Half of American atheists believe in life after death



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Happy Guy"
Date: 30 Oct 2003 01:51:17 AM
Object: Half of American atheists believe in life after death
Americans Describe Their Views About Life After Death
October 21, 2003

(Ventura, CA) Despite the constant flux in many dimensions of
Americans? lives, a new study from the Barna Research Group of
Ventura, California, shows that most people have retained surprisingly
traditional views about life after death. Although the lifestyles,
values, and self-perceptions of most adults have undergone significant
change ? and millions of Americans have embraced many elements of a
postmodern worldview ? the vast majority continues to believe that
there is life after death, that everyone has a soul, and that Heaven
and Hell exist. However, more than 50 million adults are uncertain
regarding their personal eternal fate.
The Afterlife
Belief in life after death, like the existence of God, is widely
embraced: 8 out of 10 Americans (81%) believe in an afterlife of some
sort. Another 9% said life after death may exist, but they were not
certain. Just one out of every ten adults (10%) contend that there is
no form of life after one dies on earth.
Moreover, a large majority of Americans (79%) agreed with the
statement ?every person has a soul that will live forever, either in
God?s presence or absence.?
Evangelicals, born again Christians, and Elders (ages 58 and older)
were the most likely segments to embrace the idea of life after death.
Those least likely to believe in life after death were Hispanics,
Busters (ages 20-38), residents of the West, atheists and agnostics,
those associated with a faith other than Christianity, and unchurched
adults ? although more than two-thirds of each of these groups accept
the existence of an afterlife.
Heaven and Hell
The survey also explored peoples? views of Heaven and Hell. In all,
76% believe that Heaven exists, while nearly the same proportion said
that there is such a thing as Hell (71%). Respondents were given
various descriptions of Heaven and asked to choose the statement that
best fits their belief about Heaven. Those who believe in Heaven were
divided between describing Heaven as ?a state of eternal existence in
God?s presence? (46%) and those who said it is ?an actual place of
rest and reward where souls go after death? (30%). Other Americans
claimed that Heaven is just ?symbolic? (14%), that there is no such
thing as life after death (5%), or that they are not sure (5%).
While there is no dominant view of Hell, two particular perspectives
are popular. Four out of ten adults believe that Hell is ?a state of
eternal separation from God?s presence? (39%) and one-third (32%) says
it is ?an actual place of torment and suffering where people?s souls
go after death.? A third perspective that one in eight adults believe
is that ?Hell is just a symbol of an unknown bad outcome after death?
(13%). Other respondents were ?not sure? or said they that they do not
believe in an afterlife (16%).
Destinations
Most Americans do not expect to experience Hell first-hand: just
one-half of 1% expect to go to Hell upon their death. Nearly
two-thirds of Americans (64%) believe they will go to Heaven. One in
20 adults (5%) claim they will come back as another life form, while
the same proportion (5%) contend they will simply cease to exist.
Even though most Americans believe in life after death and the
existence of the soul, not everyone is clear about their own ultimate
destination. One in every four adults (24%) admitted that they have
?no idea? what will happen after they die. Those who felt their
eternal future is undefined were most likely to be Hispanics, singles,
men, atheists and agnostics, residents of the West, and 18- and
19-year-olds (i.e., young adults who also happen to be the first
members of the Mosaic generation to enter adulthood).
Among those who expect to go to Heaven, there were differences in how
they anticipate such an end would be attained. Nearly half of those
who say they are Heaven bound (43%) believe they will go to Heaven
because they have ?confessed their sins and accepted Jesus Christ as
their savior.? Others felt they will get to Heaven because ?they have
tried to obey the 10 Commandments? (15%) or because ?they are
basically a good person? (15%). Another 6% believed their entrance to
Heaven would be based upon the fact that ?God loves all people and
will not let them perish.?
One of the intriguing findings from the research is that education and
income are negatively correlated with belief in Heaven and Hell. In
other words, the more education a person gets or the more income they
earn, the less likely they are to believe that Heaven or Hell exists.
While most high-income households and college graduates maintain
belief in Heaven and Hell, the finding reinforces the popular notion ?
and, indeed, Jesus? teaching ? that people of economic means and those
with considerable education struggle to embrace biblical teachings on
such matters.
The New Views
Although a comparison of current beliefs to those held over the past
two decades shows that Americans? views about life after death have
been relatively stable over time, new perceptions about the hereafter
are being grafted into the traditional perspectives. For instance,
nearly 1 in 5 adults (18%) now contends that people are reincarnated
after death. And one-third of Americans (34%) believe that it is
possible to communicate with others after their death. As evidence
that this belief is gaining traction, consider that nearly half of all
Busters (48%) embrace the concept of communication with the dead,
while just 35% of Boomers (39-57) and 15% of Elders (ages 58+) do so.
Contradictions Reign
George Barna, the president of the company that conducted the
research, pointed out that ?Americans? willingness to embrace beliefs
that are logically contradictory and their preference for blending
different faith views together create unorthodox religious
viewpoints.? For instance, he noted that among born again Christians -
who believe that they will experience eternal existence in Heaven
solely because they have confessed their sins to God and are depending
upon Jesus Christ to spare them from eternal punishment or rejection -
10% believe that people are reincarnated after death, 29% claim it is
possible to communicate with the dead, and 50% contend that a person
can earn salvation based upon good works.
?Many committed born again Christians believe that people have
multiple options for gaining entry to Heaven. They are saying, in
essence, ?Personally, I am trusting Jesus Christ as my means of
gaining God?s permanent favor and a place in Heaven ? but someone else
could get to Heaven based upon living an exemplary life.? Millions of
Americans have redefined grace to mean that God is so eager to save
people from Hell that He will change His nature and universal
principles for their individual benefit. It is astounding how many
people develop their faith according to their feelings or cultural
assumptions rather than biblical teachings.?
The California-based researcher indicated that born again Christians
are not the only ones confused about what happens after death. Many of
those who describe themselves as either atheistic or agnostic also
harbor contradictions in their thinking. ?Half of all atheists and
agnostics say that every person has a soul, that Heaven and Hell
exist, and that there is life after death. One out of every eight
atheists and agnostics even believe that accepting Jesus Christ as
savior probably makes life after death possible. These contradictions
are further evidence that many Americans adopt simplistic views of
life and the afterlife based upon ideas drawn from disparate sources,
such as movies, music and novels, without carefully considering those
beliefs. Consequently, the labels attached to people ? whether it be
?born again? or ?atheist? may not give us as much insight into the
person?s beliefs as we might assume.?
Research Methodology
The data described in this report are based on national telephone
surveys among random samples of 1000 or more adults (age 18 or older)
living within the 48 continental states conducted in September 2003,
October 2002, and October 2001. The maximum margin of sampling error
associated with each sample of 1000 adults is ±3 percentage points at
the 95% confidence level. (There are other types of error besides
sampling error that may also be present in surveys.) All of the
interviews were conducted from the Barna Research Group telephone
interviewing facility in Ventura, CA. The distribution of the survey
respondents coincided with the geographic dispersion of the U.S. adult
population according to Census Bureau estimates. Multiple callbacks to
each respondent were used to increase the probability of obtaining
data based on a reliable sample of adults.
?Born again Christians? were defined in these surveys as people who
said they have made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is
still important in their life today and who also indicated they
believe that when they die they will go to Heaven because they had
confessed their sins and had accepted Jesus Christ as their savior.
Respondents were not asked to describe themselves as ?born again.?
?Evangelicals? are a subset of born again Christians in Barna surveys.
In addition to meeting the born again criteria, evangelicals also meet
seven other conditions. Those include saying their faith is very
important in their life today; believing they have a personal
responsibility to share their religious beliefs about Christ with
non-Christians; believing that Satan exists; believing that eternal
salvation is possible only through grace, not works; believing that
Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth; contending that the Bible
is accurate in all that it teaches; and describing God as the
all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect deity who created the universe and
still rules it today. Being classified as an evangelical is not based
upon church attendance or the denominational affiliation of the church
they attend. Respondents were not asked to describe themselves as
?evangelical.?
The Barna Research Group, Ltd. is an independent marketing research
company located in southern California. Since 1984 it has been
studying cultural trends related to values, beliefs, attitudes and
behaviors. This research was funded solely by Barna Research as part
of its regular tracking of the social, religious and political state
of the nation and its churches.
If you would like to receive a bi-weekly update on the latest research
findings from the Barna Research Group, you may subscribe to this free
service at the Barna Research web site (www.barna.org) by providing
your e-mail address in the section of the home page that offers The
Barna Update.

