| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Sound of Trumpet" |
| Date: |
07 Apr 2006 05:46:01 PM |
| Object: |
Has Science Killed God? |
http://www.victorclaveau.com/htm_html/Essays%20on%20Science/has_science_killed_god.htm
Has Science Killed God?
NORMAN PODHORETZ
Norman Podhoretz traces, from the time of Galileo, the various
conflicts and connections between religion and science. While it was in
becoming "modest" that the human mind seemed to have grown to
superhuman proportions, it soon forgot, in the headiness of its
accomplishments, the respect for its own limits. Now the idea spread
that reason in the form of science had shown that it, not God, was
omnipotent and was on its way to usurping the divine attribute of
omniscience as well.
The single most important phenomenon of the millennium just ended is
the dog that didn't bark. But the second most important was the dog
that did.
As to the dog that barked. It was, surely, the development of modern
science. This process started not at the beginning of the millennium
but halfway through it getting seriously underway with Copernicus in
the middle of the 16th century and picking up steam in the early 17th.
Yet in the four centuries since Copernicus proved that Earth revolves
around the sun rather than the other was around, more has been learned
about the natural world than was known in all the ages of human
existence that came be fore them.
This seems, when one pauses to reflect on it, very odd. After all,
there can be no doubt that some of the greatest intellects ever to
appear on Earth were active 2,000 years ago and earlier. Among the
ancient Hebrews and the ancient Greeks alone, there were thinkers who
have never been surpassed in profundity, originality, vision and
wisdom.
Some of these ancient peoples even applied themselves to mathematics
and the sciences, and up through the Middle Ages their work continued
to exert a mighty influence on Jewish, Christian and Muslim
philosophers and theologians alike. Thus Scholasticism, the school of
thought rejected by modern science (the "new philosophy," in the
parlance of the time) was almost as deeply rooted in the Greeks,
especially Aristotle, as in the Bible. Indeed, the most formidable of
the Scholastics, St. Thomas Aquinas, dedicated himself to reconciling
reason (equated with Aristotle) and revelation (the Scriptures). And in
the course of pursuing this enterprise, Aquinas had much to say about
the physical nature of the universe.
What, then, can explain why most, if not all, of what these great minds
thought they knew about the nature of the material world was wrong?
Conversely, how did it happen that Copernicus, and then Kepler and
Galileo (the two giants who came right after him), and those who
followed in their footsteps all the way to the present day, got most,
if not all, of it right?
One might imagine that so huge and consequential a question would be
hard to answer. But no. Galileo himself answered it. The Scholastics,
he clearly recognized, were interested only in explaining why things
were as they were, and their explanations (with more than a little help
from Aristotle) took the form of logical deduction from the truths they
already possessed through revelation. Galileo's revolutionary aim, by
contrast, was to discover how things were by observing and measuring
them.
Galileo never claimed that these new experimental procedures could
uncover anything about the cause or the origin of the forces being
measured and observed. But through such procedures, he could and did
find evidence that the Scholastics, and Aristotle before them, were
wildly mistaken about the physical universe. Speaking of phenomena that
he had spotted through the telescope he built - phenomena that were
ruled out by the prevailing Scholastic theory - Galileo declared:
"We have in our new age accidents and observations, and such, that I
question not in the least, but if Aristotle were now alive, they would
make him change his opinion."
Well, Aristotle might, but the professor at Padua was no Aristotle. He
declined even to look through the telescope Galileo had built. Why
bother? So far as he was concerned, nothing he might see could shed
light on the human purposes it served.
Galileo took the opposite tack. It was, he argued, beyond the power of
the human mind unaided by revelation to penetrate those purposes.
Therefore, it would be better for people "to pronounce that wise,
ingenious, and modest sentence, 'I know it not;'" and not (like
the Scholastics) "suffer to escape from their mouths and pens all
manner of extravagance." Even though Galileo, while famously forced
by the Church to recant his belief in the heliocentric cosmology of
Copernicus, held on privately to that belief, he did not reject
Christianity. He also contended that science did not contradict the
Bible as properly understood. But he did, willy-nilly, sever the
connection forged most fully by Aquinas between reason and revelation.
To the great English poet John Donne, who lived in the early days of
this intellectual revolution, it was a disaster:
And new philosophy calls all in doubt,
The element of fire is quite put out;
The Sun is lost, and the earth, and no man's wit
Can well direct him where to look for it...
Tis all in pieces, all coherence gone...
However, Donne's fellow countryman and near contemporary, Sir Francis
Bacon, saw it all very differently. In Bacon's view, the new
philosophy was no threat - not to religious faith, not to the wit of
man and not to the social order. By separating out "the absurd
mixture of matters divine and human" that the Scholastics had
concocted, all the new philosophy did was to render unto faith the
things that are faith's." To understand the word of God, we now had
to "quit the small vessel of human reason, and put ourselves on board
the ship of the Church, which alone possesses the divine needle for
justly shaping the course." Furthermore, in submitting to the limits
of human reason, we would lay bare the true wonders of God's
creation, and we would thereby ultimately be led to worship him all the
more.
This prediction may have been sincere or, more likely, a clever piece
of apologetics, but in any case it turned out to be wrong about the
effect of the new philosophy on religious belief. As science
progressed, faith in the old sense grew correspondingly weaker, and by
the 18th century - which was not dubbed the Age of Reason for nothing
- it had been diluted into the depersonalized generalities of deism.
In the meantime, the human mind unaided by revelation was showing such
enormous power that even a poet like Alexander Pope (who was a Roman
Catholic) fell into a state of veneration as before a saint in
contemplating the figure of the preeminent scientist of his day, Sir
Isaac Newton:
Nature and Nature's law lay hid in night, God said, 'Let Newton
be,' and all was light
The paradox was that this apparently unlimited power had been unleashed
precisely by the willingness of reason to become (in Galileo's term)
more "modest." In restricting itself to what it was capable of
discovering, instead of presuming to answer the ultimate questions that
were beyond its ken, the human mind had rapidly acquired a vaster store
of knowledge about the physical universe than it had managed to gather
in all the years gone by.
By the 19th century, with the advent of Charles Darwin, the new
philosophy had descended from the planets to the apes. And with this
shift, the so-called war between religion and science, which Bacon had
denied would ever occur, heated up to a veritable frenzy. Like so many
of the scientists who had come before him, Darwin protested that he was
not a nonbeliever and he insisted that his discovery of the descent of
man from the apes did not refute the essential truths of religion.
