| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Erich Kohl" |
| Date: |
03 Jun 2006 06:58:53 PM |
| Object: |
Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
My fellow atheists,
Everything was going along fine for me, now I'm in such a bad mood
because I ended up talking politics with my conservative uncle last
night.
Before I get into anything he said, let me defend him by saying that
he's generally a nice, law-abiding kind of guy, and I do agree with
him on some points.
However, he actually ended up saying that if I can't accept that fact
that cable news stations like Fox news always present ONLY THE FACTS
with NO SPIN (unlike NBC, CBS, etc.), then he said he has nothing
further to say to me. I'm not sure if he meant just in this
particular conversation or from now on altogether, but it felt like I
was being shunned a little.
When I asked him how he knows that, he said simply because he does,
because they only show the facts. When I asked him for just ONE of
those facts that they show on that news channel, he couldn't think of
any (but hey, that's happened to all of us, right?). And he also said
this is why it's rated as the #1 source for news.
I knew that this sounded like circular logic (I couldn't think of the
term at the time, but I wish I had). I gave him an example: In the
Bible, it says right within its pages that it can't be wrong because
it says so! It's the word of God, therefore the Bible can't be wrong,
because it says so in the Bible itself!
He said, "Well, of course! That's right!" (But in his defense, I
must say that he's no religious nut and doesn't go to church
regularly, but he does believe that it's all right if people have
their own individual relationships with "their own god.")
Now, I want to embrace the truth now matter how painful, and whether
it comes from a liberal side or a conservative side. I asked him more
than once what his definition of a liberal was, and he couldn't give
me a straight answer.
Help me out. Is my uncle just set in his ways and unable to see
points of view other than his own?
.
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| User: "GoDrex" |
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| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
03 Jun 2006 08:58:49 PM |
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"Erich Kohl" <ekohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:re4482pqhei05a018k71hckpa4clbr7b80@4ax.com...
My fellow atheists,
Everything was going along fine for me, now I'm in such a bad mood
because I ended up talking politics with my conservative uncle last
night.
Before I get into anything he said, let me defend him by saying that
he's generally a nice, law-abiding kind of guy, and I do agree with
him on some points.
However, he actually ended up saying that if I can't accept that fact
that cable news stations like Fox news always present ONLY THE FACTS
with NO SPIN (unlike NBC, CBS, etc.), then he said he has nothing
further to say to me. I'm not sure if he meant just in this
particular conversation or from now on altogether, but it felt like I
was being shunned a little.
When I asked him how he knows that, he said simply because he does,
because they only show the facts. When I asked him for just ONE of
those facts that they show on that news channel, he couldn't think of
any (but hey, that's happened to all of us, right?). And he also said
this is why it's rated as the #1 source for news.
I knew that this sounded like circular logic (I couldn't think of the
term at the time, but I wish I had). I gave him an example: In the
Bible, it says right within its pages that it can't be wrong because
it says so! It's the word of God, therefore the Bible can't be wrong,
because it says so in the Bible itself!
He said, "Well, of course! That's right!" (But in his defense, I
must say that he's no religious nut and doesn't go to church
regularly, but he does believe that it's all right if people have
their own individual relationships with "their own god.")
Now, I want to embrace the truth now matter how painful, and whether
it comes from a liberal side or a conservative side. I asked him more
than once what his definition of a liberal was, and he couldn't give
me a straight answer.
Help me out. Is my uncle just set in his ways and unable to see
points of view other than his own?
it's hopeless - anyone that can't see how skewed FOX is, is beyond your
reach....
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
05 Jun 2006 01:00:30 PM |
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"Erich Kohl" <ekohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:re4482pqhei05a018k71hckpa4clbr7b80@4ax.com...
My fellow atheists,
Everything was going along fine for me, now I'm in such a bad mood
because I ended up talking politics with my conservative uncle last
night.
Before I get into anything he said, let me defend him by saying that
he's generally a nice, law-abiding kind of guy, and I do agree with
him on some points.
