| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
24 Jul 2005 05:53:15 AM |
| Object: |
God off money |
God off money
http://www.godoffmoney.com/
We support removing religious phrases from our currency.
Because it is GOOD for ALL Americans!
WAYS TO GET INVOLVED!
* Purchase a stamp with the words "Keep Church and State Separate -
www.godoffmoney.com" and stamp all your currency
* Use a marker to line-out the words "In God We Trust" on all currency,
then write "www.godoffmoney.com" (is this OK?)
* Contact your newspaper and government representatives and tell them
you don't want religion on money.(Use our letter!)
* Put a link to this site on your own web-site
* Urge your friends to get involved too
* Enter all your bills in www.wheresgeorge.com so you can track them
* Support this site and www.au.org
http://www.godoffmoney.com/
*************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and the discussion group for the above site listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members]
For people in Hampton Roads you are also invited to join
NORFOLK/VA. B. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MEETUP GROUP
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/
Virginia Chapter Americans United for Separation of Church and State
http://au-va.org/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."
Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.
This site is a member of the following web rings:
Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring
The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring
American History WebRing--&--The History Ring
Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring
Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
****************************************************************
.
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|
| User: "kathryn" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 08:01:58 AM |
|
|
<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:oos6e1htcb70ecpq4f5erj57vqsj3fjga1@4ax.com...
God off money
http://www.godoffmoney.com/
We support removing religious phrases from our currency.
Because it is GOOD for ALL Americans!
WAYS TO GET INVOLVED!
* Purchase a stamp with the words "Keep Church and State Separate -
www.godoffmoney.com" and stamp all your currency
* Use a marker to line-out the words "In God We Trust" on all currency,
then write "www.godoffmoney.com" (is this OK?)
* Contact your newspaper and government representatives and tell them
you don't want religion on money.(Use our letter!)
* Put a link to this site on your own web-site
* Urge your friends to get involved too
* Enter all your bills in www.wheresgeorge.com so you can track them
* Support this site and www.au.org
http://www.godoffmoney.com/
is it legal to deliberately deface money?
I know it's illegal to destroy it but Im not sure about defacing
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 10:44:09 AM |
|
|
"kathryn" <nospam@here.com> wrote:
:|is it legal to deliberately deface money?
:|I know it's illegal to destroy it but Im not sure about defacing
Read this post
Spending Godless Money
By Mitchell Kahle
GODLESS MONEY
Use a red pen or stamp to "de-God" all of your paper money. It's fun.
It's easy.
http://www.lava.net/%7Ehcssc/godlessmoney.html
.
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| User: "kathryn" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 12:11:54 PM |
|
|
<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:6od7e11q2q2jjg87r5guhq54cap0nr3e6l@4ax.com...
"kathryn" <nospam@here.com> wrote:
:|is it legal to deliberately deface money?
:|I know it's illegal to destroy it but Im not sure about defacing
Read this post
Spending Godless Money
By Mitchell Kahle
GODLESS MONEY
Use a red pen or stamp to "de-God" all of your paper money. It's fun.
It's easy.
http://www.lava.net/%7Ehcssc/godlessmoney.html
ahhh thanks!
.
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| User: "Ben Goren" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 02:08:50 PM |
|
|
kathryn wrote:
buckeye-ELO@nospam.netwrote:
kathryn wrote:
is it legal to deliberately deface money? I know it's illegal
to destroy it but Im not sure about defacing
http://www.lava.net/%7Ehcssc/godlessmoney.html
ahhh thanks!
Be /very/ careful when getting legal advice from the 'Net,
/especially/ from non-lawyers pushing an agenda.
Now, I, a decided non-lawyer, happen to like the idea and I think
the arguments for its legality are sound. I'll probably start
de-godding my money.
However, I'm also planning on doing this in the full realization
that it could get me in trouble. Just because something's legal
doesn't mean a cop won't arrest you for doing it, that a
prosecutor won't try you for it, a judge and jury won't convict
you of it, and a jailer won't toss you in the same cell as a
sex-starved rapist for doing it.
A lawyer could tell you how likely any of that is--though, to be
certain, without any kind of guarantee.
