God is manmade but rational thought often does not win over religious indoctrination (brainwashing) since early childhood



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Carl Sagans billions"
Date: 22 Apr 2007 01:15:37 AM
Object: God is manmade but rational thought often does not win over religious indoctrination (brainwashing) since early childhood
10 Simple Observations:
1. All religions and gods are 'man' made. Made and made up
by human beings. Not necessarily to deceive but as a
product of (new) ideas and concepts that evolved and were then
assumed to be the (new) truth, the (new) philosophy of life,
the (new) gospel, or the (new) true religion.
2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
Why? Evolution is a fact but nowhere in the long line of evolution
was the 'soul' (or something like the soul that makes us immortal)
suddenly inserted in a certain species at a discrete point in time.
If I assume that the soul was suddenly inserted in a living
being, e.g. 1 million years ago, we must then argue that his
or her father and mother did not have a soul. We cannot.
This means:
All living beings have a soul or no living beings have a soul. As I
don't believe a worm has a soul, I must conclude that the concept
of a soul in each human being can only be a manmade construct.
A manmade construct because we have a need to believe that
we (or at least our 'spirit' or our 'soul') will exist forever.
We fear death, we fear being gone forever.
We want to deny death, we need to believe we are immortal.
We do not want to accept that we are a fluke of nature.
We have a need to manufacture a reason for our existence.
3. There is no heaven and hell. All religions are manmade, and
the concepts of heaven and hell are manmade. They were created
when social groups evolved culturally. To keep individual behavior in
line and within boundaries - to be beneficial to the group or to
its leaders. Heaven was a carrot, hell was the stick.
4. The Christian dogma of sin, with human beings having free choice
to obey or disobey, is untenable, as 'sin', killing, fighting, etc.,
already existed millions of years before human beings
(with increased brain size) came about.
That means in the long line of evolution there was never a discrete
point where the 'first' human being suddenly had free choice to obey
or disobey. That also means the dogma of Christ's death at the cross
to atone for our sins is untenable. Human beings evolved and never
(suddenly) had free choice to obey or dis-obey (=sin).
The manmade Christian God sacrificed his son to atone for all
sins forever for all times. That brilliant idea arose from much older
pagan religions that had human sacrifices at their core. The ultimate
sacrifice for redemption was to offer your own son, as in the
Abraham-Isaac story. Thta's why Christ - the Son - had to die.
As homo sapiens evolved over millions of years, there was
never an Adam and Eve 6000 years ago. That means Eve disobeying
God and eating from the fruit never happened. That means the 'fall'
in the garden of Eden never happened. That also means a 'fall' e.g.
a million years earlier never happened. That means the philosophy
of Christ having to die for our original sin, for disobeying God, has
no
basis. Our ancestors millions of years ago did not
have the brains nor the choice to obey or disobey.
5. The Christian concept that you can only be saved by accepting
Christ as your savior is untenable. As over 4.5 billion on earth are
not Christians and don't even know about Christ,
it is illogical to assume that God automatically condemns
4.5 billion out of 6.5 billion to hell = eternal suffering.
6. All religions are manmade, which explains the huge variety of
religions. Any evolving human society develops beliefs about life and
death, which then often morph into absolute beliefs and then often
into structured beliefs = religion. That's why there are so
many religions, so many spin-offs of existing religions, and why so
many new spin-offs are created all the time, all over the world.
7. All religions and their spin-offs are manmade, and the concept of
'God' including the 'God' of Christianity, Islam and Judaism is man
made.
As nowhere in the material world we see physical acts/actions by
a 'God' on matter, there is no reason to assume that an immaterial
God like the Christian God (who controls, guards, acts on matter
and interferes in our world) exists.
8. So we have to face the fact, courageously, and conclude that:
GOD IS ABSENT, IS DEAD OR DOES NOT EXIST.
As I find it illogical that if an all powerfull God existed, he would
decide to disappear from our material world = universe into some
other universe, or even die, i.e. disappear from all possible
universes, there is only one conclusion left:
There is no God applying material forces on or into our physical
environment. That means all physical and chemical occurrances
can be explained (sooner or later) without having to introduce a
supernatural and 'immaterial' being capable of and actively
acting on matter. Therefore the Christian God does not exist.
You can only exist tied to matter. You only exist if you
act upon matter. When tied to matter, it can be
observed, measured, etc., and thus be proven to exist.
Example:
In the tsunami near Sumatra up to 100,000 innocent children
were killed in just one hour.
'God' did not do it.
'Satan' did not do it.
Humans did not do it.
The earth core is cooling, forcing huge plates to move,
which occasionaly rupture or fracture into earthquakes,
volcanic eruptions, etc., which then can cause terrible
natural catastrophes such as this tsunami.
Nowhere did or does the 'hand of God' act anywhere.
9. The mystery of matter and the most crucial question and
mystery of all
--- 'WHY WE (made of matter) EXIST' ----
does not mean we have to assume an all powerful being like the
Christian God who creates, controls, rules and monitors everything.
In the last 1000 years more and more mysteries have been explained.
In the coming thousands of years many more mysteries will be
resolved. That means religious beliefs get pushed back more and
more, and away from the current simple absolute religious 'truths'
and beliefs as described in 'holy' books. Religions consist of a
large mixture of man made philosophies, myths, theories,
taboos, legends, laws, remnants of pagan religions, etc.,
explanations from hundreds of years or even much longer ago,
and are being pushed back or voided by science and much
more rational explanations.
That also means a religion such as Christianity can only survive if
it develops a much better explanation and rationale for the mystery
of matter and life, and for our existence. However Christianity cannot
're-engineer' itself. It cannot offer a science-based explanation of
life, or even reform itself into a much more rational philosophy of
life.
So it will remain an anti-scientific belief system based on fixed
explanations for life and death, made by men and women
who lived hundreds and even thousands of years ago.
So the contradiction between what we learn from science
and the fixed explanations from hundreds and thousands of years
ago will grow. Christianity and other similar religions likely will
slowly die. The deep psychological human need for spirituality
will not disappear, but the dogmas and beliefs of religions such
as Christianity, Islam and Judaism will become less and less
acceptable to more and more people.
10. The core issue is a direct conflict between:
o the religious/emotional/non-scientific approach or persona and
o the scientific/rational approach or persona
Spirituality will stay in various forms, but dogmatic religions based
on ancient beliefs will slowly disappear or remain with smaller
and smaller groups of the uneducated or un-enlightened
or the desperate or the frightened or the indoctrinated.
There may be long religious revivals and reactions but
on longer terms science and associated
education will (albeit slowly) void ancient belief systems.
However, religions can very well hang on for a long long time,
despite becoming more unsatisfactory to more people, e.g. if
and when there are no other enticing spiritual/social frameworks
as substitutes or replacements.
This basic conflict is also why so many religions, including
Christianity, in their core are so anti-science. They can never
embrace a much more rational belief system that so clearly
exposes the fallacies in their inherited belief system.
Michael M. Terra
.

