Happy Holydays



 Religions > Atheism > Happy Holydays

LINK TO THIS PAGE  


rating :  0   |  0


  Page 1 of 1

1

 
Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Dante Alighieri"
Date: 07 Dec 2007 08:59:22 PM
Object: Happy Holydays
<*.*>The beauty of it all, you have to die to see Heaven.
<*.*>If I promise you entry to this city, for a reasonable fee
<*.*>of course, you have to die to get there, or not, and
<*.*>prove me right, or wrong. But God is everywhere
<*.*>at all times. I see God as an allegory representing
<*.*>whatever force created the universe.
But another individual states the non-existence of this never seen
abstract thought is "fact" ... i.e., it does not exist.
It only exists, our knowledge of it, in thought only, maybe.
But it must exist in our thoughts for us to discuss it.
TRUE Statement: God and Heaven positively exist in our thoughts.
They may or may not exist in reality. I have never seen them.
But I have never seen an x-ray, only the result of its presence.
I have never seen a radio wave or particle, depending upon which theory you view.
But I believe that radio signals can be generated and received.
I watch TV (FM radios is the sound portion broadcast separately from the video?).
I listen to the radio. I say radio waves exist. My proof they exist?
They exist in my thoughts? I claim I use these radio waves by "amplifying them"
uhhhh, by using them to modulate electrcity flow to vibrate a plastic or paper cone
that vibrates the air that causes my cilia and eardrum to vibrate generating whatever that
my brain interprets into something I "see" with my brain, my hearing is in my thoughts.
Being in my thoughts does not prove existence.
I can show you a picture on a TV monitor screen. That picture enters into our thoughts.
I can place a pencil in your hand. We both felt the existence of that pencil.
We both see the existence of that pencil, in our minds, in our thoughts.
Being in our thoughts does not prove existence.
I am happy to have acquaintances, a family, a house, a car, a TV, a computer, a job, and
many other things that I believe exist because other people can see them in their minds as
I see them them in my mind. Being in my thoughts does not prove existence.
For quite a large number of people I am very happy that I exist in their minds and they in mine.
;-)
.. . . . . . .
...
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.

User: "thomas p."

Title: Re: Happy Holydays 10 Dec 2007 12:17:46 AM
"Dante Alighieri" <Michel.angelo@heavens.gate> skrev i en meddelelse
news:822kl3pib6em7gv57mg03oo7o8gu1200sl@4ax.com...

<*.*>The beauty of it all, you have to die to see Heaven.
<*.*>If I promise you entry to this city, for a reasonable fee
<*.*>of course, you have to die to get there, or not, and
<*.*>prove me right, or wrong. But God is everywhere
<*.*>at all times. I see God as an allegory representing
<*.*>whatever force created the universe.

But another individual states the non-existence of this never seen
abstract thought is "fact" ... i.e., it does not exist.

It only exists, our knowledge of it, in thought only, maybe.
But it must exist in our thoughts for us to discuss it.

TRUE Statement: God and Heaven positively exist in our thoughts.

They may or may not exist in reality. I have never seen them.
But I have never seen an x-ray, only the result of its presence.
I have never seen a radio wave or particle, depending upon which theory
you view.
But I believe that radio signals can be generated and received.
I watch TV (FM radios is the sound portion broadcast separately from the
video?).
I listen to the radio. I say radio waves exist. My proof they exist?
They exist in my thoughts? I claim I use these radio waves by
"amplifying them"
uhhhh, by using them to modulate electrcity flow to vibrate a plastic or
paper cone
that vibrates the air that causes my cilia and eardrum to vibrate
generating whatever that
my brain interprets into something I "see" with my brain, my hearing is in
my thoughts.
Being in my thoughts does not prove existence.
I can show you a picture on a TV monitor screen. That picture enters into
our thoughts.
I can place a pencil in your hand. We both felt the existence of that
pencil.
We both see the existence of that pencil, in our minds, in our thoughts.
Being in our thoughts does not prove existence.

I am happy to have acquaintances, a family, a house, a car, a TV, a
computer, a job, and
many other things that I believe exist because other people can see them
in their minds as
I see them them in my mind. Being in my thoughts does not prove
existence.
For quite a large number of people I am very happy that I exist in their
minds and they in mine.