Remember that we're living in a very religious society, and that
the same True Believers who managed to put their god on our
money are still running the show. Crossing out God /is/ a
challenge to authority, and the primitive-minded will see it as
sacrilege, desecration, and even an act of violence. Irrationally
so, to be sure, but...well...we /are/ talking about people who
honestly, truly believe an 1800-year-old fairy tale about a
2000-year-old-man who walked on water, came back from the dead,
and is going to come back from the living dead any day now....
Cheers,
b&
--
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
All but God can prove this sentence true.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
26 Jul 2005 05:46:32 AM |
|
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Ben Goren <ben@trumpetpower.com> wrote:
:|kathryn wrote:
:|
:| > buckeye-ELO@nospam.netwrote:
:| >> kathryn wrote:
:| >>
:| >>> is it legal to deliberately deface money? I know it's illegal
:| >>> to destroy it but Im not sure about defacing
:| >>
:| >> http://www.lava.net/%7Ehcssc/godlessmoney.html
:| >
:| > ahhh thanks!
:|
:|Be /very/ careful when getting legal advice from the 'Net,
:|/especially/ from non-lawyers pushing an agenda.
:|
:|Now, I, a decided non-lawyer, happen to like the idea and I think
:|the arguments for its legality are sound. I'll probably start
:|de-godding my money.
:|
:|However, I'm also planning on doing this in the full realization
:|that it could get me in trouble. Just because something's legal
:|doesn't mean a cop won't arrest you for doing it, that a
:|prosecutor won't try you for it, a judge and jury won't convict
:|you of it, and a jailer won't toss you in the same cell as a
:|sex-starved rapist for doing it.
Just a tad bit paranoid, perhaps?
First of all if you want to do it do it at home. Unless you have a seizure
while doing it and while jerking and flopping around you smear red ink all
over your hand there is no way to link you to a small red line on the bill.
The operative word is intent.
I have stood in many stores and watched a cashier make a small mark
usually black on a bill. O am not exactly sure why they are doing that
but I have seen it done a number of times and no one to my knowledge has
been hauled off to jail
I have also had bills that had black marks usually a small line on them.
:|
:|A lawyer could tell you how likely any of that is--though, to be
:|certain, without any kind of guarantee.
Money passes through many hands. It was once said that just about every
20.00 bill in circulation had some traces of cocaine on it.
Unless you drew your little tiny rad line in front of people there is no
way in the world that anyone could establish that you were the one who put
that line there.
:|
:|Remember that we're living in a very religious society, and that
:|the same True Believers who managed to put their god on our
:|money are still running the show. Crossing out God /is/ a
:|challenge to authority, and the primitive-minded will see it as
:|sacrilege, desecration, and even an act of violence. Irrationally
:|so, to be sure, but...well...we /are/ talking about people who
:|honestly, truly believe an 1800-year-old fairy tale about a
:|2000-year-old-man who walked on water, came back from the dead,
:|and is going to come back from the living dead any day now....
:|
A tad bit paranoid. (grin)
.
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| User: "Gray Shockley" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
26 Jul 2005 05:28:29 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:46:32 -0500, wrote
(in article <525ce114fu87nhipr7rpo0hchuo7nvknan@4ax.com>):
I have stood in many stores and watched a cashier make a small mark
usually black on a bill. O am not exactly sure why they are doing that
but I have seen it done a number of times and no one to my knowledge has
been hauled off to jail
Checking for counterfeiting.
The new bills were designed with this in mind.
++ gray
.
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| User: "ARS" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
31 Jul 2005 11:37:02 PM |
|
|
Gray Shockley <grayshockley@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:46:32 -0500, wrote
(in article <525ce114fu87nhipr7rpo0hchuo7nvknan@4ax.com>):
I have stood in many stores and watched a cashier make a small mark
usually black on a bill. O am not exactly sure why they are doing that
but I have seen it done a number of times and no one to my knowledge has
been hauled off to jail
Checking for counterfeiting.
The new bills were designed with this in mind.
++ gray
Old bills were too. AFAIK, the pen contains an Iodine solution. Starch
added to make a counterfeit stiff enough turn the pen blue/black. Real
bills are actually a cloth w/o any starch needed.
ARS
.
