| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Happy Guy" |
| Date: |
30 Oct 2003 01:51:17 AM |
| Object: |
Half of American atheists believe in life after death |
Americans Describe Their Views About Life After Death
October 21, 2003
(Ventura, CA) Despite the constant flux in many dimensions of
Americans? lives, a new study from the Barna Research Group of
Ventura, California, shows that most people have retained surprisingly
traditional views about life after death. Although the lifestyles,
values, and self-perceptions of most adults have undergone significant
change ? and millions of Americans have embraced many elements of a
postmodern worldview ? the vast majority continues to believe that
there is life after death, that everyone has a soul, and that Heaven
and Hell exist. However, more than 50 million adults are uncertain
regarding their personal eternal fate.
The Afterlife
Belief in life after death, like the existence of God, is widely
embraced: 8 out of 10 Americans (81%) believe in an afterlife of some
sort. Another 9% said life after death may exist, but they were not
certain. Just one out of every ten adults (10%) contend that there is
no form of life after one dies on earth.
Moreover, a large majority of Americans (79%) agreed with the
statement ?every person has a soul that will live forever, either in
God?s presence or absence.?
Evangelicals, born again Christians, and Elders (ages 58 and older)
were the most likely segments to embrace the idea of life after death.
Those least likely to believe in life after death were Hispanics,
Busters (ages 20-38), residents of the West, atheists and agnostics,
those associated with a faith other than Christianity, and unchurched
adults ? although more than two-thirds of each of these groups accept
the existence of an afterlife.
Heaven and Hell
The survey also explored peoples? views of Heaven and Hell. In all,
76% believe that Heaven exists, while nearly the same proportion said
that there is such a thing as Hell (71%). Respondents were given
various descriptions of Heaven and asked to choose the statement that
best fits their belief about Heaven. Those who believe in Heaven were
divided between describing Heaven as ?a state of eternal existence in
God?s presence? (46%) and those who said it is ?an actual place of
rest and reward where souls go after death? (30%). Other Americans
claimed that Heaven is just ?symbolic? (14%), that there is no such
thing as life after death (5%), or that they are not sure (5%).
While there is no dominant view of Hell, two particular perspectives
are popular. Four out of ten adults believe that Hell is ?a state of
eternal separation from God?s presence? (39%) and one-third (32%) says
it is ?an actual place of torment and suffering where people?s souls
go after death.? A third perspective that one in eight adults believe
is that ?Hell is just a symbol of an unknown bad outcome after death?
(13%). Other respondents were ?not sure? or said they that they do not
believe in an afterlife (16%).
Destinations
Most Americans do not expect to experience Hell first-hand: just
one-half of 1% expect to go to Hell upon their death. Nearly
two-thirds of Americans (64%) believe they will go to Heaven. One in
20 adults (5%) claim they will come back as another life form, while
the same proportion (5%) contend they will simply cease to exist.
Even though most Americans believe in life after death and the
existence of the soul, not everyone is clear about their own ultimate
destination. One in every four adults (24%) admitted that they have
?no idea? what will happen after they die. Those who felt their
eternal future is undefined were most likely to be Hispanics, singles,
men, atheists and agnostics, residents of the West, and 18- and
19-year-olds (i.e., young adults who also happen to be the first
members of the Mosaic generation to enter adulthood).
Among those who expect to go to Heaven, there were differences in how
they anticipate such an end would be attained. Nearly half of those
who say they are Heaven bound (43%) believe they will go to Heaven
because they have ?confessed their sins and accepted Jesus Christ as
their savior.? Others felt they will get to Heaven because ?they have
tried to obey the 10 Commandments? (15%) or because ?they are
basically a good person? (15%). Another 6% believed their entrance to
Heaven would be based upon the fact that ?God loves all people and
will not let them perish.?
One of the intriguing findings from the research is that education and
income are negatively correlated with belief in Heaven and Hell. In
other words, the more education a person gets or the more income they
earn, the less likely they are to believe that Heaven or Hell exists.
