| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"leo" |
| Date: |
13 Jul 2006 07:00:10 AM |
| Object: |
have we a free will? |
Dear Michael:
You have to think that Satan is very clever and is giving us a lot of
sound arguments against your believes.
You said:
[Society is] "Separating criminals from society."
[then ] "Sinners cast into Hell are separated from the faithful [by
God]."
These two are quite different situations.
1) Society feels impotent to change the mind of criminals, so it holds
them in a prison. Society do that, because he has not better means to
control them, or for changing their minds. If society one day develops
a machine to change the mind of criminals to convert them into "decent
and trusted citizens", it will surely use it.
2) A God Almighty has the power to change the minds of the evil
people. Why does He not act accordingly to this power?
This is not to negate their free will, as some morons are saying. Even
if
these put some limitations to his free will, "they could not do
evil".
Even then, this "limited people" would have a free will. They can
choose among many valid activities. They can drink a beer or two, but
not if they are going to drive a car. All adults could drink a beer or
two,
but not a six pack of beer. This could be dangerous for his health.
Younger people would allowd to drink much less, etc.
Many people restrain themselves this way. I can drink 50 or 100
centiliters (2 or 4 ounces) of wine in a lunch, but not more. Perhaps
a little more if I am going to sleep after.
Anyway, to barre the mind of persons of doing evil acts cannot be an
obstacle to be free humans. If that were the case, one would think
that
all people that behave properly and do good were not free men.
On the other hand, our free will has many limitations. We cannot eat a
ton of fried potatos in a single lunch, we cannot fly by flapping our
arms and hands, as I had done in a dream. We cannot drink a pint of
salt water, we cannot eat earth to feed ourselves, etc.
There is a lot of limitations in our life, like we cannot not ***** as
many
women as we would like, for they refuse our advances, etc. So even
with so many limitations we do not see the philosophers saying we have
not a free will because of that.
Of course, I could argue about cleverly to nagate there is a free will.
But this will be a little more complex for average people to
understand.
I will try out one of those days. I will be very interesting.
Lopoldo
.
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| User: "Greywolf" |
|
| Title: Re: have we a free will? |
13 Jul 2006 08:12:18 AM |
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"leo" <leopoldo.perdomo@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152792010.119041.4480@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Dear Michael:
You have to think that Satan is very clever and is giving us a lot of
sound arguments against your believes.
You said:
[Society is] "Separating criminals from society."
[then ] "Sinners cast into Hell are separated from the faithful [by
God]."
These two are quite different situations.
1) Society feels impotent to change the mind of criminals, so it holds
them in a prison. Society do that, because he has not better means to
control them, or for changing their minds. If society one day develops
a machine to change the mind of criminals to convert them into "decent
and trusted citizens", it will surely use it.
2) A God Almighty has the power to change the minds of the evil
people. Why does He not act accordingly to this power?
This is not to negate their free will, as some morons are saying. Even
if
these put some limitations to his free will, "they could not do
evil".
Even then, this "limited people" would have a free will. They can
choose among many valid activities. They can drink a beer or two, but
not if they are going to drive a car. All adults could drink a beer or
two,
but not a six pack of beer. This could be dangerous for his health.
Younger people would allowd to drink much less, etc.
Many people restrain themselves this way. I can drink 50 or 100
centiliters (2 or 4 ounces) of wine in a lunch, but not more. Perhaps
a little more if I am going to sleep after.
Anyway, to barre the mind of persons of doing evil acts cannot be an
obstacle to be free humans. If that were the case, one would think
that
all people that behave properly and do good were not free men.
On the other hand, our free will has many limitations. We cannot eat a
ton of fried potatos in a single lunch, we cannot fly by flapping our
arms and hands, as I had done in a dream. We cannot drink a pint of
salt water, we cannot eat earth to feed ourselves, etc.
There is a lot of limitations in our life, like we cannot not ***** as
many
women as we would like, for they refuse our advances, etc. So even
with so many limitations we do not see the philosophers saying we have
not a free will because of that.
Of course, I could argue about cleverly to nagate there is a free will.
But this will be a little more complex for average people to
understand.
I will try out one of those days. I will be very interesting.
Lopoldo
We most certainly do -- to a degree. The Judeo-Christian community, however,
has a problem with *their* 'God's' free-will. He had the free-will
(theoretically speaking) to *not* create evil and chose to do so,
nonetheless. That should tell everyone and anyone all that *they need to
know about Mr. 'Perfect'. How could he be *that* if he consciously,
willfully, and malevolently decided to dream up 'evil' and then went ahead
and inflicted it on mankind. Some 'God', eh'? What did mankind ever do to
*him*? (And to think, people actually worship and adore this monstrosity!