But to little avail. There were (and still are) desperate efforts by
many Christians either to refute Darwin or to find a way of maintaining
their faith in the biblical ac count of creation in the teeth of his
work. Great outpourings of religious enthusiasm even occurred here and
there. And yet when the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche
proclaimed toward the end of the 19th century that God was dead, he was
expressing a very wide spread feeling, often secretly held, that few
others had the nerve to articulate s boldly,
Nietzsche welcomed the death of God as a necessary precondition for the
fruition of human greatness. But his older Russian contemporary, the
great novelist Foodor Dostoevsky, like John Donne before him, was
appalled by the consequences that the victory of science over religion
were likely to bring with it. If God was dead, he said (through the
mouth of one of his characters, Ivan Karamazov), then everything was
permitted.
At this point in the story, we run into another fascinating paradox.
While it was in becoming "modest" that the human mind seemed to
have grown to superhuman proportions, it soon forgot, in the headiness
of its accomplishments, the respect for its own limits that had made
the gigantic accomplishments of reason possible in the first place. Now
the idea spread that reason in the form of science had shown that it,
not God, was omnipotent and was on its way to usurping the divine
attribute of omniscience as well.
And so it came about that modesty was replaced by the puffed-up pride
the Greeks called hubris. The likes of the Marquis de Condorcet in the
18th century and then Auguste Comte in the 19th asserted that science
need not even be restricted to the physical world; it could be adapted
to the social world just as successfully. "Social science" could
design plans for an ideal society, and in implementing them, it could
at the same time - or so the most utopian of these social engineers
expected - reshape and perfect human nature itself.
If, according to Dostoevsky, the death of God meant that everything
(evil) was now permitted, the new worshippers of reason believed that
everything (good) was now possible. But Dostoevsky was a better prophet
than the utopian rationalists on the other side, as the grisly horrors
perpetrated by the two main totalitarian systems that sprang up in the
20th century would demonstrate.
For both communism and Nazism were forms of social engineering based on
supposedly scientific foundations. The communists who took over in
Russia in 1917 explicitly saw themselves as "scientific
socialists;' carrying out the hither-to hidden laws of History as
unearthed by the mind of Karl Marx and creating as they went along the
"new Soviet man." As for the Nazis, they justified their slaughter
of Jews and others as part of a program of putatively scientific
eugenics that would purify the human race and create the higher breed
foreseen by Nietzsche in his vision of the superman.
To be sure, few worshippers of reason detected in the horrors of
totalitarianism the fingerprints of their triumph in the war between
science and religion, Quite the contrary. Many scientists and other
devotees of what has aptly been described as "the religion of
science" even supported the Soviet "experiment" (the use of this
word was itself significant) and apologized for or denied the crimes it
entailed, Conversely, they placed the blame for Nazism not on anything
connected with reason or science but on the atavistic influence of
religion and forces of irrationality and superstition that allegedly
always accompanied it.
Hence totalitarianism failed to make a dent in the hubris of the
religion of science. But the atom bomb did manage to trigger a recoil
among the physicists who had invented it. In yet another of the
paradoxes that keep cropping up here, this most vivid demonstration of
the seemingly limitless power of science brought about something of a
return to Galileo's modesty. Scientists like J. Robert Oppenheimer,
who had supervised the project, took to agonizing over what science had
wrought and were beset by doubts about its role in the total scheme of
things.
In yielding to these doubts, Oppenheimer and others had been preceded
by several scientist-philosophers, of whom the most eminent was
probably Alfred North Whitehead. In Science and the Modern World
(1925), Whitehead, from within a generally scientific worldview, raised
deep questions about the idea that science provided an exhaustive
account of reality. "Religion," he wrote approvingly, "is the
vision of something which stands beyond, behind, and within, the
passing flux of immediate things."
During this same period, there were also literary figures like T.S.
Eliot who carried forward and modernized the tradition of resistance to
the imperialistic claims of reason and science as against those of
imagination and religion. Finally, to Eliot and Whitehead were added
theologians like Jacques Maritain who, resurrecting and reconceiving
lines of argument from St. Thomas Aquinas that had once been thought
dead and buried forever, undertook to show that the truths of science
did not refute or negate the truths of religion.
Then, too, within the realm of science itself, new discoveries were
made, particularly in cosmology (where the whole thing had started)
that further encouraged a return to Galileo's modesty. In 1992 the
distinguished astronomer Robert Jastrow, while describing himself as an
agnostic, wrote a book entitled God and the Astronomers concluding that
"it is not a matter of another year, another decade of work, another
measurement, or another theory; at this moment it seems as though
science will never be able to raise the curtain on the mystery of
creation."
But the very last sentence of Mr. Jastrow's book was even more
astonishing: "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the
power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the
mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he
pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of
theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."
Evidently, as with the death of Mark Twain, reports of the death of God
have been greatly exaggerated. Against all expectation, that dog did
not in the end bark. I am not here referring to the fact that in the
United States approximately 95% of the population professes to believe
in God. No doubt this is impressive, but its impact is somewhat
lessened by the highly secularized way of life that so comfortably
coexists with it.
What strikes me as more impressive is the almost complete disappearance
in recent years of any talk about the war between science and religion.
We do talk of a "culture war," but that battle has been raging on
an entirely different front. As for science and religion, these two
formerly passionate enemies have for the moment reached an
accommodation on the ground. It is an unwritten armistice, based
(perhaps unconsciously) on the conception of the relations between the
two that was advanced by Galileo and Bacon, who rendered unto each its
own sphere of truth: to science the how of material things, and to
religion the why of them.
As Mr. Jastrow sees it, this is where the story ends. But alas, he is
correct only for the older breed of natural scientists. A new breed,
which did not yet exist in the 17th century, has come along in the
latter part of the 20th and seems likely to reignite the war between
science and religion. This new breed, made up of geneticists, molecular
biologists and biotechnologists, is in the only the early stages of its
work. Like their predecessors in other scientific fields, they have
gone very far very fast, but they have neither begun with nor yet
acquired any sense of the limits of what they can do.
A good illustration is provided by two leading pioneers of the "new
philosophy" of our own day, Francis Crick and James D. Watson, who
jointly won the Nobel Prize for discovering the structure of DNA. So
confident were these men of their powers that in the early 1970s they
entertained the idea of administering genetic tests to newborn infants
who, if they failed, were to be put to death. At the time this idea was
so shocking that Mr. Crick prudently refused to allow publication of
the BBC interview in which he had floated it, while Mr. Watson confined
his endorsement to private conversation (with me, among others).
Of course they defined "failure" as a likely predisposition to
certain diseases, so that the infanticide it entailed wore a reassuring
therapeutic mask. Yet what was to prevent the future inclusion of
standards of height or beauty or intellectual potential as necessary
qualifications for the right of a newborn to go on living?