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| User: "Gray Shockley" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 05:24:57 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:08:50 -0500, Ben Goren wrote
(in article <1122232271_261@spool6-east.superfeed.net>):
kathryn wrote:
buckeye-ELO@nospam.netwrote:
kathryn wrote:
is it legal to deliberately deface money? I know it's illegal
to destroy it but Im not sure about defacing
http://www.lava.net/%7Ehcssc/godlessmoney.html
ahhh thanks!
Be /very/ careful when getting legal advice from the 'Net,
/especially/ from non-lawyers pushing an agenda.
Now, I, a decided non-lawyer, happen to like the idea and I think
the arguments for its legality are sound. I'll probably start
de-godding my money.
However, I'm also planning on doing this in the full realization
that it could get me in trouble. Just because something's legal
doesn't mean a cop won't arrest you for doing it, that a
prosecutor won't try you for it, a judge and jury won't convict
you of it, and a jailer won't toss you in the same cell as a
sex-starved rapist for doing it.
A lawyer could tell you how likely any of that is--though, to be
certain, without any kind of guarantee.
Remember that we're living in a very religious society, and that
the same True Believers who managed to put their god on our
money
Well, let's take a look at these "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free
exercise thereof" dollar bills.
Hm,m,m - here's a one-dollar bill and - written on it - is "IN GOD
WE TRUST" right between the American War Eagle and the Freemason eye
above pyramid.
Then there's a $10 bill with "IN GOD WE TRUST" over a picture of the
U.S. Treasury.
So - it appears - that the American God is, basically, a god of
money, war and mysticism.
Surprise, surprise . . . . . .
++ gray
are still running the show. Crossing out God /is/ a
challenge to authority, and the primitive-minded will see it as
sacrilege, desecration, and even an act of violence. Irrationally
so, to be sure, but...well...we /are/ talking about people who
honestly, truly believe an 1800-year-old fairy tale about a
2000-year-old-man who walked on water, came back from the dead,
and is going to come back from the living dead any day now....
Cheers,
b&
.
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| User: "Midjis" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 09:13:48 AM |
|
|
"kathryn" <nospam@here.com> wrote:
is it legal to deliberately deface money?
I know it's illegal to destroy it but Im not sure about defacing
Can't speak for America, obviously, but although it used to be illegal in
Britain to deface coins (note sure about notes but I would assume the
Queen's image fell under the same laws), it's not any more. As long as the
note's genuine and in one piece it's pretty much passable.
.
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| User: "Gray Shockley" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 12:14:07 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:01:58 -0500, kathryn wrote
(in article <dc03g6$hbq$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>):
<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:oos6e1htcb70ecpq4f5erj57vqsj3fjga1@4ax.com...
God off money
http://www.godoffmoney.com/
We support removing religious phrases from our currency.
Because it is GOOD for ALL Americans!
WAYS TO GET INVOLVED!
* Purchase a stamp with the words "Keep Church and State Separate -
www.godoffmoney.com" and stamp all your currency
* Use a marker to line-out the words "In God We Trust" on all currency,
then write "www.godoffmoney.com" (is this OK?)
* Contact your newspaper and government representatives and tell them
you don't want religion on money.(Use our letter!)
* Put a link to this site on your own web-site
* Urge your friends to get involved too
* Enter all your bills in www.wheresgeorge.com so you can track them
* Support this site and www.au.org
http://www.godoffmoney.com/
is it legal to deliberately deface money?
I know it's illegal to destroy it but Im not sure about defacing
from Google at:
---------------------------------------
<http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=426715>
United States Code
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 17 - COINS AND CURRENCY
§ 333. Mutilation of national bank obligations
³Whoever mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or
unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank
bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national
banking association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve
System, with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other
evidence of debt unfit to be reissued, shall be fined under this
title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.²
---------------------------------------
So, apparently, "intent" is what matters.
" . . . with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other
evidence of debt unfit to be reissued, . . ."
---------------------------------------
The Anthropologist and I have been noticing words on FRNs carrying
either a short message or an advertisement.
My guess is that if it becomes widespread, it'll go illegal because,
actually, that sort of thing isn't really good for the linen
Plus, of course, if people start ruining clothes because someone
used a non-permanent ink, that'll irritate folks.