User: "-HoSt-"

Title: Re: God is manmade but rational thought often does not win over religious indoctrination (brainwashing) since early childhood 22 Apr 2007 12:41:53 PM
"Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2terra@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1177222537.871392.15180@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

10 Simple Observations:

1. All religions and gods are 'man' made. Made and made up
by human beings. Not necessarily to deceive but as a
product of (new) ideas and concepts that evolved and were then
assumed to be the (new) truth, the (new) philosophy of life,
the (new) gospel, or the (new) true religion.

2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
Why? Evolution is a fact but nowhere in the long line of evolution
was the 'soul' (or something like the soul that makes us immortal)
suddenly inserted in a certain species at a discrete point in time.

If I assume that the soul was suddenly inserted in a living
being, e.g. 1 million years ago, we must then argue that his
or her father and mother did not have a soul. We cannot.
This means:

All living beings have a soul or no living beings have a soul. As I
don't believe a worm has a soul, I must conclude that the concept
of a soul in each human being can only be a manmade construct.
A manmade construct because we have a need to believe that
we (or at least our 'spirit' or our 'soul') will exist forever.
We fear death, we fear being gone forever.
We want to deny death, we need to believe we are immortal.
We do not want to accept that we are a fluke of nature.
We have a need to manufacture a reason for our existence.

3. There is no heaven and hell. All religions are manmade, and
the concepts of heaven and hell are manmade. They were created
when social groups evolved culturally. To keep individual behavior in
line and within boundaries - to be beneficial to the group or to
its leaders. Heaven was a carrot, hell was the stick.

4. The Christian dogma of sin, with human beings having free choice
to obey or disobey, is untenable, as 'sin', killing, fighting, etc.,
already existed millions of years before human beings
(with increased brain size) came about.

