| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Sound of Trumpet" |
| Date: |
26 Oct 2006 04:10:45 PM |
| Object: |
God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/22/INGA9LRRPN1.DTL
God knows why faith is thriving
Dinesh D'Souza
Sunday, October 22, 2006
A group of leading atheists is puzzled by the continued existence and
vitality of religion.
As biologist Richard Dawkins puts it in his new book "The God
Delusion," faith is a form of irrationality, what he terms a "virus of
the mind." Philosopher Daniel Dennett compares belief in God to belief
in the Easter Bunny. Sam Harris, author of "The End of Faith" and now
"Letter to a Christian Nation," professes amazement that hundreds of
millions of people worldwide profess religious beliefs when there is no
rational evidence for any of those beliefs. Biologist E.O. Wilson says
there must be some evolutionary explanation for the universality and
pervasiveness of religious belief.
Actually, there is. The Rev. Ron Carlson, a popular author and
lecturer, sometimes presents his audience with two stories and asks
them whether it matters which one is true.
In the secular account, "You are the descendant of a tiny cell of
primordial protoplasm washed up on an empty beach 3 1/2 billion years
ago. You are a mere grab bag of atomic particles, a conglomeration of
genetic substance. You exist on a tiny planet in a minute solar system
in an empty corner of a meaningless universe. You came from nothing and
are going nowhere."
In the Christian view, by contrast, "You are the special creation of a
good and all-powerful God. You are the climax of His creation. Not only
is your kind unique, but you are unique among your kind. Your Creator
loves you so much and so intensely desires your companionship and
affection that He gave the life of His only son that you might spend
eternity with him."
Now imagine two groups of people -- let's call them the Secular Tribe
and the Religious Tribe -- who subscribe to one of these two views.
Which of the two is more likely to survive, prosper and multiply? The
religious tribe is made up of people who have an animating sense of
purpose. The secular tribe is made up of people who are not sure why
they exist at all. The religious tribe is composed of individuals who
view their every thought and action as consequential. The secular tribe
is made up of matter that cannot explain why it is able to think at
all.
Should evolutionists like Dennett, Dawkins, Harris and Wilson be
surprised, then, to see that religious tribes are flourishing around
the world? Across the globe, religious faith is thriving and religious
people are having more children. By contrast, atheist conventions only
draw a handful of embittered souls, and the atheist lifestyle seems to
produce listless tribes that cannot even reproduce themselves.
Russia is one of the most atheist countries in the world, and there
abortions outnumber live births 2 to 1. Russia's birth rate has fallen
so low that the nation is now losing 700,000 people a year. Japan,
perhaps the most secular country in Asia, is also on a kind of
population diet: its 130 million people are expected to drop to around
100 million in the next few decades. And then there is Europe. The most
secular continent on the globe is decadent in the literal sense that
its population is rapidly shrinking. Lacking the strong Christian
identity that produced its greatness, atheist Europe seems to be a
civilization on its way out. We have met Nietzsche's "last man" and his
name is Sven.
Traditionally, scholars have tried to give an economic explanation for
these trends. The general idea is that population was a function of
affluence. Sociologists noted that as people and countries became
richer, they had fewer children. Presumably, primitive societies needed
children to help in the fields, and more-prosperous societies no longer
did. From this perspective, religion was explained as a phenomenon of
poverty, insecurity and fear, and many pundits predicted that with the
spread of modernity and prosperity, religion would fade away.
The economic explanation is now being questioned. It was never all that
plausible anyway. Undoubtedly, poor people are more economically
dependent on their children, but on the other hand, rich people can
afford more children. Wealthy people in America today tend to have one
child or none, but wealthy families in the past tended to have three or
more children. The real difference is not merely in the level of
income. The real difference is that in the past, children were valued
as gifts from God, and now they are viewed by many people as
instruments of self-gratification. The old principle was, "Be fruitful
and multiply." The new one is, "Have as many children as enhance your
lifestyle."
The prophets of the disappearance of religion seem to have proven
themselves to be false prophets. Even though the world is becoming
richer, religion seems to be getting stronger. The United States is the
richest and most technologically advanced society in the world, and
religion shows no signs of disappearing on these shores. China and
India are growing in affluence, and the Chinese government is not
exactly hospitable to religion, yet religious belief and practice
continue to be strong in both countries. Europe's best chance to grow
in the future seems to be to import more religious Muslims. While Islam
spreads in Europe and elsewhere, Christianity is spreading even faster
in Africa, Asia and South America. Remarkably, Christianity will soon
become a non-Western religion with a minority presence among Europeans.
My conclusion is that it is not religion but atheism that requires a
Darwinian explanation. It seems perplexing why nature would breed a
group of people who see no purpose to life or the universe, indeed
whose only moral drive seems to be sneering at their fellow human
beings who do have a sense of purpose. Here is where the biological
expertise of Dawkins and his friends could prove illuminating. Maybe
they can turn their Darwinian lens on themselves and help us understand
how atheism, like the human tailbone and the panda's thumb, somehow
survived as an evolutionary leftover of our primitive past.
Dinesh D'Souza's new book "The Enemy at Home: The Cultural Left and Its
Responsibility for 9/11" will be published in January by Doubleday. He
is the Rishwain Fellow at the Hoover Institution. Contact us at
insight@sfchronicle.com.
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| User: "Bill M" |
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| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
26 Oct 2006 07:02:51 PM |
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"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@myway.com> wrote in message
news:1161897045.910746.57540@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/22/INGA9LRRPN1.DTL
God knows why faith is thriving
Dinesh D'Souza
Sunday, October 22, 2006
A group of leading atheists is puzzled by the continued existence and
vitality of religion.
As biologist Richard Dawkins puts it in his new book "The God
Delusion," faith is a form of irrationality, what he terms a "virus of
the mind." Philosopher Daniel Dennett compares belief in God to belief
in the Easter Bunny. Sam Harris, author of "The End of Faith" and now
"Letter to a Christian Nation," professes amazement that hundreds of
millions of people worldwide profess religious beliefs when there is no
rational evidence for any of those beliefs. Biologist E.O. Wilson says
there must be some evolutionary explanation for the universality and
pervasiveness of religious belief.
Actually, there is. The Rev. Ron Carlson, a popular author and
lecturer, sometimes presents his audience with two stories and asks
them whether it matters which one is true.
In the secular account, "You are the descendant of a tiny cell of
primordial protoplasm washed up on an empty beach 3 1/2 billion years
ago. You are a mere grab bag of atomic particles, a conglomeration of
genetic substance. You exist on a tiny planet in a minute solar system
in an empty corner of a meaningless universe. You came from nothing and
are going nowhere."
Not true. We came from nothing but enjoy a usually pleasent life and then
disapere like all
the other animals in the world. This is REAL life - not a dream world
created by our imagination.
In the Christian view, by contrast, "You are the special creation of a
good and all-powerful God. You are the climax of His creation. Not only
is your kind unique, but you are unique among your kind. Your Creator
loves you so much and so intensely desires your companionship and
affection that He gave the life of His only son that you might spend
eternity with him."
This is a creator that loves you and intensely desires you companionship?
There is NO OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE that any real gods actually exist.
They are all based on man's unreliable and selfish opinions.