This might be something that would be interesting and/or amusing to
follow.
++ gray
.
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| User: "Magus" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 03:33:29 PM |
|
|
kathryn wrote:
<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
God off money
http://www.godoffmoney.com/
<whack>
is it legal to deliberately deface money?
I know it's illegal to destroy it but Im not sure about defacing
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+18USC333
Looks like [defacing] "...with intent to render...unfit to be
reissued..." is what could make it illegal.
United States Code
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 17 - COINS AND CURRENCY
§ 333. Mutilation of national bank obligations
“Whoever mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or
unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill,
draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking
association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve System,
with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence
of debt unfit to be reissued, shall be fined under this title or
imprisoned not more than six months, or both.”
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/17/sections/section_333.html
http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/search/display.html?terms=defaces&url=/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000333----000-.html
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=426715
.
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| User: "Frank Provasek" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 05:33:07 PM |
|
|
The "original intent" of the founders was NOT to have God mentioned on
money....
In 1776
http://www.coinfacts.com/colonial_coins/continental_dollars/1776_continental_dollar.htm
During George Washington's term
http://www.jaderarecoin.com/inventory/11-0016.jpg
And wasn't required during Lincoln's Term
http://www.coinfacts.com/double_eagles/liberty_no_motto_double_eagles/1862s_double_eagle.htm
Or the Wild West era
http://www.coinfacts.com/small_cents/indian_head_cents/1886_indian_head_cent.htm
Or during the Great Depression
http://www.northeastcoins.com/featuredcoins/1934.gif
Or World War II
http://www.rrcoins.net/images/stc357back.jpg
Only became required during the red scare in the mid 1950s.
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
25 Jul 2005 12:24:26 PM |
|
|
"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:
:|
:|
:|c-bee1 wrote:
:|> "fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote in message
:|> news:1122233676.665481.207860@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
:|>
:|> wrote:
:|> > God off money
:|> > http://www.godoffmoney.com/
:|> > We support removing religious phrases from our currency.
:|> > Because it is GOOD for ALL Americans!
:|> >
:|> > WAYS TO GET INVOLVED!
:|> > * Purchase a stamp with the words "Keep Church and State Separate -
:|> > www.godoffmoney.com" and stamp all your currency
:|> > * Use a marker to line-out the words "In God We Trust" on all
:|> currency,
:|> > then write "www.godoffmoney.com" (is this OK?)
:|> > * Contact your newspaper and government representatives and tell them
:|> > you don't want religion on money.(Use our letter!)
:|> > * Put a link to this site on your own web-site
:|> > * Urge your friends to get involved too
:|> > * Enter all your bills in www.wheresgeorge.com so you can track them
:|> > * Support this site and www.au.org
:|> > http://www.godoffmoney.com/
:|>
:|> We can replace "IN GOD WE TRUST" we with a reference to the 1st and
:|> 10th Amendments since these amendments delegate the power to address
:|> religion to the states. Try:
:|>
:|> http://www.renewamerica.us/readings/keyes_essay.htm
:|>
:|> You still pushing that ridiculous clown of a sad sick serial liar? lol
:|> You SERIOUSLY need to find a different spokesman.
:|
:|The issue is the message, not the messenger.
The message is right wing propaganda
This is far better
Alan Keyes / Alan Dershowitz
Does Organized Religion Hold Answers to the Problems of
the 21st Century?
Debate, September 27, 2000
Franklin & Marshall College
http://www.renewamerica.us/archives/speeches/pdf/00_09_27debate.pdf
****************************************************************************************
along with
Study Guide: Separation of Church and State - Indepth
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd0.htm
and
The Establishment Clause
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/estclause.htm
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
The Barton Chronicles
http://members.tripod.com/~can dst/bartchro.htm
***************************************************************
"A Christian Looks At the Religious Right"
Responding to David Barton
http://www.livingston.net/wilk yjr/link28.htm
*********************************************************
David Barton
"Who Is David Barton , And Why Is He Saying Such Awful Things About
Separation Of Church And State?"