By now, even with this terrible question still hanging in the air, we
have a philosopher like Peter Singer throwing all caution to the winds
and developing a rationale for an allegedly benevolent program of
infanticide. Mr Singer's reward for his brazen outspokenness has been
an appointment as professor of bioethics at the Princeton University
Center for Human Values (!). In response, the resistance within the
religious community is heating up at a rapid clip.
But wait. Thanks to the progress of genetic engineering, which assures
us it can rectify defects in advance, infanticide may prove
unnecessary. This sounds wonderful, but wait again. As the political
theorist Francis Fukuyama has written, the biotechnical revolution is
"on the brink" of being able to custom-design creatures who will
resemble humans but will not be governed by human nature as we have
always known it.
Unlike his namesake Francis Bacon, who greeted the first stage of
modern science with hope and enthusiasm, Mr. Fukuyama looks forward
with fear and trembling to this next stage. "To the extent that
nature is not something given to us by God or by our evolutionary
inheritance, but by human artifice, then we enter into God's own
realm with all of the frightening powers for good and evil that such an
entry implies."
I tremble even more violently than Mr. Fukuyama, but I cannot believe
that the new scientists will succeed in replacing God any more than
their predecessors managed to kill him off. The dog didn't bark in
the millennium just ended, and my guess - or perhaps I should say my
prayer - is that it will also fail to bark in the one just begun.
ACKNOWLEDGEMENT
Podhoretz, Norman. "Has Science Killed God?" Wall Street Journal
(February, 2000).
Reprinted with permission of the Wall Street Journal.
THE AUTHOR
Norman Podhoretz is editor-at-large of Commentary, a senior fellow of
the Hudson Institute and author, most recently, of Ex-Friends (Free
Press, 1999)
.
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
07 Apr 2006 06:39:30 PM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, Sound of Trumpet poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
Has Science Killed God?
God?
What god?
Regards,
Josef
It isn't that they can't see the solution. It's that they can't see the
problem.
-- G.K. Chesterton
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
08 Apr 2006 02:37:00 PM |
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Previously, on alt.atheism, Josef Balluch in episode
<MPG.1ea0c23e132c8d76989d3b@news1.on.sympatico.ca>...
In a message sent 'round the world, Sound of Trumpet poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
Has Science Killed God?
God?
What god?
If ya can't produce a body, ya can't get a conviction!
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC
I just love this one...
"For those of us who grew up in Louisiana,
'The Wizard of Oz' was like a documentary.
Dorothy left Kansas and simply went to Mardi Gras."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?W2EA439BC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
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| User: "*nemo*" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
08 Apr 2006 05:14:22 AM |
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In article <1144449961.363726.253980@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> wrote:
Has Science Killed God?
Maybe not yet, but I hope it won't be much longer. The old spook has
been around entirely too long for our good.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
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| User: "Michael Martin-Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
08 Apr 2006 12:57:57 PM |
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Thanks to the workof the WMAP satellite ,it appears that "The G-d of the
Gaps" has been squeezed down to the first trillionth of a second after the
Big Bang; not much further to go...?
"*nemo*" <nemo0037@earthlink.dieSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:nemo0037-A4C1D2.06113708042006@news.east.earthlink.net...
In article <1144449961.363726.253980@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> wrote:
Has Science Killed God?
Maybe not yet, but I hope it won't be much longer. The old spook has
been around entirely too long for our good.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
08 Apr 2006 01:54:05 AM |
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In article <1144449961.363726.253980@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> wrote:
http://www.victorclaveau.com/htm_html/Essays%20on%20Science/has_science_killed
_god.htm
Has Science Killed God?
How can you kill something that doesn't exist?
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
09 Apr 2006 01:39:01 AM |
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Long ago
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
07 Apr 2006 09:30:05 PM |
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On 7 Apr 2006 15:46:01 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> wrote:
http://www.victorclaveau.com/htm_html/Essays%20on%20Science/has_science_killed_god.htm
Has Science Killed God?
You can't kill what never existed to begin with.
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| User: "brique" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
07 Apr 2006 11:06:03 PM |
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John Baker <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:7t7e32pi7fg1gim5ai61fmbb4ouhsavfr3@4ax.com...
On 7 Apr 2006 15:46:01 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> wrote:
http://www.victorclaveau.com/htm_html/Essays%20on%20Science/has_science_kil
led_god.htm
Has Science Killed God?
You can't kill what never existed to begin with.
Of far greater importance is the answer to this question : Who killed
Bambi's mum?
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
08 Apr 2006 07:47:24 AM |
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On Sat, 8 Apr 2006 05:06:03 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m>
wrote:
John Baker <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:7t7e32pi7fg1gim5ai61fmbb4ouhsavfr3@4ax.com...
On 7 Apr 2006 15:46:01 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> wrote:
http://www.victorclaveau.com/htm_html/Essays%20on%20Science/has_science_kil
led_god.htm
Has Science Killed God?
You can't kill what never existed to begin with.
Of far greater importance is the answer to this question : Who killed
Bambi's mum?
That I don't know, but she tasted great!
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
08 Apr 2006 06:14:55 PM |
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"Jos Flachs" <xwcruise@ksc15.th.com> wrote in message
news:46cf32hca5k01aeqhfcgcgj3j4bcps3ba0@4ax.com...
On Sat, 8 Apr 2006 05:06:03 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m>
wrote:
John Baker <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:7t7e32pi7fg1gim5ai61fmbb4ouhsavfr3@4ax.com...
On 7 Apr 2006 15:46:01 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> wrote:
http://www.victorclaveau.com/htm_html/Essays%20on%20Science/has_science_kil
led_god.htm
Has Science Killed God?
You can't kill what never existed to begin with.
Of far greater importance is the answer to this question : Who killed
Bambi's mum?
That I don't know, but she tasted great!
<GASP!> You fiend!
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
Atheist ***** Extraordinaire
#1557
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
08 Apr 2006 08:10:44 AM |
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On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 19:47:24 +0700, Jos Flachs <xwcruise@ksc15.th.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 8 Apr 2006 05:06:03 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m>
wrote:
John Baker <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:7t7e32pi7fg1gim5ai61fmbb4ouhsavfr3@4ax.com...
On 7 Apr 2006 15:46:01 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> wrote:
http://www.victorclaveau.com/htm_html/Essays%20on%20Science/has_science_kil
led_god.htm
Has Science Killed God?
You can't kill what never existed to begin with.
Of far greater importance is the answer to this question : Who killed
Bambi's mum?
That I don't know, but she tasted great!
Oh deer.
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
08 Apr 2006 06:15:35 PM |
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"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:9idf321c0u3kr8kjo6e1od08f8mqvkq12e@4ax.com...