However, he actually ended up saying that if I can't accept that fact
that cable news stations like Fox news always present ONLY THE FACTS
with NO SPIN (unlike NBC, CBS, etc.), then he said he has nothing
further to say to me. I'm not sure if he meant just in this
particular conversation or from now on altogether, but it felt like I
was being shunned a little.
When I asked him how he knows that, he said simply because he does,
because they only show the facts. When I asked him for just ONE of
those facts that they show on that news channel, he couldn't think of
any (but hey, that's happened to all of us, right?). And he also said
this is why it's rated as the #1 source for news.
I knew that this sounded like circular logic (I couldn't think of the
term at the time, but I wish I had). I gave him an example: In the
Bible, it says right within its pages that it can't be wrong because
it says so! It's the word of God, therefore the Bible can't be wrong,
because it says so in the Bible itself!
He said, "Well, of course! That's right!" (But in his defense, I
must say that he's no religious nut and doesn't go to church
regularly, but he does believe that it's all right if people have
their own individual relationships with "their own god.")
Now, I want to embrace the truth now matter how painful, and whether
it comes from a liberal side or a conservative side. I asked him more
than once what his definition of a liberal was, and he couldn't give
me a straight answer.
Help me out. Is my uncle just set in his ways and unable to see
points of view other than his own?
How important is it for you to maintain a relationship with this person?
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
Atheist ***** Extraordinaire
#1557
.
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| User: "Erich Kohl" |
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| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
06 Jun 2006 08:29:40 AM |
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On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:00:30 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Erich Kohl" <ekohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:re4482pqhei05a018k71hckpa4clbr7b80@4ax.com...
Help me out. Is my uncle just set in his ways and unable to see
points of view other than his own?
How important is it for you to maintain a relationship with this person?
I don't want it destroyed over this, but I can't help but feel angry
toward him for being what I _perceive_ to be narrow-minded and
fanatical.
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
06 Jun 2006 09:44:51 AM |
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"Erich Kohl" <ekohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:op0b829c1pbi92pbo4qtv6fqie0lglh60s@4ax.com...
On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:00:30 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Erich Kohl" <ekohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:re4482pqhei05a018k71hckpa4clbr7b80@4ax.com...
Help me out. Is my uncle just set in his ways and unable to see
points of view other than his own?
How important is it for you to maintain a relationship with this person?
I don't want it destroyed over this, but I can't help but feel angry
toward him for being what I _perceive_ to be narrow-minded and
fanatical.
Personally, I think you have to either accept him as he is (believe me,
older people do NOT change) or stop hanging out with him.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
Atheist ***** Extraordinaire
#1557
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
06 Jun 2006 06:29:52 PM |
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On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:44:51 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
- Refer: <4elihkF1flm9pU1@individual.net>
"Erich Kohl" <ekohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:op0b829c1pbi92pbo4qtv6fqie0lglh60s@4ax.com...
On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:00:30 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Erich Kohl" <ekohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:re4482pqhei05a018k71hckpa4clbr7b80@4ax.com...
Help me out. Is my uncle just set in his ways and unable to see
points of view other than his own?
How important is it for you to maintain a relationship with this person?
I don't want it destroyed over this, but I can't help but feel angry
toward him for being what I _perceive_ to be narrow-minded and
fanatical.
Personally, I think you have to either accept him as he is (believe me,
older people do NOT change) or stop hanging out with him.
Or use him as free entertainment!
--
Michael Gray.
Founding Member and Doorman,
Earthquack's 666 Club.
EAC Apprentice Thumbscrew Oiler.
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
07 Jun 2006 10:22:06 AM |
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"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:3v3c8256uansv6trej7lr75mi56ucar91p@4ax.com...
On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:44:51 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
- Refer: <4elihkF1flm9pU1@individual.net>
"Erich Kohl" <ekohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:op0b829c1pbi92pbo4qtv6fqie0lglh60s@4ax.com...
On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:00:30 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Erich Kohl" <ekohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:re4482pqhei05a018k71hckpa4clbr7b80@4ax.com...