Using solipsism as an argument is an act of desperation.
.
User: "Dante Alighieri"

Title: Re: Happy Holydays 10 Dec 2007 08:23:33 PM
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 07:17:46 +0100, "thomas p." <gudloos@yahoo.com> wrote:
<*.*>
<*.*>"Dante Alighieri" <Michel.angelo@heavens.gate> skrev i en meddelelse
<*.*>news:822kl3pib6em7gv57mg03oo7o8gu1200sl@4ax.com...
<*.*>> <*.*>The beauty of it all, you have to die to see Heaven.
<*.*>> <*.*>If I promise you entry to this city, for a reasonable fee
<*.*>> <*.*>of course, you have to die to get there, or not, and
<*.*>> <*.*>prove me right, or wrong. But God is everywhere
<*.*>> <*.*>at all times. I see God as an allegory representing
<*.*>> <*.*>whatever force created the universe.
<*.*>>
<*.*>
<*.*>Using solipsism as an argument is an act of desperation.
<*.*>
1. The theory that the self is the only thing that can be known and verified.
2. The theory or view that the self is the only reality.
Nay, the self exists only in the mind and actually cannot be verified. for the verification exists only in the mind and
is invalid.
.. . . . . . .
ROTFL
...
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.


User: "Robibnikoff"

Title: Re: Happy Holydays 09 Dec 2007 05:28:48 PM
"Dante Alighieri" <Michel.angelo@heavens.gate> wrote>

TRUE Statement: God and Heaven positively exist in our thoughts.

FALSE, liar.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
.
User: "Hatter"

Title: Re: Happy Holydays 10 Dec 2007 08:42:49 AM
On Dec 9, 6:28 pm, "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Dante Alighieri" <Michel.ang...@heavens.gate> wrote>

TRUE Statement: God and Heaven positively exist in our thoughts.


FALSE, liar.
--

Actually, it does exist in my thoughts, just as The Happy Hunting
Grounds, Ragnorok, Bedrock, Bedford Falls, Oz, Wonderland, Narnia,
Atlantis, Middle Earth, GreyHawk, Pern, Shannara, and Metropolis.
Why people expect heaven to get some special treatment apart from the
rest of the locations on this list is somewhat perplexing.
Hatter
.
User: "Robibnikoff"

Title: Re: Happy Holydays 10 Dec 2007 12:13:58 PM
"Hatter" <Hatter23@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:170501e8-2b18-43c5-9f55-a102cc440d2c@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

On Dec 9, 6:28 pm, "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Dante Alighieri" <Michel.ang...@heavens.gate> wrote>

TRUE Statement: God and Heaven positively exist in our thoughts.


FALSE, liar.
--

Actually, it does exist in my thoughts, just as The Happy Hunting
Grounds, Ragnorok, Bedrock, Bedford Falls, Oz, Wonderland, Narnia,
Atlantis, Middle Earth, GreyHawk, Pern, Shannara, and Metropolis.

Perhaps. Does it exist positively? Absolutely not. Not in MY thoughts,
anyway.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
.
User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: Happy Holydays 10 Dec 2007 03:29:31 PM
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 13:13:58 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:


"Hatter" <Hatter23@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:170501e8-2b18-43c5-9f55-a102cc440d2c@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

On Dec 9, 6:28 pm, "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Dante Alighieri" <Michel.ang...@heavens.gate> wrote>

TRUE Statement: God and Heaven positively exist in our thoughts.


FALSE, liar.
--

Actually, it does exist in my thoughts, just as The Happy Hunting
Grounds, Ragnorok, Bedrock, Bedford Falls, Oz, Wonderland, Narnia,
Atlantis, Middle Earth, GreyHawk, Pern, Shannara, and Metropolis.


Perhaps. Does it exist positively? Absolutely not. Not in MY thoughts,
anyway.

Nor mine.
.



User: "Dante Alighieri"

Title: Re: Happy Holydays 09 Dec 2007 08:32:36 PM
On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 18:28:48 -0500, "Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
<*.*>> TRUE Statement: God and Heaven positively exist in our thoughts.
<*.*>
<*.*>FALSE, liar.
If not in your thoughts:
1) How could you have responded to any post mentioning God?
OR
2) You responded without thinking? uhhhhhh, no, you lied about not thinking.
.. . . . . . .
ROTFLMAO
...
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.
User: "Robibnikoff"

Title: Re: Happy Holydays 10 Dec 2007 08:18:23 AM
"Dante Alighieri" <Michel.angelo@heavens.gate> wrote in message
news:039pl3pg1gvell7qqqajmcue4t15aphtlb@4ax.com...

