| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Rhyanon" |
| Date: |
27 Mar 2005 02:16:06 PM |
| Object: |
happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
COMMENTARY
Dee: Some Christians now admit: Jesus is not risen
James H. Dee, LOCAL CONTRIBUTOR
Thursday, March 24, 2005
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again, Christians retell "The Easter Story," and once again they remain
blissfully unaware that, like "The Christmas Story," it has disintegrated
under critical scrutiny that began with David Friedrich Strauss in 1835. One
problem involves the "reality" of the Resurrection and another involves the
morality of redemption through torture and death - topics few pastors will
raise in their Sunday sermons.
The problem of historicity emerges with characteristic directness in Paul's
remark, "If Christ is not risen, your faith is in vain" (Corinthians 1:14).
For most people, this is a simple issue, since the Resurrection - the
central and uniquely defining element in Christianity - is widely supposed
to be a historical fact. But a growing number of Christian scholars have
come to regard this belief as falsified by the biblical texts themselves.
The clearest sign of trouble is invisible in an ordinary Bible but glaringly
evident in a "harmony" of the Synoptic Gospels (i.e. Mark and the partially
derivative Matthew and Luke), where the various episodes, which occur in
disconcertingly different sequences, are brought together, phrase by phrase,
in triple-column layout. Many events occur in lock-step, with verbatim
repetition, showing that Matthew and Luke had versions of Mark at hand or
memorized.
But this triple attestation vanishes in the Resurrection narratives: the
Bribing of the Guard, the Road to Emmaus, the Appearances to the Eleven
(Jerusalem in Luke; Galilee in Matthew), Doubting Thomas and the Ascension
are all "isolates" - and even the three tellings of the Easter Morning
stories have irreconcilable contradictions. The 79 Catholic and Protestant
scholars of the controversial Jesus Seminar concluded that all those
episodes are completely fictional ("The Acts of Jesus" pages 465-95). They
also declared, using red letters to indicate their high level of certainty,
"The Resurrection of Jesus did not involve the resuscitation of a corpse. .
.. . The body of Jesus decayed as do other corpses" (pages 461-2).
In his new book, "The Resurrection of Christ: A Historical Inquiry," the
eminent New Testament scholar Gerd Lüdemann incisively demolishes the
Resurrection accounts, including the visions of Peter and Paul. He states,
with remarkable forthrightness, "For 2,000 years an abiding faith in Jesus'
Resurrection has displayed enormous power, but because of its utter
groundlessness we must now acknowledge that it has all along been a
worldwide historical hoax."
The once-solid façade of conventional belief is crumbling from within, and
it is increasingly apparent that the founding event of Christianity can be
defended only through ignorance or dishonesty. And there is an even more
serious problem, independent of historical arguments: What is the moral
sense of using physical torture and death of one person as expiation for
offenses against divinity committed by millions?
It seems obvious that Jesus' comparatively mild and brief suffering cannot
be enough to compensate for the sins of countless believers, especially
since Christian doctrine has long asserted that only extreme, eternal
torment will suffice if individual sinners choose to be resolutely ethical
and, in the vogue phrase, "accept personal responsibility" for their
actions.
Those who saw Mel Gibson's "Passion of the Christ" may wonder at the words
"comparatively mild and brief." But the Gospels offer few details about the
maltreatment Jesus received, and thousands of unfortunates crucified by
Roman generals and governors (for example, 6,000 prisoners from Spartacus'
revolt in 71 BC) probably suffered similar preliminary abuse. Also, in Mark
alone, Pilate is surprised (and presumably disappointed) that Jesus died so
quickly - the Romans wanted their victims to die after several days of
agony.
However, the deeper issue is not the quantity of discomfort Jesus endured
but the whole concept of a naively anthropomorphic divinity, whose anger at
human failings can be placated only by raw physical pain and death. The 2002
edition of the "New Catholic Encyclopedia" has a 17-page, theologically
sophisticated article on "Redemption" - which unhesitatingly asserts that,
because of God's unrelenting hatred for sin, "satisfaction" must be exacted
corporeally, either from mankind or from Jesus, as if the cosmic deity had
the mentality of a gang-lord.
This notion deserves to be called primitive, tribal and -perhaps most
embarrassing for a supposedly omniscient, loving and creative entity -
supremely unimaginative in its fixation on brute cruelty.