On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 19:47:24 +0700, Jos Flachs <xwcruise@ksc15.th.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 8 Apr 2006 05:06:03 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m>
wrote:
John Baker <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:7t7e32pi7fg1gim5ai61fmbb4ouhsavfr3@4ax.com...
On 7 Apr 2006 15:46:01 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> wrote:
http://www.victorclaveau.com/htm_html/Essays%20on%20Science/has_science_kil
led_god.htm
Has Science Killed God?
You can't kill what never existed to begin with.
Of far greater importance is the answer to this question : Who killed
Bambi's mum?
That I don't know, but she tasted great!
Oh deer.
Ruuuuuuuuuuubber Chicken! <THWACK!!?
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
Atheist ***** Extraordinaire
#1557
.
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| User: "Antonio Forza" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
10 Apr 2006 01:32:56 AM |
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On 7 Apr 2006 15:46:01 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> wrote:
http://www.victorclaveau.com/htm_html/Essays%20on%20Science/has_science_killed_god.htm
Has Science Killed God?
NORMAN PODHORETZ
Norman Podhoretz traces, from the time of Galileo, the various
conflicts and connections between religion and science. While it was in
becoming "modest" that the human mind seemed to have grown to
superhuman proportions, it soon forgot, in the headiness of its
accomplishments, the respect for its own limits. Now the idea spread
that reason in the form of science had shown that it, not God, was
omnipotent and was on its way to usurping the divine attribute of
omniscience as well.
This is a nonsense statement. No reasonable person has ever claimed
that reason equates to omniscience.
You do not need to be omniscient to realize that there is no need to
believe in a foolish myth.
There is no need to believe that anyone or anything is omniscient, as
nothing has ever proven to be omniscient.
The better question is: what reason is there to believe in an
omniscient god? Since there is no valid reason to believe in the
existence of an omniscient god, it is not reasonable to beleive in an
omniscient god. There is also no need for science to kill something
that never existed in the first place.
--
Mental Anarchy - Free Your Mind
http://mentalanarchy.com
--
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***
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| User: "brique" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
10 Apr 2006 10:58:02 AM |
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Antonio Forza <antonioforza@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3nuj321ekbiqj0usgdsbh5ac9eggu3puaf@4ax.com...
On 7 Apr 2006 15:46:01 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> wrote:
http://www.victorclaveau.com/htm_html/Essays%20on%20Science/has_science_kil
led_god.htm
Has Science Killed God?
NORMAN PODHORETZ
Norman Podhoretz traces, from the time of Galileo, the various
conflicts and connections between religion and science. While it was in
becoming "modest" that the human mind seemed to have grown to
superhuman proportions, it soon forgot, in the headiness of its
accomplishments, the respect for its own limits. Now the idea spread
that reason in the form of science had shown that it, not God, was
omnipotent and was on its way to usurping the divine attribute of
omniscience as well.
This is a nonsense statement. No reasonable person has ever claimed
that reason equates to omniscience.
You do not need to be omniscient to realize that there is no need to
believe in a foolish myth.
There is no need to believe that anyone or anything is omniscient, as
nothing has ever proven to be omniscient.
The better question is: what reason is there to believe in an
omniscient god? Since there is no valid reason to believe in the
existence of an omniscient god, it is not reasonable to beleive in an
omniscient god. There is also no need for science to kill something
that never existed in the first place.
Deicide - a victimless crime........
--
Mental Anarchy - Free Your Mind
http://mentalanarchy.com
--
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from
http://www.SecureIX.com ***
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| User: "Curly Surmudgeon" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
09 Apr 2006 01:11:54 PM |
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On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 15:46:01 -0700, Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.victorclaveau.com/htm_html/Essays%20on%20Science/has_science_killed_god.htm
Has Science Killed God?
Fatal bullets to the god myth are common.
----------begin article----------
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB114436537563919417-2SeevT9LrELO0e2AWr5cVOVeLBg_20060506.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top
Two New Discoveries
Answer Big Questions
In Evolution Theory
April 7, 2006; Page B1
Even as the evolution wars rage, on school boards and in courtrooms,
biologists continue to accumulate empirical data supporting Darwinian
theory. Two extraordinary discoveries announced this week should go a long
way to providing even more of the evidence that critics of evolution say
is lacking.
One study produced what biblical literalists have been demanding ever
since Darwin -- the iconic "missing links." If species evolve, they ask,
with one segueing into another, where are the transition fossils, those
man-ape or reptile-mammal creatures that evolution posits?
In yesterday's issue of Nature, paleontologists unveiled an answer:
well-preserved fossils of a previously unknown fish that was on its way to
evolving into a four-limbed land-dweller. It had a jaw, fins and scales
like a fish, but a skull, neck, ribs and pectoral fin like the earliest
limbed animals, called tetrapods.
Discovered in 2004 on Canada's Ellesmere Island by Neil Shubin of the
University of Chicago and Ted Daeschler of the Academy of Natural Sciences
in Philadelphia, the 375-million-year-old Tiktaalik roseae "blurs the
boundary between fish and land animals," said Prof. Shubin. It "is both
fish and tetrapod," showing how life made the transition to land, evolving
four limbs from fins.
Previously known fossils of ancient "lobe-finned fish" also seem poised
between fish and tetrapods, with pectoral fins containing precursors of
the humerus, radius and ulna of tetrapod armbones. But Tiktaalik (an Inuit
word for shallow-water fish) makes a stronger case. Its pectoral fin still
has thin, fish-like bones, but also contains the three armbones-to-be as
well as a wrist-like structure and a hand-like one. The shoulder and elbow
could bend, and the proto-wrist could extend, allowing the fin to support
the body and propel it on land. "Tiktaalik shows us the stages in the
evolution of the tetrapod body plan," says Dr. Daeschler.
Fossils from 10 Tiktaaliks were embedded in rock deposited by a meandering
stream system, suggesting where that momentous step occurred.
But creationists, many of whose Web sites declare "there are no
transitional forms," are not easily persuaded. John Morris of the
Institute for Creation Research in Santee, Calif., says Tiktaalik "is just
a variety of fish. There is still a huge gap [between fish and
land-dwellers] that has to be filled."
Another discovery addresses something Darwin himself recognized could doom
his theory: the existence of a complex organ that couldn't have "formed by
numerous, successive, slight modifications," he wrote in 1859.
The intelligent-design movement, which challenges teaching evolution,
makes this the centerpiece of its attack. It insists that components of
complex structures, such as the eye, are useless on their own and so
couldn't have evolved independently, an idea called irreducible
complexity.
Because only functional structures survive, they say, useless components
such as parts of an eye couldn't lie around for eons waiting for dumb luck
to assemble them into a (finally) functional unit. These complex
structures therefore must have been assembled by a designer.
