Religions > Atheism > Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
09 Apr 2006 08:23:11 PM |
| Object: |
Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
Hi folks,
Just to make the record straight. The Gnostics had a radically
dualistic worldview.
God was good ... the earth was evil
spirit was good ... flesh, material was evil
men were good ... women were evil
This view is taken to its final conclusion in the last saying of the
Gospel of Thomas (Saying #114) which has Jesus proclaiming the "good
news to women" that they can become men!
Don't believe me? Check out ...
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9068/splitv.htm
Thanks be to God that _that_ "gospel" was buried under Egypt's desert
sands for 1800 years. Could you imagine it _this_ was included in
accepted Christian deposit of faith?
Fr. Dennis Kriz, OSM
denniskriz@yahoo.com
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| User: "Chris Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
09 Apr 2006 08:30:14 PM |
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wrote:
Hi folks,
Just to make the record straight. The Gnostics had a radically
dualistic worldview.
alt.religion.gnostic -- No problems.
talk.religion.misc -- Yeah, I can see that one.
alt.atheism -- Er... not quite seeing the relevance to atheists.
God was good ... the earth was evil
spirit was good ... flesh, material was evil
men were good ... women were evil
This view is taken to its final conclusion in the last saying of the
Gospel of Thomas (Saying #114) which has Jesus proclaiming the "good
news to women" that they can become men!
Don't believe me? Check out ...
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9068/splitv.htm
Ah, now I see the relevance. You're just trying to get hits for your
site. Please stop spamming alt.atheism.
[]
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| User: "Kater Moggin" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
09 Apr 2006 11:41:12 PM |
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denniskriz@yahoo.com:
Just to make the record straight. The Gnostics had a radically
dualistic worldview.
Chris Johnson <effigies@gmail.com>:
alt.religion.gnostic -- No problems.
talk.religion.misc -- Yeah, I can see that one.
alt.atheism -- Er... not quite seeing the relevance to atheists.
Yeah, I wondered about that one, too. And how come Dennis
goes on to screw with the record?
Dennis:
God was good ... the earth was evil
spirit was good ... flesh, material was evil
men were good ... women were evil
The same score: two out of three. Yes, gnosticism thinks
well of God and spirit, looks down on the material world --
not the mention the related heavens. But it offended Christian
proto-orthodoxy -- I'm thinking of a misogynist like
Tertullian -- by offering women a meaningful role its rites and
rituals, and the gnostic literature repeatedly (not saying
consistently) defends women against their attackers, symbolized
by Mary and Peter, respectively.
Dennis:
This view is taken to its final conclusion in the last saying of the
Gospel of Thomas (Saying #114) which has Jesus proclaiming the "good
news to women" that they can become men!
Two basic problems here. Thomas is a mixed bag, much like
the canonical Gospels, presenting themes gnostic and
otherwise, not a clearly gnostic writing. And according to the
text Jesus is refuting a disciple who contends that women
can't be saved: a detail Father Dennis chose not to mention in
his summary.
Dennis:
Don't believe me? Check out ...
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9068/splitv.htm
Chris:
Ah, now I see the relevance. You're just trying to get hits for your
site.
Probably not his site. The link goes right to the Grondin
translation. No ads.
Please stop spamming alt.atheism.
You could remove AA from the follow-ups. What I did on my
other replies.
-- Moggin
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| User: "shriven leper" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
09 Apr 2006 09:15:07 PM |
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On 9 Apr 2006 18:23:11 -0700, wrote:
Hi folks,
Just to make the record straight. The Gnostics had a radically
dualistic worldview.
God was good ... the earth was evil
spirit was good ... flesh, material was evil
men were good ... women were evil
This view is taken to its final conclusion in the last saying of the
Gospel of Thomas (Saying #114) which has Jesus proclaiming the "good
news to women" that they can become men!
GospThom includes some Gnostic themes but it's far from being a
Gnostic text. It says, for example, that the world is radiantly holy
_if_ seen from a true spiritual perspective, and it has Jesus
wondering if the splendor of spirit exists because of matter. This is
abundantly illustrated in Stevan Davies' "The Gospel of Thomas and
Christian Wisdom".
Don't believe me? Check out ...
Not hard to believe - it's Thomas's famous 114 logion. Don't try to
mystify Gnostics with one of their favored texts.