As Lüdemann says, the fictionality of the Resurrection entails the falsehood
of Christianity, thus reversing Paul: Jesus is not risen, and his followers'
faith is in vain. The big question is: When will believers start to read the
Bible closely enough to discover the unsettling truth for themselves?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dee is a visiting scholar in the classics department at the University of
Texas-Austin.
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| User: "someone" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
27 Mar 2005 04:24:01 PM |
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The problem of historicity emerges with characteristic directness in
Paul's
remark, "If Christ is not risen, your faith is in vain" (Corinthians
1:14).
Who cares what Paul says?
Matthew 16:17-20 (taken from the BibleGateway.com), which are words
from Jesus to Peter:
'Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you
by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter,
and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will
not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven;
whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you
loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.'
However in Galatians 2:11 Paul says:
'When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was
clearly in the wrong.'
So Paul went against the words of Jesus.
The 2002
edition of the "New Catholic Encyclopedia" has a 17-page,
theologically
sophisticated article on "Redemption" - which unhesitatingly asserts
that,
because of God's unrelenting hatred for sin, "satisfaction" must be
exacted
corporeally, either from mankind or from Jesus, as if the cosmic
deity had
the mentality of a gang-lord.
The Catholic church is arguably the church of Paul. Just because they
say that God has an unrelenting hatred for sin, doesn't make it so. I
visited the Vatican, and they sell ashtrays with an image of Jesus'
face on, presumably so that people can stub their cigarettes out on it.
Wasn't Paul executed upside down (now often used as the symbol of the
anti-Christ)?
Peter never said to Paul '...whatever you bind on earth will be bound
in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.'
Let alone add on 'and your followers can nominate who carries the
mantle after that'. I would have thought the Vatican knew that. Why
they preached otherwise, I'm not sure. I'm also not sure, why with all
that money they don't help out the starving in the world more than they
do. I'm not attacking the Catholic Church, I'm sure they have reasons
for the above, I'm just not sure what they are.
Personally I don't believe God hates anything. Jesus didn't seem to.
It seems obvious that Jesus' comparatively mild and brief suffering
cannot
be enough to compensate for the sins of countless believers,
especially
since Christian doctrine has long asserted that only extreme, eternal
torment will suffice if individual sinners choose to be resolutely
ethical
and, in the vogue phrase, "accept personal responsibility" for their
actions.
It could be argued that 'good' equates to selflessness, and that 'evil'
equates to selfishness, and that the significance of Jesus' willingness
to die at the cross for strangers, was to point them the selfless path.
I don't personally know why Dee takes the bible so literally, it was
written by humans. If God can inspire humans, then presumably so can
the Devil. Therefore some of the bible may be inspired by the Devil.
How can you distinguish between what was inspired by God, and what was
inspired by the Devil? One way might be to look at whether what is
being suggested seems selfless or not.
Even if Jesus wasn't resurrected (and I'm not saying he wasn't), I fail
to see how it effects that he pointed humanity towards the selfless
path, by his willingness to sacrifice his life for strangers.
I'm not sure whether Dee is suggesting that people should believe in
atheism, but to do that they would then have to believe either that
their destiny is fixed, and there is nothing they could do to change
it, or that there are effects without causes (against all scientific
evidence).
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
27 Mar 2005 07:29:17 PM |
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On 27 Mar 2005 08:24:01 -0800, after pondering deep
thoughts, "someone" <glenn.spigel@btinternet.com> spake
thusly:
The problem of historicity emerges with characteristic
directness in Paul's remark, "If Christ is not risen, your
faith is in vain" (Corinthians 1:14).
Who cares what Paul says?
Matthew 16:17-20 (taken from the BibleGateway.com),
which are words from Jesus to Peter:
'Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you
by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter,
and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will
not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven;
whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you
loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.'
However in Galatians 2:11 Paul says:
'When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was
clearly in the wrong.'
So Paul went against the words of Jesus.
Are you really this simple? Where does Jesus say Peter
is never wrong? And what did Jesus say to Peter just
three verses later?
"But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind
me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou
savorest not the things that be of God, but those that
be of men." - Matthew 16:23
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
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| User: "someone" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
28 Mar 2005 03:08:35 PM |
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Are you really this simple? Where does Jesus say Peter
is never wrong? And what did Jesus say to Peter just
three verses later?
"But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind
me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou
savorest not the things that be of God, but those that
be of men." - Matthew 16:23
Matthew 16:17-20
'Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you
by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter,
and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will
not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven;
whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you
loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.'