Why did this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Floods,
Wars, Earth Quakes, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and
serious body malfunctions? There are 12,000 known diseases that affect and
punish mankind indiscriminately. Why does he permit millions of both young
and old to starve to death or die of miserable diseases? Why punish millions
of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this horrible way?
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent children"
to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed
brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born idiots and
others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth and others
pauper poor? Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate into a
miserable and devastating old age regardless of their religious affiliation?
God supposedly created the world like it is to punish man for Adam and Eve's
'original sin'. Why does he also punish supposedly innocent animals with
thousands of diseases, birth defects, starvation and to be eaten alive by
other animals?
Now imagine two groups of people -- let's call them the Secular Tribe
and the Religious Tribe -- who subscribe to one of these two views.
Which of the two is more likely to survive, prosper and multiply? The
religious tribe is made up of people who have an animating sense of
purpose. The secular tribe is made up of people who are not sure why
they exist at all. The religious tribe is composed of individuals who
view their every thought and action as consequential. The secular tribe
is made up of matter that cannot explain why it is able to think at
all.
Your creating your own World to support your beliefs.
Should evolutionists like Dennett, Dawkins, Harris and Wilson be
surprised, then, to see that religious tribes are flourishing around
the world? Across the globe, religious faith is thriving and religious
people are having more children. By contrast, atheist conventions only
draw a handful of embittered souls, and the atheist lifestyle seems to
produce listless tribes that cannot even reproduce themselves.
Atheist number around 500 million world wide. This is NOT a handful and they
are not imbittered except in your warped mind.
Russia is one of the most atheist countries in the world, and there
abortions outnumber live births 2 to 1. Russia's birth rate has fallen
so low that the nation is now losing 700,000 people a year. Japan,
perhaps the most secular country in Asia, is also on a kind of
population diet: its 130 million people are expected to drop to around
100 million in the next few decades. And then there is Europe. The most
secular continent on the globe is decadent in the literal sense that
its population is rapidly shrinking. Lacking the strong Christian
identity that produced its greatness, atheist Europe seems to be a
civilization on its way out. We have met Nietzsche's "last man" and his
name is Sven.
The trend is for populations to decline inversely as their prosperity and
education increases.
The United States population continues to grow because of legal and illegal
immigration
and the high birth rates of poorly educated immigrants.
Traditionally, scholars have tried to give an economic explanation for
these trends. The general idea is that population was a function of
affluence. Sociologists noted that as people and countries became
richer, they had fewer children. Presumably, primitive societies needed
children to help in the fields, and more-prosperous societies no longer
did. From this perspective, religion was explained as a phenomenon of
poverty, insecurity and fear, and many pundits predicted that with the
spread of modernity and prosperity, religion would fade away.
The economic explanation is now being questioned. It was never all that
plausible anyway. Undoubtedly, poor people are more economically
dependent on their children, but on the other hand, rich people can
afford more children. Wealthy people in America today tend to have one
child or none, but wealthy families in the past tended to have three or
more children.
That was before more effective birth control.
The real difference is not merely in the level of
income. The real difference is that in the past, children were valued
as gifts from God, and now they are viewed by many people as
instruments of self-gratification. The old principle was, "Be fruitful
and multiply." The new one is, "Have as many children as enhance your
lifestyle."
Your now admitting that religous belief is weakening.
The prophets of the disappearance of religion seem to have proven
themselves to be false prophets. Even though the world is becoming
richer, religion seems to be getting stronger.
A totally unsubstantiated 'opinion'. Earlier you supplied evidence of a
declining religious belief.
The United States is the
richest and most technologically advanced society in the world, and
religion shows no signs of disappearing on these shores.
Not any more. And its religious beleif volume is largely do to the large
influx of poor and poorly educated immigrants.
China and India are growing in affluence, and the Chinese government is not
exactly hospitable to religion, yet religious belief and practice
continue to be strong in both countries.
What is the cause and your evidence for this claim?
Europe's best chance to grow
in the future seems to be to import more religious Muslims. While Islam
spreads in Europe and elsewhere, Christianity is spreading even faster
in Africa, Asia and South America. Remarkably, Christianity will soon
become a non-Western religion with a minority presence among Europeans.
Christianity and other religions are growing mostly in the poorly educated
popualtions of the world.
My conclusion is that it is not religion but atheism that requires a
Darwinian explanation. It seems perplexing why nature would breed a
group of people who see no purpose to life or the universe, indeed
whose only moral drive seems to be sneering at their fellow human
beings who do have a sense of purpose.
In your distorted 'opinion'!
Here is where the biological
expertise of Dawkins and his friends could prove illuminating. Maybe
they can turn their Darwinian lens on themselves and help us understand
how atheism, like the human tailbone and the panda's thumb, somehow
survived as an evolutionary leftover of our primitive past.
You have it fully backwards. Religion has evolved from a past primitive
people who had no scientific
knowlege or explanation for the functions of the Universe like Planest, the
Son, moon aad Stars; Earth Quakes,
Volcanoes, Tsunamis, Tornados, diseases, starvation etc.
There is documented evidence that atheism and religious beliefs are
inversely proportionet to level of eduction.
Dinesh D'Souza's new book "The Enemy at Home: The Cultural Left and Its
Responsibility for 9/11" will be published in January by Doubleday. He
is the Rishwain Fellow at the Hoover Institution. Contact us at
insight@sfchronicle.com.
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| User: "Paul" |
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| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
27 Oct 2006 05:34:33 AM |
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God knows why faith is thriving
Dinesh D'Souza
Sunday, October 22, 2006
A group of leading atheists is puzzled by the continued existence and
vitality of religion.
They should know by now never to underestimate the dumbness of most
people.
Actually, there is. The Rev. Ron Carlson,...
In the secular account, "You are the descendant of a tiny cell of
primordial protoplasm washed up on an empty beach 3 1/2 billion years
ago. You are a mere grab bag of atomic particles, a conglomeration of
genetic substance. You exist on a tiny planet in a minute solar system
in an empty corner of a meaningless universe.
Then create some meaning for yourself.
You came from nothing and are going nowhere.
I'm going to watch a good film.
In the Christian view, by contrast, "You are the special creation of a
good and all-powerful God.
Can you give me his address? I fancy a chat.
He gave the life of His only son that you might spend
eternity with him.
I like the Easter Bunny story better. Is this God related to Ganesh
the Elephant God and Thor? Do you know where I can reach them?
I'm having a party next week and they would all make interesting
guests (I'll have to keep the vodka away from Thor, though... )
religious tribe is made up of people who have an animating sense of
purpose.
And Dawkings doesn't have that? He seems animated enough to me,
and gets plenty of purpose form his chosen pursuit of arguing religion
out of existence.
The secular tribe is made up of people who are not sure why
they exist at all.
I like a sense of mystery.
The religious tribe is composed of individuals who
view their every thought and action as consequential.
Even, "shall I make some tea or coffee?" I guess
a drink is a consequence, so fair enough.
atheist lifestyle seems to
produce listless tribes that cannot even reproduce themselves.
Read Bertrand Russell's autobiography - he was the exact oppositie of
listless! And the randy old goat produced plenty of kids. Are you
calling Dawkins, Asimov and Feynman listless! Then, sir, you are a
myopic idiot.