Thanks be to God that _that_ "gospel" was buried under Egypt's desert
sands for 1800 years. Could you imagine it _this_ was included in
accepted Christian deposit of faith?
Fr. Dennis Kriz, OSM
Thanks be to the true God, not your pathological YHVH and his
all-too-often retarded "Son", that Gospels such as Thomas were
rediscovered after being hidden under persecutions by members of your
"accepted Christian" faithful. The "accepted Christian deposit of
faith" is a bogus construct created by the Church politicians
themselves, a nasty, poisonous concoction of power-loving Hellenists.
It has no authority.
If you want to condemn GospThom for one logion that looks sexist,
where is your condemnation of the plurality of sexist, violent,
hating, mean, texts in your slimy accepted canon of Christian faith?
You hypocrite.
- sl -
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| User: "Isabella" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
10 Apr 2006 07:54:47 PM |
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Hmm, in general, I wouldn't take it as far as to say that Thomas is 'far
from Gnostic', but 114 has gotten the worst rep. It seems often certain
people skim through Thomas and pick on 114. The very beginning of Thomas
states these are the 'hidden' sayings. Duh. Otherwise, you have Jesus about
to perform a sex change operation.
Isabella
"shriven leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:r9fj32d068ffva776l8v5m62cdivn7fk7m@4ax.com...
On 9 Apr 2006 18:23:11 -0700, wrote:
Hi folks,
Just to make the record straight. The Gnostics had a radically
dualistic worldview.
God was good ... the earth was evil
spirit was good ... flesh, material was evil
men were good ... women were evil
This view is taken to its final conclusion in the last saying of the
Gospel of Thomas (Saying #114) which has Jesus proclaiming the "good
news to women" that they can become men!
GospThom includes some Gnostic themes but it's far from being a
Gnostic text. It says, for example, that the world is radiantly holy
_if_ seen from a true spiritual perspective, and it has Jesus
wondering if the splendor of spirit exists because of matter. This is
abundantly illustrated in Stevan Davies' "The Gospel of Thomas and
Christian Wisdom".
Don't believe me? Check out ...
Not hard to believe - it's Thomas's famous 114 logion. Don't try to
mystify Gnostics with one of their favored texts.
Thanks be to God that _that_ "gospel" was buried under Egypt's desert
sands for 1800 years. Could you imagine it _this_ was included in
accepted Christian deposit of faith?
Fr. Dennis Kriz, OSM
Thanks be to the true God, not your pathological YHVH and his
all-too-often retarded "Son", that Gospels such as Thomas were
rediscovered after being hidden under persecutions by members of your
"accepted Christian" faithful. The "accepted Christian deposit of
faith" is a bogus construct created by the Church politicians
themselves, a nasty, poisonous concoction of power-loving Hellenists.
It has no authority.
If you want to condemn GospThom for one logion that looks sexist,
where is your condemnation of the plurality of sexist, violent,
hating, mean, texts in your slimy accepted canon of Christian faith?
You hypocrite.
- sl -
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| User: "Peter Terry" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
19 Apr 2006 02:46:33 AM |
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"Isabella" <isabellariley@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:H9CdnVeOAIUfYqfZnZ2dnUVZ_vydnZ2d@comcast.com...
Hmm, in general, I wouldn't take it as far as to say that Thomas is 'far
from Gnostic', but 114 has gotten the worst rep. It seems often certain
people skim through Thomas and pick on 114. The very beginning of Thomas
states these are the 'hidden' sayings. Duh. Otherwise, you have Jesus
about
to perform a sex change operation.
Perhaps the explanation is more simple than we think, and in 114
Jesus in one of his many displays of SARCASM was reacting to
Peters clear jealousy of Mary Magdalene's close relationship to him.
The can. gospels tend to suggest that Jesus viewed woman as
equals so it's unlikely in 114 that he's displaying pure chauvinism.
Peters attitude in 114 can be understood, because like Paul they are
both conservatives who support the traditional thinking of the day
towards women. Tertullian was another one of this yoke.
In Peters own words, 1 Peter 3: 7 "..women are the weaker vessels."
and "...you wives must submit to your husbands, 1 Peter 3:1.
PeterT
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| User: "Kater Moggin" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
10 Apr 2006 08:48:32 PM |
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Isabella <isabellariley@comcast.net>:
It seems often certain people skim through Thomas and pick on 114.