Notice the use of the word 'will' and its future tense. It seems to say
that Peter will carry on the church of Jesus after he was is gone, and
that whatever he says the same will be bound in heaven, therefore he
could say no wrong. At this time though, he would have seen Jesus
resurrected, and no longer have any doubts.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
28 Mar 2005 05:26:33 PM |
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On 28 Mar 2005 07:08:35 -0800, while wishing I would go
away, "someone" <glenn.spigel@btinternet.com> said:
Are you really this simple? Where does Jesus say Peter
is never wrong? And what did Jesus say to Peter just
three verses later?
"But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind
me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou
savorest not the things that be of God, but those that
be of men." - Matthew 16:23
Matthew 16:17-20
'Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you
by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter,
and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will
not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven;
whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you
loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.'
Notice the use of the word 'will' and its future tense. It seems to say
that Peter will carry on the church of Jesus after he was is gone, and
that whatever he says the same will be bound in heaven, therefore he
could say no wrong. At this time though, he would have seen Jesus
resurrected, and no longer have any doubts.
And apparently, so should the rest of the disciples,
since He was talking to all of them, when he said the
following...
"Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on
earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall
loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
- Matthew 18:18
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
.
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| User: "someone" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
28 Mar 2005 11:08:10 PM |
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"Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on
earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall
loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
- Matthew 18:18
They had to be in a group to get that status.
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| User: "someone" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
28 Mar 2005 11:14:52 PM |
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"Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on
earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall
loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
- Matthew 18:18
They had to be in a group to get that status.
Actually please ignore that, I was thinking of something else.
Your right he did.
Paul wasn't in that group though was he.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
28 Mar 2005 11:18:31 PM |
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On 28 Mar 2005 15:14:52 -0800, while wishing I would go
away, "someone" <glenn.spigel@btinternet.com> said:
"Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on
earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall
loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
- Matthew 18:18
They had to be in a group to get that status.
Actually please ignore that, I was thinking of something else.
Your right he did.
Paul wasn't in that group though was he.
Doesn't matter. He was chosen by Christ Himself.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
.
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| User: "someone" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
28 Mar 2005 11:21:28 PM |
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Doesn't matter. He was chosen by Christ Himself.
So he said.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
29 Mar 2005 04:17:48 AM |
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On 28 Mar 2005 15:21:28 -0800, while wishing I would go
away, "someone" <glenn.spigel@btinternet.com> said:
Doesn't matter. He was chosen by Christ Himself.
So he said.
I get it. If you don't like it, just tear it out of
the Bible. Got it.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
.
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| User: "someone" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
29 Mar 2005 12:22:56 PM |
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I get it. If you don't like it, just tear it out of
the Bible. Got it.
I'm not saying that, I am just pointing out, that even in the bible, we
only have Paul's word about what happened, and it I believe his story
wasn't always consistant.
Also there is the concept that if someone says "honestly, ... ", all
the time then it suggests that they don't always speak honestly. Who
else apart from Paul in the Bible keeps insisting that he is not lying?
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
29 Mar 2005 02:27:53 PM |
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"someone" <glenn.spigel@btinternet.com> wrote in
news:1112098976.618943.218260@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
I get it. If you don't like it, just tear it out of
the Bible. Got it.
I'm not saying that, I am just pointing out, that even in the bible, we
only have Paul's word about what happened, and it I believe his story
wasn't always consistant.
Also there is the concept that if someone says "honestly, ... ", all
the time then it suggests that they don't always speak honestly. Who
else apart from Paul in the Bible keeps insisting that he is not lying?
Uh, Jesus himself?
"Verily, I say unto you..."
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"You know you're over the target when you start receiving flak."
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| User: "someone" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
29 Mar 2005 04:11:30 PM |
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Also there is the concept that if someone says "honestly, ... ", all
the time then it suggests that they don't always speak honestly. Who
else apart from Paul in the Bible keeps insisting that he is not
lying?
Uh, Jesus himself?
"Verily, I say unto you..."
Does he say it alot? Where does he say it in the case you mention? I
know you must be right, else you wouldn't have quoted it, I just don't
know the Bible as well as you.
By the way, are you going to give me an answer on "To All Christians:
Prove your case!" about your assumptions on whether the universe is
deterministic or not, and that I misunderstood what Jean Bricmont was
saying, because you have on quite a few threads gone around saying that
I have misunderstood what he is saying, and it would seem to be a good
place to point out to me what I have misunderstood. I'm not saying that
I can't be wrong, and if I am then I won't be the first person that
was. I just don't want to have to keep shifting the discussion around
to other threads as you did the last time (and therefore why it is now
on the thread that it is). If I haven't misunderstood, then perhaps
you'd be polite enough to answer your own accusations that I had
misunderstood, and point out to people that in fact I hadn't.