"Have as many children as enhance your
lifestyle."
Europeans have decided this number is 1-2. They are the most
cultured people on Earth. Eventually they will educate everyone
to embrace atheism. Then the world population will decline, global
warming will cease, and Europeans will eventually decide to up
the rate slightly to 2 and humanity will enter a golden age of
sustainable enlightenment.
Either that, or D'Souza's values will triumph and we've all had it.
Remarkably, Christianity will soon
become a non-Western religion with a minority presence among Europeans.
Why remarkably? With figures like Diderot, David Hume, Bertrand Russell
and Richard
Dawkins, it is hardly surprising that Europe is leading world thought
away from
religious obscurantism.
My conclusion is that it is not religion but atheism that requires a
Darwinian explanation. It seems perplexing why nature would breed a
group of people who see no purpose to life or the universe,...
Who are these people? The Straw Man Society?
...only moral drive seems to be sneering at their fellow human
beings who do have a sense of purpose.
It's difficult to avoid all sneering at idiocy, but Europeans are
cultured and
usually use gentle irony combined with calm, dedicated educational
approaches. See Richard Dawkins 'The God Delusion' for an example.
Dinesh D'Souza's ... Rishwain Fellow at the Hoover Institution.
He should stick to making vacuum cleaners...
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| User: "chazwin" |
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| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
29 Oct 2006 03:39:45 AM |
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God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying
This is a simple lie. In the UK the 4th most popular religion is "Jedi
Knight" according to the last national census.
This indicates, along with empty chruches, a serious deline in
religiosity and "faith".
Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/22/INGA9LRRPN1.DTL
God knows why faith is thriving
Dinesh D'Souza
Sunday, October 22, 2006
A group of leading atheists is puzzled by the continued existence and
vitality of religion.
As biologist Richard Dawkins puts it in his new book "The God
Delusion," faith is a form of irrationality, what he terms a "virus of
the mind." Philosopher Daniel Dennett compares belief in God to belief
in the Easter Bunny. Sam Harris, author of "The End of Faith" and now
"Letter to a Christian Nation," professes amazement that hundreds of
millions of people worldwide profess religious beliefs when there is no
rational evidence for any of those beliefs. Biologist E.O. Wilson says
there must be some evolutionary explanation for the universality and
pervasiveness of religious belief.
Actually, there is. The Rev. Ron Carlson, a popular author and
lecturer, sometimes presents his audience with two stories and asks
them whether it matters which one is true.
In the secular account, "You are the descendant of a tiny cell of
primordial protoplasm washed up on an empty beach 3 1/2 billion years
ago. You are a mere grab bag of atomic particles, a conglomeration of
genetic substance. You exist on a tiny planet in a minute solar system
in an empty corner of a meaningless universe. You came from nothing and
are going nowhere."
In the Christian view, by contrast, "You are the special creation of a
good and all-powerful God. You are the climax of His creation. Not only
is your kind unique, but you are unique among your kind. Your Creator
loves you so much and so intensely desires your companionship and
affection that He gave the life of His only son that you might spend
eternity with him."
Now imagine two groups of people -- let's call them the Secular Tribe
and the Religious Tribe -- who subscribe to one of these two views.
Which of the two is more likely to survive, prosper and multiply? The
religious tribe is made up of people who have an animating sense of
purpose. The secular tribe is made up of people who are not sure why
they exist at all. The religious tribe is composed of individuals who
view their every thought and action as consequential. The secular tribe
is made up of matter that cannot explain why it is able to think at
all.
Should evolutionists like Dennett, Dawkins, Harris and Wilson be
surprised, then, to see that religious tribes are flourishing around
the world? Across the globe, religious faith is thriving and religious
people are having more children. By contrast, atheist conventions only
draw a handful of embittered souls, and the atheist lifestyle seems to
produce listless tribes that cannot even reproduce themselves.
Russia is one of the most atheist countries in the world, and there
abortions outnumber live births 2 to 1. Russia's birth rate has fallen
so low that the nation is now losing 700,000 people a year. Japan,
perhaps the most secular country in Asia, is also on a kind of
population diet: its 130 million people are expected to drop to around
100 million in the next few decades. And then there is Europe. The most
secular continent on the globe is decadent in the literal sense that
its population is rapidly shrinking. Lacking the strong Christian
identity that produced its greatness, atheist Europe seems to be a
civilization on its way out. We have met Nietzsche's "last man" and his
name is Sven.
Traditionally, scholars have tried to give an economic explanation for
these trends. The general idea is that population was a function of
affluence. Sociologists noted that as people and countries became
richer, they had fewer children. Presumably, primitive societies needed
children to help in the fields, and more-prosperous societies no longer
did. From this perspective, religion was explained as a phenomenon of
poverty, insecurity and fear, and many pundits predicted that with the
spread of modernity and prosperity, religion would fade away.
The economic explanation is now being questioned. It was never all that
plausible anyway. Undoubtedly, poor people are more economically
dependent on their children, but on the other hand, rich people can
afford more children. Wealthy people in America today tend to have one
child or none, but wealthy families in the past tended to have three or
more children. The real difference is not merely in the level of
income. The real difference is that in the past, children were valued
as gifts from God, and now they are viewed by many people as
instruments of self-gratification. The old principle was, "Be fruitful
and multiply." The new one is, "Have as many children as enhance your
lifestyle."
The prophets of the disappearance of religion seem to have proven
themselves to be false prophets. Even though the world is becoming
richer, religion seems to be getting stronger. The United States is the
richest and most technologically advanced society in the world, and
religion shows no signs of disappearing on these shores. China and
India are growing in affluence, and the Chinese government is not
exactly hospitable to religion, yet religious belief and practice
continue to be strong in both countries. Europe's best chance to grow
in the future seems to be to import more religious Muslims. While Islam
spreads in Europe and elsewhere, Christianity is spreading even faster
in Africa, Asia and South America. Remarkably, Christianity will soon
become a non-Western religion with a minority presence among Europeans.
My conclusion is that it is not religion but atheism that requires a
Darwinian explanation. It seems perplexing why nature would breed a
group of people who see no purpose to life or the universe, indeed
whose only moral drive seems to be sneering at their fellow human
beings who do have a sense of purpose. Here is where the biological
expertise of Dawkins and his friends could prove illuminating. Maybe
they can turn their Darwinian lens on themselves and help us understand
how atheism, like the human tailbone and the panda's thumb, somehow
survived as an evolutionary leftover of our primitive past.
Dinesh D'Souza's new book "The Enemy at Home: The Cultural Left and Its
Responsibility for 9/11" will be published in January by Doubleday. He
is the Rishwain Fellow at the Hoover Institution. Contact us at
insight@sfchronicle.com.
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
26 Oct 2006 04:22:08 PM |
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In article <1161897045.910746.57540@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> "Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@myway.com> writes:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/22/INGA9LRRPN1.DTL
{...}
Should evolutionists like Dennett, Dawkins, Harris and Wilson be
surprised, then, to see that religious tribes are flourishing around
the world? Across the globe, religious faith is thriving and religious
people are having more children. By contrast, atheist conventions only
draw a handful of embittered souls, and the atheist lifestyle seems to
produce listless tribes that cannot even reproduce themselves.