http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/PagePressRelease.asp?PressReleaseID=150&Reference=A
.

User: "Kermit"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 30 Oct 2003 07:00:40 AM
(Happy Guy) wrote in message news:<c0abe185.0310292351.75601c9@posting.google.com>...

Americans Describe Their Views About Life After Death


October 21, 2003



(Ventura, CA) Despite the constant flux in many dimensions of
Americans? lives, a new study from the Barna Research Group of
Ventura, California, shows that most people have retained surprisingly
traditional views about life after death. Although the lifestyles,
values, and self-perceptions of most adults have undergone significant
change ? and millions of Americans have embraced many elements of a
postmodern worldview ? the vast majority continues to believe that
there is life after death, that everyone has a soul, and that Heaven
and Hell exist. However, more than 50 million adults are uncertain
regarding their personal eternal fate.

The Afterlife
Belief in life after death, like the existence of God, is widely
embraced: 8 out of 10 Americans (81%) believe in an afterlife of some
sort. Another 9% said life after death may exist, but they were not
certain. Just one out of every ten adults (10%) contend that there is
no form of life after one dies on earth.

Moreover, a large majority of Americans (79%) agreed with the
statement ?every person has a soul that will live forever, either in
God?s presence or absence.?

Evangelicals, born again Christians, and Elders (ages 58 and older)
were the most likely segments to embrace the idea of life after death.
Those least likely to believe in life after death were Hispanics,
Busters (ages 20-38), residents of the West, atheists and agnostics,
those associated with a faith other than Christianity, and unchurched
adults ? although more than two-thirds of each of these groups accept
the existence of an afterlife.

Heaven and Hell
The survey also explored peoples? views of Heaven and Hell. In all,
76% believe that Heaven exists, while nearly the same proportion said
that there is such a thing as Hell (71%). Respondents were given
various descriptions of Heaven and asked to choose the statement that
best fits their belief about Heaven. Those who believe in Heaven were
divided between describing Heaven as ?a state of eternal existence in
God?s presence? (46%) and those who said it is ?an actual place of
rest and reward where souls go after death? (30%). Other Americans
claimed that Heaven is just ?symbolic? (14%), that there is no such
thing as life after death (5%), or that they are not sure (5%).

While there is no dominant view of Hell, two particular perspectives
are popular. Four out of ten adults believe that Hell is ?a state of
eternal separation from God?s presence? (39%) and one-third (32%) says
it is ?an actual place of torment and suffering where people?s souls
go after death.? A third perspective that one in eight adults believe
is that ?Hell is just a symbol of an unknown bad outcome after death?
(13%). Other respondents were ?not sure? or said they that they do not
believe in an afterlife (16%).

Destinations
Most Americans do not expect to experience Hell first-hand: just
one-half of 1% expect to go to Hell upon their death. Nearly
two-thirds of Americans (64%) believe they will go to Heaven. One in
20 adults (5%) claim they will come back as another life form, while
the same proportion (5%) contend they will simply cease to exist.

Even though most Americans believe in life after death and the
existence of the soul, not everyone is clear about their own ultimate
destination. One in every four adults (24%) admitted that they have
?no idea? what will happen after they die. Those who felt their
eternal future is undefined were most likely to be Hispanics, singles,
men, atheists and agnostics, residents of the West, and 18- and
19-year-olds (i.e., young adults who also happen to be the first
members of the Mosaic generation to enter adulthood).