Cheers,
Glenn
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
29 Mar 2005 05:42:28 PM |
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"someone" <glenn.spigel@btinternet.com> wrote in
news:1112112690.246443.293790@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
Also there is the concept that if someone says "honestly, ... ", all
the time then it suggests that they don't always speak honestly. Who
else apart from Paul in the Bible keeps insisting that he is not
lying?
Uh, Jesus himself?
"Verily, I say unto you..."
Does he say it alot? Where does he say it in the case you mention? I
know you must be right, else you wouldn't have quoted it, I just don't
know the Bible as well as you.
More than a dozen times just in Matthew.
By the way, are you going to give me an answer on "To All Christians:
Prove your case!"
I did answer you, sunshine. Are you going to pay attention or are you
just going to keep repeating your same erroneous claims?
about your assumptions on whether the universe is
deterministic or not, and that I misunderstood what Jean Bricmont was
saying, because you have on quite a few threads gone around saying
that I have misunderstood what he is saying, and it would seem to be a
good place to point out to me what I have misunderstood. I'm not
saying that I can't be wrong, and if I am then I won't be the first
person that was. I just don't want to have to keep shifting the
discussion around to other threads as you did the last time (and
therefore why it is now on the thread that it is). If I haven't
misunderstood, then perhaps you'd be polite enough to answer your own
accusations that I had misunderstood, and point out to people that in
fact I hadn't.
As long as you repeat the same misunderstandings, I'll keep pointing
them out, in every thread that I run across. Feel free to ignore them
there as you have ignored them everywhere else.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"You know you're over the target when you start receiving flak."
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
29 Mar 2005 01:05:06 PM |
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On 29 Mar 2005 04:22:56 -0800, while wishing I would go
away, "someone" <glenn.spigel@btinternet.com> said:
I get it. If you don't like it, just tear it out of
the Bible. Got it.
I'm not saying that, I am just pointing out, that even in the bible, we
only have Paul's word about what happened, and it I believe his story
wasn't always consistant.
Also there is the concept that if someone says "honestly, ... ", all
the time then it suggests that they don't always speak honestly. Who
else apart from Paul in the Bible keeps insisting that he is not lying?
And Paul just happens to be saying something you're not
all that thrilled about, right?
If Paul is not consistent, then you don't know what to
believe in his writings. So they should go. Let's see
what happens.
We must eliminate all of his letters. Can't have those
in God's word, if they're not free of lies. So let's
see what we're left with...
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Hebrews, James,
1 & 2 Peter, 1, 2 & 3 John, Jude, Revelation
Now of course, Luke followed Paul around and wrote, so
we can't really trust him and after all, Acts is mostly
about Paul anyway, so we should take out Luke and Acts.
Matthew, Mark, John, Hebrews, James, 1 & 2 Peter,
1, 2 & 3 John, Jude, Revelation
Then again, Peter does call Paul's writings,
"Scripture" (2 Peter 3:15-16), so we can't trust him
either.
Matthew, Mark, John, Hebrews, 1, 2 & 3 John, Jude,
Revelation
There ya go. There's your "new", New Testament.
Now if we really want to be real strict about it,
Matthew should go, because hey, some people think that
it isn't even the original, but a Greek copy of a
Hebrew writing, so we can't trust that either.
Mark, John, Hebrews, 1, 2 & 3 John, Jude, Revelation
Then again, lots of people think that John was written
much later and that some pagan influence was added to
it, so his writings should go too.
Mark, Hebrews, Jude
Of course, we don't really know who wrote Hebrews.
Mark, Jude
There ya go, there's your final cut.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
.
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| User: "someone" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
29 Mar 2005 04:00:50 PM |
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And Paul just happens to be saying something you're not
all that thrilled about, right?
It's not that I feel one way or the other about what Paul said, I
believe Bhuddists reach Nirvana (heaven) if they are selfless. It just
seems that from a Christian perspective, it is clear that the Church of
Christ is built on Peter, and that Jesus gave him authority to produce
any doctrine on what it means to be a member of that Church. Paul can
set up his own church if he likes, but it won't be the Church of Christ.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
29 Mar 2005 04:03:27 PM |
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On 29 Mar 2005 08:00:50 -0800, while wishing I would go
away, "someone" <glenn.spigel@btinternet.com> said:
it is clear that the Church of
Christ is built on Peter, and that Jesus gave him authority to produce
any doctrine on what it means to be a member of that Church.