{...}
The economic explanation is now being questioned. It was never all that
plausible anyway. Undoubtedly, poor people are more economically
dependent on their children, but on the other hand, rich people can
afford more children. Wealthy people in America today tend to have one
child or none, but wealthy families in the past tended to have three or
more children. The real difference is not merely in the level of
income. The real difference is that in the past, children were valued
as gifts from God, and now they are viewed by many people as
instruments of self-gratification. The old principle was, "Be fruitful
and multiply." The new one is, "Have as many children as enhance your
lifestyle."
The obvious conclusion to be drawn here is that bunnies are
highly religious, while elepants are bitter without purpose.
-- cary
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| User: "655321" |
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| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
26 Oct 2006 09:49:11 PM |
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In article <1161897045.910746.57540@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@myway.com> wrote:
God knows why faith is thriving
Dinesh D'Souza
Sunday, October 22, 2006
Boy, D'Souza *continues* to trick people into thinking he's an
intellectual powerhouse. That he's done so to Strumpet is no mystery.
I can only believe that the Chronicle publishes him 'cause it helps the
circulation, not because the guy has anything of value to contribute.
--
655321
"Heed the message served with every Republican banquet speech -- that the
private interest precedes the public interest, that money is good for rich
people, bad for poor people -- and who can say that the war in Iraq has proven
to be anything other than the transformation of a godforsaken desert into a
defense contractor's Garden of Eden?" -- Lewis Lapham
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
26 Oct 2006 05:27:26 PM |
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On 26 Oct 2006 14:10:45 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<soundoftrumpet@myway.com> wrote:
Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying
Because theists have more children than sane people.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
- H. L. Mencken
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
26 Oct 2006 10:02:52 PM |
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On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:27:26 -0400, Al Klein wrote:
On 26 Oct 2006 14:10:45 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<soundoftrumpet@myway.com> wrote:
Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying
Because theists have more children than sane people.
The only problem with his post is that faith isn't thriving and atheism
isn't dying.
But other than that...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"...otherwise, we're looking at the potential
of this kind of world:.... a world in which
oil reserves are controlled by radicals in order
to extract blackmail from the West..." [George Bush]
Wait... oil reserves?
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
26 Oct 2006 10:21:21 PM |
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Sound of Trumpet
(soundoftrumpet@myway.com) made the light shine upon us with this:
A group of leading atheists is puzzled by the continued existence and
vitality of religion.
Who wouldn't be? This is the 21st century. I'm amazed there are still
people alive today who think there is actually a city of gold, for
Christians only, floating somewhere in the sky, even though telescopes and
spacecraft have been unable to locate it. A red goat-man that lurks behind
every bush, waiting to tempt them. An old bearded man who floats in the
sky granting wishes, I mean COME ON! Grow the ***** up already.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Plonked by Kadaitcha Man
.
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| User: "Pastor Kutchie" |
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| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
26 Oct 2006 04:45:35 PM |
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Sound of Fuckwit wrote:<snip>
Imagine an army of straw men marching over the hill.
Now, pass the petrol can and the matches.
.
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| User: "Kurt Nicklas" |
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| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
26 Oct 2006 05:19:33 PM |
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Pastor Kutchie wrote:
Sound of Fuckwit wrote:<snip>
Imagine an army of straw men marching over the hill.
Now, pass the petrol can and the matches.
Careful with those...you'll incinerate most of alt.atheismdom
.
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
26 Oct 2006 10:25:29 PM |
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Kurt Nicklas
(nicklask@bellsouth.net) made the light shine upon us with this:
Pastor Kutchie wrote:
Sound of Fuckwit wrote:<snip>
Imagine an army of straw men marching over the hill.
Now, pass the petrol can and the matches.
Careful with those...you'll incinerate most of alt.atheismdom
Not me. I just got back from the mall with a new supply of asbestos
underwear. I know, it's illegal. But so is methamphetamine.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Plonked by Kadaitcha Man
.
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| User: "Chris Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
26 Oct 2006 04:51:57 PM |
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Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/22/INGA9LRRPN1.DTL
God knows why faith is thriving
Dinesh D'Souza
Sunday, October 22, 2006
A group of leading atheists is puzzled by the continued existence and
vitality of religion.
As biologist Richard Dawkins puts it in his new book "The God
Delusion," faith is a form of irrationality, what he terms a "virus of
the mind." Philosopher Daniel Dennett compares belief in God to belief
in the Easter Bunny. Sam Harris, author of "The End of Faith" and now
"Letter to a Christian Nation," professes amazement that hundreds of
millions of people worldwide profess religious beliefs when there is no
rational evidence for any of those beliefs. Biologist E.O. Wilson says
there must be some evolutionary explanation for the universality and
pervasiveness of religious belief.
Actually, there is. The Rev. Ron Carlson, a popular author and
lecturer, sometimes presents his audience with two stories and asks
them whether it matters which one is true.
In the secular account, "You are the descendant of a tiny cell of
primordial protoplasm washed up on an empty beach 3 1/2 billion years
ago. You are a mere grab bag of atomic particles, a conglomeration of
genetic substance. You exist on a tiny planet in a minute solar system
in an empty corner of a meaningless universe. You came from nothing and
are going nowhere."
In the Christian view, by contrast, "You are the special creation of a
good and all-powerful God. You are the climax of His creation. Not only
is your kind unique, but you are unique among your kind. Your Creator
loves you so much and so intensely desires your companionship and
affection that He gave the life of His only son that you might spend
eternity with him."
Now imagine two groups of people -- let's call them the Secular Tribe
and the Religious Tribe -- who subscribe to one of these two views.
Which of the two is more likely to survive, prosper and multiply? The
religious tribe is made up of people who have an animating sense of
purpose. The secular tribe is made up of people who are not sure why
they exist at all. The religious tribe is composed of individuals who
view their every thought and action as consequential. The secular tribe
is made up of matter that cannot explain why it is able to think at
all.
Should evolutionists like Dennett, Dawkins, Harris and Wilson be
surprised, then, to see that religious tribes are flourishing around
the world? Across the globe, religious faith is thriving and religious
people are having more children. By contrast, atheist conventions only
draw a handful of embittered souls, and the atheist lifestyle seems to
produce listless tribes that cannot even reproduce themselves.
Russia is one of the most atheist countries in the world, and there
abortions outnumber live births 2 to 1. Russia's birth rate has fallen
so low that the nation is now losing 700,000 people a year. Japan,
perhaps the most secular country in Asia, is also on a kind of
population diet: its 130 million people are expected to drop to around
100 million in the next few decades. And then there is Europe. The most
secular continent on the globe is decadent in the literal sense that
its population is rapidly shrinking. Lacking the strong Christian
identity that produced its greatness, atheist Europe seems to be a
civilization on its way out. We have met Nietzsche's "last man" and his
name is Sven.
Traditionally, scholars have tried to give an economic explanation for
these trends. The general idea is that population was a function of
affluence. Sociologists noted that as people and countries became
richer, they had fewer children. Presumably, primitive societies needed
children to help in the fields, and more-prosperous societies no longer
did. From this perspective, religion was explained as a phenomenon of
poverty, insecurity and fear, and many pundits predicted that with the
spread of modernity and prosperity, religion would fade away.