Among those who expect to go to Heaven, there were differences in how
they anticipate such an end would be attained. Nearly half of those
who say they are Heaven bound (43%) believe they will go to Heaven
because they have ?confessed their sins and accepted Jesus Christ as
their savior.? Others felt they will get to Heaven because ?they have
tried to obey the 10 Commandments? (15%) or because ?they are
basically a good person? (15%). Another 6% believed their entrance to
Heaven would be based upon the fact that ?God loves all people and
will not let them perish.?

One of the intriguing findings from the research is that education and
income are negatively correlated with belief in Heaven and Hell. In
other words, the more education a person gets or the more income they
earn, the less likely they are to believe that Heaven or Hell exists.
While most high-income households and college graduates maintain
belief in Heaven and Hell, the finding reinforces the popular notion ?
and, indeed, Jesus? teaching ? that people of economic means and those
with considerable education struggle to embrace biblical teachings on
such matters.

The New Views
Although a comparison of current beliefs to those held over the past
two decades shows that Americans? views about life after death have
been relatively stable over time, new perceptions about the hereafter
are being grafted into the traditional perspectives. For instance,
nearly 1 in 5 adults (18%) now contends that people are reincarnated
after death. And one-third of Americans (34%) believe that it is
possible to communicate with others after their death. As evidence
that this belief is gaining traction, consider that nearly half of all
Busters (48%) embrace the concept of communication with the dead,
while just 35% of Boomers (39-57) and 15% of Elders (ages 58+) do so.

Contradictions Reign
George Barna, the president of the company that conducted the
research, pointed out that ?Americans? willingness to embrace beliefs
that are logically contradictory and their preference for blending
different faith views together create unorthodox religious
viewpoints.? For instance, he noted that among born again Christians -
who believe that they will experience eternal existence in Heaven
solely because they have confessed their sins to God and are depending
upon Jesus Christ to spare them from eternal punishment or rejection -
10% believe that people are reincarnated after death, 29% claim it is
possible to communicate with the dead, and 50% contend that a person
can earn salvation based upon good works.

?Many committed born again Christians believe that people have
multiple options for gaining entry to Heaven. They are saying, in
essence, ?Personally, I am trusting Jesus Christ as my means of
gaining God?s permanent favor and a place in Heaven ? but someone else
could get to Heaven based upon living an exemplary life.? Millions of
Americans have redefined grace to mean that God is so eager to save
people from Hell that He will change His nature and universal
principles for their individual benefit. It is astounding how many
people develop their faith according to their feelings or cultural
assumptions rather than biblical teachings.?

The California-based researcher indicated that born again Christians
are not the only ones confused about what happens after death. Many of
those who describe themselves as either atheistic or agnostic also
harbor contradictions in their thinking. ?Half of all atheists and
agnostics say that every person has a soul, that Heaven and Hell
exist, and that there is life after death. One out of every eight
atheists and agnostics even believe that accepting Jesus Christ as
savior probably makes life after death possible. These contradictions
are further evidence that many Americans adopt simplistic views of
life and the afterlife based upon ideas drawn from disparate sources,
such as movies, music and novels, without carefully considering those
beliefs. Consequently, the labels attached to people ? whether it be
?born again? or ?atheist? may not give us as much insight into the
person?s beliefs as we might assume.?

Research Methodology
The data described in this report are based on national telephone
surveys among random samples of 1000 or more adults (age 18 or older)
living within the 48 continental states conducted in September 2003,
October 2002, and October 2001. The maximum margin of sampling error
associated with each sample of 1000 adults is ±3 percentage points at
the 95% confidence level. (There are other types of error besides
sampling error that may also be present in surveys.) All of the
interviews were conducted from the Barna Research Group telephone
interviewing facility in Ventura, CA. The distribution of the survey
respondents coincided with the geographic dispersion of the U.S. adult
population according to Census Bureau estimates. Multiple callbacks to
each respondent were used to increase the probability of obtaining
data based on a reliable sample of adults.

?Born again Christians? were defined in these surveys as people who
said they have made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is
still important in their life today and who also indicated they
believe that when they die they will go to Heaven because they had
confessed their sins and had accepted Jesus Christ as their savior.
Respondents were not asked to describe themselves as ?born again.?

?Evangelicals? are a subset of born again Christians in Barna surveys.
In addition to meeting the born again criteria, evangelicals also meet
seven other conditions. Those include saying their faith is very
important in their life today; believing they have a personal
responsibility to share their religious beliefs about Christ with
non-Christians; believing that Satan exists; believing that eternal
salvation is possible only through grace, not works; believing that
Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth; contending that the Bible
is accurate in all that it teaches; and describing God as the
all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect deity who created the universe and
still rules it today. Being classified as an evangelical is not based
upon church attendance or the denominational affiliation of the church
they attend. Respondents were not asked to describe themselves as
?evangelical.?


The Barna Research Group, Ltd. is an independent marketing research
company located in southern California. Since 1984 it has been
studying cultural trends related to values, beliefs, attitudes and
behaviors. This research was funded solely by Barna Research as part
of its regular tracking of the social, religious and political state
of the nation and its churches.

If you would like to receive a bi-weekly update on the latest research
findings from the Barna Research Group, you may subscribe to this free
service at the Barna Research web site (www.barna.org) by providing
your e-mail address in the section of the home page that offers The
Barna Update.


http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/PagePressRelease.asp?PressReleaseID=150&Reference=A

I'm going to guess that most people are using the word "agnostic" to
mean "those that have not decided whether there is a god". Many of
these undecideds will still be in a serious state of wishful thinking,
but see no reason to commit to any particular religion. "It would be
nice to live forever, but I hope there's no God, because..."
Or, most people are just idiots.
I guess I could accept either one as an explanation.
This survey will give me pause when I see statistics on how many
people are said to be atheist/agnostic in various demographic charts.
Waitaminnut... their dwelling on people who "get biblical teachings
wrong" threw up a red flag. <google> This is a *Christian survey
group. Can their methodology be trusted?
http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/home.asp
How were the questions worded? Is this a truly respresentative group?
How many people do they claim are atheist/agnostic?
They don't seem to have either definitions or questions on line...
--- Kermit
.