As a "Christian" nation activist, David Barton, Vice Chair of the
Republican Party, was once considered so extreme he was not taken
seriously. Now he is listed by Time magazine as one of the nation's 25
most influential evangelicals.
He was also featured on the front page of The New York Times Week in
Review, February 27, 2005: Putting God Back Into American History.
http://www.theocracywatch.org/ separation_barton_times_feb27_ 05.htm
February 27, 2005
Putting God Back Into American History
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK
*************************************************************************************
**************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and the discussion group for the above site listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members]
For people in Hampton Roads you are also invited to join
NORFOLK/VA. B. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MEETUP GROUP
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/
Virginia Chapter Americans United for Separation of Church and State
http://au-va.org/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."
Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.
This site is a member of the following web rings:
Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring
The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring
American History WebRing--&--The History Ring
Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring
Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
****************************************************************
.
|
|
|
| User: "Gray Shockley" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
25 Jul 2005 04:07:10 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:24:26 -0500, wrote
(in article <s18ae1pt75ao79pk58cl80ojd0rb33uc9m@4ax.com>):
David Barton
"Who Is David Barton , And Why Is He Saying Such Awful Things About
Separation Of Church And State?"
As a "Christian" nation activist, David Barton, Vice Chair of the
Republican Party, was once considered so extreme he was not taken
seriously. Now he is listed by Time magazine as one of the nation's 25
most influential evangelicals.
He was also featured on the front page of The New York Times Week in
Review, February 27, 2005: Putting God Back Into American History.
http://www.theocracywatch.org/ separation_barton_times_feb27_ 05.htm
February 27, 2005
Putting God Back Into American History
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK
This one works (no spaces in it):
<http://www.theocracywatch.org/separation_barton_times_feb27_05.htm>
++ gray
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
25 Jul 2005 12:24:11 PM |
|
|
"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:
:|
:|buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:
:|> God off money
:|> http://www.godoffmoney.com/
:|> We support removing religious phrases from our currency.
:|> Because it is GOOD for ALL Americans!
:|>
:|> WAYS TO GET INVOLVED!
:|> * Purchase a stamp with the words "Keep Church and State Separate -
:|> www.godoffmoney.com" and stamp all your currency
:|> * Use a marker to line-out the words "In God We Trust" on all currency,
:|> then write "www.godoffmoney.com" (is this OK?)
:|> * Contact your newspaper and government representatives and tell them
:|> you don't want religion on money.(Use our letter!)
:|> * Put a link to this site on your own web-site
:|> * Urge your friends to get involved too
:|> * Enter all your bills in www.wheresgeorge.com so you can track them
:|> * Support this site and www.au.org
:|> http://www.godoffmoney.com/
:|
:|We can replace "IN GOD WE TRUST" we with a reference to the 1st and
:|10th Amendments since these amendments delegate the power to address
:|religion to the states. Try:
:|
:|http://www.renewamerica.us/readings/keyes_essay.htm
This is far better
Alan Keyes / Alan Dershowitz
Does Organized Religion Hold Answers to the Problems of
the 21st Century?
Debate, September 27, 2000
Franklin & Marshall College
http://www.renewamerica.us/archives/speeches/pdf/00_09_27debate.pdf
****************************************************************************************
along with
Study Guide: Separation of Church and State - Indepth
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd0.htm
and
The Establishment Clause
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/estclause.htm
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
The Barton Chronicles
http://members.tripod.com/~can dst/bartchro.htm
***************************************************************
"A Christian Looks At the Religious Right"
Responding to David Barton
http://www.livingston.net/wilk yjr/link28.htm
*********************************************************
David Barton
"Who Is David Barton , And Why Is He Saying Such Awful Things About
Separation Of Church And State?"
As a "Christian" nation activist, David Barton, Vice Chair of the
Republican Party, was once considered so extreme he was not taken
seriously. Now he is listed by Time magazine as one of the nation's 25
most influential evangelicals.
He was also featured on the front page of The New York Times Week in
Review, February 27, 2005: Putting God Back Into American History.
http://www.theocracywatch.org/ separation_barton_times_feb27_ 05.htm
February 27, 2005
Putting God Back Into American History
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK
*************************************************************************************
**************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and the discussion group for the above site listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members]
For people in Hampton Roads you are also invited to join
NORFOLK/VA. B. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MEETUP GROUP
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/
Virginia Chapter Americans United for Separation of Church and State
http://au-va.org/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."
Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.
This site is a member of the following web rings:
Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring
The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring
American History WebRing--&--The History Ring
Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring
Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
****************************************************************
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "fred" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 03:01:13 PM |
|
|
wrote:
God off money
http://www.godoffmoney.com/
We support removing religious phrases from our currency.
Because it is GOOD for ALL Americans!
WAYS TO GET INVOLVED!
* Purchase a stamp with the words "Keep Church and State Separate -
www.godoffmoney.com" and stamp all your currency
* Use a marker to line-out the words "In God We Trust" on all currenc=
y,
then write "www.godoffmoney.com" (is this OK?)
* Contact your newspaper and government representatives and tell them
you don't want religion on money.(Use our letter!)
* Put a link to this site on your own web-site
* Urge your friends to get involved too
* Enter all your bills in www.wheresgeorge.com so you can track them
* Support this site and www.au.org
http://www.godoffmoney.com/
We can replace "IN GOD WE TRUST" we with a reference to the 1st and
10th Amendments since these amendments delegate the power to address
religion to the states. Try:
http://www.renewamerica.us/readings/keyes_essay.htm
*************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and the discussion group for the above site listed below]
HRSepCnS =B7 Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members]
For people in Hampton Roads you are also invited to join
NORFOLK/VA. B. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MEETUP GROUP
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/
Virginia Chapter Americans United for Separation of Church and State
http://au-va.org/
***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why =
"a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisne=
r,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."
Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.
This site is a member of the following web rings:
Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring
The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring
American History WebRing--&--The History Ring
Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring
Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
=20
****************************************************************
.
|
|
|
| User: "Gray Shockley" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 05:56:01 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:01:13 -0500, fred wrote:
We can replace "IN GOD WE TRUST" we with a reference to the 1st and
10th Amendments since these amendments delegate the power to address
religion to the states.
The Constitution giveth and the Constitution taketh away.
Blessed be the name of the Constitution.
In god we trust
But we'd prefer the gold standard
If it's all the same to you
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "DanielSan" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 11:06:22 PM |
|
|
fred wrote:
buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:
God off money
http://www.godoffmoney.com/
We support removing religious phrases from our currency.
Because it is GOOD for ALL Americans!
WAYS TO GET INVOLVED!
* Purchase a stamp with the words "Keep Church and State Separate -
www.godoffmoney.com" and stamp all your currency
* Use a marker to line-out the words "In God We Trust" on all currency,
then write "www.godoffmoney.com" (is this OK?)
* Contact your newspaper and government representatives and tell them
you don't want religion on money.(Use our letter!)
* Put a link to this site on your own web-site
* Urge your friends to get involved too
* Enter all your bills in www.wheresgeorge.com so you can track them
* Support this site and www.au.org
http://www.godoffmoney.com/
We can replace "IN GOD WE TRUST" we with a reference to the 1st and
10th Amendments since these amendments delegate the power to address
religion to the states. Try:
http://www.renewamerica.us/readings/keyes_essay.htm
Or, just replace it with "E Pluribus Unum."
Do you have a problem with that motto?
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, *
* the non-existence of Zeus or Thor - but they *
* have few followers now." Arthur C. Clarke *
****************************************************
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Midjis" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 07:11:46 AM |
|
|
wrote:
God off money
http://www.godoffmoney.com/
We support removing religious phrases from our currency.
Because it is GOOD for ALL Americans!
That sounds about right. Obsess about the wording on currency that would
spend just as well with or without reference to God, but keep a
fundamentalist in the White House.
"Separation of Church and State", indeed...
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 08:00:17 AM |
|
|
Midjis <midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
:|buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:
:|
:|> God off money
:|> http://www.godoffmoney.com/
:|> We support removing religious phrases from our currency.
:|> Because it is GOOD for ALL Americans!
:|
:|That sounds about right. Obsess about the wording on currency that would
:|spend just as well with or without reference to God, but keep a
:|fundamentalist in the White House.
