| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Happy Guy" |
| Date: |
30 Oct 2003 01:51:17 AM |
| Object: |
Half of American atheists believe in life after death |
Americans Describe Their Views About Life After Death
October 21, 2003
(Ventura, CA) Despite the constant flux in many dimensions of
Americans? lives, a new study from the Barna Research Group of
Ventura, California, shows that most people have retained surprisingly
traditional views about life after death. Although the lifestyles,
values, and self-perceptions of most adults have undergone significant
change ? and millions of Americans have embraced many elements of a
postmodern worldview ? the vast majority continues to believe that
there is life after death, that everyone has a soul, and that Heaven
and Hell exist. However, more than 50 million adults are uncertain
regarding their personal eternal fate.
The Afterlife
Belief in life after death, like the existence of God, is widely
embraced: 8 out of 10 Americans (81%) believe in an afterlife of some
sort. Another 9% said life after death may exist, but they were not
certain. Just one out of every ten adults (10%) contend that there is
no form of life after one dies on earth.
Moreover, a large majority of Americans (79%) agreed with the
statement ?every person has a soul that will live forever, either in
God?s presence or absence.?
Evangelicals, born again Christians, and Elders (ages 58 and older)
were the most likely segments to embrace the idea of life after death.
Those least likely to believe in life after death were Hispanics,
Busters (ages 20-38), residents of the West, atheists and agnostics,
those associated with a faith other than Christianity, and unchurched
adults ? although more than two-thirds of each of these groups accept
the existence of an afterlife.
Heaven and Hell
The survey also explored peoples? views of Heaven and Hell. In all,
76% believe that Heaven exists, while nearly the same proportion said
that there is such a thing as Hell (71%). Respondents were given
various descriptions of Heaven and asked to choose the statement that
best fits their belief about Heaven. Those who believe in Heaven were
divided between describing Heaven as ?a state of eternal existence in
God?s presence? (46%) and those who said it is ?an actual place of
rest and reward where souls go after death? (30%). Other Americans
claimed that Heaven is just ?symbolic? (14%), that there is no such
thing as life after death (5%), or that they are not sure (5%).
While there is no dominant view of Hell, two particular perspectives
are popular. Four out of ten adults believe that Hell is ?a state of
eternal separation from God?s presence? (39%) and one-third (32%) says
it is ?an actual place of torment and suffering where people?s souls
go after death.? A third perspective that one in eight adults believe
is that ?Hell is just a symbol of an unknown bad outcome after death?
(13%). Other respondents were ?not sure? or said they that they do not
believe in an afterlife (16%).
Destinations
Most Americans do not expect to experience Hell first-hand: just
one-half of 1% expect to go to Hell upon their death. Nearly
two-thirds of Americans (64%) believe they will go to Heaven. One in
20 adults (5%) claim they will come back as another life form, while
the same proportion (5%) contend they will simply cease to exist.
Even though most Americans believe in life after death and the
existence of the soul, not everyone is clear about their own ultimate
destination. One in every four adults (24%) admitted that they have
?no idea? what will happen after they die. Those who felt their
eternal future is undefined were most likely to be Hispanics, singles,
men, atheists and agnostics, residents of the West, and 18- and
19-year-olds (i.e., young adults who also happen to be the first
members of the Mosaic generation to enter adulthood).
Among those who expect to go to Heaven, there were differences in how
they anticipate such an end would be attained. Nearly half of those
who say they are Heaven bound (43%) believe they will go to Heaven
because they have ?confessed their sins and accepted Jesus Christ as
their savior.? Others felt they will get to Heaven because ?they have
tried to obey the 10 Commandments? (15%) or because ?they are
basically a good person? (15%). Another 6% believed their entrance to
Heaven would be based upon the fact that ?God loves all people and
will not let them perish.?
One of the intriguing findings from the research is that education and
income are negatively correlated with belief in Heaven and Hell. In
other words, the more education a person gets or the more income they
earn, the less likely they are to believe that Heaven or Hell exists.
While most high-income households and college graduates maintain
belief in Heaven and Hell, the finding reinforces the popular notion ?
and, indeed, Jesus? teaching ? that people of economic means and those
with considerable education struggle to embrace biblical teachings on
such matters.