While most high-income households and college graduates maintain
belief in Heaven and Hell, the finding reinforces the popular notion ?
and, indeed, Jesus? teaching ? that people of economic means and those
with considerable education struggle to embrace biblical teachings on
such matters.
The New Views
Although a comparison of current beliefs to those held over the past
two decades shows that Americans? views about life after death have
been relatively stable over time, new perceptions about the hereafter
are being grafted into the traditional perspectives. For instance,
nearly 1 in 5 adults (18%) now contends that people are reincarnated
after death. And one-third of Americans (34%) believe that it is
possible to communicate with others after their death. As evidence
that this belief is gaining traction, consider that nearly half of all
Busters (48%) embrace the concept of communication with the dead,
while just 35% of Boomers (39-57) and 15% of Elders (ages 58+) do so.
Contradictions Reign
George Barna, the president of the company that conducted the
research, pointed out that ?Americans? willingness to embrace beliefs
that are logically contradictory and their preference for blending
different faith views together create unorthodox religious
viewpoints.? For instance, he noted that among born again Christians -
who believe that they will experience eternal existence in Heaven
solely because they have confessed their sins to God and are depending
upon Jesus Christ to spare them from eternal punishment or rejection -
10% believe that people are reincarnated after death, 29% claim it is
possible to communicate with the dead, and 50% contend that a person
can earn salvation based upon good works.
?Many committed born again Christians believe that people have
multiple options for gaining entry to Heaven. They are saying, in
essence, ?Personally, I am trusting Jesus Christ as my means of
gaining God?s permanent favor and a place in Heaven ? but someone else
could get to Heaven based upon living an exemplary life.? Millions of
Americans have redefined grace to mean that God is so eager to save
people from Hell that He will change His nature and universal
principles for their individual benefit. It is astounding how many
people develop their faith according to their feelings or cultural
assumptions rather than biblical teachings.?
The California-based researcher indicated that born again Christians
are not the only ones confused about what happens after death. Many of
those who describe themselves as either atheistic or agnostic also
harbor contradictions in their thinking. ?Half of all atheists and
agnostics say that every person has a soul, that Heaven and Hell
exist, and that there is life after death. One out of every eight
atheists and agnostics even believe that accepting Jesus Christ as
savior probably makes life after death possible. These contradictions
are further evidence that many Americans adopt simplistic views of
life and the afterlife based upon ideas drawn from disparate sources,
such as movies, music and novels, without carefully considering those
beliefs. Consequently, the labels attached to people ? whether it be
?born again? or ?atheist? may not give us as much insight into the
person?s beliefs as we might assume.?
Research Methodology
The data described in this report are based on national telephone
surveys among random samples of 1000 or more adults (age 18 or older)
living within the 48 continental states conducted in September 2003,
October 2002, and October 2001. The maximum margin of sampling error
associated with each sample of 1000 adults is ±3 percentage points at
the 95% confidence level. (There are other types of error besides
sampling error that may also be present in surveys.) All of the
interviews were conducted from the Barna Research Group telephone
interviewing facility in Ventura, CA. The distribution of the survey
respondents coincided with the geographic dispersion of the U.S. adult
population according to Census Bureau estimates. Multiple callbacks to
each respondent were used to increase the probability of obtaining
data based on a reliable sample of adults.
?Born again Christians? were defined in these surveys as people who
said they have made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is
still important in their life today and who also indicated they
believe that when they die they will go to Heaven because they had
confessed their sins and had accepted Jesus Christ as their savior.
Respondents were not asked to describe themselves as ?born again.?
?Evangelicals? are a subset of born again Christians in Barna surveys.
In addition to meeting the born again criteria, evangelicals also meet
seven other conditions. Those include saying their faith is very
important in their life today; believing they have a personal
responsibility to share their religious beliefs about Christ with
non-Christians; believing that Satan exists; believing that eternal
salvation is possible only through grace, not works; believing that
Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth; contending that the Bible
is accurate in all that it teaches; and describing God as the
all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect deity who created the universe and
still rules it today. Being classified as an evangelical is not based
upon church attendance or the denominational affiliation of the church
they attend. Respondents were not asked to describe themselves as
?evangelical.?