The economic explanation is now being questioned. It was never all that
plausible anyway. Undoubtedly, poor people are more economically
dependent on their children, but on the other hand, rich people can
afford more children. Wealthy people in America today tend to have one
child or none, but wealthy families in the past tended to have three or
more children. The real difference is not merely in the level of
income. The real difference is that in the past, children were valued
as gifts from God, and now they are viewed by many people as
instruments of self-gratification. The old principle was, "Be fruitful
and multiply." The new one is, "Have as many children as enhance your
lifestyle."
The prophets of the disappearance of religion seem to have proven
themselves to be false prophets. Even though the world is becoming
richer, religion seems to be getting stronger. The United States is the
richest and most technologically advanced society in the world, and
religion shows no signs of disappearing on these shores. China and
India are growing in affluence, and the Chinese government is not
exactly hospitable to religion, yet religious belief and practice
continue to be strong in both countries. Europe's best chance to grow
in the future seems to be to import more religious Muslims. While Islam
spreads in Europe and elsewhere, Christianity is spreading even faster
in Africa, Asia and South America. Remarkably, Christianity will soon
become a non-Western religion with a minority presence among Europeans.
My conclusion is that it is not religion but atheism that requires a
Darwinian explanation. It seems perplexing why nature would breed a
group of people who see no purpose to life or the universe, indeed
whose only moral drive seems to be sneering at their fellow human
beings who do have a sense of purpose. Here is where the biological
expertise of Dawkins and his friends could prove illuminating. Maybe
they can turn their Darwinian lens on themselves and help us understand
how atheism, like the human tailbone and the panda's thumb, somehow
survived as an evolutionary leftover of our primitive past.
Is this bizarre twisting of logic supposed to be an argument for
theism? All he can muster, though he tries to hide it in many words,
are ad hominems against the "bitter atheist" stereotype and the
"religion is beneficial!"
I certainly agree that there are aspects of religion that are highly
beneficial, but these effects clearly do not depend on their truth. The
same benefits that can be found in Christianity can be derived through
any other religion, plenty of which are mutually exclusive with
Christianity. If this is the case, why not create a religion that
induces the same effects as current religions, but does not foist
absolute, irrational, beliefs on its adherents? Because it is assuredly
these beliefs that are causing the current crisis with Islam, and most
(if not all) of the absurd tragedies of Christian history can be
attributed to such beliefs, as well.
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
26 Oct 2006 07:31:20 PM |
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|
On 26 Oct 2006 14:51:57 -0700, "Chris Johnson" <effigies@gmail.com>
wrote:
I certainly agree that there are aspects of religion that are highly
beneficial, but these effects clearly do not depend on their truth. The
same benefits that can be found in Christianity can be derived through
any other religion, plenty of which are mutually exclusive with
Christianity. If this is the case, why not create a religion that
induces the same effects as current religions, but does not foist
absolute, irrational, beliefs on its adherents?
Because it would be difficult to exploit a religion like that, so what
good would it be to the people on top?
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Atheism is the world of reality, it is reason, it is freedom. Atheism is
human concern, and intellectual honesty to a degree that the religious mind
cannot begin to understand. And yet it is more than this. Atheism is not an
old religion, it is not a new and coming religion, in fact it is not, and
never has been, a religion at all. The definition of Atheism is magnificent in
its simplicity: Atheism is merely the bed-rock of sanity in a world of
madness."
[Atheism: An Affirmative View, by Emmett F. Fields]
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
.
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| User: "Sir Frederick" |
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| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
26 Oct 2006 05:02:51 PM |
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|
On 26 Oct 2006 14:51:57 -0700, "Chris Johnson" <effigies@gmail.com> wrote:
Is this bizarre twisting of logic supposed to be an argument for
theism? All he can muster, though he tries to hide it in many words,
are ad hominems against the "bitter atheist" stereotype and the
"religion is beneficial!"
I certainly agree that there are aspects of religion that are highly
beneficial, but these effects clearly do not depend on their truth. The
same benefits that can be found in Christianity can be derived through
any other religion, plenty of which are mutually exclusive with
Christianity. If this is the case, why not create a religion that
induces the same effects as current religions, but does not foist
absolute, irrational, beliefs on its adherents? Because it is assuredly
these beliefs that are causing the current crisis with Islam, and most
(if not all) of the absurd tragedies of Christian history can be
attributed to such beliefs, as well.
Because all humans are through evolution in need
of magical "irrational" stories. You must take that into account
when you construct your non problematic religion.
.
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| User: "Chris Johnson" |
|
| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
26 Oct 2006 05:27:31 PM |
|
|
Sir Frederick wrote:
On 26 Oct 2006 14:51:57 -0700, "Chris Johnson" <effigies@gmail.com> wrote:
Is this bizarre twisting of logic supposed to be an argument for
theism? All he can muster, though he tries to hide it in many words,
are ad hominems against the "bitter atheist" stereotype and the
"religion is beneficial!"
I certainly agree that there are aspects of religion that are highly
beneficial, but these effects clearly do not depend on their truth. The
same benefits that can be found in Christianity can be derived through
any other religion, plenty of which are mutually exclusive with
Christianity. If this is the case, why not create a religion that
induces the same effects as current religions, but does not foist
absolute, irrational, beliefs on its adherents? Because it is assuredly
these beliefs that are causing the current crisis with Islam, and most
(if not all) of the absurd tragedies of Christian history can be
attributed to such beliefs, as well.
Because all humans are through evolution in need
of magical "irrational" stories.
On what basis do you claim humans need to believe magical stories?
You must take that into account
when you construct your non problematic religion.
.
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| User: "James A. Donald" |
|
| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
26 Oct 2006 08:28:12 PM |
|
|
"Chris Johnson"
On what basis do you claim humans need to believe
magical stories?
Obviously a lot of humans do need to believe magical
stories, and when one bunch of fairy tales declines,
others appear to fill the vacuum - thus for example as
christianity has faded, the earth has become reified as
a conscious being that suffers from our activities, and
will punish us unless we make the appropriate sacrifices
and perform the appropriate rituals.
--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.
http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
.
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| User: "brique" |
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| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
27 Oct 2006 11:22:36 AM |
|
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James A. Donald <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:70o2k25efjspslurfr5nf6uteln7ks9246@4ax.com...
"Chris Johnson"
On what basis do you claim humans need to believe
magical stories?
Obviously a lot of humans do need to believe magical
stories, and when one bunch of fairy tales declines,
others appear to fill the vacuum - thus for example as
christianity has faded, the earth has become reified as
a conscious being that suffers from our activities, and
will punish us unless we make the appropriate sacrifices
and perform the appropriate rituals.
Bit like that other sacred entity. the Free Market... which abhors being
tampered with and, if kept pure and unsullied, will magically resolve all
problems.... just build it and they will come.........
--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.
http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
.
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
|
| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
27 Oct 2006 07:09:16 PM |
|
|
James A. Donald wrote:
"Chris Johnson"
On what basis do you claim humans need to believe
magical stories?