The New Views
Although a comparison of current beliefs to those held over the past
two decades shows that Americans? views about life after death have
been relatively stable over time, new perceptions about the hereafter
are being grafted into the traditional perspectives. For instance,
nearly 1 in 5 adults (18%) now contends that people are reincarnated
after death. And one-third of Americans (34%) believe that it is
possible to communicate with others after their death. As evidence
that this belief is gaining traction, consider that nearly half of all
Busters (48%) embrace the concept of communication with the dead,
while just 35% of Boomers (39-57) and 15% of Elders (ages 58+) do so.
Contradictions Reign
George Barna, the president of the company that conducted the
research, pointed out that ?Americans? willingness to embrace beliefs
that are logically contradictory and their preference for blending
different faith views together create unorthodox religious
viewpoints.? For instance, he noted that among born again Christians -
who believe that they will experience eternal existence in Heaven
solely because they have confessed their sins to God and are depending
upon Jesus Christ to spare them from eternal punishment or rejection -
10% believe that people are reincarnated after death, 29% claim it is
possible to communicate with the dead, and 50% contend that a person
can earn salvation based upon good works.
?Many committed born again Christians believe that people have
multiple options for gaining entry to Heaven. They are saying, in
essence, ?Personally, I am trusting Jesus Christ as my means of
gaining God?s permanent favor and a place in Heaven ? but someone else
could get to Heaven based upon living an exemplary life.? Millions of
Americans have redefined grace to mean that God is so eager to save
people from Hell that He will change His nature and universal
principles for their individual benefit. It is astounding how many
people develop their faith according to their feelings or cultural
assumptions rather than biblical teachings.?
The California-based researcher indicated that born again Christians
are not the only ones confused about what happens after death. Many of
those who describe themselves as either atheistic or agnostic also
harbor contradictions in their thinking. ?Half of all atheists and
agnostics say that every person has a soul, that Heaven and Hell
exist, and that there is life after death. One out of every eight
atheists and agnostics even believe that accepting Jesus Christ as
savior probably makes life after death possible. These contradictions
are further evidence that many Americans adopt simplistic views of
life and the afterlife based upon ideas drawn from disparate sources,
such as movies, music and novels, without carefully considering those
beliefs. Consequently, the labels attached to people ? whether it be
?born again? or ?atheist? may not give us as much insight into the
person?s beliefs as we might assume.?
Research Methodology
The data described in this report are based on national telephone
surveys among random samples of 1000 or more adults (age 18 or older)
living within the 48 continental states conducted in September 2003,
October 2002, and October 2001. The maximum margin of sampling error
associated with each sample of 1000 adults is ±3 percentage points at
the 95% confidence level. (There are other types of error besides
sampling error that may also be present in surveys.) All of the
interviews were conducted from the Barna Research Group telephone
interviewing facility in Ventura, CA. The distribution of the survey
respondents coincided with the geographic dispersion of the U.S. adult
population according to Census Bureau estimates. Multiple callbacks to
each respondent were used to increase the probability of obtaining
data based on a reliable sample of adults.
?Born again Christians? were defined in these surveys as people who
said they have made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is
still important in their life today and who also indicated they
believe that when they die they will go to Heaven because they had
confessed their sins and had accepted Jesus Christ as their savior.
Respondents were not asked to describe themselves as ?born again.?
?Evangelicals? are a subset of born again Christians in Barna surveys.
In addition to meeting the born again criteria, evangelicals also meet
seven other conditions. Those include saying their faith is very
important in their life today; believing they have a personal
responsibility to share their religious beliefs about Christ with
non-Christians; believing that Satan exists; believing that eternal
salvation is possible only through grace, not works; believing that
Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth; contending that the Bible
is accurate in all that it teaches; and describing God as the
all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect deity who created the universe and
still rules it today. Being classified as an evangelical is not based
upon church attendance or the denominational affiliation of the church
they attend. Respondents were not asked to describe themselves as
?evangelical.?
The Barna Research Group, Ltd. is an independent marketing research
company located in southern California. Since 1984 it has been
studying cultural trends related to values, beliefs, attitudes and
behaviors. This research was funded solely by Barna Research as part
of its regular tracking of the social, religious and political state
of the nation and its churches.
If you would like to receive a bi-weekly update on the latest research
findings from the Barna Research Group, you may subscribe to this free
service at the Barna Research web site (www.barna.org) by providing
your e-mail address in the section of the home page that offers The
Barna Update.
http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/PagePressRelease.asp?PressReleaseID=150&Reference=A
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
01 Dec 2003 12:01:47 PM |
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Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Lawrence Seib wrote:
If God had any real power he would find a better way
than punishing innocent people. On the other hand,
If God was helpless or nonexistant, it would make
perfect sense.
