them? Of course we would, assuming
they are friendly to us.
I write on newsgroups to exchange ideas with people like you to talk about topics
like these and it is a pleasure to be able to exchange ideas thanks to our
modern technology that is the Internet. I respect your thoughts and in no way
do I think I am better than you or smarter, just different.
And I'll repeat it again, I don't blame atheist for not believing in God or religion
because I agree that many have suffered in the name of religion.
--
Carlos Trevino
Religion is a politically correct word for saying, "I do not
understand God but this is what I think He means." To
understand God is not through religion but through philosophy,
His Philosophy. We do not understand His Philosophy
because our mind is hostile, yet His Philosophy is
so simple that a child can grasp it, Love One Another.
phi·los·o·phy: Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means
and moral self-discipline. Investigation of the nature, causes,
or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical
reasoning rather than empirical methods.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: God guides the development of the universe & never has, and never will meddle in the affairs of mankind. |
18 Aug 2004 05:28:40 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:00:45 +0000 in episode
<hPMUc.1932$Hu.933@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com> we saw our hero "Carlos
Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net>:
OK, now I get your point. You think I have a hidden agenda, that I'm
conspiring for non-belivers to believe in God by claiming I was once an
atheist. All I can say is that I have my word and if you do not believe me
there is really not much I can do or say to sway your judgement of me.
I have no idea what you're on about. I don't think you've "hidden"
anything. I think you exposed yourself.
Now be honest about this. Is there some athiest, even atheist scientist,
that consider the possibility that there may be intelligent life in others
planets? Of course there is.
There is a difference between believing such a thing is possible, even
likely, and just *believing it is real.* Particularly the very *specific
beliefs you say you had.
I suspect life is probably common in the universe. Intelligent life rare
but likely given the sheer size of the universe. I find the idea that we
are "unique" to be highly questionable.
But you were talking about an absolute belief that such life was *certain.
You can't know that. No one does. You also stated you held a belief that
life was going to show up and make things "better" here on earth. Which is
an even weirder belief. Even if intelligent life is "out there" why would
they *care what goes on here? Why would they bother expending the *huge
resources it would require to travel here? Who says they have "answers"
anyway?
I now understand your accusation that my atheist thinking has a theist
tone. But this is how I would reason. If aliens landed on earth in a space
craft of course I would assume they are superior to us because of the
technology involved for space travel. Now isn't safe to assume that if
they possed such technology that maybe we would benefit from enteracting
with them? Of course we would, assuming they are friendly to us.
It's an interesting idea. I don't know that "technologically advanced"
makes anybody "superior." I don't know we'd "benefit" from the contact. In
fact, experience so far (granted, just here on earth) is that contact
between technically advanced societies and less advanced societies
*destroy the less advanced ones.
What would contact actually mean? Who the hell knows?
I write on newsgroups to exchange ideas with people like you to talk about
topics like these and it is a pleasure to be able to exchange ideas
thanks to our modern technology that is the Internet. I respect your
thoughts and in no way do I think I am better than you or smarter, just
different.
And I'll repeat it again, I don't blame atheist for not believing in God
or religion because I agree that many have suffered in the name of
religion.
That people have "suffered" is not germane really. It's the lack of
evidence that matters. Belief is simply not justified where evidence is
lacking. Even if a religion has been benevolent for its entire existence,
that has nothing to do with whether the "god" concept(s) relate to some
existing thing(s).
But this is sideways to what I found interesting. That being you may have
*called yourself "atheist" for some reason but the way you describe your
state of mind sounds like a Christian waiting for Jesus...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.
|
|
|
| User: "Carlos Trevino" |
|
| Title: Re: God guides the development of the universe & never has, and never will meddle in the affairs of mankind. |
18 Aug 2004 06:30:35 PM |
|
|
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message news:T9SdnSSJCZiKRb7cRVn-tQ@megapath.net...
On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:00:45 +0000 in episode
<hPMUc.1932$Hu.933@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com> we saw our hero "Carlos
Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net>:
OK, now I get your point. You think I have a hidden agenda, that I'm
conspiring for non-belivers to believe in God by claiming I was once an
atheist. All I can say is that I have my word and if you do not believe me
there is really not much I can do or say to sway your judgement of me.
I have no idea what you're on about. I don't think you've "hidden"
anything. I think you exposed yourself.