Help me out. Is my uncle just set in his ways and unable to see
points of view other than his own?
How important is it for you to maintain a relationship with this person?
I don't want it destroyed over this, but I can't help but feel angry
toward him for being what I _perceive_ to be narrow-minded and
fanatical.
Personally, I think you have to either accept him as he is (believe me,
older people do NOT change) or stop hanging out with him.
Or use him as free entertainment!
Believe me - After a while it stops being entertaining :P
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
Atheist ***** Extraordinaire
#1557
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
08 Jun 2006 02:39:47 AM |
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On Wed, 7 Jun 2006 11:22:06 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
- Refer: <4eo93fF1fompgU1@individual.net>
"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:3v3c8256uansv6trej7lr75mi56ucar91p@4ax.com...
On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:44:51 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
- Refer: <4elihkF1flm9pU1@individual.net>
"Erich Kohl" <ekohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:op0b829c1pbi92pbo4qtv6fqie0lglh60s@4ax.com...
On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:00:30 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Erich Kohl" <ekohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:re4482pqhei05a018k71hckpa4clbr7b80@4ax.com...
Help me out. Is my uncle just set in his ways and unable to see
points of view other than his own?
How important is it for you to maintain a relationship with this person?
I don't want it destroyed over this, but I can't help but feel angry
toward him for being what I _perceive_ to be narrow-minded and
fanatical.
Personally, I think you have to either accept him as he is (believe me,
older people do NOT change) or stop hanging out with him.
Or use him as free entertainment!
Believe me - After a while it stops being entertaining :P
Not if you purchase my "Robotic Fox-Moron Party Compendium Pack".
Fun for the 'hole' of the Family!
You get:
* A joke-Bible that makes a realistic farting noise!
* A mock video-tape of FOX News made by Australian Atheists!
* A six-pack of beer made from real goat's urine!
* A list of annoying sayings, as compiled from alt.atheism!
Hours of guaranteed fun!
But don't phone now, because you also get a FREE set of Snake Lives!
Yes: a vicious taipan to slip down the moron's track-suit pants!
You'll laugh until you stop!
Our call-centre staff are standing by, picking their teeth, and
talking to their boyfriends, pretending to be working.
--
Michael Gray.
Founding Member and Doorman,
Earthquack's 666 Club.
EAC Apprentice Thumbscrew Oiler.
.
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| User: "Terry Austin" |
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| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
03 Jun 2006 07:22:25 PM |
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Erich Kohl <ekohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
news:re4482pqhei05a018k71hckpa4clbr7b80@4ax.com:
My fellow atheists,
Everything was going along fine for me, now I'm in such a bad mood
because I ended up talking politics with my conservative uncle last
night.
Before I get into anything he said, let me defend him by saying that
he's generally a nice, law-abiding kind of guy, and I do agree with
him on some points.
However, he actually ended up saying that if I can't accept that fact
that cable news stations like Fox news always present ONLY THE FACTS
with NO SPIN (unlike NBC, CBS, etc.), then he said he has nothing
further to say to me.
"Well, if you are that mentally retarded, then I'm glad I will never, ever
have to interact with you again. Life is too short to argue with retards."
Why would you *want* to ever associate with such a dipshit again?
Help me out. Is my uncle just set in his ways and unable to see
points of view other than his own?
He's either mentally retarded, or mentally ill. Is he old enough for
senility to be a concern? Perhaps he should be put in a home for his own
good.
--
Terry Austin
.
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| User: "Scott Richter" |
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| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
04 Jun 2006 12:21:29 PM |
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Erich Kohl <ekohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Help me out. Is my uncle just set in his ways and unable to see
points of view other than his own?
Your situation is not at all uncommon. Many people find their parents or
other relatives watch Fox News as their only source of information, or
buy into the hate-filled rhetoric of dangerous idiots like Bill
O'Reilly.