Or worse, we get people like Father Dennis who skim Thomas
114 and quote Jesus out-of-context, then toss half-baked
accusations at gnosticism. You'd think the seminaries could do
a better job.
-- Moggin
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| User: "Isabella" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
10 Apr 2006 09:06:34 PM |
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Yes, you would think that a seminary education would at least be in part
objective and instill analytical thought at some point. Unfortunately, it's
very hard for most to get past those beliefs that have conditioned in them a
fear of God which prevents questioning and seeking.
Isabella
"Kater Moggin" <kimmerian@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:kimmerian-991FB4.21483110042006@news.verizon.net...
Isabella <isabellariley@comcast.net>:
It seems often certain people skim through Thomas and pick on 114.
Or worse, we get people like Father Dennis who skim Thomas
114 and quote Jesus out-of-context, then toss half-baked
accusations at gnosticism. You'd think the seminaries could do
a better job.
-- Moggin
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
10 Apr 2006 06:40:25 PM |
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Look, no matter what one may say about the Hebrew and Christian canons,
one simply does not find a statement that WOMEN have to become MEN to
be saved.
Indeed, Genesis 1,28 has both men and women created in God's image.
Dennis
denniskriz@yahoo.com
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| User: "Lion Of Judah" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
10 Apr 2006 08:34:12 PM |
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<denniskriz@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1144712425.582174.280830@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Look, no matter what one may say about the Hebrew and Christian canons,
one simply does not find a statement that WOMEN have to become MEN to
be saved.
Correct, in fact...
Mark:3:35: For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother,
and my sister, and mother.
No requirement there for the sister to become a brother.
Indeed, Genesis 1,28 has both men and women created in God's image.
Dennis
denniskriz@yahoo.com
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| User: "shriven leper" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
10 Apr 2006 11:16:47 PM |
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On 10 Apr 2006 16:40:25 -0700, wrote:
Look, no matter what one may say about the Hebrew and Christian canons,
one simply does not find a statement that WOMEN have to become MEN to
be saved.
Indeed, Genesis 1,28 has both men and women created in God's image.
Dennis
Look, you don't have the moral probity to admit your hypocrisy in
condemning GospThom for one purportedly misogyinist logion, while your
unesteemable canon is full of misogyny. You came on strong and heavy
into a Gnostic group with the "news" about GospThom Logion 114. It
was pointed out to you that it's not news at all, and detailed
explanations of the text were freely given to you. Instead of
replying to the posters, you come back in with another weak defense of
orthodoxy. Doesn't cut it around here.
- sl -
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| User: "Kater Moggin" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
10 Apr 2006 08:41:09 PM |
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denniskriz@yahoo.com:
Look, no matter what one may say about the Hebrew and Christian canons
You raised the subject, fella, claiming it would have been
some kind of tragedy if the Gospel of Thomas had been
accepted by Christian orthodoxy; but the only thing you offered
to support your assessment was a single verse you quoted
totally out-of-context, pretending it said that women were evil.
You were wrong, of course. In Thomas 114, Peter, the rock
of orthodoxy, makes the misogynistic suggestion that Mary
Magdalene should leave, because "Women are unworthy of the life."
But Jesus is then said to _reject_ Peter's woman-hating
opinion, answering that he'll make her a man so "she may become
a Living Spirit..."
So at minimum, looking only at the saying itself, Jesus is
presented _repudiating_ Peter's misogyny and moving to
_include_ Mary with the saved, already the opposite of your own
contextless accusations.
If the saying _is_ gnostic -- your assumption about Thomas
in its entirely, even though the Gospel is a mixed bag --
things get even more interesting, since it fits in with related
scenes in the Gospel of Mary and the Pistis Sophia, where
Peter attacks Mary on grounds she's a woman, only to be rebuked
by Jesus or Levi. (Details in my earlier post.) In this
setting, Thomas 114 belongs to a _feminist_ theme in gnosticism.
The idea of women becoming men also becomes understandable
when the saying is interpreted in relation to gnosticism --
the Valentinian brand, in specific. I've already gone thru the
specifics. Short version: women turning into men and the
reverse take on particular spiritual meaning in the Valentinian
outlook. They're soteriological concepts, parts of the
process by which the pneuma leaves this lower world and ascends
to marriage with the angels.
one simply does not find a statement that WOMEN have to become MEN to
be saved.