Write God a letter of protest.
Do you think stuffing the letter in some crack in the holy wall in
Jerusalem might do some good? Or is it equivalent to writing letters
to Santa?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
01 Dec 2003 12:05:19 PM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Lawrence Seib wrote:
If God had any real power he would find a better way
than punishing innocent people. On the other hand,
If God was helpless or nonexistant, it would make
perfect sense.
Write God a letter of protest.
Do you think stuffing the letter in some crack in the holy wall in
Jerusalem might do some good? Or is it equivalent to writing letters
to Santa?
I'm sure you can find a crack on your person
to stuff the letter into.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
02 Dec 2003 07:13:41 AM |
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Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Lawrence Seib wrote:
If God had any real power he would find a better way
than punishing innocent people. On the other hand,
If God was helpless or nonexistant, it would make
perfect sense.
Write God a letter of protest.
Do you think stuffing the letter in some crack in the holy wall in
Jerusalem might do some good? Or is it equivalent to writing letters
to Santa?
I'm sure you can find a crack on your person
to stuff the letter into.
Ever written one of those letters yourself?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
04 Dec 2003 03:49:14 PM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Lawrence Seib wrote:
If God had any real power he would find a better way
than punishing innocent people. On the other hand,
If God was helpless or nonexistant, it would make
perfect sense.
Write God a letter of protest.
Do you think stuffing the letter in some crack in the holy wall in
Jerusalem might do some good? Or is it equivalent to writing letters
to Santa?
I'm sure you can find a crack on your person
to stuff the letter into.
Ever written one of those letters yourself?
No.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "Lawrence Seib" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
03 Dec 2003 04:48:15 PM |
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Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3FCB7B72.AC9BF705@worldnet.att.net>...
Lawrence Seib wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3FCAE43E.7F0C8A71@worldnet.att.net>...
Lawrence Seib wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3FC457AA.B093C116@worldnet.att.net>...
Lawrence Seib wrote:
ce Seib) wrote in alt.atheism
Numbers 14:18
The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving
iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the
guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the
children unto the third and fourth
generation.
So you agree then that the children might be completely innocent of
the parents transgressions and still be Punished for it, according to
the verse.
Are you saying that there is some [natural right] protecting
children from their father's sins?... perhaps in cloud
cuckoo land?
It is not right for God to single them out for punishment as
the verse says he does.
I see, you'd prefer the innocent to be treated
equally with the guilty... how PC of you.
snip
The moral of the story lies in the fact that irregardless
of their behavior, the sins of their fathers are visited
upon them. Now, this may ruffle your sensitive
feathers but say la v.
It does not ruffle my feathers, however it is wrong.
It is wrong to punish someone for something they did not
do.
Sadly but necessarily, moral lessons are usually
taught and learned the hard way... human
condition, y'know.
If God had any real power he would find a better way
than punishing innocent people. On the other hand,
If God was helpless or nonexistant, it would make
perfect sense.
Write God a letter of protest.
As you point out and as the ancients noticed, bad habits
can be passed down in families. Bad choices by
a parent can result in negative consequences for their
children no matter how good they are. This is merely human
nature and not the work of God, for a just God would only
punish the guilty.
Ah, I suppose it is in the nature of your own godhood to
know what a just God would or would not do... vanity.
I know that it is wrong to punish people for something
someone else did.
Sophistry.
It you who desired to discuss the topic, read your qoute below.
" You are jumbling things up. To avoid confusion, post
specific verses you have trouble with, then we can
discuss them in some order."
After a fair amount of discussion, you simply gave up
and called me a sophist without explanation.
dissapointing.
Larry
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
04 Dec 2003 03:59:39 PM |
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Lawrence Seib wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3FCB7B72.AC9BF705@worldnet.att.net>...
Lawrence Seib wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3FCAE43E.7F0C8A71@worldnet.att.net>...
Lawrence Seib wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3FC457AA.B093C116@worldnet.att.net>...
Lawrence Seib wrote:
ce Seib) wrote in alt.atheism
Numbers 14:18
The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving
iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the
guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the
children unto the third and fourth
generation.
So you agree then that the children might be completely innocent of
the parents transgressions and still be Punished for it, according to
the verse.