One such complex structure is a hormone and its receptor. Just as a
keyhole has no use without a key and vice versa, a hormone is useless
without a receptor that lets it dock with a cell, and a receptor serves no
purpose without hormones. Catch-22: Neither component could survive
without the other, yet it strains credulity to suppose that both
structures popped onto the evolutionary scene simultaneously.
To investigate this puzzle, biologists led by Joseph Thornton of the
University of Oregon reconstructed an ancestral receptor. They first
analyzed receptors for steroid hormones in 59 species, including primitive
jawless fish and skates. Then, in a process called gene resurrection, they
worked backward to infer what the gene for the ancestral receptor was, and
actually made the receptor in the lab: a molecule that last existed on
earth 450 million years ago.
Testing various hormones on the ancestral receptor, the scientists found
that both aldosterone and another one fit. The ancestral receptor,
therefore, was fully employed acting as the keyhole for this second
hormone. When aldosterone appeared on the scene by random mutation, it
co-opted the existing receptor, the researchers conclude in today's issue
of Science.
The findings, says Christoph Adami of the Keck Graduate Institute of
Applied Life Sciences, Claremont, Calif., "solidly refute" ID.
But refutation is in the eye of the beholder. No scientific discovery will
end the evolution wars. For one thing, adherents of ID call the fact that
scientists are studying reducible-complexity at all a victory for their
side. "We're delighted they're engaging in a debate that they say doesn't
exist," says Stephen Meyer of the Discovery Institute in Seattle, which
pushes ID. Moreover, he says, the hormone-receptor system is not really
irreducibly complex.
The trouble for ID is that this isn't the first study to show, step by
step, how complex structures could have evolved. Recent experiments have
shown how irreducibly complex structures such as bacterial flagella and
the lens of an eye could have evolved by co-opting existing structures
just as the hormone did. More such research is in the pipeline.
--------end article-------
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Time to dust off the guillotine
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| User: "Curly Surmudgeon" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
08 Apr 2006 12:38:05 AM |
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On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 15:46:01 -0700, Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.victorclaveau.com/htm_html/Essays%20on%20Science/has_science_killed_god.htm
Has Science Killed God?
Yes.
Just as the Boogeyman, Easter Bunny, Santa Claus and Roger Rabbit can be
"killed."
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Time to dust off the guillotine
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
07 Apr 2006 11:41:24 PM |
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Previously, on alt.atheism, Sound of Trumpet in episode
<1144449961.363726.253980@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>...
Has Science Killed God?
Can't kill what never existed in the first place.
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC
I just love this one...
"For those of us who grew up in Louisiana,
'The Wizard of Oz' was like a documentary.
Dorothy left Kansas and simply went to Mardi Gras."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?W2EA439BC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
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| User: "Conspiracy of Doves" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
07 Apr 2006 06:51:37 PM |
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Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.victorclaveau.com/htm_html/Essays%20on%20Science/has_science_killed_god.htm
Has Science Killed God?
Science has nothing to say on the subject of god, at least a generic
god. Science has certainly disproven the god that you get from a
literal interpretation of the christian bible. You need to stop
thinking of your god as the only concievable one.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
08 Apr 2006 12:05:12 AM |
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Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.victorclaveau.com/htm_html/Essays%20on%20Science/has_science_killed_god.htm
Has Science Killed God?
Where "God" is a placeholder for the unknown? Yep.
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "Torture has never been a reliable means of *
* extracting information.... One wonders why it *
* is still practiced." --Jean-Luc Picard *
****************************************************
--
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
07 Apr 2006 06:42:01 PM |
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Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.victorclaveau.com/htm_html/Essays%20on%20Science/has_science_killed_god.htm
Has Science Killed God?
NORMAN PODHORETZ
Norman Podhoretz traces,
Neocons are such authorities they must be answered.
--
I have nothing but the utmost respect for the intellectual standing of
journalism majors.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3613
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
http://www.giwersworld.org
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| User: "Bill" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
07 Apr 2006 07:08:06 PM |
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You can't kill a myth. You can only discredit it.
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> wrote in message
news:1144449961.363726.253980@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
http://www.victorclaveau.com/htm_html/Essays%20on%20Science/has_science_killed_god.htm
Has Science Killed God?
NORMAN PODHORETZ
Norman Podhoretz traces, from the time of Galileo, the various
conflicts and connections between religion and science. While it was in
becoming "modest" that the human mind seemed to have grown to
superhuman proportions, it soon forgot, in the headiness of its
accomplishments, the respect for its own limits. Now the idea spread
that reason in the form of science had shown that it, not God, was
omnipotent and was on its way to usurping the divine attribute of
omniscience as well.
The single most important phenomenon of the millennium just ended is
the dog that didn't bark. But the second most important was the dog
that did.
As to the dog that barked. It was, surely, the development of modern
science. This process started not at the beginning of the millennium
but halfway through it getting seriously underway with Copernicus in
the middle of the 16th century and picking up steam in the early 17th.
Yet in the four centuries since Copernicus proved that Earth revolves
around the sun rather than the other was around, more has been learned
about the natural world than was known in all the ages of human
existence that came be fore them.
This seems, when one pauses to reflect on it, very odd. After all,
there can be no doubt that some of the greatest intellects ever to
appear on Earth were active 2,000 years ago and earlier. Among the
ancient Hebrews and the ancient Greeks alone, there were thinkers who
have never been surpassed in profundity, originality, vision and
wisdom.
Some of these ancient peoples even applied themselves to mathematics
and the sciences, and up through the Middle Ages their work continued
to exert a mighty influence on Jewish, Christian and Muslim
philosophers and theologians alike. Thus Scholasticism, the school of
thought rejected by modern science (the "new philosophy," in the
parlance of the time) was almost as deeply rooted in the Greeks,
especially Aristotle, as in the Bible. Indeed, the most formidable of
the Scholastics, St. Thomas Aquinas, dedicated himself to reconciling
reason (equated with Aristotle) and revelation (the Scriptures). And in
the course of pursuing this enterprise, Aquinas had much to say about
the physical nature of the universe.
What, then, can explain why most, if not all, of what these great minds
thought they knew about the nature of the material world was wrong?
Conversely, how did it happen that Copernicus, and then Kepler and
Galileo (the two giants who came right after him), and those who
followed in their footsteps all the way to the present day, got most,
if not all, of it right?
One might imagine that so huge and consequential a question would be
hard to answer. But no. Galileo himself answered it. The Scholastics,
he clearly recognized, were interested only in explaining why things
were as they were, and their explanations (with more than a little help
from Aristotle) took the form of logical deduction from the truths they
already possessed through revelation. Galileo's revolutionary aim, by
contrast, was to discover how things were by observing and measuring
them.