On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 18:28:48 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

<*.*>> TRUE Statement: God and Heaven positively exist in our thoughts.
<*.*>
<*.*>FALSE, liar.


If not in your thoughts:
1) How could you have responded to any post mentioning God?
OR
2) You responded without thinking? uhhhhhh, no, you lied about not
thinking.

Hardly, liar. Prove me wrong, troll.
Prove that any god and heaven "positively exist" in my thoughts. Be sure to
show all your work.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
.

User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: Happy Holydays 09 Dec 2007 11:10:36 PM
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 03:32:36 +0100, Dante Alighieri
<Michel.angelo@heavens.gate> wrote:

On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 18:28:48 -0500, "Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

<*.*>> TRUE Statement: God and Heaven positively exist in our thoughts.
<*.*>
<*.*>FALSE, liar.


If not in your thoughts:
1) How could you have responded to any post mentioning God?

How could have responded to any post mentioning Hwertoiwejhrcoiherf?
QED, wanker.
.

User: "les_on_usenet"

Title: Re: Happy Holydays 10 Dec 2007 04:36:22 AM
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 03:32:36 +0100, Dante Alighieri
<Michel.angelo@heavens.gate> wrote:

On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 18:28:48 -0500, "Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

<*.*>> TRUE Statement: God and Heaven positively exist in our thoughts.
<*.*>
<*.*>FALSE, liar.

It is time we abolished these so called Holy Days. Why should
everybody have to be forced to take breaks from work at times that
suit just one cult and yet othercults don't get the same priviledges?
I say it is time to abolish ' holy days' and in their place introduce
'Freedom Days'.
Each year all employees will be allocated a certain number of Freedom
days by law equitably. They are entitled to take these days whenever
they prefer regardless of the employers wishes. Christians can, if
they wish, choose to take time off do do whatever religious things
they want to do. Thus they are guaranteed the right to practise their
religion freely as they wish . The same would applyto all the other
religions where it does not apply now. The rest of us can then
allocate our days to whatever suits us. Our birthday perhaps?
Everybody gets the same free time everybody gets to do
whatever they wish with it. (within the law of course)
Distributing time off like this would help avoid overcrowding
on the roads and places where people like to spent their
leisure and prices will not be hiked to take advantage. Employers
would no longer be required to cease operation on certain days
disrupting normal business
There could still be 'National days' as well so we can all join
in to celebrate important days in everybodies lives, the New Year
or pehaps the Winter or Summer Solstices for example. Some
countries have days when they celebrate their nation (Here
we cannot help but celebrate being British every day so don't
need a special day to do it:-)
Who could possibly object to such an equitable arrangement
where all are satified? Christians need not feel guilty we
are all forced to take time off when it suits them. They
need not feel guilty that other religions don't get the
same priviledges and they will undoubtedly be pleased
they can celebrate their Christ Mass privately and
undisturbed and we will be pleased that they do.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
.
User: "Michelle Malkin"

Title: Re: Happy Holydays 10 Dec 2007 05:52:33 AM
"les_on_usenet" <delete-unread@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:sr3ql3ptoumf8fcvn5bcm0pgp73brao0dp@4ax.com...

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 03:32:36 +0100, Dante Alighieri
<Michel.angelo@heavens.gate> wrote:

On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 18:28:48 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

<*.*>> TRUE Statement: God and Heaven positively exist in our thoughts.
<*.*>
<*.*>FALSE, liar.


It is time we abolished these so called Holy Days. Why should
everybody have to be forced to take breaks from work at times that
suit just one cult and yet othercults don't get the same priviledges?

I say it is time to abolish ' holy days' and in their place introduce
'Freedom Days'.

Each year all employees will be allocated a certain number of Freedom
days by law equitably. They are entitled to take these days whenever
they prefer regardless of the employers wishes. Christians can, if
they wish, choose to take time off do do whatever religious things
they want to do. Thus they are guaranteed the right to practise their
religion freely as they wish . The same would applyto all the other
religions where it does not apply now. The rest of us can then
allocate our days to whatever suits us. Our birthday perhaps?

Everybody gets the same free time everybody gets to do
whatever they wish with it. (within the law of course)

Distributing time off like this would help avoid overcrowding
on the roads and places where people like to spent their
leisure and prices will not be hiked to take advantage. Employers
would no longer be required to cease operation on certain days
disrupting normal business

There could still be 'National days' as well so we can all join
in to celebrate important days in everybodies lives, the New Year
or pehaps the Winter or Summer Solstices for example. Some
countries have days when they celebrate their nation (Here
we cannot help but celebrate being British every day so don't
need a special day to do it:-)

Who could possibly object to such an equitable arrangement
where all are satified? Christians need not feel guilty we
are all forced to take time off when it suits them. They
need not feel guilty that other religions don't get the
same priviledges and they will undoubtedly be pleased
they can celebrate their Christ Mass privately and
undisturbed and we will be pleased that they do.