User: "jwk"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 30 Oct 2003 07:35:52 AM
(Happy Guy) wrote in message news:<c0abe185.0310292351.75601c9@posting.google.com>...

Americans Describe Their Views About Life After Death
Busters (ages 20-38), residents of the West, atheists and agnostics,
those associated with a faith other than Christianity, and unchurched
adults ? although more than two-thirds of each of these groups accept
the existence of an afterlife.

"Any consideration of Barna's claims, though, should take into account
the fact that some surveys conducted by the firm may involve inflated
claims, methodological flaws or other problems."
"In March, for instance, Barna announced the results of a "study"
suggesting that huge numbers of Americans listened to Christian radio
programming. The findings were at odds with numerous other surveys and
ratings, including Duncan's American Radio report."
"Barna's firm does marketing research for the Billy Graham Ministry,
The Navigators, Bill Bright's Campus Crusade for Christ and several
other major religious groups."
Just like in the 1970's when it was revealed that the same political
pollsters where giving conflicting results depending upon which
candidate paid for the research. These guys work for evangelists and
their results are heavily slanted towards the beliefs of evangelists.
Atheists do not believe in gods, afterlife, heaven or other
mumbo-jumbo, by definition.
jwk
BAAWA
.
User: "bob young"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 30 Oct 2003 11:11:02 PM
jwk wrote:

happyguy746@hotmail.com (Happy Guy) wrote in message news:<c0abe185.0310292351.75601c9@posting.google.com>...

Americans Describe Their Views About Life After Death


Busters (ages 20-38), residents of the West, atheists and agnostics,
those associated with a faith other than Christianity, and unchurched
adults ? although more than two-thirds of each of these groups accept
the existence of an afterlife.


"Any consideration of Barna's claims, though, should take into account
the fact that some surveys conducted by the firm may involve inflated
claims, methodological flaws or other problems."

"In March, for instance, Barna announced the results of a "study"
suggesting that huge numbers of Americans listened to Christian radio
programming. The findings were at odds with numerous other surveys and
ratings, including Duncan's American Radio report."

"Barna's firm does marketing research for the Billy Graham Ministry,
The Navigators, Bill Bright's Campus Crusade for Christ and several
other major religious groups."

Just like in the 1970's when it was revealed that the same political
pollsters where giving conflicting results depending upon which
candidate paid for the research. These guys work for evangelists and
their results are heavily slanted towards the beliefs of evangelists.
Atheists do not believe in gods, afterlife, heaven or other
mumbo-jumbo, by definition.

jwk
BAAWA

....in a survey of the british Clergy last year over 30% said they did not believe in the resurection
.

User: "Roy Jose Lorr"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 03 Nov 2003 10:47:20 PM
jwk wrote:

happyguy746@hotmail.com (Happy Guy) wrote in message news:<c0abe185.0310292351.75601c9@posting.google.com>...

Americans Describe Their Views About Life After Death


Busters (ages 20-38), residents of the West, atheists and agnostics,
those associated with a faith other than Christianity, and unchurched
adults ? although more than two-thirds of each of these groups accept
the existence of an afterlife.


"Any consideration of Barna's claims, though, should take into account
the fact that some surveys conducted by the firm may involve inflated
claims, methodological flaws or other problems."

"In March, for instance, Barna announced the results of a "study"
suggesting that huge numbers of Americans listened to Christian radio
programming. The findings were at odds with numerous other surveys and
ratings, including Duncan's American Radio report."

"Barna's firm does marketing research for the Billy Graham Ministry,
The Navigators, Bill Bright's Campus Crusade for Christ and several
other major religious groups."

Just like in the 1970's when it was revealed that the same political
pollsters where giving conflicting results depending upon which
candidate paid for the research. These guys work for evangelists and
their results are heavily slanted towards the beliefs of evangelists.
Atheists do not believe in gods, afterlife, heaven or other
mumbo-jumbo, by definition.

The atheist religion preaches "science" as "savior".
Atheists silently pray to a science that will defeat
death and resuscitate the dead from
reconstructed DNA.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
User: "I Lost Three Claytons In Three Weeks With Atheislim!"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 04 Nov 2003 12:47:55 AM
"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3FA72FF6.9553BD15@worldnet.att.net...



The atheist religion preaches "science" as "savior".
Atheists silently pray to a science that will defeat
death and resuscitate the dead from
reconstructed DNA.

Well well...look who's back.
Ok...who dug up the idiotic sack of ***** we buried two years ago?
How many different identities you going to spin your ***** under this time?

--

The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.


.
User: "Roy Jose Lorr"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 04 Nov 2003 02:15:11 AM
"I Lost Three Claytons In Three Weeks With Atheislim!" wrote:

"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3FA72FF6.9553BD15@worldnet.att.net...



The atheist religion preaches "science" as "savior".
Atheists silently pray to a science that will defeat
death and resuscitate the dead from
reconstructed DNA.


Well well...look who's back.

Never left.



Ok...who dug up the idiotic sack of ***** we buried two years ago?

My condolences. I'd no idea you'd interred a loved one.



How many different identities you going to spin your ***** under this time?

Idiot, I've had one name and one name only.
You on the other hand have one of the longest names I've yet to see
on USENET: "I Lost Three Claytons In Three Weeks With Atheislim!.". LOL
I especially like your choice of last name: "Atheislim!". ROTFBAGL
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.


User: "Enkidu"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 03 Nov 2003 10:58:36 PM
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"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3FA72FF6.9553BD15@worldnet.att.net...


The atheist religion preaches "science" as "savior".

There is no "savior".

Atheists silently pray to a science that will defeat
death and resuscitate the dead from
reconstructed DNA.

No, we don't. I feel safe saying that not one atheist who frequents
alt.atheism believes this. Roy, you are an idiot who can't understand our
position, so you create something in your tiny little mind that you can
understand, then try to pass it off as our view.
You are arguing with yourself, and you lose.
Enkidu
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.
User: "Booser"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 05 Nov 2003 10:30:21 AM
"Enkidu" <Enkidu@spam.me.not> wrote in message news:<AlGpb.1561$Zb7.1465@fed1read01>...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3FA72FF6.9553BD15@worldnet.att.net...