Obviously Thomas 114 and related sayings -- including vice
versa, where men become women -- aren't in the orthodox
Christian canon. What you were calling the "accepted Christian
deposit of faith" includes no shortage of genuine misogny.
Examples: 1 Cor.'s command that women should remain silent in
church and be "under obedience" to their husbands. Rev. 14:4's
assertion that women are defiling to men. And of course
Tertullian's commentary, e.g., "The sentence of God on this sex
of yours lives on even in our times and so it is necessary
that the guilt should live on, also." _On the Apparel of Women_
section 1.
Indeed, Genesis 1,28 has both men and women created in God's image.
Making it all the more absurd that many Christian churches
ban women from becoming priests.
-- Moggin
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
11 Apr 2006 08:49:57 AM |
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Kater Moggin wrote:
Dishonestly, as a rule.
denniskriz@yahoo.com:
Look, no matter what one may say about the Hebrew and Christian canons
You raised the subject...
Change of subject to abuse noted.
one simply does not find a statement that WOMEN have to become MEN to
be saved.
Obviously ...
Second change of subject noted.
Indeed, Genesis 1,28 has both men and women created in God's image.
Making it all the more absurd that many Christian churches
ban women from becoming priests.
Christophobia noted. Reiteration noted.
Moggin's posts are always of this type: a refusal to deal with the
issue, combined with abuse. Just ignore him.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "Lion Of Judah" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
11 Apr 2006 09:15:34 AM |
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<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1144763397.623152.227180@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Kater Moggin wrote:
Dishonestly, as a rule.
denniskriz@yahoo.com:
Look, no matter what one may say about the Hebrew and Christian canons
You raised the subject...
Change of subject to abuse noted.
one simply does not find a statement that WOMEN have to become MEN to
be saved.
Obviously ...
Second change of subject noted.
Indeed, Genesis 1,28 has both men and women created in God's image.
Making it all the more absurd that many Christian churches
ban women from becoming priests.
Christophobia noted. Reiteration noted.
Moggin's posts are always of this type: a refusal to deal with the
issue,
You don't have to tell me that twice.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
11 Apr 2006 11:12:55 AM |
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Lion Of Judah wrote:
<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1144763397.623152.227180@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Kater Moggin wrote:
Dishonestly, as a rule.
denniskriz@yahoo.com:
Look, no matter what one may say about the Hebrew and Christian canons
You raised the subject...
Change of subject to abuse noted.
one simply does not find a statement that WOMEN have to become MEN to
be saved.
Obviously ...
Second change of subject noted.
Indeed, Genesis 1,28 has both men and women created in God's image.
Making it all the more absurd that many Christian churches
ban women from becoming priests.
Christophobia noted. Reiteration noted.
Moggin's posts are always of this type: a refusal to deal with the
issue,
You don't have to tell me that twice.
Well, he deceives the newcomer. But eventually most people notice that
all of his posts consist of
a) Changing the subject, usually to throw
assertions/abuse/insults/insinuations
b) Reiterating what he has already said and you have already refuted,
as if it were new.
c) Bogus scholarly citations from the fathers
He's merely a Christophobic scribbler, unfortunately. And he will
never, never, put his own cards on the table.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "Lion Of Judah" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
11 Apr 2006 01:20:20 PM |
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<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1144771975.233467.187780@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Lion Of Judah wrote:
<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1144763397.623152.227180@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Kater Moggin wrote:
Dishonestly, as a rule.
denniskriz@yahoo.com:
Look, no matter what one may say about the Hebrew and Christian
canons
You raised the subject...
Change of subject to abuse noted.
one simply does not find a statement that WOMEN have to become MEN
to
be saved.
Obviously ...
Second change of subject noted.
Indeed, Genesis 1,28 has both men and women created in God's image.
Making it all the more absurd that many Christian churches
ban women from becoming priests.
Christophobia noted. Reiteration noted.
Moggin's posts are always of this type: a refusal to deal with the
issue,
You don't have to tell me that twice.
Well, he deceives the newcomer. But eventually most people notice that
all of his posts consist of
a) Changing the subject, usually to throw
assertions/abuse/insults/insinuations
b) Reiterating what he has already said and you have already refuted,
as if it were new.