Now be honest about this. Is there some athiest, even atheist scientist,
that consider the possibility that there may be intelligent life in others
planets? Of course there is.
There is a difference between believing such a thing is possible, even
likely, and just *believing it is real.* Particularly the very *specific
beliefs you say you had.
I suspect life is probably common in the universe. Intelligent life rare
but likely given the sheer size of the universe. I find the idea that we
are "unique" to be highly questionable.
But you were talking about an absolute belief that such life was *certain.
You can't know that. No one does. You also stated you held a belief that
life was going to show up and make things "better" here on earth. Which is
an even weirder belief. Even if intelligent life is "out there" why would
they *care what goes on here? Why would they bother expending the *huge
resources it would require to travel here? Who says they have "answers"
anyway?
I now understand your accusation that my atheist thinking has a theist
tone. But this is how I would reason. If aliens landed on earth in a space
craft of course I would assume they are superior to us because of the
technology involved for space travel. Now isn't safe to assume that if
they possed such technology that maybe we would benefit from enteracting
with them? Of course we would, assuming they are friendly to us.
It's an interesting idea. I don't know that "technologically advanced"
makes anybody "superior." I don't know we'd "benefit" from the contact. In
fact, experience so far (granted, just here on earth) is that contact
between technically advanced societies and less advanced societies
*destroy the less advanced ones.
What would contact actually mean? Who the hell knows?
I write on newsgroups to exchange ideas with people like you to talk about
topics like these and it is a pleasure to be able to exchange ideas
thanks to our modern technology that is the Internet. I respect your
thoughts and in no way do I think I am better than you or smarter, just
different.
And I'll repeat it again, I don't blame atheist for not believing in God
or religion because I agree that many have suffered in the name of
religion.
That people have "suffered" is not germane really. It's the lack of
evidence that matters. Belief is simply not justified where evidence is
lacking. Even if a religion has been benevolent for its entire existence,
that has nothing to do with whether the "god" concept(s) relate to some
existing thing(s).
But this is sideways to what I found interesting. That being you may have
*called yourself "atheist" for some reason but the way you describe your
state of mind sounds like a Christian waiting for Jesus...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
Dear Mark,
In my closing comments I will not try to discredit you or to have the last word.
I just want comment on what I observe talking to people.
Whether we like it or not we all have to set boundaries in our mind as to
what is reality in order for most of us to have a stable mind.
Society and one's own up-bringing also have an influence on our perspectives
of reality. Some people are comfortable in dealing with reality in the strict
physical sense. Others reason that there must be more to life than just being
a living organism on this planet earth.
One thing is certain, in my observance, a lot of human strife is caused by not
understanding each others interpretation of reality. This, I must say, is one of the
main roots of our evil.
In this modern society it is now OK to speak up and denounce a God and now
more than ever there are more atheist people due to advances in science.
Am I hopping mad that such people exist? No. I say no because the past has
been dominated by religious majorities and we did not create peace on earth
and have actually caused a lot of suffering because of religion.
So my conclusion is, if we do not have unity in defining what is reality
It will be very difficult to live in peace with one another.
What it boils down to is a conflict of the minds and for that reason we can
not find peace. So what I am saying is that if all humans thought exactly alike
there would be peace on earth whether it's your concept of reality or mine.
If all humans thought alike their would be peace.
Will one day all humans have one concept of reality? I hope so, that way we
may find peace on earth. What are the chances of that happening? As a realist
I would have to say nil. As a person who has faith I will have to say yes, one
day that will be possible.
Regards,
Carlos
OK, Mark it was nice talking to you and hope we meet up again.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: God guides the development of the universe & never has, and never will meddle in the affairs of mankind. |
19 Aug 2004 02:55:16 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 23:30:35 +0000 in episode
<vERUc.8712$bD2.1947@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> we saw our hero "Carlos
Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net>:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:T9SdnSSJCZiKRb7cRVn-tQ@megapath.net...
On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:00:45 +0000 in episode
<hPMUc.1932$Hu.933@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com> we saw our hero "Carlos
Trevino" <juanct@swbell.net>:
OK, now I get your point. You think I have a hidden agenda, that I'm
conspiring for non-belivers to believe in God by claiming I was once
an atheist. All I can say is that I have my word and if you do not
believe me there is really not much I can do or say to sway your
judgement of me.
I have no idea what you're on about. I don't think you've "hidden"
anything. I think you exposed | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