Obviously a lot of humans do need to believe magical
stories, and when one bunch of fairy tales declines,
others appear to fill the vacuum - thus for example as
christianity has faded, the earth has become reified as
a conscious being that suffers from our activities, and
will punish us unless we make the appropriate sacrifices
and perform the appropriate rituals.
All humans, bar none, believe in 'magical stories' of one
kind or another.
Religion is reason putting a protective buffer between us
and unbearable raw reality.
.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
|
| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
27 Oct 2006 08:47:52 PM |
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Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
James A. Donald wrote:
"Chris Johnson"
On what basis do you claim humans need to believe
magical stories?
Obviously a lot of humans do need to believe magical
stories, and when one bunch of fairy tales declines,
others appear to fill the vacuum - thus for example as
christianity has faded, the earth has become reified as
a conscious being that suffers from our activities, and
will punish us unless we make the appropriate sacrifices
and perform the appropriate rituals.
All humans, bar none, believe in 'magical stories' of one
kind or another.
Religion is reason putting a protective buffer between us
and unbearable raw reality.
Well that removes me from the human race, not that I don't enjoy a magical
story which may not deal with magic or an "unmagical story" which does, but
I'd call The Librarian a monkey before I'd believe in them.
.
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
|
| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
28 Oct 2006 09:41:45 PM |
|
|
Mike Painter wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
James A. Donald wrote:
"Chris Johnson"
On what basis do you claim humans need to believe
magical stories?
Obviously a lot of humans do need to believe magical
stories, and when one bunch of fairy tales declines,
others appear to fill the vacuum - thus for example as
christianity has faded, the earth has become reified as
a conscious being that suffers from our activities, and
will punish us unless we make the appropriate sacrifices
and perform the appropriate rituals.
All humans, bar none, believe in 'magical stories' of one
kind or another.
Religion is reason putting a protective buffer between us
and unbearable raw reality.
Well that removes me from the human race, not that I don't enjoy a magical
story which may not deal with magic or an "unmagical story" which does, but
I'd call The Librarian a monkey before I'd believe in them.
In other words, the magic you have most faith in is that
which you conjure yourself. Though you object, you're
locked into being human. There's only one way out: you do
have the option of speeding up the process.
.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
28 Oct 2006 11:26:04 PM |
|
|
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Mike Painter wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
James A. Donald wrote:
"Chris Johnson"
On what basis do you claim humans need to believe
magical stories?
Obviously a lot of humans do need to believe magical
stories, and when one bunch of fairy tales declines,
others appear to fill the vacuum - thus for example as
christianity has faded, the earth has become reified as
a conscious being that suffers from our activities, and
will punish us unless we make the appropriate sacrifices
and perform the appropriate rituals.
All humans, bar none, believe in 'magical stories' of one
kind or another.
Religion is reason putting a protective buffer between us
and unbearable raw reality.
Well that removes me from the human race, not that I don't enjoy a
magical story which may not deal with magic or an "unmagical story"
which does, but I'd call The Librarian a monkey before I'd believe
in them.
In other words, the magic you have most faith in is that
which you conjure yourself. Though you object, you're
locked into being human. There's only one way out: you do
have the option of speeding up the process.
In my words, I do not believe in magic of any kind, none, nada, zip, zero.
Sorry the first comment was so confusing to you.
I suspect most did understand it, but then they read.
.
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
|
| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
29 Oct 2006 01:50:35 AM |
|
|
Mike Painter wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Mike Painter wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
James A. Donald wrote:
"Chris Johnson"
On what basis do you claim humans need to believe
magical stories?
Obviously a lot of humans do need to believe magical
stories, and when one bunch of fairy tales declines,
others appear to fill the vacuum - thus for example as
christianity has faded, the earth has become reified as
a conscious being that suffers from our activities, and
will punish us unless we make the appropriate sacrifices
and perform the appropriate rituals.
All humans, bar none, believe in 'magical stories' of one
kind or another.
Religion is reason putting a protective buffer between us
and unbearable raw reality.
Well that removes me from the human race, not that I don't enjoy a
magical story which may not deal with magic or an "unmagical story"
which does, but I'd call The Librarian a monkey before I'd believe
in them.
In other words, the magic you have most faith in is that
which you conjure yourself. Though you object, you're
locked into being human. There's only one way out: you do
have the option of speeding up the process.
In my words, I do not believe in magic of any kind, none, nada, zip, zero.
You don't have to convince me that you believe this self
conceived magical fairy tale.
.
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| User: "Sir Frederick" |
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| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
26 Oct 2006 06:13:33 PM |
|
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On 26 Oct 2006 15:27:31 -0700, "Chris Johnson" <effigies@gmail.com> wrote:
Sir Frederick wrote:
On 26 Oct 2006 14:51:57 -0700, "Chris Johnson" <effigies@gmail.com> wrote:
Is this bizarre twisting of logic supposed to be an argument for
theism? All he can muster, though he tries to hide it in many words,
are ad hominems against the "bitter atheist" stereotype and the
"religion is beneficial!"
I certainly agree that there are aspects of religion that are highly
beneficial, but these effects clearly do not depend on their truth. The
same benefits that can be found in Christianity can be derived through
any other religion, plenty of which are mutually exclusive with
Christianity. If this is the case, why not create a religion that
induces the same effects as current religions, but does not foist
absolute, irrational, beliefs on its adherents? Because it is assuredly
these beliefs that are causing the current crisis with Islam, and most
(if not all) of the absurd tragedies of Christian history can be
attributed to such beliefs, as well.
Because all humans are through evolution in need
of magical "irrational" stories.
On what basis do you claim humans need to believe magical stories?
Without any research, intuitively obvious examples includes such as qualia.
Two examples :
There is no "red" out there, its all a magical sense driven story on photon energy.
There is no "mind" in there, its all a magical folk story on brain function.
At higher functional levels we are chronically enthralled with most everything :
for example, magical mating stories, the magical efficacy of medical stories, etc.
You must take that into account
when you construct your non problematic religion.
.
|
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| User: "Tim" |
|
| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
27 Oct 2006 03:37:30 PM |
|
|
"Sir Frederick" <mmcneill@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message
news:bif2k2hcr3l1a9tjmpm6bidacn95raoate@4ax.com...
On 26 Oct 2006 15:27:31 -0700, "Chris Johnson" <effigies@gmail.com> wrote:
Sir Frederick wrote:
On 26 Oct 2006 14:51:57 -0700, "Chris Johnson" <effigies@gmail.com>
wrote:
Is this bizarre twisting of logic supposed to be an argument for
theism? All he can muster, though he tries to hide it in many words,
are ad hominems against the "bitter atheist" stereotype and the
"religion is beneficial!"
I certainly agree that there are aspects of religion that are highly
beneficial, but these effects clearly do not depend on their truth. The
same benefits that can be found in Christianity can be derived through
any other religion, plenty of which are mutually exclusive with
Christianity. If this is the case, why not create a religion that
induces the same effects as current religions, but does not foist
absolute, irrational, beliefs on its adherents? Because it is assuredly
these beliefs that are causing the current crisis with Islam, and most
(if not all) of the absurd tragedies of Christian history can be
attributed to such beliefs, as well.
Because all humans are through evolution in need
of magical "irrational" stories.
On what basis do you claim humans need to believe magical stories?