The atheist religion preaches "science" as "savior".


There is no "savior".

Atheists silently pray to a science that will defeat
death and resuscitate the dead from
reconstructed DNA.


No, we don't. I feel safe saying that not one atheist who frequents
alt.atheism believes this. Roy, you are an idiot who can't understand our
position, so you create something in your tiny little mind that you can
understand, then try to pass it off as our view.

You are arguing with yourself, and you lose.

Poor Roy. Listening to too much Christian music has fried his brain.
.

User: "Roy Jose Lorr"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 03 Nov 2003 11:19:15 PM
Enkidu wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3FA72FF6.9553BD15@worldnet.att.net...


The atheist religion preaches "science" as "savior".


There is no "savior".

You have this on unimpeachable authority?... LOL



Atheists silently pray to a science that will defeat
death and resuscitate the dead from
reconstructed DNA.


No, we don't. I feel safe saying that not one atheist who frequents
alt.atheism believes this.

You [all] believe it.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
User: "Therion Ware"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 04 Nov 2003 08:08:41 AM
On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 05:19:15 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism



Enkidu wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3FA72FF6.9553BD15@worldnet.att.net...


The atheist religion preaches "science" as "savior".


There is no "savior".


You have this on unimpeachable authority?... LOL



Atheists silently pray to a science that will defeat
death and resuscitate the dead from
reconstructed DNA.


No, we don't. I feel safe saying that not one atheist who frequents
alt.atheism believes this.


You [all] believe it.

What makes you think that, particularly given that ones clone, created
at some point in the indefinite future wouldn't be the original in as
much as it wouldn't have the memories, personality and so on of the
original, or continuity of experience?
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
.
User: "Roy Jose Lorr"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 04 Nov 2003 03:48:01 PM
Therion Ware wrote:

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 05:19:15 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism



Enkidu wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3FA72FF6.9553BD15@worldnet.att.net...


The atheist religion preaches "science" as "savior".


There is no "savior".


You have this on unimpeachable authority?... LOL



Atheists silently pray to a science that will defeat
death and resuscitate the dead from
reconstructed DNA.


No, we don't. I feel safe saying that not one atheist who frequents
alt.atheism believes this.


You [all] believe it.


What makes you think that, particularly given that ones clone, created
at some point in the indefinite future wouldn't be the original in as
much as it wouldn't have the memories, personality and so on of the
original, or continuity of experience?

Not to worry. Science will know how to reproduce the original
in every respect... eventually... at least that's the promise your
religion of self and science holds out to you.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
User: "Therion Ware"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 04 Nov 2003 05:18:58 PM
On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 21:48:01 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism



Therion Ware wrote:

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 05:19:15 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism



Enkidu wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3FA72FF6.9553BD15@worldnet.att.net...


The atheist religion preaches "science" as "savior".


There is no "savior".


You have this on unimpeachable authority?... LOL



Atheists silently pray to a science that will defeat
death and resuscitate the dead from
reconstructed DNA.


No, we don't. I feel safe saying that not one atheist who frequents
alt.atheism believes this.


You [all] believe it.


What makes you think that, particularly given that ones clone, created
at some point in the indefinite future wouldn't be the original in as
much as it wouldn't have the memories, personality and so on of the
original, or continuity of experience?


Not to worry. Science will know how to reproduce the original
in every respect... eventually... at least that's the promise your
religion of self and science holds out to you.

Ah, but if it's the original in every respect, then it *is* the
original and not a reproduction.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
.
User: "Roy Jose Lorr"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 05 Nov 2003 10:56:50 AM
Therion Ware wrote:

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 21:48:01 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism



Therion Ware wrote:

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 05:19:15 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism



Enkidu wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3FA72FF6.9553BD15@worldnet.att.net...


The atheist religion preaches "science" as "savior".


There is no "savior".


You have this on unimpeachable authority?... LOL



Atheists silently pray to a science that will defeat
death and resuscitate the dead from
reconstructed DNA.


No, we don't. I feel safe saying that not one atheist who frequents
alt.atheism believes this.


You [all] believe it.


What makes you think that, particularly given that ones clone, created
at some point in the indefinite future wouldn't be the original in as
much as it wouldn't have the memories, personality and so on of the
original, or continuity of experience?


Not to worry. Science will know how to reproduce the original
in every respect... eventually... at least that's the promise your
religion of self and science holds out to you.


Ah, but if it's the original in every respect, then it *is* the
original and not a reproduction.

Hardly.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
User: "Therion Ware"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 05 Nov 2003 11:26:30 AM
On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 16:56:50 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism



Therion Ware wrote:

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 21:48:01 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism



Therion Ware wrote:

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 05:19:15 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism



Enkidu wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3FA72FF6.9553BD15@worldnet.att.net...


The atheist religion preaches "science" as "savior".


There is no "savior".


You have this on unimpeachable authority?... LOL



Atheists silently pray to a science that will defeat
death and resuscitate the dead from
reconstructed DNA.


No, we don't. I feel safe saying that not one atheist who frequents
alt.atheism believes this.


You [all] believe it.


What makes you think that, particularly given that ones clone, created
at some point in the indefinite future wouldn't be the original in as
much as it wouldn't have the memories, personality and so on of the
original, or continuity of experience?


Not to worry. Science will know how to reproduce the original
in every respect... eventually... at least that's the promise your
religion of self and science holds out to you.


Ah, but if it's the original in every respect, then it *is* the
original and not a reproduction.


Hardly.

Oh yes. Leibniz told me so. At least it whoever it was was
indistinguishable from Leibniz.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
.
User: "Roy Jose Lorr"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 05 Nov 2003 12:24:05 PM
Therion Ware wrote:

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 16:56:50 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism



Therion Ware wrote:

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 21:48:01 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism



Therion Ware wrote:

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 05:19:15 GMT in alt.atheism, Roy Jose Lorr (Roy
Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism



Enkidu wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3FA72FF6.9553BD15@worldnet.att.net...