Galileo never claimed that these new experimental procedures could
uncover anything about the cause or the origin of the forces being
measured and observed. But through such procedures, he could and did
find evidence that the Scholastics, and Aristotle before them, were
wildly mistaken about the physical universe. Speaking of phenomena that
he had spotted through the telescope he built - phenomena that were
ruled out by the prevailing Scholastic theory - Galileo declared:
"We have in our new age accidents and observations, and such, that I
question not in the least, but if Aristotle were now alive, they would
make him change his opinion."
Well, Aristotle might, but the professor at Padua was no Aristotle. He
declined even to look through the telescope Galileo had built. Why
bother? So far as he was concerned, nothing he might see could shed
light on the human purposes it served.
Galileo took the opposite tack. It was, he argued, beyond the power of
the human mind unaided by revelation to penetrate those purposes.
Therefore, it would be better for people "to pronounce that wise,
ingenious, and modest sentence, 'I know it not;'" and not (like
the Scholastics) "suffer to escape from their mouths and pens all
manner of extravagance." Even though Galileo, while famously forced
by the Church to recant his belief in the heliocentric cosmology of
Copernicus, held on privately to that belief, he did not reject
Christianity. He also contended that science did not contradict the
Bible as properly understood. But he did, willy-nilly, sever the
connection forged most fully by Aquinas between reason and revelation.
To the great English poet John Donne, who lived in the early days of
this intellectual revolution, it was a disaster:
And new philosophy calls all in doubt,
The element of fire is quite put out;
The Sun is lost, and the earth, and no man's wit
Can well direct him where to look for it...
Tis all in pieces, all coherence gone...
However, Donne's fellow countryman and near contemporary, Sir Francis
Bacon, saw it all very differently. In Bacon's view, the new
philosophy was no threat - not to religious faith, not to the wit of
man and not to the social order. By separating out "the absurd
mixture of matters divine and human" that the Scholastics had
concocted, all the new philosophy did was to render unto faith the
things that are faith's." To understand the word of God, we now had
to "quit the small vessel of human reason, and put ourselves on board
the ship of the Church, which alone possesses the divine needle for
justly shaping the course." Furthermore, in submitting to the limits
of human reason, we would lay bare the true wonders of God's
creation, and we would thereby ultimately be led to worship him all the
more.
This prediction may have been sincere or, more likely, a clever piece
of apologetics, but in any case it turned out to be wrong about the
effect of the new philosophy on religious belief. As science
progressed, faith in the old sense grew correspondingly weaker, and by
the 18th century - which was not dubbed the Age of Reason for nothing
- it had been diluted into the depersonalized generalities of deism.
In the meantime, the human mind unaided by revelation was showing such
enormous power that even a poet like Alexander Pope (who was a Roman
Catholic) fell into a state of veneration as before a saint in
contemplating the figure of the preeminent scientist of his day, Sir
Isaac Newton:
Nature and Nature's law lay hid in night, God said, 'Let Newton
be,' and all was light
The paradox was that this apparently unlimited power had been unleashed
precisely by the willingness of reason to become (in Galileo's term)
more "modest." In restricting itself to what it was capable of
discovering, instead of presuming to answer the ultimate questions that
were beyond its ken, the human mind had rapidly acquired a vaster store
of knowledge about the physical universe than it had managed to gather
in all the years gone by.
By the 19th century, with the advent of Charles Darwin, the new
philosophy had descended from the planets to the apes. And with this
shift, the so-called war between religion and science, which Bacon had
denied would ever occur, heated up to a veritable frenzy. Like so many
of the scientists who had come before him, Darwin protested that he was
not a nonbeliever and he insisted that his discovery of the descent of
man from the apes did not refute the essential truths of religion.
But to little avail. There were (and still are) desperate efforts by
many Christians either to refute Darwin or to find a way of maintaining
their faith in the biblical ac count of creation in the teeth of his
work. Great outpourings of religious enthusiasm even occurred here and
there. And yet when the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche
proclaimed toward the end of the 19th century that God was dead, he was
expressing a very wide spread feeling, often secretly held, that few
others had the nerve to articulate s boldly,
Nietzsche welcomed the death of God as a necessary precondition for the
fruition of human greatness. But his older Russian contemporary, the
great novelist Foodor Dostoevsky, like John Donne before him, was
appalled by the consequences that the victory of science over religion
were likely to bring with it. If God was dead, he said (through the
mouth of one of his characters, Ivan Karamazov), then everything was
permitted.
At this point in the story, we run into another fascinating paradox.
While it was in becoming "modest" that the human mind seemed to
have grown to superhuman proportions, it soon forgot, in the headiness
of its accomplishments, the respect for its own limits that had made
the gigantic accomplishments of reason possible in the first place. Now
the idea spread that reason in the form of science had shown that it,
not God, was omnipotent and was on its way to usurping the divine
attribute of omniscience as well.
And so it came about that modesty was replaced by the puffed-up pride
the Greeks called hubris. The likes of the Marquis de Condorcet in the
18th century and then Auguste Comte in the 19th asserted that science
need not even be restricted to the physical world; it could be adapted
to the social world just as successfully. "Social science" could
design plans for an ideal society, and in implementing them, it could
at the same time - or so the most utopian of these social engineers
expected - reshape and perfect human nature itself.
If, according to Dostoevsky, the death of God meant that everything
(evil) was now permitted, the new worshippers of reason believed that
everything (good) was now possible. But Dostoevsky was a better prophet
than the utopian rationalists on the other side, as the grisly horrors
perpetrated by the two main totalitarian systems that sprang up in the
20th century would demonstrate.
For both communism and Nazism were forms of social engineering based on
supposedly scientific foundations. The communists who took over in
Russia in 1917 explicitly saw themselves as "scientific
socialists;' carrying out the hither-to hidden laws of History as
unearthed by the mind of Karl Marx and creating as they went along the
"new Soviet man." As for the Nazis, they justified their slaughter
of Jews and others as part of a program of putatively scientific
eugenics that would purify the human race and create the higher breed
foreseen by Nietzsche in his vision of the superman.
To be sure, few worshippers of reason detected in the horrors of
totalitarianism the fingerprints of their triumph in the war between
science and religion, Quite the contrary. Many scientists and other
devotees of what has aptly been described as "the religion of
science" even supported the Soviet "experiment" (the use of this
word was itself significant) and apologized for or denied the crimes it
entailed, Conversely, they placed the blame for Nazism not on anything
connected with reason or science but on the atavistic influence of
religion and forces of irrationality and superstition that allegedly
always accompanied it.