Are you saying that there is some [natural right] protecting
children from their father's sins?... perhaps in cloud
cuckoo land?
It is not right for God to single them out for punishment as
the verse says he does.
I see, you'd prefer the innocent to be treated
equally with the guilty... how PC of you.
snip
The moral of the story lies in the fact that irregardless
of their behavior, the sins of their fathers are visited
upon them. Now, this may ruffle your sensitive
feathers but say la v.
It does not ruffle my feathers, however it is wrong.
It is wrong to punish someone for something they did not
do.
Sadly but necessarily, moral lessons are usually
taught and learned the hard way... human
condition, y'know.
If God had any real power he would find a better way
than punishing innocent people. On the other hand,
If God was helpless or nonexistant, it would make
perfect sense.
Write God a letter of protest.
As you point out and as the ancients noticed, bad habits
can be passed down in families. Bad choices by
a parent can result in negative consequences for their
children no matter how good they are. This is merely human
nature and not the work of God, for a just God would only
punish the guilty.
Ah, I suppose it is in the nature of your own godhood to
know what a just God would or would not do... vanity.
I know that it is wrong to punish people for something
someone else did.
Sophistry.
It you who desired to discuss the topic, read your qoute below.
" You are jumbling things up. To avoid confusion, post
specific verses you have trouble with, then we can
discuss them in some order."
After a fair amount of discussion, you simply gave up
and called me a sophist without explanation.
dissapointing.
Your argument is sound in appearance only... thus, sophistry.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "socode" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
24 Nov 2003 09:18:54 AM |
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Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Absolute morality doesn't exist at your whim.
True, if "absolute morality" doesn't exist at all.
Perhaps you should prove that it does before setting
conditions upon it.
socode
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| User: "The Holy Kafir" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
24 Nov 2003 12:46:35 PM |
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"socode" <newswiththedomainsocodeperiodcom@rewrittenwithoutthispart.com>
wrote in message news:bpt7fo$3g$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Absolute morality doesn't exist at your whim.
True, if "absolute morality" doesn't exist at all.
Perhaps you should prove that it does before setting
conditions upon it.
socode
He can not do that, his circular logic thinking can not adjust to such
realities
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
24 Nov 2003 03:08:53 PM |
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socode wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Absolute morality doesn't exist at your whim.
True, if "absolute morality" doesn't exist at all.
Perhaps you should prove that it does before setting
conditions upon it.
The proof is in nature, and more specifically in the
human condition.
Reflecting on right and wrong is a consequence of
cognizance.
Humans have not the ability to choose right from wrong
correctly 100% of the time. Absolute morality is there
to make 100% correct moral choices for humans, 100%
of the time. If humans were designed to make correct
moral choices without error there would be no need for
morals, or ethics for that matter, at all.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "socode" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
25 Nov 2003 03:02:06 AM |
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Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
socode wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Absolute morality doesn't exist at your whim.
True, if "absolute morality" doesn't exist at all.
Perhaps you should prove that it does before setting
conditions upon it.
The proof is in nature, and more specifically in the
human condition.
This is not proof, but wishful thinking.
socode
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
26 Nov 2003 01:25:03 AM |
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socode wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
socode wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Absolute morality doesn't exist at your whim.
True, if "absolute morality" doesn't exist at all.
Perhaps you should prove that it does before setting
conditions upon it.
The proof is in nature, and more specifically in the
human condition.
This is not proof, but wishful thinking.
You wish.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "socode" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
26 Nov 2003 03:32:25 AM |
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Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
socode wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
socode wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Absolute morality doesn't exist at your whim.
True, if "absolute morality" doesn't exist at all.
Perhaps you should prove that it does before setting
conditions upon it.
The proof is in nature, and more specifically in the
human condition.
This is not proof, but wishful thinking.
You wish.
You lie. If you wishes could translate into proof, you
would give it.
So do so or shut up.
socode
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
26 Nov 2003 03:57:43 AM |
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socode wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
socode wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
socode wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Absolute morality doesn't exist at your whim.
True, if "absolute morality" doesn't exist at all.
Perhaps you should prove that it does before setting
conditions upon it.
The proof is in nature, and more specifically in the
human condition.
This is not proof, but wishful thinking.
You wish.
You lie. If you wishes could translate into proof, you
would give it.
So do so or shut up.