You read my mind.
c) Bogus scholarly citations from the fathers
He's merely a Christophobic scribbler, unfortunately. And he will
never, never, put his own cards on the table.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "Darrell Stec" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
13 Apr 2006 03:39:20 PM |
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After serious contemplation, on or about Tuesday 11 April 2006 2:20 pm
Lion Of Judah perhaps from wrote:
<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1144771975.233467.187780@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Lion Of Judah wrote:
<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1144763397.623152.227180@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Kater Moggin wrote:
Dishonestly, as a rule.
denniskriz@yahoo.com:
Look, no matter what one may say about the Hebrew and Christian
canons
You raised the subject...
Change of subject to abuse noted.
one simply does not find a statement that WOMEN have to become
MEN to
be saved.
Obviously ...
Second change of subject noted.
Indeed, Genesis 1,28 has both men and women created in God's
image.
Making it all the more absurd that many Christian churches
ban women from becoming priests.
Christophobia noted. Reiteration noted.
Moggin's posts are always of this type: a refusal to deal with the
issue,
You don't have to tell me that twice.
Well, he deceives the newcomer. But eventually most people notice
that all of his posts consist of
a) Changing the subject, usually to throw
assertions/abuse/insults/insinuations
b) Reiterating what he has already said and you have already refuted,
as if it were new.
You read my mind.
That is not a difficult trick. There is so little in it.
c) Bogus scholarly citations from the fathers
He's merely a Christophobic scribbler, unfortunately. And he will
never, never, put his own cards on the table.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
11 Apr 2006 02:16:04 PM |
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Lion Of Judah wrote:
<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1144771975.233467.187780@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Lion Of Judah wrote:
<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1144763397.623152.227180@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Kater Moggin wrote:
Dishonestly, as a rule.
denniskriz@yahoo.com:
Look, no matter what one may say about the Hebrew and Christian
canons
You raised the subject...
Change of subject to abuse noted.
one simply does not find a statement that WOMEN have to become MEN
to
be saved.
Obviously ...
Second change of subject noted.
Indeed, Genesis 1,28 has both men and women created in God's image.
Making it all the more absurd that many Christian churches
ban women from becoming priests.
Christophobia noted. Reiteration noted.
Moggin's posts are always of this type: a refusal to deal with the
issue,
You don't have to tell me that twice.
Well, he deceives the newcomer. But eventually most people notice that
all of his posts consist of
a) Changing the subject, usually to throw
assertions/abuse/insults/insinuations
b) Reiterating what he has already said and you have already refuted,
as if it were new.
You read my mind.
Glad to meet someone else who's fed up with these antics.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "Peter Terry" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
19 Apr 2006 01:59:23 AM |
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<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1144782964.634194.299540@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Lion Of Judah wrote:
<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1144771975.233467.187780@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Lion Of Judah wrote:
<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1144763397.623152.227180@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Kater Moggin wrote:
Dishonestly, as a rule.
denniskriz@yahoo.com:
Look, no matter what one may say about the Hebrew and Christian
canons
You raised the subject...
Change of subject to abuse noted.
one simply does not find a statement that WOMEN have to become
MEN
to
be saved.
Obviously ...
Second change of subject noted.
Indeed, Genesis 1,28 has both men and women created in God's
image.
Making it all the more absurd that many Christian churches
ban women from becoming priests.
Christophobia noted. Reiteration noted.
Moggin's posts are always of this type: a refusal to deal with the
issue,
You don't have to tell me that twice.
Well, he deceives the newcomer. But eventually most people notice that
all of his posts consist of
a) Changing the subject, usually to throw
assertions/abuse/insults/insinuations
b) Reiterating what he has already said and you have already refuted,
as if it were new.
You read my mind.
Glad to meet someone else who's fed up with these antics.
How farcical you are with nothing to add to the conversation
other than your usual mundane commentaries. The problem
with you Pearse is that you don't possess you own mind
and are only comfortable if you are copying someone else's works
or plagiarising other folks research.
PeterT
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "klaus schilling" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
11 Apr 2006 01:07:21 PM |
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writes:
Well, he deceives the newcomer.
deceivers aare people like Tertullian
who try to fool people into believing
in authentical Paulines and first-century Gospels
He's merely a Christophobic scribbler, unfortunately.
this best describes R.Pearse and E. Brze,
and all the others who deny Marcionite priority
over most of the NT texts.