:|
:|"Separation of Church and State", indeed...
Yes, indeed, and what are you doing about it?
Why not come on over and join in the fight, or do you prefer to just
indeed?
*************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and the discussion group for the above site listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members]
For people in Hampton Roads you are also invited to join
NORFOLK/VA. B. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MEETUP GROUP
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/
Virginia Chapter Americans United for Separation of Church and State
http://au-va.org/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."
Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.
This site is a member of the following web rings:
Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring
The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring
American History WebRing--&--The History Ring
Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring
Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
****************************************************************
.
|
|
|
| User: "Midjis" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 09:12:36 AM |
|
|
wrote:
Yes, indeed, and what are you doing about it?
Me? I'm being British. So unless you want to change your laws to allow me
to vote in your country, I'm pretty much stuck with 'indeed'.
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
25 Jul 2005 08:35:31 AM |
|
|
Midjis <midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
:|buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:
:|
:|> Yes, indeed, and what are you doing about it?
:|
:|Me? I'm being British. So unless you want to change your laws to allow me
:|to vote in your country, I'm pretty much stuck with 'indeed'.
Come on over.
That should be a problem after all in Chicago the dead vote and a good
piece of advice here is vote and vote often on the same day in different
places
If a problem the USSC will appoint your man to the office
We have a Prez who might never have been legally elected to the office
either time 2000 or 2004
No problem getting your vote in the system.
hehehehe
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "nobody" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 09:38:34 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 06:53:15 -0400, wrote:
God off money
Who cares?
What practical purpose would removing the text serve? Who reads the
text "In God We Trust" on their money and becomes a theist? What loser
reads all the text on their money anyway?
I am an atheist and I don't give a damn about crosses on buildings or
text on money or fishes on cars. Live and let live. And if you really
have too much time and money (so to speak) in your hands to engage in
such petty business that would only serve to alienate theists, why not
spend it on more constructive endavours? I don't know, go establish an
atheist charity and feed the homeless, help the elderly, clean the
streets... etc. *That* would serve to further the image of atheism and
would make you feel good inside instead of bitter.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Agki" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 10:08:07 AM |
|
|
I am an atheist and I don't give a damn about crosses on buildings or
text on money or fishes on cars. Live and let live.
Live and let live is a great philosophy. It is such a huge tragedy
that the religious right will not allow us to do that. Every where I
turn, I run into people who want me to adopt their beliefs even though
they are poorly considered ones.
Arguments about separation of church and state abound and the problem
with the Constitution is that it is relatively ambiguous on the point.
There are arguments to be made, at least on a "strict constructionist"
reading of the text, that it is not forbidden for the state to
"support" one religion or another. Be that as it may, the only clear
resolution is a new amendment that clearly states the principle of
secular government and its non-participation in or support of religious
persuasions. An amendment could be phrased so that the separation is
absolute. Of course, it wouldn't have a chance and it probably didn't
when the original was written but it probably would have had a better
chance then than now.
For the confusion, I blame both the Framers for not putting it in and
the education system for failure to teach people how to think
critically about anything.
Agki
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 11:17:53 AM |
|
|
"Agki" <agkistrodon@mindspring.com> wrote:
:|>I am an atheist and I don't give a damn about crosses on buildings or
:|>text on money or fishes on cars. Live and let live.
:|
:|Live and let live is a great philosophy. It is such a huge tragedy
:|that the religious right will not allow us to do that. Every where I
:|turn, I run into people who want me to adopt their beliefs even though
:|they are poorly considered ones.
:|
:|Arguments about separation of church and state abound and the problem
:|with the Constitution is that it is relatively ambiguous on the point.
:|There are arguments to be made, at least on a "strict constructionist"
:|reading of the text, that it is not forbidden for the state to
:|"support" one religion or another.
I'd for one would love to see your historical documentation on that one.
:|Be that as it may, the only clear
:|resolution is a new amendment that clearly states the principle of
:|secular government and its non-participation in or support of religious
:|persuasions.
No new amendment is needed.
What is there is good enough.