That means in the long line of evolution there was never a discrete
point where the 'first' human being suddenly had free choice to obey
or disobey. That also means the dogma of Christ's death at the cross
to atone for our sins is untenable. Human beings evolved and never
(suddenly) had free choice to obey or dis-obey (=sin).

The manmade Christian God sacrificed his son to atone for all
sins forever for all times. That brilliant idea arose from much older
pagan religions that had human sacrifices at their core. The ultimate
sacrifice for redemption was to offer your own son, as in the
Abraham-Isaac story. Thta's why Christ - the Son - had to die.

As homo sapiens evolved over millions of years, there was
never an Adam and Eve 6000 years ago. That means Eve disobeying
God and eating from the fruit never happened. That means the 'fall'
in the garden of Eden never happened. That also means a 'fall' e.g.
a million years earlier never happened. That means the philosophy
of Christ having to die for our original sin, for disobeying God, has
no
basis. Our ancestors millions of years ago did not
have the brains nor the choice to obey or disobey.

5. The Christian concept that you can only be saved by accepting
Christ as your savior is untenable. As over 4.5 billion on earth are
not Christians and don't even know about Christ,
it is illogical to assume that God automatically condemns
4.5 billion out of 6.5 billion to hell = eternal suffering.

6. All religions are manmade, which explains the huge variety of
religions. Any evolving human society develops beliefs about life and
death, which then often morph into absolute beliefs and then often
into structured beliefs = religion. That's why there are so
many religions, so many spin-offs of existing religions, and why so
many new spin-offs are created all the time, all over the world.

7. All religions and their spin-offs are manmade, and the concept of
'God' including the 'God' of Christianity, Islam and Judaism is man
made.

As nowhere in the material world we see physical acts/actions by
a 'God' on matter, there is no reason to assume that an immaterial
God like the Christian God (who controls, guards, acts on matter
and interferes in our world) exists.

8. So we have to face the fact, courageously, and conclude that:
GOD IS ABSENT, IS DEAD OR DOES NOT EXIST.

As I find it illogical that if an all powerfull God existed, he would
decide to disappear from our material world = universe into some
other universe, or even die, i.e. disappear from all possible
universes, there is only one conclusion left:

There is no God applying material forces on or into our physical
environment. That means all physical and chemical occurrances
can be explained (sooner or later) without having to introduce a
supernatural and 'immaterial' being capable of and actively
acting on matter. Therefore the Christian God does not exist.
You can only exist tied to matter. You only exist if you
act upon matter. When tied to matter, it can be
observed, measured, etc., and thus be proven to exist.

Example:
In the tsunami near Sumatra up to 100,000 innocent children
were killed in just one hour.
'God' did not do it.
'Satan' did not do it.
Humans did not do it.
The earth core is cooling, forcing huge plates to move,
which occasionaly rupture or fracture into earthquakes,
volcanic eruptions, etc., which then can cause terrible
natural catastrophes such as this tsunami.
Nowhere did or does the 'hand of God' act anywhere.

9. The mystery of matter and the most crucial question and
mystery of all

--- 'WHY WE (made of matter) EXIST' ----

does not mean we have to assume an all powerful being like the
Christian God who creates, controls, rules and monitors everything.

In the last 1000 years more and more mysteries have been explained.

In the coming thousands of years many more mysteries will be
resolved. That means religious beliefs get pushed back more and
more, and away from the current simple absolute religious 'truths'
and beliefs as described in 'holy' books. Religions consist of a
large mixture of man made philosophies, myths, theories,
taboos, legends, laws, remnants of pagan religions, etc.,
explanations from hundreds of years or even much longer ago,
and are being pushed back or voided by science and much
more rational explanations.

That also means a religion such as Christianity can only survive if
it develops a much better explanation and rationale for the mystery
of matter and life, and for our existence. However Christianity cannot
're-engineer' itself. It cannot offer a science-based explanation of
life, or even reform itself into a much more rational philosophy of
life.

So it will remain an anti-scientific belief system based on fixed
explanations for life and death, made by men and women
who lived hundreds and even thousands of years ago.

So the contradiction between what we learn from science
and the fixed explanations from hundreds and thousands of years
ago will grow. Christianity and other similar religions likely will
slowly die. The deep psychological human need for spirituality
will not disappear, but the dogmas and beliefs of religions such
as Christianity, Islam and Judaism will become less and less
acceptable to more and more people.