Klaus Schilling
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| User: "Kater Moggin" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
11 Apr 2006 11:43:26 AM |
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roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk:
a) Changing the subject, usually to throw
assertions/abuse/insults/insinuations
Precicely what Roger is doing here, same as he's done time
and time before: ignoring the subject, in this case the
Gospel of Thomas and so on, while supplying only insults, abuse
and insinuations.
b) Reiterating what he has already said and you have already refuted,
as if it were new.
Impossible for Roger to have refuted anything -- he's been
too busy calling names.
c) Bogus scholarly citations from the fathers
Case in point: Roger hasn't even tried to show the quotes
I gave are false. He wouldn't be able to -- I quoted
Tertullian's translator verbatim -- so he makes insinuations do
the job for him.
-- Moggin
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| User: "Lion Of Judah" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
11 Apr 2006 01:23:40 PM |
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"Kater Moggin" <kimmerian@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:kimmerian-FE7A31.12432711042006@news.verizon.net...
roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk:
a) Changing the subject, usually to throw
assertions/abuse/insults/insinuations
Precicely what Roger is doing here,
You haven't disagreed that it is what you're doing, and you're now
attempting to change the issue once more into what Roger is doing. Trying
sticking with the subject next time.
same as he's done time
and time before: ignoring the subject, in this case the
Gospel of Thomas and so on, while supplying only insults, abuse
and insinuations.
b) Reiterating what he has already said and you have already refuted,
as if it were new.
Impossible for Roger to have refuted anything -- he's been
too busy calling names.
c) Bogus scholarly citations from the fathers
Case in point: Roger hasn't even tried to show the quotes
I gave are false.
Your nonsense about Jesus not expecting to end up on the cross is a prime
example of your silly diatribe.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
11 Apr 2006 02:15:04 PM |
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Lion Of Judah wrote:
"Kater Moggin" <kimmerian@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:kimmerian-FE7A31.12432711042006@news.verizon.net...
roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk:
a) Changing the subject, usually to throw
assertions/abuse/insults/insinuations
Precicely what Roger is doing here, (subject change snipped)
You haven't disagreed that it is what you're doing, and you're now
attempting to change the issue once more into what Roger is doing. Trying
sticking with the subject next time.
It's hilarious, isn't it? It's not exactly a defence to do exactly
what he's criticised for!
b) Reiterating what he has already said and you have already refuted,
as if it were new.
Impossible for Roger to have refuted anything -- he's been
too busy calling names.
Again, subject change.
c) Bogus scholarly citations from the fathers
Case in point: Roger hasn't even tried to show the quotes
I gave are false.
And another.
Your nonsense about Jesus not expecting to end up on the cross is a prime
example of your silly diatribe.
It's all bunk. And, as before, he cannot and will not put his own
position on the table. All he will ever do is snipe.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "Kater Moggin" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
11 Apr 2006 02:41:49 PM |
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[follow-ups set]
roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk:
It's hilarious, isn't it? It's not exactly a defence to do exactly
Exactly. Roger makes himself a laughingstock my repeating
his claims w/out ever defending them.
It's all bunk.
There he goes again. Lots of accusations, but no evidence
for them from Mr. Pearse.
-- Moggin
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| User: "Kater Moggin" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
11 Apr 2006 02:29:46 PM |
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[follow-ups set]
Lion Of Judah <sonofman1@comcast.net> wrote:
sticking with the subject next time.
The topics here are gnosticism, Thomas (meaning the Gospel
by that name), and what Father Dennis called the "accepted
deposit of faith." I've been over them several times, but I'll
give it another go, since you ask.
Dennis' contextless quotation from Thomas 114 doesn't tell
the truth even about that saying, where Jesus is rejecting
Peter's wish to ban Mary because she's a woman, still less back
up the good father's sweeping claims about gnosticism.
Gnostic literature and patristic evidence both argue women took
important roles in gnosticism: important enough to shock
Church Dads like Epiphanius and Tertullian, who were astonished
that women taught, healed, argued, baptized, exorcized and
consecrated in the gnostic churches, and an offense to Peter in
the gnostic writings, who gets rebuked by Jesus or by Levi
when he protests that Mary, a woman, shouldn't be given so much
authority.