Yet they have the 'free-will' not to. Go figure.
Greywolf
.
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: have we a free will? |
13 Jul 2006 08:22:33 AM |
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"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12bchlqmj159k66@corp.supernews.com...
"leo" <leopoldo.perdomo@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152792010.119041.4480@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Dear Michael:
You have to think that Satan is very clever and is giving us a lot of
sound arguments against your believes.
You said:
[Society is] "Separating criminals from society."
[then ] "Sinners cast into Hell are separated from the faithful [by
God]."
These two are quite different situations.
1) Society feels impotent to change the mind of criminals, so it holds
them in a prison. Society do that, because he has not better means to
control them, or for changing their minds. If society one day develops
a machine to change the mind of criminals to convert them into "decent
and trusted citizens", it will surely use it.
2) A God Almighty has the power to change the minds of the evil
people. Why does He not act accordingly to this power?
This is not to negate their free will, as some morons are saying. Even
if
these put some limitations to his free will, "they could not do
evil".
Even then, this "limited people" would have a free will. They can
choose among many valid activities. They can drink a beer or two, but
not if they are going to drive a car. All adults could drink a beer or
two,
but not a six pack of beer. This could be dangerous for his health.
Younger people would allowd to drink much less, etc.
Many people restrain themselves this way. I can drink 50 or 100
centiliters (2 or 4 ounces) of wine in a lunch, but not more. Perhaps
a little more if I am going to sleep after.
Anyway, to barre the mind of persons of doing evil acts cannot be an
obstacle to be free humans. If that were the case, one would think
that
all people that behave properly and do good were not free men.
On the other hand, our free will has many limitations. We cannot eat a
ton of fried potatos in a single lunch, we cannot fly by flapping our
arms and hands, as I had done in a dream. We cannot drink a pint of
salt water, we cannot eat earth to feed ourselves, etc.
There is a lot of limitations in our life, like we cannot not ***** as
many
women as we would like, for they refuse our advances, etc. So even
with so many limitations we do not see the philosophers saying we have
not a free will because of that.
Of course, I could argue about cleverly to nagate there is a free will.
But this will be a little more complex for average people to
understand.
I will try out one of those days. I will be very interesting.
Lopoldo
Do we have a free will, you ask? We most certainly do -- to a degree. The
Judeo-Christian community, however, has a problem with *their* 'God's'
free-will. He had the free-will
(theoretically speaking) to *not* create evil and chose to do so,
nonetheless. That should tell everyone and anyone all that *they need to
know about Mr. 'Perfect'. How could he be *that* if he consciously,
willfully, and malevolently decided to dream up 'evil' and then went ahead
and inflicted it on mankind. Some 'God', eh'? What did mankind ever do to
*him*?
(And to think: people actually worship and adore this imaginary monstrosity.
Yet they have the 'free-will' not to. Go figure.)
Greywolf
.
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| User: "Greywolf" |
|
| Title: Re: have we a free will? |
13 Jul 2006 09:17:23 AM |
|
|
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12bci9creu6q48c@corp.supernews.com...
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12bchlqmj159k66@corp.supernews.com...
"leo" <leopoldo.perdomo@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152792010.119041.4480@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Dear Michael:
You have to think that Satan is very clever and is giving us a lot of
sound arguments against your believes.
You said:
[Society is] "Separating criminals from society."
[then ] "Sinners cast into Hell are separated from the faithful [by
God]."
These two are quite different situations.
1) Society feels impotent to change the mind of criminals, so it holds
them in a prison. Society do that, because he has not better means to
control them, or for changing their minds. If society one day develops
a machine to change the mind of criminals to convert them into "decent
and trusted citizens", it will surely use it.
2) A God Almighty has the power to change the minds of the evil
people. Why does He not act accordingly to this power?
This is not to negate their free will, as some morons are saying. Even
if
these put some limitations to his free will, "they could not do
evil".
Even then, this "limited people" would have a free will. They can
choose among many valid activities. They can drink a beer or two, but
not if they are going to drive a car. All adults could drink a beer or
two,
but not a six pack of beer. This could be dangerous for his health.
Younger people would allowd to drink much less, etc.
Many people restrain themselves this way. I can drink 50 or 100
centiliters (2 or 4 ounces) of wine in a lunch, but not more. Perhaps
a little more if I am going to sleep after.