10. The core issue is a direct conflict between:

o the religious/emotional/non-scientific approach or persona and

o the scientific/rational approach or persona

Spirituality will stay in various forms, but dogmatic religions based
on ancient beliefs will slowly disappear or remain with smaller
and smaller groups of the uneducated or un-enlightened
or the desperate or the frightened or the indoctrinated.

There may be long religious revivals and reactions but
on longer terms science and associated
education will (albeit slowly) void ancient belief systems.
However, religions can very well hang on for a long long time,
despite becoming more unsatisfactory to more people, e.g. if
and when there are no other enticing spiritual/social frameworks
as substitutes or replacements.

This basic conflict is also why so many religions, including
Christianity, in their core are so anti-science. They can never
embrace a much more rational belief system that so clearly
exposes the fallacies in their inherited belief system.
Michael M. Terra

Sucks to be ignorant like you.
H.
.
User: "Robibnikoff"

Title: Re: God is manmade but rational thought often does not win over religious indoctrination (brainwashing) since early childhood 24 Apr 2007 09:05:48 AM
"-HoSt-" <host@universe.com> wrote in message
news:463b6$462b8fa8$4088c657$13573@EVERESTKC.NET...


"Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2terra@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1177222537.871392.15180@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

10 Simple Observations:

1. All religions and gods are 'man' made. Made and made up
by human beings. Not necessarily to deceive but as a
product of (new) ideas and concepts that evolved and were then
assumed to be the (new) truth, the (new) philosophy of life,
the (new) gospel, or the (new) true religion.

2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
Why? Evolution is a fact but nowhere in the long line of evolution
was the 'soul' (or something like the soul that makes us immortal)
suddenly inserted in a certain species at a discrete point in time.

If I assume that the soul was suddenly inserted in a living
being, e.g. 1 million years ago, we must then argue that his
or her father and mother did not have a soul. We cannot.
This means:

All living beings have a soul or no living beings have a soul. As I
don't believe a worm has a soul, I must conclude that the concept
of a soul in each human being can only be a manmade construct.
A manmade construct because we have a need to believe that
we (or at least our 'spirit' or our 'soul') will exist forever.
We fear death, we fear being gone forever.
We want to deny death, we need to believe we are immortal.
We do not want to accept that we are a fluke of nature.
We have a need to manufacture a reason for our existence.

3. There is no heaven and hell. All religions are manmade, and
the concepts of heaven and hell are manmade. They were created
when social groups evolved culturally. To keep individual behavior in
line and within boundaries - to be beneficial to the group or to
its leaders. Heaven was a carrot, hell was the stick.

4. The Christian dogma of sin, with human beings having free choice
to obey or disobey, is untenable, as 'sin', killing, fighting, etc.,
already existed millions of years before human beings
(with increased brain size) came about.

That means in the long line of evolution there was never a discrete
point where the 'first' human being suddenly had free choice to obey
or disobey. That also means the dogma of Christ's death at the cross
to atone for our sins is untenable. Human beings evolved and never
(suddenly) had free choice to obey or dis-obey (=sin).

The manmade Christian God sacrificed his son to atone for all
sins forever for all times. That brilliant idea arose from much older
pagan religions that had human sacrifices at their core. The ultimate
sacrifice for redemption was to offer your own son, as in the
Abraham-Isaac story. Thta's why Christ - the Son - had to die.

As homo sapiens evolved over millions of years, there was
never an Adam and Eve 6000 years ago. That means Eve disobeying
God and eating from the fruit never happened. That means the 'fall'
in the garden of Eden never happened. That also means a 'fall' e.g.
a million years earlier never happened. That means the philosophy
of Christ having to die for our original sin, for disobeying God, has
no
basis. Our ancestors millions of years ago did not
have the brains nor the choice to obey or disobey.

5. The Christian concept that you can only be saved by accepting
Christ as your savior is untenable. As over 4.5 billion on earth are
not Christians and don't even know about Christ,
it is illogical to assume that God automatically condemns
4.5 billion out of 6.5 billion to hell = eternal suffering.

6. All religions are manmade, which explains the huge variety of
religions. Any evolving human society develops beliefs about life and
death, which then often morph into absolute beliefs and then often
into structured beliefs = religion. That's why there are so
many religions, so many spin-offs of existing religions, and why so
many new spin-offs are created all the time, all over the world.