That is not true at all and nowhere does Scripture say
that.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
29 Mar 2005 04:02:48 PM |
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On 29 Mar 2005 08:00:50 -0800, while wishing I would go
away, "someone" <glenn.spigel@btinternet.com> said:
And Paul just happens to be saying something you're not
all that thrilled about, right?
It's not that I feel one way or the other about what Paul said,
It is that, or you wouldn't have brought it up.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
29 Mar 2005 07:01:12 PM |
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someone wrote:
I get it. If you don't like it, just tear it out of
the Bible. Got it.
I'm not saying that, I am just pointing out, that even in the bible,
we
only have Paul's word about what happened, and it I believe his story
wasn't always consistant.
Also there is the concept that if someone says "honestly, ... ", all
the time then it suggests that they don't always speak honestly. Who
else apart from Paul in the Bible keeps insisting that he is not
lying?
The next time you listen to sermon at a church
or on T.V. Count the number of times they
use the word truth.
Larry
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
28 Mar 2005 11:18:13 PM |
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On 28 Mar 2005 15:08:10 -0800, while wishing I would go
away, "someone" <glenn.spigel@btinternet.com> said:
"Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on
earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall
loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
- Matthew 18:18
They had to be in a group to get that status.
The question asked of you was...
"Where does Jesus say Peter is never wrong?"
You quoted Matthew 16:17-20 in response. You were
wrong. Admit it.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
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\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
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| User: "someone" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
28 Mar 2005 11:21:09 PM |
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Well, from what you pointed out, it seems all the disciples had that
status.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
29 Mar 2005 04:18:40 AM |
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On 28 Mar 2005 15:21:09 -0800, while wishing I would go
away, "someone" <glenn.spigel@btinternet.com> said:
Well, from what you pointed out, it seems
all the disciples had that status.
I am gratified to see that you did not try to defend
your incorrect statement. A rarity here. :)
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
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| User: "someone" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
29 Mar 2005 12:44:00 PM |
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Well, from what you pointed out, it seems
all the disciples had that status.
I am gratified to see that you did not try to defend
your incorrect statement. A rarity here. :)
What does:
"Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be
bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed
in heaven."
mean to you?
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
29 Mar 2005 01:17:50 PM |
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On 29 Mar 2005 04:44:00 -0800, while wishing I would go
away, "someone" <glenn.spigel@btinternet.com> said:
Well, from what you pointed out, it seems
all the disciples had that status.
I am gratified to see that you did not try to defend
your incorrect statement. A rarity here. :)
What does:
"Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be
bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed
in heaven."
mean to you?
Well, this is one of the questions that preachers shy
away from, right? :)
<Arnold voice on>
Good thing I am not a girly man scaredy cat!
<Arnold voice off>
This is a tough question. It isn't representative of
Peter standing there, letting people in Heaven and
denying others. Bear in mind, it says, "WHATsoever ye
shall bind..." and not "WHOsoever...".
It has been my understanding that this is
representative of the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.
Certainly God is not giving the power to men to run
Heaven and Earth. Why would God tell imperfect man to
take over His job? Do we believe that God headed for
the Bahamas on vacation and left control to men? :)
This would seem to deal with authority in the church,
once Christ departs for Heaven. Binding or loosing is
permitting or not permitting something (whatsoever)
within the church on Earth. Jesus is giving the
Apostles authority in His stead, while they are on
Earth and they have the authority to permit and forbid
various practices within the church.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
.
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| User: "someone" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
29 Mar 2005 03:54:52 PM |
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It has been my understanding that this is
representative of the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.
Certainly God is not giving the power to men to run
Heaven and Earth. Why would God tell imperfect man to
take over His job? Do we believe that God headed for
the Bahamas on vacation and left control to men? :)
It was only said to the disciples though, who saw with their own eyes
that Jesus was truly resurrected. It wasn't passed on to any men after
that, though I don't know the Bible as well as you, so if it was, I'm
sure you'll let me know.
This would seem to deal with authority in the church,
once Christ departs for Heaven. Binding or loosing is
permitting or not permitting something (whatsoever)
within the church on Earth. Jesus is giving the
Apostles authority in His stead, while they are on
Earth and they have the authority to permit and forbid
various practices within the church.