Anyway, to barre the mind of persons of doing evil acts cannot be an
obstacle to be free humans. If that were the case, one would think
that
all people that behave properly and do good were not free men.
On the other hand, our free will has many limitations. We cannot eat a
ton of fried potatos in a single lunch, we cannot fly by flapping our
arms and hands, as I had done in a dream. We cannot drink a pint of
salt water, we cannot eat earth to feed ourselves, etc.
There is a lot of limitations in our life, like we cannot not ***** as
many
women as we would like, for they refuse our advances, etc. So even
with so many limitations we do not see the philosophers saying we have
not a free will because of that.
Of course, I could argue about cleverly to nagate there is a free will.
But this will be a little more complex for average people to
understand.
I will try out one of those days. I will be very interesting.
Lopoldo
Do we have a free will, you ask? We most certainly do -- to a degree. The
Judeo-Christian community, however, has a problem with *their* 'God's'
free-will. He had the 'free-will'
(theoretically speaking) to *not* create evil and chose to do so,
nonetheless. That should tell anyone and everyone all that *they* need to
know about Mr. 'Perfect'. How could he be *that* if he consciously,
willfully, and malevolently decided to dream up 'evil', create it, and then
go ahead and inflict it on mankind. Some 'God', eh'? What did mankind ever
do to
*him*? And remember, 'evil' came into existence long *before* A&E *and*
'Lucifer' did, according to the bible. Where was the 'Love God's' head when
he deliberately and maliciously decided to *intelligently* 'design' evil? In
the supernatural toilet?
(And to think: people actually worship and adore this imaginary monstrosity.
Yet they have the 'free-will' not to. And some would go so far as to kill
you for not wanting to 'participate' in their 'love and joy'. Go figure.)
Greywolf
(I'll get this one 'right', if kills me.)
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: have we a free will? |
13 Jul 2006 12:40:16 PM |
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet leo
(leopoldo.perdomo@gmail.com) made the light shine upon us with this:
1) Society feels impotent to change the mind of criminals, so it holds
them in a prison. Society do that, because he has not better means to
control them, or for changing their minds. If society one day develops
a machine to change the mind of criminals to convert them into "decent
and trusted citizens", it will surely use it.
This reminds me of "A Clockwork Orange".
2) A God Almighty has the power to change the minds of the evil
people. Why does He not act accordingly to this power?
Because the god does not exist.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
The laws that require me to NOT kill people I don't like REALLY bug
me, or there would be many less of YOUR kind.
-John Weatherly
.
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| User: "leo" |
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| Title: Re: have we a free will? |
13 Jul 2006 03:06:53 PM |
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Uncle Vic ha escrito:
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet leo
(leopoldo.perdomo@gmail.com) made the light shine upon us with this:
1) Society feels impotent to change the mind of criminals, so it holds
them in a prison. Society do that, because he has not better means to
control them, or for changing their minds. If society one day develops
a machine to change the mind of criminals to convert them into "decent
and trusted citizens", it will surely use it.
This reminds me of "A Clockwork Orange".
Yes. That's true. The technique already exists and it is called
Behaviour Modification.
The problem with this is that, society needs a lot of diferencial in
the distribution of the intelligence. As society needs a lot of people
with very short intelligence, we have to cope with criminals, as a
suproduct of this situation.
The origin of the problem is that the parents define most of the
development of the intelligence in children. Dull parents use to raise
dull children. A subprogram related to the lower intelligence of
parents produce children eager to desobey orders and petitions. Of
course, the way give out children who are not interested in learning
and to work in school or home. The disobedient boy is not
automatically a future criminal, he could be just a beggar or a bum.
But if besides being a disobedient child he becomes adicted to demand
money, sweets, junk food and other, by threatening or attacking the
child will become a criminal.
This is very predictable, unless an effective treatment is implemented
to stop his ways.
2) A God Almighty has the power to change the minds of the evil
people. Why does He not act accordingly to this power?
Because the god does not exist.
I know God does not exist. But you cannot argue with theist as if they
were rational beings A few of them are sensible to idea that there is
something called morality. Some of them really want to love Good and
Justice, and they also want to reject Evil and mendacity.
So you have to argue with them as if you were a sort of priest. To
argument with a elements of a formulae that could pass through the
barrier of their neurons. Not all chemical molecules can pass through
the membranes of the neurons.
Leopoldo
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
The laws that require me to NOT kill people I don't like REALLY bug
me, or there would be many less of YOUR kind.
-John Weatherly
.
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