Waste my time on you?... wishful thinking.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "socode" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
26 Nov 2003 08:27:02 AM |
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Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
socode wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
socode wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
socode wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Absolute morality doesn't exist at your whim.
True, if "absolute morality" doesn't exist at all.
Perhaps you should prove that it does before setting
conditions upon it.
The proof is in nature, and more specifically in the
human condition.
This is not proof, but wishful thinking.
You wish.
You lie. If you wishes could translate into proof, you
would give it.
So do so or shut up.
Waste my time on you?... wishful thinking.
Since you already have, you lose.
socode
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
20 Nov 2003 01:06:52 PM |
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Lawrence Seib wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3FBAAC64.FB7D7295@worldnet.att.net>...
Lawrence Seib wrote:
snipage
I don't personally like the idea of being called a liar because my
father might have been a liar, nor the idea of being punished for
something he might've done. Maybe you're different than me.
I don't like the idea either but there's nothing I can do
about the way human nature works.
He was talking about God! The Bible says GOD punishes the
children for the sins of their fathers to even the fourth
generation. Hell he cursed some lineages for as long
as they continue.
If you think this is right, then you should try to incorporate
it into the legal system. Of coarse most people
realize this is immoral and thus it is wrong for God too.
You are jumbling things up. To avoid confusion, post
specific verses you have trouble with, then we can
discuss them in some order.
Numbers 14:18
The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving
iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the
guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the
children unto the third and fourth
generation.
5:27
The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy
seed for ever. And he went out from his presence a leper as white as
snow.
Where is the immorality in the verses?... be as specific as you can.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "Lawrence Seib" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
21 Nov 2003 11:19:20 AM |
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Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3FBD115A.5F4A0611@worldnet.att.net>...
Lawrence Seib wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3FBAAC64.FB7D7295@worldnet.att.net>...
You are jumbling things up. To avoid confusion, post
specific verses you have trouble with, then we can
discuss them in some order.
Numbers 14:18
The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving
iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the
guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the
children unto the third and fourth
generation.
5:27
The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy
seed for ever. And he went out from his presence a leper as white as
snow.
Where is the immorality in the verses?... be as specific as you can.
I think is wrong to punish someone for something
they did not do. Since the foruth generation is
not even around when the sin is commited, they
certainly are not responsible for it.
Yet God punishes innocent great grand children.
Larry
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
14 Nov 2003 10:53:23 AM |
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Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
What is there about the Bible that *isn't* from anybody else?
Humans are incapable of conceiving the complete Absolute Morals
found only in the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy.
Which is what again? There is nothing unique to the Pentateuch. It's all
been "found" to be derived from earlier cultural sources.
There is no source of [consistent] Absolute Morals in any
source prior to the Five Books of Moses.
What about the Code of Hammurabi?
The operative word is "consistent".
That leaves out the Pentateuch.
Citations?... of course not.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
14 Nov 2003 11:28:29 AM |
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Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
What is there about the Bible that *isn't* from anybody else?
Humans are incapable of conceiving the complete Absolute Morals
found only in the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy.
Which is what again? There is nothing unique to the Pentateuch. It's all
been "found" to be derived from earlier cultural sources.
There is no source of [consistent] Absolute Morals in any
source prior to the Five Books of Moses.
What about the Code of Hammurabi?
The operative word is "consistent".
That leaves out the Pentateuch.
Citations?... of course not.
Is it all right to steal? Everybody knows the 10C's says "Thou Shall Not
Steal"
Exodus 12:35
And the children of Israel did according to the word of Moses; and
they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and
raiment:
12:36
And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians,
so that they lent unto them such things as they required. And they
spoiled the Egyptians.
****
Not only are the children of Israel stealing, but they're being aided
and abetted by God himself.
--
Fred Stone
Illegitimi non Carborundum
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
14 Nov 2003 04:48:59 PM |
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Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
What is there about the Bible that *isn't* from anybody else?
Humans are incapable of conceiving the complete Absolute Morals
found only in the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy.
Which is what again? There is nothing unique to the Pentateuch. It's all
been "found" to be derived from earlier cultural sources.
There is no source of [consistent] Absolute Morals in any
source prior to the Five Books of Moses.
What about the Code of Hammurabi?
The operative word is "consistent".
That leaves out the Pentateuch.
Citations?... of course not.
Is it all right to steal? Everybody knows the 10C's says "Thou Shall Not
Steal"
Exodus 12:35
And the children of Israel did according to the word of Moses; and
they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and
raiment:
12:36
And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians,
so that they lent unto them such things as they required. And they
spoiled the Egyptians.