7. All religions and their spin-offs are manmade, and the concept of
'God' including the 'God' of Christianity, Islam and Judaism is man
made.

As nowhere in the material world we see physical acts/actions by
a 'God' on matter, there is no reason to assume that an immaterial
God like the Christian God (who controls, guards, acts on matter
and interferes in our world) exists.

8. So we have to face the fact, courageously, and conclude that:
GOD IS ABSENT, IS DEAD OR DOES NOT EXIST.

As I find it illogical that if an all powerfull God existed, he would
decide to disappear from our material world = universe into some
other universe, or even die, i.e. disappear from all possible
universes, there is only one conclusion left:

There is no God applying material forces on or into our physical
environment. That means all physical and chemical occurrances
can be explained (sooner or later) without having to introduce a
supernatural and 'immaterial' being capable of and actively
acting on matter. Therefore the Christian God does not exist.
You can only exist tied to matter. You only exist if you
act upon matter. When tied to matter, it can be
observed, measured, etc., and thus be proven to exist.

Example:
In the tsunami near Sumatra up to 100,000 innocent children
were killed in just one hour.
'God' did not do it.
'Satan' did not do it.
Humans did not do it.
The earth core is cooling, forcing huge plates to move,
which occasionaly rupture or fracture into earthquakes,
volcanic eruptions, etc., which then can cause terrible
natural catastrophes such as this tsunami.
Nowhere did or does the 'hand of God' act anywhere.

9. The mystery of matter and the most crucial question and
mystery of all

--- 'WHY WE (made of matter) EXIST' ----

does not mean we have to assume an all powerful being like the
Christian God who creates, controls, rules and monitors everything.

In the last 1000 years more and more mysteries have been explained.

In the coming thousands of years many more mysteries will be
resolved. That means religious beliefs get pushed back more and
more, and away from the current simple absolute religious 'truths'
and beliefs as described in 'holy' books. Religions consist of a
large mixture of man made philosophies, myths, theories,
taboos, legends, laws, remnants of pagan religions, etc.,
explanations from hundreds of years or even much longer ago,
and are being pushed back or voided by science and much
more rational explanations.

That also means a religion such as Christianity can only survive if
it develops a much better explanation and rationale for the mystery
of matter and life, and for our existence. However Christianity cannot
're-engineer' itself. It cannot offer a science-based explanation of
life, or even reform itself into a much more rational philosophy of
life.

So it will remain an anti-scientific belief system based on fixed
explanations for life and death, made by men and women
who lived hundreds and even thousands of years ago.

So the contradiction between what we learn from science
and the fixed explanations from hundreds and thousands of years
ago will grow. Christianity and other similar religions likely will
slowly die. The deep psychological human need for spirituality
will not disappear, but the dogmas and beliefs of religions such
as Christianity, Islam and Judaism will become less and less
acceptable to more and more people.

10. The core issue is a direct conflict between:

o the religious/emotional/non-scientific approach or persona and

o the scientific/rational approach or persona

Spirituality will stay in various forms, but dogmatic religions based
on ancient beliefs will slowly disappear or remain with smaller
and smaller groups of the uneducated or un-enlightened
or the desperate or the frightened or the indoctrinated.

There may be long religious revivals and reactions but
on longer terms science and associated
education will (albeit slowly) void ancient belief systems.
However, religions can very well hang on for a long long time,
despite becoming more unsatisfactory to more people, e.g. if
and when there are no other enticing spiritual/social frameworks
as substitutes or replacements.

This basic conflict is also why so many religions, including
Christianity, in their core are so anti-science. They can never
embrace a much more rational belief system that so clearly
exposes the fallacies in their inherited belief system.
Michael M. Terra


Sucks to be ignorant like you.
H.

Wow. That's telling him.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
.


User: "Icarus"

Title: Re: God is manmade but rational thought often does not win over religious indoctrination (brainwashing) since early childhood 23 Apr 2007 01:48:38 PM
Carl Sagan's billions wrote:

10 Simple Observations:

1. All religions and gods are 'man' made.

<snippage>
Correctamundo. Good post.
.
User: "TJOzzie"

Title: Re: God is manmade but rational thought often does not win over religious indoctrination (brainwashing) since early childhood 23 Apr 2007 05:09:29 PM
"Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com> wrote in message
news:594ddhF2i4rloU1@mid.individual.net...