In my own situation, whenever one of the worst Fox Nazis comes on, I
just excuse myself from the room and go do something else. I don't think
it's generally possible to open other people's eyes to the negative
influence Fox News has on people, it's something you must arrive at for
yourself. Certainly it is not worth damaging relationships with your own
family over it.
What I have found works is to expose them to non-threatening
alternatives they wouldn't discover on their own. For example, a few
years ago, I rented Koyaanisqatsi when my parents were visiting. It
conveys an important message about modern society and man's influence on
the planet, but doesn't hit the viewer over the head with it (like, say,
Fahrenheit 911 does). Since then, my father has become interested in
global warming, and undertook his own journey to understand it
better--and after they got home from that visit, he went out and bought
a copy of Koyaanisqatsi of his own!
.
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| User: "Josh Miles" |
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| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
06 Jun 2006 09:44:07 AM |
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Erich Kohl wrote:
My fellow atheists,
Everything was going along fine for me, now I'm in such a bad mood
because I ended up talking politics with my conservative uncle last
night.
Before I get into anything he said, let me defend him by saying that
he's generally a nice, law-abiding kind of guy, and I do agree with
him on some points.
However, he actually ended up saying that if I can't accept that fact
that cable news stations like Fox news always present ONLY THE FACTS
with NO SPIN (unlike NBC, CBS, etc.),
Tell him he should research the issues independently, and then see if
Fox is biased. This, however, will probably do little good; he probably
won't do it. But hey, at least you can say you tried.
then he said he has nothing further to say to me.
I'm not sure if he meant just in this particular conversation
or from now on altogether, but it felt like I was being shunned a little.
Probably the former. People often resort to cutting the conversation
short when they have nothing to say (Fox's own Bill O'Reilly is a good
example of this!).
When I asked him how he knows that, he said simply because he does,
because they only show the facts. When I asked him for just ONE of
those facts that they show on that news channel, he couldn't think of
any (but hey, that's happened to all of us, right?). And he also said
this is why it's rated as the #1 source for news.
Number one according to whom? Fox? *They* always say they're number one,
but that doesn't mean anything. And even if they were number 1, that
still wouldn't mean that they're the best. "Number 1" is just a measure
of popularity, not quality.
I knew that this sounded like circular logic (I couldn't think of the
term at the time, but I wish I had). I gave him an example: In the
Bible, it says right within its pages that it can't be wrong because
it says so! It's the word of God, therefore the Bible can't be wrong,
because it says so in the Bible itself!
He said, "Well, of course! That's right!" (But in his defense, I
must say that he's no religious nut and doesn't go to church
regularly, but he does believe that it's all right if people have
their own individual relationships with "their own god.")
The Bible example is a good one, but it probably wasn't a good one to
use with him. You say he's not a religious nut, but it seems very likely
that he *does* think the Bible is a reliable source of information.
Now, I want to embrace the truth now matter how painful, and whether
it comes from a liberal side or a conservative side. I asked him more
than once what his definition of a liberal was, and he couldn't give
me a straight answer.
Figures.
Help me out. Is my uncle just set in his ways and unable to see
points of view other than his own?
Probably. His mind is impenetrable to logic and rational thought, it
seems. It would probably be best to avoid talking to him about politics
in the future.
.
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| User: "Erich Kohl" |
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| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
06 Jun 2006 04:00:06 PM |
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On Tue, 06 Jun 2006 09:44:07 -0500, Josh Miles <no@thanks.com> wrote:
then he said he has nothing further to say to me.
I'm not sure if he meant just in this particular conversation
or from now on altogether, but it felt like I was being shunned a little.
Probably the former. People often resort to cutting the conversation
short when they have nothing to say (Fox's own Bill O'Reilly is a good
example of this!).
I'm starting to think that what he didn't like was perhaps the fact
that it may have sounded like I was suggesting that his *source* of
news wasn't reliable at all, that one couldn't extract *any* type of
fact from it. I didn't necessarily mean that; I was just trying to
get him to agree that out of all the news sources, Fox probably has
the most right-wing and/or conservative "agenda."