Hence totalitarianism failed to make a dent in the hubris of the
religion of science. But the atom bomb did manage to trigger a recoil
among the physicists who had invented it. In yet another of the
paradoxes that keep cropping up here, this most vivid demonstration of
the seemingly limitless power of science brought about something of a
return to Galileo's modesty. Scientists like J. Robert Oppenheimer,
who had supervised the project, took to agonizing over what science had
wrought and were beset by doubts about its role in the total scheme of
things.
In yielding to these doubts, Oppenheimer and others had been preceded
by several scientist-philosophers, of whom the most eminent was
probably Alfred North Whitehead. In Science and the Modern World
(1925), Whitehead, from within a generally scientific worldview, raised
deep questions about the idea that science provided an exhaustive
account of reality. "Religion," he wrote approvingly, "is the
vision of something which stands beyond, behind, and within, the
passing flux of immediate things."
During this same period, there were also literary figures like T.S.
Eliot who carried forward and modernized the tradition of resistance to
the imperialistic claims of reason and science as against those of
imagination and religion. Finally, to Eliot and Whitehead were added
theologians like Jacques Maritain who, resurrecting and reconceiving
lines of argument from St. Thomas Aquinas that had once been thought
dead and buried forever, undertook to show that the truths of science
did not refute or negate the truths of religion.
Then, too, within the realm of science itself, new discoveries were
made, particularly in cosmology (where the whole thing had started)
that further encouraged a return to Galileo's modesty. In 1992 the
distinguished astronomer Robert Jastrow, while describing himself as an
agnostic, wrote a book entitled God and the Astronomers concluding that
"it is not a matter of another year, another decade of work, another
measurement, or another theory; at this moment it seems as though
science will never be able to raise the curtain on the mystery of
creation."
But the very last sentence of Mr. Jastrow's book was even more
astonishing: "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the
power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the
mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he
pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of
theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."
Evidently, as with the death of Mark Twain, reports of the death of God
have been greatly exaggerated. Against all expectation, that dog did
not in the end bark. I am not here referring to the fact that in the
United States approximately 95% of the population professes to believe
in God. No doubt this is impressive, but its impact is somewhat
lessened by the highly secularized way of life that so comfortably
coexists with it.
What strikes me as more impressive is the almost complete disappearance
in recent years of any talk about the war between science and religion.
We do talk of a "culture war," but that battle has been raging on
an entirely different front. As for science and religion, these two
formerly passionate enemies have for the moment reached an
accommodation on the ground. It is an unwritten armistice, based
(perhaps unconsciously) on the conception of the relations between the
two that was advanced by Galileo and Bacon, who rendered unto each its
own sphere of truth: to science the how of material things, and to
religion the why of them.
As Mr. Jastrow sees it, this is where the story ends. But alas, he is
correct only for the older breed of natural scientists. A new breed,
which did not yet exist in the 17th century, has come along in the
latter part of the 20th and seems likely to reignite the war between
science and religion. This new breed, made up of geneticists, molecular
biologists and biotechnologists, is in the only the early stages of its
work. Like their predecessors in other scientific fields, they have
gone very far very fast, but they have neither begun with nor yet
acquired any sense of the limits of what they can do.
A good illustration is provided by two leading pioneers of the "new
philosophy" of our own day, Francis Crick and James D. Watson, who
jointly won the Nobel Prize for discovering the structure of DNA. So
confident were these men of their powers that in the early 1970s they
entertained the idea of administering genetic tests to newborn infants
who, if they failed, were to be put to death. At the time this idea was
so shocking that Mr. Crick prudently refused to allow publication of
the BBC interview in which he had floated it, while Mr. Watson confined
his endorsement to private conversation (with me, among others).
Of course they defined "failure" as a likely predisposition to
certain diseases, so that the infanticide it entailed wore a reassuring
therapeutic mask. Yet what was to prevent the future inclusion of
standards of height or beauty or intellectual potential as necessary
qualifications for the right of a newborn to go on living?
By now, even with this terrible question still hanging in the air, we
have a philosopher like Peter Singer throwing all caution to the winds
and developing a rationale for an allegedly benevolent program of
infanticide. Mr Singer's reward for his brazen outspokenness has been
an appointment as professor of bioethics at the Princeton University
Center for Human Values (!). In response, the resistance within the
religious community is heating up at a rapid clip.
But wait. Thanks to the progress of genetic engineering, which assures
us it can rectify defects in advance, infanticide may prove
unnecessary. This sounds wonderful, but wait again. As the political
theorist Francis Fukuyama has written, the biotechnical revolution is
"on the brink" of being able to custom-design creatures who will
resemble humans but will not be governed by human nature as we have
always known it.
Unlike his namesake Francis Bacon, who greeted the first stage of
modern science with hope and enthusiasm, Mr. Fukuyama looks forward
with fear and trembling to this next stage. "To the extent that
nature is not something given to us by God or by our evolutionary
inheritance, but by human artifice, then we enter into God's own
realm with all of the frightening powers for good and evil that such an
entry implies."
I tremble even more violently than Mr. Fukuyama, but I cannot believe
that the new scientists will succeed in replacing God any more than
their predecessors managed to kill him off. The dog didn't bark in
the millennium just ended, and my guess - or perhaps I should say my
prayer - is that it will also fail to bark in the one just begun.
ACKNOWLEDGEMENT
Podhoretz, Norman. "Has Science Killed God?" Wall Street Journal
(February, 2000).
Reprinted with permission of the Wall Street Journal.
THE AUTHOR
Norman Podhoretz is editor-at-large of Commentary, a senior fellow of
the Hudson Institute and author, most recently, of Ex-Friends (Free
Press, 1999)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
07 Apr 2006 08:37:31 PM |
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You can't discredit God either, but you can prove he exists. It is
just these republican freemasons who are keeping it all secret to
promote their new world order agenda.
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| User: "Bloggs" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
07 Apr 2006 11:29:48 PM |
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<CoreyWhite@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1144460251.677900.211260@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
You can't discredit God either, but you can prove he exists.
How?
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| User: "Malcolm" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
08 Apr 2006 03:07:50 PM |
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"Bloggs" <Bloggs@hotmail.com> wrote
<CoreyWhite@gmail.com> wrote in message
You can't discredit God either, but you can prove he exists.
How?
In the first century, a small group of people knew that either Jesus was
risen, or that their senses were grossly disordered and they were imagining
someone come back from the dead.
It is then up to a twenty-first century person to decide whether to believe
them or not.
--
Buy my book 12 Common Atheist Arguments (refuted)
$1.25 download or $7.20 paper, available www.lulu.com/bgy1mm
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| User: "tim gueguen" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
10 Apr 2006 05:52:01 PM |
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"Malcolm" <regniztar@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:IsidnXGbWIimqaXZRVnygA@bt.com...