So the Church of Christ is built upon Peter, and Peter and the
disciples were given the authority to permit and forbid various
practises in the church.
So why did Paul tell Peter that he was wrong about what being a
follower of the Church of Christ meant? It would seem to me as a
layman, that he had contradicted Jesus. Jesus had said the Church of
Christ would be built on what Peter said.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
29 Mar 2005 04:01:05 PM |
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On 29 Mar 2005 07:54:52 -0800, while wishing I would go
away, "someone" <glenn.spigel@btinternet.com> said:
It has been my understanding that this is
representative of the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.
Certainly God is not giving the power to men to run
Heaven and Earth. Why would God tell imperfect man to
take over His job? Do we believe that God headed for
the Bahamas on vacation and left control to men? :)
It was only said to the disciples though, who saw with their own eyes
that Jesus was truly resurrected. It wasn't passed on to any men after
that, though I don't know the Bible as well as you, so if it was, I'm
sure you'll let me know.
You are correct in that He said it to the disciples.
We must bear in mind though, that the disciples were
the ones he sent out. The disciples in turn, set
authorities in the various churches, but never gave
them equal authority with themselves.
This would seem to deal with authority in the church,
once Christ departs for Heaven. Binding or loosing is
permitting or not permitting something (whatsoever)
within the church on Earth. Jesus is giving the
Apostles authority in His stead, while they are on
Earth and they have the authority to permit and forbid
various practices within the church.
So the Church of Christ is built upon Peter, and Peter and the
disciples were given the authority to permit and forbid various
practises in the church.
No, it was not built upon Peter. Peter was merely the
first to confess Christ as the Christ and so, Jesus
responded to that. Jesus gave the same authority to
the other disciples, later.
So why did Paul tell Peter that he was wrong about what being a
follower of the Church of Christ meant? It would seem to me as a
layman, that he had contradicted Jesus. Jesus had said the Church of
Christ would be built on what Peter said.
Paul did not tell Peter he was wrong about what being a
follower of Christ meant. He pointed out to Peter,
that he (Peter) was being a hypocrite when he lived as
the Gentiles did and then, when those from James came,
started acting like a Jew again.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
.
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| User: "someone" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
29 Mar 2005 04:53:38 PM |
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You are correct in that He said it to the disciples.
We must bear in mind though, that the disciples were
the ones he sent out. The disciples in turn, set
authorities in the various churches, but never gave
them equal authority with themselves.
What authority did they give them?
No, it was not built upon Peter. Peter was merely the
first to confess Christ as the Christ and so, Jesus
responded to that. Jesus gave the same authority to
the other disciples, later.
I thought Jesus said to Peter, "Upon this rock I build my Church".
Paul did not tell Peter he was wrong about what being a
follower of Christ meant. He pointed out to Peter,
that he (Peter) was being a hypocrite when he lived as
the Gentiles did and then, when those from James came,
started acting like a Jew again.
I thought that Peter said that people should follow the laws given by
God to the Jews, the same as the Jews did, and that Paul told him he
was wrong.
God said to Moses, Numbers 9:14 : 'An alien living among you who wants
to celebrate the Lord's Passover must do so in accordance with its
rules and regulations. You must have the same regulations for the alien
and the native-born.'
Which I think suggests that it is the same laws for all, which is what
Peter said.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
30 Mar 2005 02:05:55 PM |
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On 29 Mar 2005 08:53:38 -0800, while wishing I would go
away, "someone" <glenn.spigel@btinternet.com> said:
You are correct in that He said it to the disciples.
We must bear in mind though, that the disciples were
the ones he sent out. The disciples in turn, set
authorities in the various churches, but never gave
them equal authority with themselves.
What authority did they give them?
Authority to run their local church.
No, it was not built upon Peter. Peter was merely the
first to confess Christ as the Christ and so, Jesus
responded to that. Jesus gave the same authority to
the other disciples, later.
I thought Jesus said to Peter, "Upon this rock I build my Church".
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and
upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of
hell shall not prevail against it." - Matthew 16:18
Peter = petros - a piece of rock.
Rock = petra - a mass of rock.
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art a piece of
rock, and upon this massive rock I will build my
church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against
it." - Matthew 16:18
Two different expressions. The "massive rock" was the
confession of Christ as Christ. Peter was a piece of
that massive rock, because he confessed Christ.