Without any research, intuitively obvious examples includes such as
qualia.
Two examples :
There is no "red" out there, its all a magical sense driven story on
photon energy.
There is no "mind" in there, its all a magical folk story on brain
function.
So how do you conclude there is brain function and not just brain?
At higher functional levels we are chronically enthralled with most
everything :
for example, magical mating stories, the magical efficacy of medical
stories, etc.
Functionioanl levels? More magic stories?
You must take that into account
when you construct your non problematic religion.
As must you, yet you don't, ergo same magic stories, same delusions, same
lack of any discernable external standard.
.
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| User: "Chris Johnson" |
|
| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
26 Oct 2006 06:44:28 PM |
|
|
Sir Frederick wrote:
On 26 Oct 2006 15:27:31 -0700, "Chris Johnson" <effigies@gmail.com> wrote:
Sir Frederick wrote:
On 26 Oct 2006 14:51:57 -0700, "Chris Johnson" <effigies@gmail.com> wrote:
Is this bizarre twisting of logic supposed to be an argument for
theism? All he can muster, though he tries to hide it in many words,
are ad hominems against the "bitter atheist" stereotype and the
"religion is beneficial!"
I certainly agree that there are aspects of religion that are highly
beneficial, but these effects clearly do not depend on their truth. The
same benefits that can be found in Christianity can be derived through
any other religion, plenty of which are mutually exclusive with
Christianity. If this is the case, why not create a religion that
induces the same effects as current religions, but does not foist
absolute, irrational, beliefs on its adherents? Because it is assuredly
these beliefs that are causing the current crisis with Islam, and most
(if not all) of the absurd tragedies of Christian history can be
attributed to such beliefs, as well.
Because all humans are through evolution in need
of magical "irrational" stories.
On what basis do you claim humans need to believe magical stories?
Without any research, intuitively obvious examples includes such as qualia.
Two examples :
There is no "red" out there, its all a magical sense driven story on photon energy.
There is no "mind" in there, its all a magical folk story on brain function.
At higher functional levels we are chronically enthralled with most everything :
for example, magical mating stories, the magical efficacy of medical stories, etc.
I see these more as indicative of a need to explain things *somehow*,
rather than a need to believe in magic. However, magic captures our
imaginations; combine that with things we know nothing about, and our
provisional explanations could quite easily become magical beliefs over
the years/generations.
You must take that into account
when you construct your non problematic religion.
.
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
|
| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
26 Oct 2006 04:55:55 PM |
|
|
Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/22/INGA9LRRPN1.DTL
God knows why faith is thriving
Dinesh D'Souza
Sunday, October 22, 2006
A group of leading atheists is puzzled by the continued existence and
vitality of religion.
As biologist Richard Dawkins puts it in his new book "The God
Delusion," faith is a form of irrationality, what he terms a "virus of
the mind." Philosopher Daniel Dennett compares belief in God to belief
in the Easter Bunny. Sam Harris, author of "The End of Faith" and now
"Letter to a Christian Nation," professes amazement that hundreds of
millions of people worldwide profess religious beliefs when there is no
rational evidence for any of those beliefs. Biologist E.O. Wilson says
there must be some evolutionary explanation for the universality and
pervasiveness of religious belief.
Actually, there is. The Rev. Ron Carlson, a popular author and
lecturer, sometimes presents his audience with two stories and asks
them whether it matters which one is true.
In the secular account, "You are the descendant of a tiny cell of
primordial protoplasm washed up on an empty beach 3 1/2 billion years
ago. You are a mere grab bag of atomic particles, a conglomeration of
genetic substance. You exist on a tiny planet in a minute solar system
in an empty corner of a meaningless universe. You came from nothing and
are going nowhere."
In the Christian view, by contrast, "You are the special creation of a
good and all-powerful God. You are the climax of His creation. Not only
is your kind unique, but you are unique among your kind. Your Creator
loves you so much and so intensely desires your companionship and
affection that He gave the life of His only son that you might spend
eternity with him."
Now imagine two groups of people -- let's call them the Secular Tribe
and the Religious Tribe -- who subscribe to one of these two views.
Which of the two is more likely to survive, prosper and multiply? The
religious tribe is made up of people who have an animating sense of
purpose. The secular tribe is made up of people who are not sure why
they exist at all. The religious tribe is composed of individuals who
view their every thought and action as consequential. The secular tribe
is made up of matter that cannot explain why it is able to think at
all.
The point of this previous section is that it is better to believe in a
religion because they think it will give them a better chance to
"survive, prosper, and multiply." Sounds Darwinian to me. No way around
it, is there?
Should evolutionists like Dennett, Dawkins, Harris and Wilson be
surprised, then, to see that religious tribes are flourishing around
the world?
I don't see why they would. Humans are social animals. Humans survive
better in groups. Not sure about the survival rates if humans were
divided purely along religious lines, though. I think religious groups
are thriving in large degree because they exist in secular countries.
If that weren't the case, there would be constant war, I would guess
Across the globe, religious faith is thriving and religious
people are having more children. By contrast, atheist conventions only
draw a handful of embittered souls, and the atheist lifestyle seems to
produce listless tribes that cannot even reproduce themselves.
That was an embittered statement.
Russia is one of the most atheist countries in the world, and there
abortions outnumber live births 2 to 1. Russia's birth rate has fallen
so low that the nation is now losing 700,000 people a year. Japan,
perhaps the most secular country in Asia, is also on a kind of
population diet: its 130 million people are expected to drop to around
100 million in the next few decades. And then there is Europe. The most
secular continent on the globe is decadent in the literal sense that
its population is rapidly shrinking. Lacking the strong Christian
identity that produced its greatness, atheist Europe seems to be a
civilization on its way out. We have met Nietzsche's "last man" and his
name is Sven.
In an overpopulated world these people are behaving responsibly, if
what you quote is true. But you're not exactly a reliable source.
Traditionally, scholars have tried to give an economic explanation for
these trends. The general idea is that population was a function of
affluence. Sociologists noted that as people and countries became
richer, they had fewer children. Presumably, primitive societies needed
children to help in the fields, and more-prosperous societies no longer
did. From this perspective, religion was explained as a phenomenon of
poverty, insecurity and fear, and many pundits predicted that with the
spread of modernity and prosperity, religion would fade away.
And it will, eventually. Modernity has a long ways to spread yet. It
hasn't reached you, for instance.
The economic explanation is now being questioned. It was never all that
plausible anyway. Undoubtedly, poor people are more economically
dependent on their children, but on the other hand, rich people can
afford more children. Wealthy people in America today tend to have one
child or none, but wealthy families in the past tended to have three or
more children. The real difference is not merely in the level of
income. The real difference is that in the past, children were valued
as gifts from God, and now they are viewed by many people as
instruments of self-gratification. The old principle was, "Be fruitful
and multiply." The new one is, "Have as many children as enhance your
lifestyle."
The prophets of the disappearance of religion seem to have proven
themselves to be false prophets. Even though the world is becoming
richer, religion seems to be getting stronger. The United States is the
richest and most technologically advanced society in the world, and
religion shows no signs of disappearing on these shores. China and
India are growing in affluence, and the Chinese government is not
exactly hospitable to religion, yet religious belief and practice
continue to be strong in both countries. Europe's best chance to grow
in the future seems to be to import more religious Muslims. While Islam
spreads in Europe and elsewhere, Christianity is spreading even faster
in Africa, Asia and South America. Remarkably, Christianity will soon
become a non-Western religion with a minority presence among Europeans.