Carl Sagan's billions wrote:

10 Simple Observations:

1. All religions and gods are 'man' made.

<snippage>

Correctamundo. Good post.

I agree. A very good post.
I am one of the few who overcame the early brainwashing. I grew up catholic
(even wanted to be a priest for a bit). Then, around second grade, I started
to question things. I grew up on a farm, and I saw evolution in evidence
every day of my life. When I questioned the priests about it, I either got
yelled at or told that "man is not capable of understanding god's
mysteries." When I questioned the nuns, I got yelled at and hit.
I quickly learned to ask my parents, who, though catholic, were fairly open
minded. They'd been farmers for most of their lives. They'd seen the same
things I'd seen, but came to different conclusions. Instead of shutting me
down, however, they sent me to the library (the Internet was decades away.)
Over a period of fifteen or sixteen years of research into mostly religious,
scientific, and philosophical writings, I slowly came to the realization
that I wasn't catholic anymore, and finally that I wasn't a theist. At the
age of 24, I 'came out' as an atheist. It hurt my parents at first, but they
came to accept my beliefs and even admire my conclusions to some extent.
I'm now almost fifty, and I've questioned those decisions nearly every day
of my life since then. I add in new arguments for and against as I learn of
them, and I keep coming to the same conclusion - I don't believe there is a
god.
I don't expect everyone to come to the same conclusions I did, even when
weighing the same data. All *I* would ask of anyone reading this, is that
they think honestly about their beliefs. Question everything. Don't accept
the answers someone else taught you, think for yourself. There is more than
just one book.
.
User: "John Blake"

Title: Re: God is manmade but rational thought often does not win over religious indoctrination (brainwashing) since early childhood 24 Apr 2007 04:13:47 AM
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:09:29 -0400, "TJOzzie" <tjozzie@mail.com>
wrote:


"Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com> wrote in message
news:594ddhF2i4rloU1@mid.individual.net...

Carl Sagan's billions wrote:

10 Simple Observations:

1. All religions and gods are 'man' made.

<snippage>

Correctamundo. Good post.

I agree. A very good post.

I am one of the few who overcame the early brainwashing. I grew up catholic
(even wanted to be a priest for a bit). Then, around second grade, I started
to question things. I grew up on a farm, and I saw evolution in evidence
every day of my life. When I questioned the priests about it, I either got
yelled at or told that "man is not capable of understanding god's
mysteries." When I questioned the nuns, I got yelled at and hit.

I quickly learned to ask my parents, who, though catholic, were fairly open
minded. They'd been farmers for most of their lives. They'd seen the same
things I'd seen, but came to different conclusions. Instead of shutting me
down, however, they sent me to the library (the Internet was decades away.)
Over a period of fifteen or sixteen years of research into mostly religious,
scientific, and philosophical writings, I slowly came to the realization
that I wasn't catholic anymore, and finally that I wasn't a theist. At the
age of 24, I 'came out' as an atheist. It hurt my parents at first, but they
came to accept my beliefs and even admire my conclusions to some extent.

I'm now almost fifty, and I've questioned those decisions nearly every day
of my life since then. I add in new arguments for and against as I learn of
them, and I keep coming to the same conclusion - I don't believe there is a
god.

I don't expect everyone to come to the same conclusions I did, even when
weighing the same data. All *I* would ask of anyone reading this, is that
they think honestly about their beliefs. Question everything. Don't accept
the answers someone else taught you, think for yourself. There is more than
just one book.

I hope you don't mind but I would just like to say "Well done!" It
must take a great deal of courage to go against the establishment (in
your case, the catholic church), your peers and others around you. I
never had that problem as, although most of those around me claimed
religious belief, they were only going along with the stream and
hadn't really given it any serious thought. Now pushing 70, I'm still
as sceptical with regard to the supernatural as ever, particularly
with the concept of a god.
I spent some time questioning theists on the UKRC news group, in an
attempt to find out just why they believed what they did but I had
very limited success, unfortunately. I stopped posting to the group
when it became obvious that the Church just made it all up as it went
along, changing its views to conform to the current popular way of
thinking in many cases; 'modernising', I think it's called. Their
bible seems to have been abandoned by most of them, except when it
suits of course.
The whole issue is a sham IMO. Just a way of controlling the people
which grew out of superstition and is now force fed to the young in an
attempt to keep it going. Unfortunately, too few are able to overcome
the brainwashing as you have.