By contrast, the "accepted deposit of faith" demands women
remain under obedience to their husbands, keep silent in
church (1 Cor. 14:34), claims they defile men (Rev. 14:4), even
insists they're condemned by God (see Tertullian, _On the
Apparel of Women_, sec. 1). Just a few of many examples. Feel
free to add some of your own.
Your nonsense about Jesus not expecting to end up on the cross is a prime
Jesus twice teaches against sacrifice in Matthew, claiming
God wants mercy instead -- a thought that he borrows from
Hosea -- and his last words on the cross according both Matthew
and Mark, asking why God has forsaken him, imply that he
expected a different turn of events, contradicting the story he
planned to end up there.
-- Moggin
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
11 Apr 2006 04:27:16 PM |
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Kater Moggin wrote:
[follow-ups set]
<chuckle> Another troll trick... fixed.
Lion Of Judah <sonofman1@comcast.net> wrote:
sticking with the subject next time.
The topics here
Not in this group, son.
are gnosticism, Thomas (meaning the Gospel
by that name), and what Father Dennis called the "accepted
deposit of faith."
Is that why you keep obsessing about me instead?
I've been over them several times, but I'll
give it another go, since you ask.
(Reiteration snipped)
I didn't ask. I told you to answer the question, not just ignore it.
Why is it that you're so dishonest? What dirty little vice do you have
to conceal?
Your nonsense about Jesus not expecting to end up on the cross is a prime
(Reiteration snipped)
And, once again, Moggin just goes back into troll mode.
Game over, it would seem.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "Kater Moggin" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
11 Apr 2006 08:05:22 PM |
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roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk:
The topics here
Not in this group, son.
The topics of this thread are Thomas -- meaning the Gospel
by that name -- gnosticism, and the so-called "accepted
deposit of faith," i.e., Christian orthodoxy. You're presently
ducking each and every one.
Game over, it would seem.
Agreed. You've taken three swings, made three misses, and
so it's time for you to go back to the bench.
-- Moggin
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| User: "Isabella" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
11 Apr 2006 05:20:01 PM |
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Why don't the two of you just come out and show this list how much you know
about Thomas. Oh wait, I believe you did.
Isabella
"Lion Of Judah" <sonofman1@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:9aednUcMeraNJ6bZnZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d@comcast.com...
<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1144763397.623152.227180@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Kater Moggin wrote:
Dishonestly, as a rule.
denniskriz@yahoo.com:
Look, no matter what one may say about the Hebrew and Christian
canons
You raised the subject...
Change of subject to abuse noted.
one simply does not find a statement that WOMEN have to become MEN to
be saved.
Obviously ...
Second change of subject noted.
Indeed, Genesis 1,28 has both men and women created in God's image.
Making it all the more absurd that many Christian churches
ban women from becoming priests.
Christophobia noted. Reiteration noted.
Moggin's posts are always of this type: a refusal to deal with the
issue,
You don't have to tell me that twice.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
19 Apr 2006 12:59:50 AM |
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wrote:
Kater Moggin wrote:
Dishonestly, as a rule.
denniskriz@yahoo.com:
Look, no matter what one may say about the Hebrew and Christian canons
You raised the subject...
Change of subject to abuse noted.
one simply does not find a statement that WOMEN have to become MEN to
be saved.
Obviously ...
Second change of subject noted.
Indeed, Genesis 1,28 has both men and women created in God's image.
Making it all the more absurd that many Christian churches
ban women from becoming priests.
Christophobia noted. Reiteration noted.
Moggin's posts are always of this type: a refusal to deal with the
issue, combined with abuse. Just ignore him.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
I learned to ignore Kater long ago.
Regards,
Jim
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
19 Apr 2006 06:29:06 AM |
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wrote:
roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Moggin's posts are always of this type: a refusal to deal with the
issue, combined with abuse. Just ignore him.
I learned to ignore Kater long ago.
Me too. The only group of people that we have to consign to oblivion
on principle are the deliberately dishonest. This is because there is
no way to have a sensible discussion with someone who is willing to
lie.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "klaus schilling" |
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| Title: Re: Gospel of Thomas - Saying 114 - Women must become men to be saved |
19 Apr 2006 07:54:53 AM |
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writes:
Me too. The only group of people that we have to consign to oblivion
on principle are the deliberately dishonest.
then Pearse would have to close down tertullian.org,
as Tertullian is dishonesty incarnate, unlike Marcion.
Klaus Schilling
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