Paul did not tell Peter he was wrong about what being a
follower of Christ meant. He pointed out to Peter,
that he (Peter) was being a hypocrite when he lived as
the Gentiles did and then, when those from James came,
started acting like a Jew again.
I thought that Peter said that people should follow the laws given by
God to the Jews, the same as the Jews did, and that Paul told him he
was wrong.
Where did Peter say that?
God said to Moses, Numbers 9:14 : 'An alien living among you who wants
to celebrate the Lord's Passover must do so in accordance with its
rules and regulations. You must have the same regulations for the alien
and the native-born.'
Which I think suggests that it is the same laws for all, which is what
Peter said.
We're not discussing celebrating the Passover. We are
discussing ones whole life and you need to show where
Peter said that.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
.
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| User: "someone4" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
18 Apr 2005 12:59:43 PM |
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Hello Pastor Dave,
Sorry for the late reply,
You are correct in that He said it to the disciples.
We must bear in mind though, that the disciples were
the ones he sent out. The disciples in turn, set
authorities in the various churches, but never gave
them equal authority with themselves.
What authority did they give them?
Authority to run their local church.
So this is not the same authority as the disciples had.
No, it was not built upon Peter. Peter was merely the
first to confess Christ as the Christ and so, Jesus
responded to that. Jesus gave the same authority to
the other disciples, later.
I thought Jesus said to Peter, "Upon this rock I build my Church".
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and
upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of
hell shall not prevail against it." - Matthew 16:18
Peter = petros - a piece of rock.
Rock = petra - a mass of rock.
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art a piece of
rock, and upon this massive rock I will build my
church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against
it." - Matthew 16:18
What language is this in, and what language did Jesus speak?
Two different expressions. The "massive rock" was the
confession of Christ as Christ. Peter was a piece of
that massive rock, because he confessed Christ.
Paul did not tell Peter he was wrong about what being a
follower of Christ meant. He pointed out to Peter,
that he (Peter) was being a hypocrite when he lived as
the Gentiles did and then, when those from James came,
started acting like a Jew again.
I thought that Peter said that people should follow the laws given by
God to the Jews, the same as the Jews did, and that Paul told him he
was wrong.
Where did Peter say that?
Well Paul says that Peter said it Galatians 2:11-14
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was
clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to
eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and
separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who
belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his
hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the
gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you
live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force
Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
God said to Moses, Numbers 9:14 : 'An alien living among you who
wants
to celebrate the Lord's Passover must do so in accordance with its
rules and regulations. You must have the same regulations for the
alien
and the native-born.'
Which I think suggests that it is the same laws for all, which is
what
Peter said.
We're not discussing celebrating the Passover. We are
discussing ones whole life and you need to show where
Peter said that.
I have shown you that Paul says that Peter said that, and that God said
a similar thing to Moses, "You must have the same regulations for the
alien and the native-born."
.
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| User: "Antagonist for God" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
18 Apr 2005 02:38:30 PM |
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On 18 Apr 2005 05:59:43 -0700, "someone4"
<glenn.spigel4@btinternet.com> spake thusly:
Hello Pastor Dave,
Sorry for the late reply,
You are correct in that He said it to the disciples.
We must bear in mind though, that the disciples were
the ones he sent out. The disciples in turn, set
authorities in the various churches, but never gave
them equal authority with themselves.
What authority did they give them?
Authority to run their local church.
So this is not the same authority as the disciples had.
No.
No, it was not built upon Peter. Peter was merely the
first to confess Christ as the Christ and so, Jesus
responded to that. Jesus gave the same authority to
the other disciples, later.
I thought Jesus said to Peter, "Upon this rock I build my Church".
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and
upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of
hell shall not prevail against it." - Matthew 16:18
Peter = petros - a piece of rock.
Rock = petra - a mass of rock.
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art a piece of
rock, and upon this massive rock I will build my
church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against
it." - Matthew 16:18
What language is this in, and what language did Jesus speak?
Does it matter? Are you questioning the Scripture now?
Two different expressions. The "massive rock" was the
confession of Christ as Christ. Peter was a piece of
that massive rock, because he confessed Christ.
Paul did not tell Peter he was wrong about what being a
follower of Christ meant. He pointed out to Peter,
that he (Peter) was being a hypocrite when he lived as
the Gentiles did and then, when those from James came,
started acting like a Jew again.
I thought that Peter said that people should follow the laws given by
God to the Jews, the same as the Jews did, and that Paul told him he
was wrong.
Where did Peter say that?