The atheist religion preaches "science" as "savior".


There is no "savior".


You have this on unimpeachable authority?... LOL



Atheists silently pray to a science that will defeat
death and resuscitate the dead from
reconstructed DNA.


No, we don't. I feel safe saying that not one atheist who frequents
alt.atheism believes this.


You [all] believe it.


What makes you think that, particularly given that ones clone, created
at some point in the indefinite future wouldn't be the original in as
much as it wouldn't have the memories, personality and so on of the
original, or continuity of experience?


Not to worry. Science will know how to reproduce the original
in every respect... eventually... at least that's the promise your
religion of self and science holds out to you.


Ah, but if it's the original in every respect, then it *is* the
original and not a reproduction.


Hardly.


Oh yes. Leibniz told me so. At least it whoever it was was
indistinguishable from Leibniz.

Is he the guy that went back to the future looking for
the remains of dracula?
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.




User: "blewyn"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 05 Nov 2003 07:18:28 AM
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3FA81F2E.DF96A7A3@worldnet.att.net>...

Not to worry. Science will know how to reproduce the original
in every respect...

Reproduce, ie make a REPRODUCTION. Not keep the original alive. Even
a reproduction will be a new consciousness, a new person - hardly an
afterlife.

eventually... at least that's the promise your
religion of self and science holds out to you.

Wrong. See if you can grasp this : Some people accept the fact that
we're all going to die, and nothing may come afterwards.
Blewyn
.
User: "Roy Jose Lorr"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 05 Nov 2003 11:09:38 AM
blewyn wrote:

Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3FA81F2E.DF96A7A3@worldnet.att.net>...

Not to worry. Science will know how to reproduce the original
in every respect...


Reproduce, ie make a REPRODUCTION. Not keep the original alive. Even
a reproduction will be a new consciousness, a new person - hardly an
afterlife.

Ah, you sell your religion short?... that's heresy.



eventually... at least that's the promise your
religion of self and science holds out to you.


Wrong. See if you can grasp this : Some people accept the fact that
we're all going to die,

Fantastic revelation.

and nothing may come afterwards.

You have this on the unimpeachable authority of?
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
User: "blewyn"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 06 Nov 2003 12:52:59 AM
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3FA92F70.63C01CDA@worldnet.att.net>...

blewyn wrote:

Not to worry. Science will know how to reproduce the original
in every respect...


Reproduce, ie make a REPRODUCTION. Not keep the original alive. Even
a reproduction will be a new consciousness, a new person - hardly an
afterlife.


Ah, you sell your religion short?... that's heresy.

No, because you see the whole point of science, unlike a religion, is
that you start from a position of ignorance, formulate theories based
on observation (theories, not beliefs), and revise or discard them as
you go along and make new discoveries. The whole point of science is
to admit that we DON'T know what's going on, not that we do.

eventually... at least that's the promise your
religion of self and science holds out to you.


Wrong. See if you can grasp this : Some people accept the fact that
we're all going to die,


Fantastic revelation.

That's rich, coming from someone who clings to a supernatural belief
in life after death.

and nothing may come afterwards.


You have this on the unimpeachable authority of?

You don't seem to understand English or Science very well. In order
to accept that something MAY happen, you don't need to believe it will
certainly happen, or have any proof - you just need to accept the
possibility.
No-one has anything on 'unimpeachable authority', because there's no
such thing.
Blewyn
.
User: "Roy Jose Lorr"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 07 Nov 2003 08:22:34 AM
blewyn wrote:

Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3FA92F70.63C01CDA@worldnet.att.net>...

blewyn wrote:


Not to worry. Science will know how to reproduce the original
in every respect...


Reproduce, ie make a REPRODUCTION. Not keep the original alive. Even
a reproduction will be a new consciousness, a new person - hardly an
afterlife.


Ah, you sell your religion short?... that's heresy.


No, because you see the whole point of science, unlike a religion, is
that you start from a position of ignorance, formulate theories based
on observation (theories, not beliefs), and revise or discard them as
you go along and make new discoveries. The whole point of science is
to admit that we DON'T know what's going on, not that we do.

I see. . in science there is no [faith] in unobserved phenomena. Please
excuse me if I,,, LOL.



eventually... at least that's the promise your
religion of self and science holds out to you.


Wrong. See if you can grasp this : Some people accept the fact that
we're all going to die,


Fantastic revelation.


That's rich, coming from someone who clings to a supernatural belief
in life after death.

Whatever gave you the false impression that I believe in life
after death?... nothing is farther from the truth.



and nothing may come afterwards.


You have this on the unimpeachable authority of?


You don't seem to understand English or Science very well. In order
to accept that something MAY happen, you don't need to believe it will
certainly happen, or have any proof - you just need to accept the
possibility.

You mean, have faith in unobservable phenomena?... again... LOL



No-one has anything on 'unimpeachable authority', because there's no
such thing.

Ah but there is.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
User: "blewyn"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 08 Nov 2003 12:17:33 AM
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3FABAB27.A94F998@worldnet.att.net>...

No, because you see the whole point of science, unlike a religion, is
that you start from a position of ignorance, formulate theories based
on observation (theories, not beliefs), and revise or discard them as
you go along and make new discoveries. The whole point of science is
to admit that we DON'T know what's going on, not that we do.


I see. . in science there is no [faith] in unobserved phenomena. Please
excuse me if I,,, LOL.

Only hypotheses. Prat.

Whatever gave you the false impression that I believe in life
after death?... nothing is farther from the truth.

Your idiotic ridicule of scientific thinking led me to believe that
you were a semi-literate bible-basher.

and nothing may come afterwards.


You have this on the unimpeachable authority of?


You don't seem to understand English or Science very well. In order
to accept that something MAY happen, you don't need to believe it will
certainly happen, or have any proof - you just need to accept the
possibility.