You might consider the following:
Study Guide: Separation of Church and State - Indepth
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd0.htm
The Establishment Clause
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/estclause.htm
A Simple Test
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/simptest.htm
**************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and the discussion group for the above site listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members]
For people in Hampton Roads you are also invited to join
NORFOLK/VA. B. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MEETUP GROUP
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/
Virginia Chapter Americans United for Separation of Church and State
http://au-va.org/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."
Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.
This site is a member of the following web rings:
Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring
The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring
American History WebRing--&--The History Ring
Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring
Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
****************************************************************
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
26 Jul 2005 05:45:21 AM |
|
|
"Agki" <agkistrodon@mindspring.com> wrote:
:|>>:|Be that as it may, the only clear
:|>>:|resolution is a new amendment that clearly states the principle of
:|>>:|secular government and its non-participation in or support of religious
:|>>:|persuasions.
:|
:|>No new amendment is needed.
:|
:|>What is there is good enough.
:|
:|To you and me, probably so, but to the religious right who think we are
:|a "Christian Nation" and should be so ruled, it needs to be made
:|absolutely clear. They suffer from confusion and from concrete
:|thinking.
Do you think for even a second that they would be unable to find ways to
skirt any language that any new Amendment might contain?
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Uncle Buck" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 02:20:54 PM |
|
|
I think leaving the religious references on money is almost
"appropriate" in some sick, deranged way. A religious devotion to
such idolatry shows them not only for the hypocrites they are, but it
also shows where their religious devotion really lay - with money.
--
L8r,
Uncle Buck
\~------------0-0-0-O-o*O*o*O*o-O-0-0-0------------~/
There are two main things we must concern ourselves
with in life: Our "to Do" list and our "do-do" list.
/~------------0-0-0-O-o*O*o*O*o-O-0-0-0------------~\
.
|
|
|
| User: "Gray Shockley" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 01:25:10 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:20:54 -0500, Uncle Buck wrote:
I think leaving the religious references on money is almost
"appropriate" in some sick, deranged way. A religious devotion to
such idolatry shows them not only for the hypocrites they are, but it
also shows where their religious devotion really lay - with money.
--
L8r,
Uncle Buck
"Believe in my god of peace and love or I'll kill you"?
"Love of money is the root of organized religion"?
"I'm Pro-Life; bring me his head on a platter"?
"God told me to become a serial bomber & murderer"?
"Of course, we shoot from the back; it's for god"?
"God told me to do it"?
"Let us prey."
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 11:15:35 AM |
|
|
nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
:|On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 06:53:15 -0400, wrote:
:|
:|>God off money
:|
:|Who cares?
A lot of people care.
It is a step.
It begins a journey.
Its like adding a drop or white paint to a can full of black paint.
It begins a process and as more steps (more drops or white paint) are
added it begins making a difference.
:|What practical purpose would removing the text serve?
See above.
:|Who reads the
:|text "In God We Trust" on their money and becomes a theist? What loser
:|reads all the text on their money anyway?
Loser? My My, how sad this pushed your button so much you feel a need to
label people you have never met and probably never will losers.
:|
:|I am an atheist and I don't give a damn
and I don't care what you are or what you think
**************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and the discussion group for the above site listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members]
For people in Hampton Roads you are also invited to join
NORFOLK/VA. B. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MEETUP GROUP
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/
Virginia Chapter Americans United for Separation of Church and State
http://au-va.org/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."
Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.
This site is a member of the following web rings:
Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring
The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring
American History WebRing--&--The History Ring
Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring
Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
****************************************************************
.
|
|
|
| User: "nobody" |
|
| Title: Re: God off money |
24 Jul 2005 11:50:34 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:15:35 -0400, wrote:
nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
:|On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 06:53:15 -0400, wrote:
:|>God off money
:|Who cares?
A lot of people care.
It is a step.
It begins a journey.
Its like adding a drop or white paint to a can full of black paint.
It begins a process and as more steps (more drops or white paint) are
added it begins making a difference.
:|What practical purpose would removing the text serve?
See above.
That wasn't a statement of purpose, that was a bunch of empty slogans.
"It's a step"? A step to what? Each step needs a purpose. What
practical purpose does attempting to remove that phrase from money
serve (other than making atheists look like a bitter combative fools)?
.
|
|
|
|
|
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|
Related Articles |
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