The Barna Research Group, Ltd. is an independent marketing research
company located in southern California. Since 1984 it has been
studying cultural trends related to values, beliefs, attitudes and
behaviors. This research was funded solely by Barna Research as part
of its regular tracking of the social, religious and political state
of the nation and its churches.
If you would like to receive a bi-weekly update on the latest research
findings from the Barna Research Group, you may subscribe to this free
service at the Barna Research web site (www.barna.org) by providing
your e-mail address in the section of the home page that offers The
Barna Update.
http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/PagePressRelease.asp?PressReleaseID=150&Reference=A
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 07:04:36 AM |
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Lo, many moons past, on Thu, 13 Nov 2003 07:12:33 GMT, a stranger
called by some Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> came forth
and told this tale in alt.atheism
Douglas Berry wrote:
Ah. So, you read them, and that makes them true? So when a Muslim
reads directions, and knows they are the true word of Allah, through
his prophet, Mohammed, that makes it real as well?
No, reading them doesn't make them true. They are true
because they make up the only infallible instruction of
Absolute Morality in the world.
Really? So all the moral teachings in the Koran aren't true? And the
bits in the books you cite about slavery being legal, it being okay to
foce marraiges, etc, are absolutely moral?
Does that mean Eris is real if I only believe in the instructions in
the Principa Discordia? If I clap my hands, will Tinkerbell *really*
come back to life?
If that's your thing... enjoy.
Thank you. Now go away from alt.atheism so we can enjoy being
atheists!
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
12 Nov 2003 10:08:04 PM |
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Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
You'd rather believe in a fantasy afterlife because you want to, no
big deal.
I do not believe in an afterlife but that is only because I have it from
an authority I trust completely.
Which authority?
The ONE God.
How do you know it's the ONE god?
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
--
Fred Stone
Illegitimi non Carborundum
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 01:14:04 AM |
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Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
You'd rather believe in a fantasy afterlife because you want to, no
big deal.
I do not believe in an afterlife but that is only because I have it from
an authority I trust completely.
Which authority?
The ONE God.
How do you know it's the ONE god?
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
Can't be from anyone else.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 04:09:22 AM |
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Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
Can't be from anyone else.
Why not?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 11:36:36 AM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
Can't be from anyone else.
Why not?
Humans are incapable of conceiving Absolute Morality.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 11:45:28 AM |
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On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:36:36 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
Can't be from anyone else.
Why not?
Humans are incapable of conceiving Absolute Morality.
as well as making a reasonable and rational case for it, apparently.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 12:36:21 PM |
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Therion Ware wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:36:36 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
Can't be from anyone else.
Why not?
Humans are incapable of conceiving Absolute Morality.
as well as making a reasonable and rational case for it, apparently.
Thankfully, not everyone is trapped in the closed
intellectual cul de sac you've chosen for yourself.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 01:03:08 PM |
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On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:36:21 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Therion Ware wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:36:36 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
Can't be from anyone else.
Why not?
Humans are incapable of conceiving Absolute Morality.
as well as making a reasonable and rational case for it, apparently.
Thankfully, not everyone is trapped in the closed
intellectual cul de sac you've chosen for yourself.
That'd be the one where assertion is mistaken for fact, would it?
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 01:11:38 PM |
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Therion Ware wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:36:21 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Therion Ware wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:36:36 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
Can't be from anyone else.
Why not?
Humans are incapable of conceiving Absolute Morality.
as well as making a reasonable and rational case for it, apparently.
Thankfully, not everyone is trapped in the closed
intellectual cul de sac you've chosen for yourself.
That'd be the one where assertion is mistaken for fact, would it?
Where wishing counts as reasoning.