****
Not only are the children of Israel stealing, but they're being aided
and abetted by God himself.
A more accurate translation:
Exodus 12:
35 And the children of Israel did according to the word
of Moses; and they asked of the Egyptians jewels of
silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment.
36 And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight
of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they
asked. And they despoiled the Egyptians.
The Egyptians were made poorer but not through
stealing. The Hebrews [asked] and the Egyptians
complied with due compensation for the years they
held the Hebrews in bondage.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
14 Nov 2003 04:57:52 PM |
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Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
What is there about the Bible that *isn't* from anybody else?
Humans are incapable of conceiving the complete Absolute Morals
found only in the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy.
Which is what again? There is nothing unique to the Pentateuch. It's all
been "found" to be derived from earlier cultural sources.
There is no source of [consistent] Absolute Morals in any
source prior to the Five Books of Moses.
What about the Code of Hammurabi?
The operative word is "consistent".
That leaves out the Pentateuch.
Citations?... of course not.
Is it all right to steal? Everybody knows the 10C's says "Thou Shall Not
Steal"
Exodus 12:35
And the children of Israel did according to the word of Moses; and
they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and
raiment:
12:36
And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians,
so that they lent unto them such things as they required. And they
spoiled the Egyptians.
****
Not only are the children of Israel stealing, but they're being aided
and abetted by God himself.
A more accurate translation:
Exodus 12:
35 And the children of Israel did according to the word
of Moses; and they asked of the Egyptians jewels of
silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment.
36 And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight
of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they
asked. And they despoiled the Egyptians.
The Egyptians were made poorer but not through
stealing. The Hebrews [asked] and the Egyptians
complied with due compensation for the years they
held the Hebrews in bondage.
Buy a clue: "despoiled" means "robbed".
--
Fred Stone
Illegitimi non Carborundum
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
16 Nov 2003 05:17:27 PM |
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Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Elroy Willis wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
What is there about the Bible that *isn't* from anybody else?
Humans are incapable of conceiving the complete Absolute Morals
found only in the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy.
Which is what again? There is nothing unique to the Pentateuch. It's all
been "found" to be derived from earlier cultural sources.
There is no source of [consistent] Absolute Morals in any
source prior to the Five Books of Moses.
What about the Code of Hammurabi?
The operative word is "consistent".
That leaves out the Pentateuch.
Citations?... of course not.
Is it all right to steal? Everybody knows the 10C's says "Thou Shall Not
Steal"
Exodus 12:35
And the children of Israel did according to the word of Moses; and
they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and
raiment:
12:36
And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians,
so that they lent unto them such things as they required. And they
spoiled the Egyptians.
****
Not only are the children of Israel stealing, but they're being aided
and abetted by God himself.
A more accurate translation:
Exodus 12:
35 And the children of Israel did according to the word
of Moses; and they asked of the Egyptians jewels of
silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment.
36 And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight
of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they
asked. And they despoiled the Egyptians.
The Egyptians were made poorer but not through
stealing. The Hebrews [asked] and the Egyptians
complied with due compensation for the years they
held the Hebrews in bondage.
Buy a clue: "despoiled" means "robbed".
Learn how to read. There was no stealing. The egyptians
gave of their own accord, and left themselves despoiled.
--
Fred Stone
Illegitimi non Carborundum
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 12:47:49 PM |
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Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
What is there about the Bible that *isn't* from anybody else?
Humans are incapable of conceiving the complete Absolute Morals
found only in the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy.
Which is what again? There is nothing unique to the Pentateuch. It's all
been "found" to be derived from earlier cultural sources.
There is no source of [consistent] Absolute Morals in any
source prior to the Five Books of Moses.
The whole of the Five Books of Moses is derivative. They're not the
source of anything.
--
Fred Stone
Illegitimi non Carborundum
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
13 Nov 2003 10:39:37 PM |
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Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
What is there about the Bible that *isn't* from anybody else?
Humans are incapable of conceiving the complete Absolute Morals
found only in the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy.
Which is what again? There is nothing unique to the Pentateuch. It's all
been "found" to be derived from earlier cultural sources.
There is no source of [consistent] Absolute Morals in any
source prior to the Five Books of Moses.
The whole of the Five Books of Moses is derivative. They're not the
source of anything.