You mean, have faith in unobservable phenomena?... again... LOL

No, I mean exactly what I said - you need to accept that conceivable
but unobserved phenomena are POSSIBLE. In fact, it's pretty damn
stupid NOT to have faith that such things exist - given the normally
unobservable phenomena that mankind has discovered. Radio waves,
atoms and molecules, cell biology, Pluto....

No-one has anything on 'unimpeachable authority', because there's no
such thing.


Ah but there is.

Do go on....enlighten us...
Blewyn
.
User: "Roy Jose Lorr"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 10 Nov 2003 08:53:57 AM
blewyn wrote:

Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3FABAB27.A94F998@worldnet.att.net>...

No, because you see the whole point of science, unlike a religion, is
that you start from a position of ignorance, formulate theories based
on observation (theories, not beliefs), and revise or discard them as
you go along and make new discoveries. The whole point of science is
to admit that we DON'T know what's going on, not that we do.


I see. . in science there is no [faith] in unobserved phenomena. Please
excuse me if I,,, LOL.


Only hypotheses. Prat.

I see, faith in hypothesis. Gnat.



Whatever gave you the false impression that I believe in life
after death?... nothing is farther from the truth.


Your idiotic ridicule of scientific thinking led me to believe that
you were a semi-literate bible-basher.

Your buzzer been buzzed?



and nothing may come afterwards.


You have this on the unimpeachable authority of?


You don't seem to understand English or Science very well. In order
to accept that something MAY happen, you don't need to believe it will
certainly happen, or have any proof - you just need to accept the
possibility.


You mean, have faith in unobservable phenomena?... again... LOL


No, I mean exactly what I said - you need to accept that conceivable
but unobserved phenomena are POSSIBLE. In fact, it's pretty damn
stupid NOT to have faith that such things exist - given the normally
unobservable phenomena that mankind has discovered. Radio waves,
atoms and molecules, cell biology, Pluto....

I see, 'Radio waves, atoms and molecules, cell biology, Pluto....'
are all unobserved... there was no object referent to any of
them prior to conceiving them. No, I don't believe I'll swallow
your crap about "you need to accept that conceivable
but unobserved phenomena are POSSIBLE."... Haw.



No-one has anything on 'unimpeachable authority', because there's no
such thing.


Ah but there is.


Do go on....enlighten us...

When you can 'conceive' of enlightenment,
give 'us' a jingle. BAGL
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
User: "blewyn"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 11 Nov 2003 12:09:07 AM
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3FAFA705.4B7EDCB9@worldnet.att.net>...

I see. . in science there is no [faith] in unobserved phenomena. Please
excuse me if I,,, LOL.


Only hypotheses. Prat.


I see, faith in hypothesis. Gnat.

No, you don't see at all. You can't have faith in a hypothesis, or it
wouldn't be a hypothesis - it would be a belief. To consider something
a hypothesis is - by definition - to accepting the possibility that it
may NOT be true. That's the whole POINT of the word 'hypothesis'. Do
please look it up.

Your buzzer been buzzed?

Troll.

I see, 'Radio waves, atoms and molecules, cell biology, Pluto....'
are all unobserved... there was no object referent to any of
them prior to conceiving them. No, I don't believe I'll swallow
your crap about "you need to accept that conceivable
but unobserved phenomena are POSSIBLE."... Haw.

Er...so you're saying that there is nothing at all which exists but
hasn't already been observed or conceived of ? You really believe
that ?

No-one has anything on 'unimpeachable authority', because there's no
such thing.


Ah but there is.


Do go on....enlighten us...


When you can 'conceive' of enlightenment,
give 'us' a jingle. BAGL

How disappointing. Just when it looks like an interesting new
argument or angle is about to appear, off you scuttle. Same
centuries-old cheap trick - "if you're not ready to accept my
arguments then I can't tell them to you" - of those who know their
belief system is a fiction but can't bring themselves to admit it.
Blewyn
.
User: "Roy Jose Lorr"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 11 Nov 2003 02:42:16 AM
blewyn wrote:

Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3FAFA705.4B7EDCB9@worldnet.att.net>...

I see. . in science there is no [faith] in unobserved phenomena. Please
excuse me if I,,, LOL.


Only hypotheses. Prat.


I see, faith in hypothesis. Gnat.


No, you don't see at all. You can't have faith in a hypothesis, or it
wouldn't be a hypothesis - it would be a belief. To consider something
a hypothesis is - by definition - to accepting the possibility that it
may NOT be true. That's the whole POINT of the word 'hypothesis'. Do
please look it up.

Look up human nature. I believe it takes precedence over
your indoctrination.



Your buzzer been buzzed?


Troll.

One man's troll is another man's freedom fighter... Haw.



I see, 'Radio waves, atoms and molecules, cell biology, Pluto....'
are all unobserved... there was no object referent to any of
them prior to conceiving them. No, I don't believe I'll swallow
your crap about "you need to accept that conceivable
but unobserved phenomena are POSSIBLE."... Haw.


Er...so you're saying that there is nothing at all which exists but
hasn't already been observed or conceived of ? You really believe
that ?

Are you a sophist by nature or nurture?



No-one has anything on 'unimpeachable authority', because there's no
such thing.


Ah but there is.


Do go on....enlighten us...


When you can 'conceive' of enlightenment,
give 'us' a jingle. BAGL


How disappointing. Just when it looks like an interesting new
argument or angle is about to appear, off you scuttle.

"Scuttle"?... hardly.

Same
centuries-old cheap trick - "if you're not ready to accept my
arguments then I can't tell them to you" - of those who know their
belief system is a fiction but can't bring themselves to admit it.

Do you project due to nature or nurture?
'When you can 'conceive' of the nature of
"enlightenment", give 'us' a jingle'. I expect
you to write your own definition. Those in
the common dictionaries serve only to promote
entrenched agendas or to further cloud
already muddied waters. Anyhoo, just
repeating a dictionary definition isn't a
conceptually relevant act, if you didn't write
the dictionary yourself. If you've actually
tried to write one, you've noticed that it's
hard to treat words (such as "hypothesis")
like little gems.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
User: "blewyn"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 11 Nov 2003 08:59:21 AM
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3FB0A169.2BDE5EAE@worldnet.att.net>...