--
Fred Stone
Illegitimi non Carborundum
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 10:35:39 PM |
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Fred Stone wrote:
Therion Ware wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:36:21 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Therion Ware wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:36:36 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
Can't be from anyone else.
Why not?
Humans are incapable of conceiving Absolute Morality.
as well as making a reasonable and rational case for it, apparently.
Thankfully, not everyone is trapped in the closed
intellectual cul de sac you've chosen for yourself.
That'd be the one where assertion is mistaken for fact, would it?
Where wishing counts as reasoning.
You wish reason to be reasonable? LOL
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
14 Nov 2003 11:14:50 AM |
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Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Therion Ware wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:36:21 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Therion Ware wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:36:36 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
Can't be from anyone else.
Why not?
Humans are incapable of conceiving Absolute Morality.
as well as making a reasonable and rational case for it, apparently.
Thankfully, not everyone is trapped in the closed
intellectual cul de sac you've chosen for yourself.
That'd be the one where assertion is mistaken for fact, would it?
Where wishing counts as reasoning.
You wish reason to be reasonable? LOL
I wish you to make sense for a change.
--
Fred Stone
Illegitimi non Carborundum
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
14 Nov 2003 04:20:55 PM |
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Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Therion Ware wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:36:21 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Therion Ware wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:36:36 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
Can't be from anyone else.
Why not?
Humans are incapable of conceiving Absolute Morality.
as well as making a reasonable and rational case for it, apparently.
Thankfully, not everyone is trapped in the closed
intellectual cul de sac you've chosen for yourself.
That'd be the one where assertion is mistaken for fact, would it?
Where wishing counts as reasoning.
You wish reason to be reasonable? LOL
I wish you to make sense for a change.
Perhaps your wish should be your command.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "The Holy Kafir" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
14 Nov 2003 06:33:30 PM |
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"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3FB555CD.8B60EFC5@worldnet.att.net...
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Therion Ware wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:36:21 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Therion Ware wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:36:36 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply
to
alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
Can't be from anyone else.
Why not?
Humans are incapable of conceiving Absolute Morality.
as well as making a reasonable and rational case for it,
apparently.
Thankfully, not everyone is trapped in the closed
intellectual cul de sac you've chosen for yourself.
That'd be the one where assertion is mistaken for fact, would it?
Where wishing counts as reasoning.
You wish reason to be reasonable? LOL
I wish you to make sense for a change.
Perhaps your wish should be your command.
Perhaps you, Roy, should quite trying to win arguments by being purposefully
obtuse.
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 10:33:56 PM |
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Therion Ware wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:36:21 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Therion Ware wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:36:36 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
Can't be from anyone else.
Why not?
Humans are incapable of conceiving Absolute Morality.
as well as making a reasonable and rational case for it, apparently.
Thankfully, not everyone is trapped in the closed
intellectual cul de sac you've chosen for yourself.
That'd be the one where assertion is mistaken for fact, would it?
No, the one where assertion is examined for factual content.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "The Holy Kafir" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 06:20:28 PM |
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"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3FB3C1A8.A10FB942@worldnet.att.net...
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
Can't be from anyone else.
Why not?
Humans are incapable of conceiving Absolute Morality.
Unless you are saying you are not human, then how can you possibly know what
is expressed by your "god" is Absolute Morality? You are either not human,
or you can't possibly know if this is Absolute Morality or not. By your
statement, if you are human then you could not conceive such a thing, and
thus can never know if it is true.
So which is it Roy, are you human or not?
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 04:18:22 PM |
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Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
Can't be from anyone else.
Why not?
Humans are incapable of conceiving Absolute Morality.
Says who?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 10:36:37 PM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
Can't be from anyone else.
Why not?
Humans are incapable of conceiving Absolute Morality.
Says who?
Nature.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
14 Nov 2003 08:14:07 AM |
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Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
Can't be from anyone else.
Why not?
Humans are incapable of conceiving Absolute Morality.
Says who?
Nature.
Where?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
14 Nov 2003 10:50:12 AM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
Can't be from anyone else.