And, the unimpeachable authority from whence you
derive this nonsense.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
14 Nov 2003 06:14:50 AM |
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Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
What is there about the Bible that *isn't* from anybody else?
Humans are incapable of conceiving the complete Absolute Morals
found only in the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy.
Which is what again? There is nothing unique to the Pentateuch. It's all
been "found" to be derived from earlier cultural sources.
There is no source of [consistent] Absolute Morals in any
source prior to the Five Books of Moses.
The whole of the Five Books of Moses is derivative. They're not the
source of anything.
And, the unimpeachable authority from whence you
derive this nonsense.
The existence of material from prior cultures that includes all of the
material in the Bible.
--
Fred Stone
Illegitimi non Carborundum
.
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
14 Nov 2003 10:52:12 AM |
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Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
What is there about the Bible that *isn't* from anybody else?
Humans are incapable of conceiving the complete Absolute Morals
found only in the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy.
Which is what again? There is nothing unique to the Pentateuch. It's all
been "found" to be derived from earlier cultural sources.
There is no source of [consistent] Absolute Morals in any
source prior to the Five Books of Moses.
The whole of the Five Books of Moses is derivative. They're not the
source of anything.
And, the unimpeachable authority from whence you
derive this nonsense.
The existence of material from prior cultures that includes all of the
material in the Bible.
That's too absurd to merit a response.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
14 Nov 2003 11:16:49 AM |
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Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
What is there about the Bible that *isn't* from anybody else?
Humans are incapable of conceiving the complete Absolute Morals
found only in the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy.
Which is what again? There is nothing unique to the Pentateuch. It's all
been "found" to be derived from earlier cultural sources.
There is no source of [consistent] Absolute Morals in any
source prior to the Five Books of Moses.
The whole of the Five Books of Moses is derivative. They're not the
source of anything.
And, the unimpeachable authority from whence you
derive this nonsense.
The existence of material from prior cultures that includes all of the
material in the Bible.
That's too absurd to merit a response.
What's too absurd about the truth?
--
Fred Stone
Illegitimi non Carborundum
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
14 Nov 2003 04:30:58 PM |
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Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
What is there about the Bible that *isn't* from anybody else?
Humans are incapable of conceiving the complete Absolute Morals
found only in the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy.
Which is what again? There is nothing unique to the Pentateuch. It's all
been "found" to be derived from earlier cultural sources.
There is no source of [consistent] Absolute Morals in any
source prior to the Five Books of Moses.
The whole of the Five Books of Moses is derivative. They're not the
source of anything.
And, the unimpeachable authority from whence you
derive this nonsense.
The existence of material from prior cultures that includes all of the
material in the Bible.
That's too absurd to merit a response.
What's too absurd about the truth?
When you turn falsehood into truth it is absurd.
No culture prior to the Sinaitic Covenant had a system of
Absolute Morality... rather, they were all indisputably
idolatrous.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
14 Nov 2003 04:55:24 PM |
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Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
What is there about the Bible that *isn't* from anybody else?
Humans are incapable of conceiving the complete Absolute Morals
found only in the Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy.
Which is what again? There is nothing unique to the Pentateuch. It's all
been "found" to be derived from earlier cultural sources.
There is no source of [consistent] Absolute Morals in any
source prior to the Five Books of Moses.
The whole of the Five Books of Moses is derivative. They're not the
source of anything.
And, the unimpeachable authority from whence you
derive this nonsense.
The existence of material from prior cultures that includes all of the
material in the Bible.
That's too absurd to merit a response.
What's too absurd about the truth?
When you turn falsehood into truth it is absurd.
Indeed. Why don't you take your own advice?
No culture prior to the Sinaitic Covenant had a system of
Absolute Morality... rather, they were all indisputably
idolatrous.
By whose definition? The Bible? And so we close the circle.
ps, the Bible doesn't have any Absolute Morality either.
--
Fred Stone
Illegitimi non Carborundum
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
16 Nov 2003 05:14:52 PM |
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Fred Stone wrote:
ps, the Bible doesn't have any Absolute Morality either.
Prove it.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "The Holy Kafir" |
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| Title: Re: Let's take a poll here... |
17 Nov 2003 06:20:15 PM |
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"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3FB80575.B9C35D93@worldnet.att.net...
Fred Stone wrote:
ps, the Bible doesn't have any Absolute Morality either.
Prove it.
He doesn't have to prove it.
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