But *I* was big enough in that conversation to suggest that we're
*all* biased, and he didn't seem to think that applied to his views.
Only to the left mainstream media.
I also like to use *asterisks* around some of my words. ;-)
Now, I want to embrace the truth now matter how painful, and whether
it comes from a liberal side or a conservative side. I asked him more
than once what his definition of a liberal was, and he couldn't give
me a straight answer.
Figures.
Of course, in all fairness, maybe I also don't have a perfect
understanding of what "conservative" means, just like he doesn't
realize that he throws around the word "liberal" without a clear
perception of its definition.
Or ... maybe he *does* have his own definition, but maybe not one that
true, progressive, forward-thinking liberals like to use.
I have a feeling "liberal" to him means tax-wasting, Democrat,
give-in-to-communism, punish-the-wealthy type of people.
.
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| User: "Josh Miles" |
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| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
06 Jun 2006 07:44:45 PM |
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Erich Kohl wrote:
On Tue, 06 Jun 2006 09:44:07 -0500, Josh Miles <no@thanks.com> wrote:
Now, I want to embrace the truth now matter how painful, and whether
it comes from a liberal side or a conservative side. I asked him more
than once what his definition of a liberal was, and he couldn't give
me a straight answer.
Figures.
Of course, in all fairness, maybe I also don't have a perfect
understanding of what "conservative" means, just like he doesn't
realize that he throws around the word "liberal" without a clear
perception of its definition.
Or ... maybe he *does* have his own definition, but maybe not one that
true, progressive, forward-thinking liberals like to use.
I have a feeling "liberal" to him means tax-wasting, Democrat,
give-in-to-communism, punish-the-wealthy type of people.
Sounds like Fox's definition--along with baby
killer/atheist/anti-American/anti-family/"pro-gay" (whatever that
means)/anti-Christianity and so on. They've really demonized the word.
If Fox calls you a liberal, you know you've done something ***** them off!
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
13 Jun 2006 09:15:52 AM |
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Erich Kohl wrote:
My fellow atheists,
Everything was going along fine for me, now I'm in such a bad mood
because I ended up talking politics with my conservative uncle last
night.
Before I get into anything he said, let me defend him by saying that
he's generally a nice, law-abiding kind of guy, and I do agree with
him on some points.
However, he actually ended up saying that if I can't accept that fact
that cable news stations like Fox news always present ONLY THE FACTS
with NO SPIN (unlike NBC, CBS, etc.), then he said he has nothing
further to say to me. I'm not sure if he meant just in this
particular conversation or from now on altogether, but it felt like I
was being shunned a little.
When I asked him how he knows that, he said simply because he does,
because they only show the facts. When I asked him for just ONE of
those facts that they show on that news channel, he couldn't think of
any (but hey, that's happened to all of us, right?). And he also said
this is why it's rated as the #1 source for news.
I knew that this sounded like circular logic (I couldn't think of the
term at the time, but I wish I had). I gave him an example: In the
Because you are such a crackpot trying to debate things you have no
clue in
Bible, it says right within its pages that it can't be wrong because
it says so! It's the word of God, therefore the Bible can't be wrong,
because it says so in the Bible itself!
He said, "Well, of course! That's right!" (But in his defense, I
must say that he's no religious nut and doesn't go to church
regularly, but he does believe that it's all right if people have
their own individual relationships with "their own god.")
Now, I want to embrace the truth now matter how painful, and whether
it comes from a liberal side or a conservative side. I asked him more
than once what his definition of a liberal was, and he couldn't give
me a straight answer.
Help me out. Is my uncle just set in his ways and unable to see
points of view other than his own?
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
05 Jun 2006 09:24:46 AM |
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Erich Kohl wrote:
My fellow atheists,
Everything was going along fine for me, now I'm in such a bad mood
because I ended up talking politics with my conservative uncle last
night.
Before I get into anything he said, let me defend him by saying that
he's generally a nice, law-abiding kind of guy, and I do agree with
him on some points.