This makes so much sense that the religious
fanatics will have to be against it. If they can't
force other people into acknowledging their
holy days, they lose their purpose in life.
Stupid crossposting removed.
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
BAAWA Knight & Bible Thumper Thumper
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
When fascism comes to America, it will be
wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross -
Sinclair Lewis




Les Hellawell
Greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County

.

User: "les_on_usenet"

Title: Re: Happy Holydays 10 Dec 2007 05:51:59 AM
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 10:36:22 +0000, les_on_usenet
<delete-unread@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 03:32:36 +0100, Dante Alighieri
<Michel.angelo@heavens.gate> wrote:

On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 18:28:48 -0500, "Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

<*.*>> TRUE Statement: God and Heaven positively exist in our thoughts.
<*.*>
<*.*>FALSE, liar.


It is time we abolished these so called Holy Days. Why should
everybody have to be forced to take breaks from work at times that
suit just one cult and yet othercults don't get the same priviledges?

BTW isn't forcing everybody to take time off on certain days to
satisfy a particular religions needs tantamount to establishing
religion, something forbidden under the ageing US Constitution,
especially when the name of the day is officially changed to
a religious name?
Who let the Christians get away with that one?
Les Hellawell
Greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
.

User: "Dante Alighieri"

Title: Re: Happy Holydays 10 Dec 2007 08:16:09 PM
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 10:36:22 +0000, les_on_usenet <delete-unread@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
<*.*>YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
We do celebrate the Yule or Winter Solstice.
Our Christmas Carol calls it the twelve days of Christmas.
New Year's Day is now All Saints following All Hallows Even.
The gap in time between the old and the new year when spirits
roam free. A harvest festival, a little later than the autumnal equinox.
Pâques, Easter, approximates the spring equinox, Easter, the goddess
of dawn and of fertility represented by eggs and bunnies.
Pâques is meaning Passover and Easter both, from Pascal Moon.
No replacement holiday for summer solstice when Christians
are too busy or on vacation and don't have the time for a Holy Day.
Sent to you via mobile phone from the magic roundabout.
On my way to West Amesbury to see the unusual rock formations.
I have not seen any of the anti-social behaviour here reported by
BBC news on my mobile although six arrests were made yesterday.
WILTSHIRE - The Ready Meal County.
Dante
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.
User: "les_on_usenet"

Title: Re: Happy Holydays 11 Dec 2007 04:28:26 AM
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 03:16:09 +0100, Dante Alighieri
<Michel.angelo@heavens.gate> wrote:

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 10:36:22 +0000, les_on_usenet <delete-unread@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:

<*.*>YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County

We do celebrate the Yule or Winter Solstice.
Our Christmas Carol calls it the twelve days of Christmas.

New Year's Day is now All Saints following All Hallows Even.
The gap in time between the old and the new year when spirits
roam free. A harvest festival, a little later than the autumnal equinox.

Pâques, Easter, approximates the spring equinox, Easter, the goddess
of dawn and of fertility represented by eggs and bunnies.
Pâques is meaning Passover and Easter both, from Pascal Moon.

No replacement holiday for summer solstice when Christians
are too busy or on vacation and don't have the time for a Holy Day.

Sent to you via mobile phone from the magic roundabout.
On my way to West Amesbury to see the unusual rock formations.

Preseli rocks?

I have not seen any of the anti-social behaviour here reported by
BBC news on my mobile although six arrests were made yesterday.
WILTSHIRE - The Ready Meal County.

No Wilting here - it's too cowd for that!
Les Hellawell
Greetings from
YORKSHIRE - God's own County
.

User: "les_on_usenet"

Title: Re: Happy Holydays 11 Dec 2007 03:15:26 AM
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 03:16:09 +0100, Dante Alighieri
<Michel.angelo@heavens.gate> wrote:

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 10:36:22 +0000, les_on_usenet <delete-unread@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:

<*.*>YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County

We do celebrate the Yule or Winter Solstice.
Our Christmas Carol calls it the twelve days of Christmas.