My conclusion is that it is not religion but atheism that requires a
Darwinian explanation.
Biology requires a Darwinian explanation, not atheism. My conclusion is
that the author is talking out of his *****.
It seems perplexing why nature would breed a
group of people who see no purpose to life or the universe, indeed
whose only moral drive seems to be sneering at their fellow human
beings who do have a sense of purpose.
You think amoebas have a sense of purpose to life or the universe?
And no one is sneering at anyone because they have a sense of purpose.
Here is where the biological
expertise of Dawkins and his friends could prove illuminating. Maybe
they can turn their Darwinian lens on themselves and help us understand
how atheism, like the human tailbone and the panda's thumb, somehow
survived as an evolutionary leftover of our primitive past.
Atheism is just getting started, it's not an evolutionary leftover. You
idiots should really learn what words mean before you start trying to
impress people with them.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
26 Oct 2006 06:03:32 PM |
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Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/22/INGA9LRRPN1.DTL
God knows why faith is thriving
Sunday, October 22, 2006
A group of leading atheists is puzzled by the continued existence and
vitality of religion.
Chico - Paradise area Butte County, CA
Group 1990 2000 % change
Evangelical Protestants 19,185 19,616 +2.2
Mainline Prodestants 7,222 6,745 -7.1
Catholic 15,382 19,483 +26.7
Orthodox 0 200 +200.0
Other 7,880 7,993 +2.0
Unclaimed not asked 147,520
Unclaimed, as opposed to "other" is more than 72% of the population in a
area known for it's myriad churches.
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| User: "Ash" |
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| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
27 Oct 2006 01:10:54 PM |
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Sound of Trumpet wrote:
snip
Actually, there is. The Rev. Ron Carlson, a popular author and
lecturer, sometimes presents his audience with two stories and asks
them whether it matters which one is true.
In the secular account, "You are the descendant of a tiny cell of
primordial protoplasm washed up on an empty beach 3 1/2 billion years
ago. You are a mere grab bag of atomic particles, a conglomeration of
genetic substance. You exist on a tiny planet in a minute solar system
in an empty corner of a meaningless universe. You came from nothing and
are going nowhere."
You are the result of millions of generational of organisms, you can
find meaning in life as you choose
In the Christian view, by contrast, "You are the special creation of a
good and all-powerful God. You are the climax of His creation. Not only
is your kind unique, but you are unique among your kind. Your Creator
loves you so much and so intensely desires your companionship and
affection that He gave the life of His only son that you might spend
eternity with him."
You are merely the plaything of a capricious omnipotent being who made
you for no reason other than to stroke his ego. If you don't do that, he
will destroy you.
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| User: "Freddy X" |
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| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
29 Oct 2006 02:31:48 AM |
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X-No-Archive: yes
Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/22/INGA9LRRPN1.DTL
God knows why faith is thriving
Dinesh D'Souza
Sunday, October 22, 2006
Now imagine two groups of people -- let's call them the Secular Tribe
and the Religious Tribe -- who subscribe to one of these two views.
Which of the two is more likely to survive, prosper and multiply? The
religious tribe is made up of people who have an animating sense of
purpose. The secular tribe is made up of people who are not sure why
they exist at all. The religious tribe is composed of individuals who
view their every thought and action as consequential. The secular tribe
is made up of matter that cannot explain why it is able to think at
all.
A very stupid article indeed. In no way do any of D'Souza's points
prove that there's a god. All he's done is prove that Christians are
unintelligent, ignorant, arrogant and intolerant.
Freddy X
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| User: "lawrey" |
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| Title: Re: God Knows Why Faith Is Thriving, While Atheism Is Dying |
28 Oct 2006 05:06:24 AM |
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You certainly like the sound of your own trumpet. I shall be brief and
to the point. I was taught as all children were taught in my day of a
loving benevolent deity who over-saw all my deeds and watched over me
night and day. Jesus was taught very much in the same way that god was
the loving father of all creation and he in turn taught love and
respect for all humanity; only at the very end of his life did he come
to realise he had been duped like the rest of believers when the last
words he uttered were "E'li,E'li,la'ma sa-bach-tha'ni?" Well may he
have asked the question since there was never going to be a god to save
him! I became to question some aspects of the faith that was instilled
in me when I had to join the national service and learn to kill my
fellow children of god. The answers to my questions were always in the
vain---god moves in mysterious ways and we mustn't question but have
faith! I decided for myself to study and learn and after mainy years of
studying our ancient history discovered that man invented god. Go to;
"The Philosophy of One on the Many." at www.lawrenceeleyot.co.uk where
that history is revealed with all it's horrible implications. I am glad
to be living in the real world and facing up to the fact that the god
you speak so glowingly of, must be the most evil being man ever
invented; that could allow such atrocities to be wrought on his
creation and permit daily acts of terror upon innocent men, women and
children, and you are proud to call him your god? ALL RELIGIONS are
built on that false premise.....A god.... there never was such a thing
.....save in the minds of men! With the greatest respect.
Lawrey.
Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/22/INGA9LRRPN1.DTL
God knows why faith is thriving
Dinesh D'Souza
Sunday, October 22, 2006
A group of leading atheists is puzzled by the continued existence and
vitality of religion.
As biologist Richard Dawkins puts it in his new book "The God
Delusion," faith is a form of irrationality, what he terms a "virus of
the mind." Philosopher Daniel Dennett compares belief in God to belief
in the Easter Bunny. Sam Harris, author of "The End of Faith" and now
"Letter to a Christian Nation," professes amazement that hundreds of
millions of people worldwide profess religious beliefs when there is no
rational evidence for any of those beliefs. Biologist E.O. Wilson says
there must be some evolutionary explanation for the universality and
pervasiveness of religious belief.
Actually, there is. The Rev. Ron Carlson, a popular author and
lecturer, sometimes presents his audience with two stories and asks
them whether it matters which one is true.
In the secular account, "You are the descendant of a tiny cell of
primordial protoplasm washed up on an empty beach 3 1/2 billion years
ago. You are a mere grab bag of atomic particles, a conglomeration of
genetic substance. You exist on a tiny planet in a minute solar system
in an empty corner of a meaningless universe. You came from nothing and
are going nowhere."
In the Christian view, by contrast, "You are the special creation of a
good and all-powerful God. You are the climax of His creation. Not only
is your kind unique, but you are unique among your kind. Your Creator
loves you so much and so intensely desires your companionship and
affection that He gave the life of His only son that you might spend
eternity with him."
Now imagine two groups of people -- let's call them the Secular Tribe
and the Religious Tribe -- who subscribe to one of these two views.
Which of the two is more likely to survive, prosper and multiply? The
religious tribe is made up of people who have an animating sense of
purpose. The secular tribe is made up of people who are not sure why
they exist at all. The religious tribe is composed of individuals who
view their every thought and action as consequential. The secular tribe
is made up of matter that cannot explain why it is able to think at
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