"Bloggs" <Bloggs@hotmail.com> wrote
<CoreyWhite@gmail.com> wrote in message
You can't discredit God either, but you can prove he exists.
How?
In the first century, a small group of people knew that either Jesus was
risen, or that their senses were grossly disordered and they were
imagining someone come back from the dead.
Actually we don't know what they actually believed. We have an account of
what they supposedly believed, but how accurate that account is we have no
idea.
tim gueguen 101867
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| User: "brique" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
08 Apr 2006 11:01:58 PM |
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Malcolm <regniztar@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:IsidnXGbWIimqaXZRVnygA@bt.com...
"Bloggs" <Bloggs@hotmail.com> wrote
<CoreyWhite@gmail.com> wrote in message
You can't discredit God either, but you can prove he exists.
How?
In the first century, a small group of people knew that either Jesus was
risen, or that their senses were grossly disordered and they were
imagining
someone come back from the dead.
It is then up to a twenty-first century person to decide whether to
believe
them or not.
Well, that is pretty conclusive..... not.
--
Buy my book 12 Common Atheist Arguments (refuted)
$1.25 download or $7.20 paper, available www.lulu.com/bgy1mm
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| User: "Xcott Craver" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
08 Apr 2006 05:24:01 PM |
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Malcolm <regniztar@btinternet.com> wrote:
In the first century, a small group of people knew that either Jesus was
risen, or that their senses were grossly disordered and they were imagining
someone come back from the dead.
Yeah, and Theseus saw the Minotaur with his own eyes. Unless you're going
to tell me that he was just hallucinating.
Those are the only two possibilities, right?
--
"I have always observed that the pretensions of all people are in exact
inverse ratio to their merits; this is one of the axioms of morals."
--Lagrange
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| User: "Malcolm" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
09 Apr 2006 04:19:34 AM |
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"Xcott Craver" <caj@B-r-a-i-n-H-z.com> wrote
Malcolm <regniztar@btinternet.com> wrote:
In the first century, a small group of people knew that either Jesus was
risen, or that their senses were grossly disordered and they were
imagining
someone come back from the dead.
Yeah, and Theseus saw the Minotaur with his own eyes. Unless you're going
to tell me that he was just hallucinating.
Those are the only two possibilities, right?
No. You need to be able to assess evidence. The Greek myths are just that.
They are not fiction in the modern sense, but they were set in the distant
past. The story of the minotaur has a clear narrative structure, with many
folklorish motifs, such as the tribute of midens and the ball of thread
Theseus uses to get out of the labyrinth.
St Paul, on the other hand, writes when the apostles were mostly still
living.
Now there was briefly an attempt to show that Jesus had some of the motifs
which I have mentioned, such as being a dying and rising corn God. That idea
was rapidly discredited, though it crops up again every so often. The
problem is that, though there are startling similarities to various
vegeation rituals, there is simply no acknowledgement of any of these
sources in the early Chrisitian literature. The reason is not because the
Christians refused to acknowlede any intellectual debts, as the Jewish
scriptures are quoted regularly. The reason is not that the official church
suppressed the truth - there are lenty of apocrphal gospels, none of which
mention Mithras or any corn-type god. The reason is simply that Jesus was an
historical person and not some mythical figure who lived who knows when.
So we are left with hallcinations, lies, or a risen Jesus. Those are the
only possibilities. The evidence won't allow a "Jesus was a figure like
Theseus" type explanation.
--
Buy my book 12 Common Atheist Arguments (refuted)
$1.25 download or $7.20 paper, available www.lulu.com/bgy1mm
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| User: "brique" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
09 Apr 2006 01:35:00 PM |
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Malcolm <regniztar@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:ofGdnVNu9ZMGoaTZnZ2dnUVZ8tydnZ2d@bt.com...
"Xcott Craver" <caj@B-r-a-i-n-H-z.com> wrote
Malcolm <regniztar@btinternet.com> wrote:
In the first century, a small group of people knew that either Jesus was
risen, or that their senses were grossly disordered and they were
imagining
someone come back from the dead.
Yeah, and Theseus saw the Minotaur with his own eyes. Unless you're
going
to tell me that he was just hallucinating.
Those are the only two possibilities, right?
No. You need to be able to assess evidence. The Greek myths are just that.
They are not fiction in the modern sense, but they were set in the distant
past. The story of the minotaur has a clear narrative structure, with many
folklorish motifs, such as the tribute of midens and the ball of thread
Theseus uses to get out of the labyrinth.
St Paul, on the other hand, writes when the apostles were mostly still
living.
Now there was briefly an attempt to show that Jesus had some of the motifs
which I have mentioned, such as being a dying and rising corn God. That
idea
was rapidly discredited, though it crops up again every so often. The
problem is that, though there are startling similarities to various
vegeation rituals, there is simply no acknowledgement of any of these
sources in the early Chrisitian literature. The reason is not because the
Christians refused to acknowlede any intellectual debts, as the Jewish
scriptures are quoted regularly. The reason is not that the official
church
suppressed the truth - there are lenty of apocrphal gospels, none of which
mention Mithras or any corn-type god. The reason is simply that Jesus was
an
historical person and not some mythical figure who lived who knows when.
So we are left with hallcinations, lies, or a risen Jesus. Those are the
only possibilities. The evidence won't allow a "Jesus was a figure like
Theseus" type explanation.
How about a simple work of fiction..... like Harry Potter.......
--
Buy my book 12 Common Atheist Arguments (refuted)
$1.25 download or $7.20 paper, available www.lulu.com/bgy1mm
.
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| User: "Malcolm" |
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| Title: Re: Has Science Killed God? |
09 Apr 2006 04:00:09 PM |
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"brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m> wrote
So we are left with hallcinations, lies, or a risen Jesus. Those are the
only possibilities. The evidence won't allow a "Jesus was a figure like
Theseus" type explanation.
How about a simple work of fiction..... like Harry Potter.......
As CS Lewis said, those who make that argument haven't learnt to read.
The gospels are transparently not fictions. They are an account of an
historical person, at a real time and real place, interacting with other
historical people. They don't have a fictional narrative structure, but are
a series of notable incidents strung together, just like a real roadshow
would be. The centurion's daughter is healed, but then that's it. He
disappears back into obscurity, never to be heard from again. Typically that
is what happens - people have a moment of fame when something noteworthy
happens to them, then the focus of events shifts elsewhere.
--
Buy my book 12 Common Atheist Arguments (refuted)
$1.25 download or $7.20 paper, available www.lulu.com/bgy1mm
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