Well Paul says that Peter said it Galatians 2:11-14
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was
clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to
eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and
separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who
belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his
hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the
gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you
live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force
Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
Peter originally thought that only Jews could be
Christians. He was corrected (Acts 10). After that,
he did not feel that way anymore (Acts 10). Peter must
have begun to live and eat like a Gentile, which is why
Paul said what he said to him. Peter was being a
hypocrite, when those from James came around and he
started acting like he lived as a Jew.
God said to Moses, Numbers 9:14 : 'An alien living
among you who wants to celebrate the Lord's
Passover must do so in accordance with its rules
and regulations. You must have the same regulations
for the alien and the native-born.'
Which I think suggests that it is the same laws for all,
which is what Peter said.
We're not discussing celebrating the Passover. We are
discussing ones whole life and you need to show where
Peter said that.
I have shown you that Paul says that Peter said that,
and that God said a similar thing to Moses, "You must
have the same regulations for the alien and the native-born."
Paul never said to Peter, "All must be under the Jewish
laws". Paul simply told Peter to stop being a
hypocrite. Don't live like a Gentile and then pretend
to be living like a Jew when those from James come
around. Paul did not say that Peter living like a
Gentile was wrong. He said that Peter's hypocrisy in
the matter was wrong.
--
Antagonist for God
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
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| User: "someone4" |
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| Title: Re: happy Eostre, you deluded fuckwits |
18 Apr 2005 03:23:55 PM |
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I thought Jesus said to Peter, "Upon this rock I build my Church".
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and
upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of
hell shall not prevail against it." - Matthew 16:18
Peter = petros - a piece of rock.
Rock = petra - a mass of rock.
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art a piece of
rock, and upon this massive rock I will build my
church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against
it." - Matthew 16:18
What language is this in, and what language did Jesus speak?
Does it matter? Are you questioning the Scripture now?
Well if the word play only exists in Greek for example and not in the
original language then I am questioning the translation yes. Obviously
it doesn't translate into English like Pastor Dave has translated it,
or rather the translations I have seen have not taken his
interpretation.
Two different expressions. The "massive rock" was the
confession of Christ as Christ. Peter was a piece of
that massive rock, because he confessed Christ.
Paul did not tell Peter he was wrong about what being a
follower of Christ meant. He pointed out to Peter,
that he (Peter) was being a hypocrite when he lived as
the Gentiles did and then, when those from James came,
started acting like a Jew again.
I thought that Peter said that people should follow the laws given
by
God to the Jews, the same as the Jews did, and that Paul told him
he
was wrong.
Where did Peter say that?
Well Paul says that Peter said it Galatians 2:11-14
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he
was
clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used
to
eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back
and
separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who
belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in
his
hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of
the
gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you
live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you
force
Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
Peter originally thought that only Jews could be
Christians. He was corrected (Acts 10). After that,
he did not feel that way anymore (Acts 10). Peter must
have begun to live and eat like a Gentile, which is why
Paul said what he said to him. Peter was being a
hypocrite, when those from James came around and he
started acting like he lived as a Jew.
It wasn't only that though, Paul said to Peter "How is it then, that
you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?"
Which suggests that Peter did say that everyone should follow the
Jewish Customs.
<snip>
God said to Moses, Numbers 9:14 : 'An alien living
among you who wants to celebrate the Lord's
Passover must do so in accordance with its rules
and regulations. You must have the same regulations
for the alien and the native-born.'
Which I think suggests that it is the same laws for all,
which is what Peter said.
We're not discussing celebrating the Passover. We are
discussing ones whole life and you need to show where
Peter said that.
I have shown you that Paul says that Peter said that,
and that God said a similar thing to Moses, "You must
have the same regulations for the alien and the native-born."
Paul never said to Peter, "All must be under the Jewish
laws". Paul simply told Peter to stop being a
hypocrite. Don't live like a Gentile and then pretend
to be living like a Jew when those from James come
around. Paul did not say that Peter living like a
Gentile was wrong. He said that Peter's hypocrisy in
the matter was wrong.
It was not that Paul said to Peter anything about being under Jewish
law. It was that Peter said that followers of God should be under God's
laws, and God said to Moses pretty much the same thing, "You must have
the same regulations for the alien and the native-born."
Peter was given authority to talk for Jesus from Jesus himself
according to the scripture. Paul had never even met Jesus, and we only
have his word for it that he wasn't still working for the Romans,
although later I think he claimed there were witnesses.
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