No, you don't see at all. You can't have faith in a hypothesis, or it
wouldn't be a hypothesis - it would be a belief. To consider something
a hypothesis is - by definition - to accepting the possibility that it
may NOT be true. That's the whole POINT of the word 'hypothesis'. Do
please look it up.


Look up human nature. I believe it takes precedence over
your indoctrination.

Does it ? Could you please explain yourself a little better ? These
glib hit-and-run statements of yours are getting a bit tedious. Why
should human nature preclude us from using hypotheses ?

Your buzzer been buzzed?


Troll.


One man's troll is another man's freedom fighter... Haw.

Er...no...a troll is someone who posts offensive or obtuse statements
just to irritate other posters. In what way could posting "your
buzzer been buzzed" be considered an act of struggle for freedom ?

I see, 'Radio waves, atoms and molecules, cell biology, Pluto....'
are all unobserved... there was no object referent to any of
them prior to conceiving them. No, I don't believe I'll swallow
your crap about "you need to accept that conceivable
but unobserved phenomena are POSSIBLE."... Haw.


Er...so you're saying that there is nothing at all which exists but
hasn't already been observed or conceived of ? You really believe
that ?


Are you a sophist by nature or nurture?

It's a simple question. What is it about it that you don't understand
?

How disappointing. Just when it looks like an interesting new
argument or angle is about to appear, off you scuttle.


"Scuttle"?... hardly.

Same
centuries-old cheap trick - "if you're not ready to accept my
arguments then I can't tell them to you" - of those who know their
belief system is a fiction but can't bring themselves to admit it.


Do you project due to nature or nurture?

If it walks like a duck...

'When you can 'conceive' of the nature of
"enlightenment", give 'us' a jingle'. I expect
you to write your own definition. Those in
the common dictionaries serve only to promote
entrenched agendas or to further cloud
already muddied waters. Anyhoo, just
repeating a dictionary definition isn't a
conceptually relevant act, if you didn't write
the dictionary yourself. If you've actually
tried to write one, you've noticed that it's
hard to treat words (such as "hypothesis")
like little gems.

I see. Just learned about the conceptually constricting nature of
language in school and itching to try it out eh ? If you can't be
bothered to communicate in terms others understand, then why are you
posting here - cheap thrills ? The word 'hypothesis' has a very
specific meaning which encapsulates the fundamental difference between
science and religion. Your argument - that people have faith in
science - is simply and fundamentally wrong, because science isn't
about faith.
Blewyn
.
User: "Roy Jose Lorr"

Title: Re: Half of American atheists believe in life after death 12 Nov 2003 05:30:52 AM
blewyn wrote:

Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3FB0A169.2BDE5EAE@worldnet.att.net>...

No, you don't see at all. You can't have faith in a hypothesis, or it
wouldn't be a hypothesis - it would be a belief. To consider something
a hypothesis is - by definition - to accepting the possibility that it
may NOT be true. That's the whole POINT of the word 'hypothesis'. Do
please look it up.


Look up human nature. I believe it takes precedence over
your indoctrination.


Does it ? Could you please explain yourself a little better ? These
glib hit-and-run statements of yours are getting a bit tedious. Why
should human nature preclude us from using hypotheses ?

No one says hypothesis is useless, only that until the "NOT be true"
part raises its ugly head, its generally taken on [faith].



Your buzzer been buzzed?


Troll.


One man's troll is another man's freedom fighter... Haw.


Er...no...a troll is someone who posts offensive or obtuse statements
just to irritate other posters.

By that criteria, everyone who posts to usenet is a troll.

In what way could posting "your
buzzer been buzzed" be considered an act of struggle for freedom ?

Struggle?...who said anything about struggle?



I see, 'Radio waves, atoms and molecules, cell biology, Pluto....'
are all unobserved... there was no object referent to any of
them prior to conceiving them. No, I don't believe I'll swallow
your crap about "you need to accept that conceivable
but unobserved phenomena are POSSIBLE."... Haw.


Er...so you're saying that there is nothing at all which exists but
hasn't already been observed or conceived of ? You really believe
that ?


Are you a sophist by nature or nurture?


It's a simple question. What is it about it that you don't understand
?

I understand it all right... its simple sophistry.



How disappointing. Just when it looks like an interesting new
argument or angle is about to appear, off you scuttle.


"Scuttle"?... hardly.

Same
centuries-old cheap trick - "if you're not ready to accept my
arguments then I can't tell them to you" - of those who know their
belief system is a fiction but can't bring themselves to admit it.


Do you project due to nature or nurture?


If it walks like a duck...

If you can't stop quacking, its time to...




'When you can 'conceive' of the nature of
"enlightenment", give 'us' a jingle'. I expect
you to write your own definition. Those in
the common dictionaries serve only to promote
entrenched agendas or to further cloud
already muddied waters. Anyhoo, just
repeating a dictionary definition isn't a
conceptually relevant act, if you didn't write
the dictionary yourself. If you've actually
tried to write one, you've noticed that it's
hard to treat words (such as "hypothesis")
like little gems.


I see. Just learned about the conceptually constricting nature of
language in school and itching to try it out eh ?

You may wish to retake the course. Apparently you didn't
understand it the first time around.

If you can't be
bothered to communicate in terms others understand, then why are you
posting here - cheap thrills ?

I'm here to be enlightened.

The word 'hypothesis' has a very
specific meaning which encapsulates the fundamental difference between
science and religion. Your argument - that people have faith in
science - is simply and fundamentally wrong, because science isn't
about faith.

Suppositions (hypotheses) are taken for granted (on faith). If they weren't,
there'd be no attempt to prove (proof) anything, except maybe a loaf of
bread before it goes into the oven... science as bakery.
The only difference between religions, science and otherwise,
are the priests garments.
Either you believe in things unseen, or you don't... make up your mind.
If you wish to keep your cake you must not eat it.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.