The Winter Solstice is over when your 12 nights begin.
but what the heck, Christianity is your fantasy you can
do whatever you like with it including moving days around

New Year's Day is now All Saints following All Hallows Even.

Whatever you like, its nowt to do with me or the real
world.

The gap in time between the old and the new year when spirits
roam free. A harvest festival, a little later than the autumnal equinox.

Pâques, Easter, approximates the spring equinox, Easter, the goddess
of dawn and of fertility represented by eggs and bunnies.
Pâques is meaning Passover and Easter both, from Pascal Moon.

Hey its a free world you are even free to leave it if
you wish
no wilting here:
Les Hellawell
Greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
.
User: "Dante Alighieri"

Title: Re: Happy Holydays 11 Dec 2007 04:17:06 AM
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:15:26 +0000, les_on_usenet <delete-unread@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
<*.*>The Winter Solstice is over when your 12 nights begin.
Not my twelve nights, Shakespeare wrote of them, they precede
me by a few years. But yes, mine by choice I have a two week
party over a few seconds anyday.
The solstice lasts a fraction of a second as the sun's
path tangents the tropic and heads north or a few minutes
as the sun is passes over the tropic of Capricorn, take yer pick.
and not always the same date. Modern Christmas is a fixed date.
The Yule festival was originally a variable.
A schens neichs joah!
Dante
.. . . . . . .
...
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.





User: "Dante Alighieri"

Title: Re: Happy Holydays 09 Dec 2007 08:36:30 PM
On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 18:28:48 -0500, "Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
<*.*>> TRUE Statement: God and Heaven positively exist in our thoughts.
<*.*>
<*.*>FALSE, liar.
If not in your thoughts:
1) How could you have responded to any post mentioning God?
OR
2) You responded without thinking? uhhhhhh, no, you lied about not thinking.
.. . . . . . .
ROTFLMAO
...
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.
User: "Robibnikoff"

Title: Re: Happy Holydays 10 Dec 2007 08:19:06 AM
"Dante Alighieri" <Michel.angelo@heavens.gate> wrote in message
news:ah9pl3tf97h3bmd4pico4q95kdt0b9svb9@4ax.com...

On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 18:28:48 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

<*.*>> TRUE Statement: God and Heaven positively exist in our thoughts.
<*.*>
<*.*>FALSE, liar.


If not in your thoughts:

So stupid you had to post the same ***** twice? Fucking moron.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
.



User: "Alien Hit & Run"

Title: Re: Happy Holydays 10 Dec 2007 01:48:39 PM
On Sat, 08 Dec 2007 03:59:22 +0100, Dante Alighieri
<Michel.angelo@heavens.gate> wrote:

TRUE Statement: God and Heaven positively exist in our thoughts.

Only as much as do the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and Captain
Picard. I don't understand, this is a serious question not intended to
mock or anything, I just don't get it: Why do some folks, yourself
included, seem to consider this sense of "existence" to be any way,
shape or form "meaningful"? Or perhaps put another way, why is it any
more meaningful to the concepts of God and Heaven than it is for the
concepts of Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy et al?
.
User: "Dante Alighieri"

Title: Re: Happy Holydays 10 Dec 2007 08:30:18 PM
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 14:48:39 -0500, Alien Hit & Run <alienhitnrun@fugitive.com> wrote:
<*.*>On Sat, 08 Dec 2007 03:59:22 +0100, Dante Alighieri
<*.*><Michel.angelo@heavens.gate> wrote:
<*.*>
<*.*>> TRUE Statement: God and Heaven positively exist in our thoughts.
<*.*>
<*.*>Only as much as do the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and Captain
<*.*>Picard. I don't understand, this is a serious question not intended to
<*.*>mock or anything, I just don't get it: Why do some folks, yourself
<*.*>included, seem to consider this sense of "existence" to be any way,
<*.*>shape or form "meaningful"? Or perhaps put another way, why is it any
<*.*>more meaningful to the concepts of God and Heaven than it is for the
<*.*>concepts of Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy et al?
Simple. Gods, although not real, were developed as real explanations for
the unexplainable. The others you mention were created as fiction from the onset.
.. . . . . . .
...
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.



  Page 1 of 1

1

 


Related Articles
 

NEWER

pg.3585     pg.2749     pg.2106     pg.1612     pg.1232     pg.940     pg.716     pg.544     pg.412     pg.311     pg.234     pg.175     pg.130     pg.96     pg.70     pg.50     pg.35     pg.24     pg.16     pg.10     pg.6     pg.3     pg.1

OLDER