Why not?
Humans are incapable of conceiving Absolute Morality.
Says who?
Nature.
Where?
Everywhere.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
14 Nov 2003 11:49:01 AM |
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Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
Can't be from anyone else.
Why not?
Humans are incapable of conceiving Absolute Morality.
Says who?
Nature.
Where?
Everywhere.
Specific examples?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
14 Nov 2003 04:22:30 PM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
Can't be from anyone else.
Why not?
Humans are incapable of conceiving Absolute Morality.
Says who?
Nature.
Where?
Everywhere.
Specific examples?
Moral Relativity.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
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| User: "The Holy Kafir" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
14 Nov 2003 06:34:19 PM |
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"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3FB5562C.4CF70B26@worldnet.att.net...
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
Can't be from anyone else.
Why not?
Humans are incapable of conceiving Absolute Morality.
Says who?
Nature.
Where?
Everywhere.
Specific examples?
Moral Relativity.
haha :)
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 05:49:21 AM |
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Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
You'd rather believe in a fantasy afterlife because you want to, no
big deal.
I do not believe in an afterlife but that is only because I have it from
an authority I trust completely.
Which authority?
The ONE God.
How do you know it's the ONE god?
His instructions convince me He is.
How do you know these instructions?
I read them in Genesis - Deuteronomy.
And how do you know they're from the ONE god?
Can't be from anyone else.
What is there about the Bible that *isn't* from anybody else?
--
Fred Stone
Illegitimi non Carborundum
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 11:39:59 AM |
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Fred Stone wrote:
What is there about the Bible that *isn't* from anybody else?
Humans are incapable of conceiving the complete Absolute Morals
found only in the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
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| User: "Lord Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 12:09:52 PM |
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What is there about the Bible that *isn't* from anybody else?
Humans are incapable of conceiving the complete Absolute Morals
found only in the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy.
Then why follow them?
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Department of Applied Rattan Use
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking, which
leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy." - Robert Anton
Wilson
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 11:50:28 AM |
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Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
What is there about the Bible that *isn't* from anybody else?
Humans are incapable of conceiving the complete Absolute Morals
found only in the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy.
Which is what again? There is nothing unique to the Pentateuch. It's all
been "found" to be derived from earlier cultural sources.
--
Fred Stone
Illegitimi non Carborundum
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 12:41:42 PM |
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Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
What is there about the Bible that *isn't* from anybody else?
Humans are incapable of conceiving the complete Absolute Morals
found only in the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy.
Which is what again? There is nothing unique to the Pentateuch. It's all
been "found" to be derived from earlier cultural sources.
There is no source of [consistent] Absolute Morals in any
source prior to the Five Books of Moses.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 04:21:03 PM |
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Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
What is there about the Bible that *isn't* from anybody else?
Humans are incapable of conceiving the complete Absolute Morals
found only in the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy.
Which is what again? There is nothing unique to the Pentateuch. It's all
been "found" to be derived from earlier cultural sources.
There is no source of [consistent] Absolute Morals in any
source prior to the Five Books of Moses.
What about the Code of Hammurabi?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 10:40:44 PM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
What is there about the Bible that *isn't* from anybody else?
Humans are incapable of conceiving the complete Absolute Morals
found only in the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy.
Which is what again? There is nothing unique to the Pentateuch. It's all
been "found" to be derived from earlier cultural sources.
There is no source of [consistent] Absolute Morals in any
source prior to the Five Books of Moses.
What about the Code of Hammurabi?
The operative word is "consistent".
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
14 Nov 2003 08:16:17 AM |
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Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
What is there about the Bible that *isn't* from anybody else?
Humans are incapable of conceiving the complete Absolute Morals
found only in the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy.
Which is what again? There is nothing unique to the Pentateuch. It's all
been "found" to be derived from earlier cultural sources.
There is no source of [consistent] Absolute Morals in any
source prior to the Five Books of Moses.
What about the Code of Hammurabi?
The operative word is "consistent".
What's inconsistent about it?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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