JB
.
User: "skeptic griggsy"

Title: Re: God is manmade but rational thought often does not win over religious indoctrination (brainwashing) since early childhood 24 Apr 2007 04:09:50 PM
On 24 Apr, 05:13, John Blake <johnremovethisbl...@f2s.com> wrote:

On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:09:29 -0400, "TJOzzie" <tjoz...@mail.com>
wrote:







"Icarus" <icarus...@email.com> wrote in message
news:594ddhF2i4rloU1@mid.individual.net...

Carl Sagan's billions wrote:

10 Simple Observations:


1. All religions and gods are 'man' made.

<snippage>


Correctamundo. Good post.


I agree. A very good post.


I am one of the few who overcame the early brainwashing. I grew up catholic
(even wanted to be a priest for a bit). Then, around second grade, I started
to question things. I grew up on a farm, and I saw evolution in evidence
every day of my life. When I questioned the priests about it, I either got
yelled at or told that "man is not capable of understanding god's
mysteries." When I questioned the nuns, I got yelled at and hit.


I quickly learned to ask my parents, who, though catholic, were fairly open
minded. They'd been farmers for most of their lives. They'd seen the same
things I'd seen, but came to different conclusions. Instead of shutting me
down, however, they sent me to the library (the Internet was decades away.)
Over a period of fifteen or sixteen years of research into mostly religious,
scientific, and philosophical writings, I slowly came to the realization
that I wasn't catholic anymore, and finally that I wasn't a theist. At the
age of 24, I 'came out' as an atheist. It hurt my parents at first, but they
came to accept my beliefs and even admire my conclusions to some extent.


I'm now almost fifty, and I've questioned those decisions nearly every day
of my life since then. I add in new arguments for and against as I learn of
them, and I keep coming to the same conclusion - I don't believe there is a
god.


I don't expect everyone to come to the same conclusions I did, even when
weighing the same data. All *I* would ask of anyone reading this, is that
they think honestly about their beliefs. Question everything. Don't accept
the answers someone else taught you, think for yourself. There is more than
just one book.


I hope you don't mind but I would just like to say "Well done!" It
must take a great deal of courage to go against the establishment (in
your case, the catholic church), your peers and others around you. I
never had that problem as, although most of those around me claimed
religious belief, they were only going along with the stream and
hadn't really given it any serious thought. Now pushing 70, I'm still
as sceptical with regard to the supernatural as ever, particularly
with the concept of a god.

I spent some time questioning theists on the UKRC news group, in an
attempt to find out just why they believed what they did but I had
very limited success, unfortunately. I stopped posting to the group
when it became obvious that the Church just made it all up as it went
along, changing its views to conform to the current popular way of
thinking in many cases; 'modernising', I think it's called. Their
bible seems to have been abandoned by most of them, except when it
suits of course.

The whole issue is a sham IMO. Just a way of controlling the people
which grew out of superstition and is now force fed to the young in an
attempt to keep it going. Unfortunately, too few are able to overcome
the brainwashing as you have.

JB- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text - The ignotist argument is that God is the mere tautology that God wills what He wills and just"hides our ignorance behind a theological fig leaf." That is so unimformative. Thus, God serves as no explanation whatsoever.

.




User: "Lawson English"

Title: Re: God is manmade but rational thought often does not win over religiousindoctrination (brainwashing) since early childhood 22 Apr 2007 10:36:11 PM
Carl Sagan's billions wrote:

10 Simple Observations:

1. All religions and gods are 'man' made. Made and made up
by human beings. Not necessarily to deceive but as a
product of (new) ideas and concepts that evolved and were then
assumed to be the (new) truth, the (new) philosophy of life,
the (new) gospel, or the (new) true religion.

2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
Why? Evolution is a fact but nowhere in the long line of evolution
was the 'soul' (or something like the soul that makes us immortal)
suddenly inserted in a certain species at a discrete point in time.

If I assume that the soul was suddenly inserted in a living
being, e.g. 1 million years ago, we must then argue that his
or her father and mother did not have a soul. We cannot.
This means:

All living beings have a soul or no living beings have a soul. As I
don't believe a worm has a soul, I must conclude that the concept
of a soul in each human being can only be a manmade construct.

Too bad. There are plenty of religions that DO believe that souls
inhabit all manner of living beings. Some even hold that plants have
souls, but don't tell Jains that....
.


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