However, he actually ended up saying that if I can't accept that fact
that cable news stations like Fox news always present ONLY THE FACTS
with NO SPIN (unlike NBC, CBS, etc.), then he said he has nothing
further to say to me. I'm not sure if he meant just in this
particular conversation or from now on altogether, but it felt like I
was being shunned a little.
When I asked him how he knows that, he said simply because he does,
because they only show the facts. When I asked him for just ONE of
those facts that they show on that news channel, he couldn't think of
any (but hey, that's happened to all of us, right?). And he also said
this is why it's rated as the #1 source for news.
I knew that this sounded like circular logic (I couldn't think of the
term at the time, but I wish I had). I gave him an example: In the
Bible, it says right within its pages that it can't be wrong because
it says so! It's the word of God, therefore the Bible can't be wrong,
because it says so in the Bible itself!
He said, "Well, of course! That's right!" (But in his defense, I
must say that he's no religious nut and doesn't go to church
regularly, but he does believe that it's all right if people have
their own individual relationships with "their own god.")
Now, I want to embrace the truth now matter how painful, and whether
it comes from a liberal side or a conservative side. I asked him more
than once what his definition of a liberal was, and he couldn't give
me a straight answer.
Help me out. Is my uncle just set in his ways and unable to see
points of view other than his own?
Well, maybe, but people get a little set in their ways as they get
older.
On the other hand, he's not *completely* wrong.
FOX isn't completely balanced, but neither are any of the other news
outlets. You can have bias not only in how you report, but in what you
choose to report, and how you caption that report.
http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/page.asp?RelNum=6664
To be honest, it sounds like you're a little flumoxed because you
believe FOX isn't balanced, but you don't watch it -- same as he thinks
FOX is more balanced than the other stations he doesn't watch. Which
means you're both operating from opinion on a subject that's secondary,
in my own opinion (haha) to any given news story.
We have tons of vigorous political discussions in my house, and the
range of opinions is fairly wide. If you're actually interested in
discussing politics with your uncle (as opposed to showing him the
error of his ways, which is a little off-putting from the get-go) I'd
suggest discussing something you feel passionately about and know a
good bit about. More than anything, I'd suggest keeping in mind that
you're family. Truly, it is possible to have great discussions, where
both sides learn something, even with some shouting involved, without
edging into damaging the relationship. However, if either you or he
are the sort of person for whom disagreement on politics is going to be
translated as dislike/disdain/disrespect/etc, I'd skip discussing it at
all.
Sunny
.
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| User: "chibiabos" |
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| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
05 Jun 2006 06:21:10 PM |
|
|
In article <1149517486.938813.263200@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
<"stillsunny1@yahoo.com"> wrote:
Erich Kohl wrote:
My fellow atheists,
Everything was going along fine for me, now I'm in such a bad mood
because I ended up talking politics with my conservative uncle last
night.
Before I get into anything he said, let me defend him by saying that
he's generally a nice, law-abiding kind of guy, and I do agree with
him on some points.
However, he actually ended up saying that if I can't accept that fact
that cable news stations like Fox news always present ONLY THE FACTS
with NO SPIN (unlike NBC, CBS, etc.), then he said he has nothing
further to say to me. I'm not sure if he meant just in this
particular conversation or from now on altogether, but it felt like I
was being shunned a little.
When I asked him how he knows that, he said simply because he does,
because they only show the facts. When I asked him for just ONE of
those facts that they show on that news channel, he couldn't think of
any (but hey, that's happened to all of us, right?). And he also said
this is why it's rated as the #1 source for news.
I knew that this sounded like circular logic (I couldn't think of the
term at the time, but I wish I had). I gave him an example: In the
Bible, it says right within its pages that it can't be wrong because
it says so! It's the word of God, therefore the Bible can't be wrong,
because it says so in the Bible itself!
He said, "Well, of course! That's right!" (But in his defense, I
must say that he's no religious nut and doesn't go to church
regularly, but he does believe that it's all right if people have
their own individual relationships with "their own god.")
Now, I want to embrace the truth now matter how painful, and whether
it comes from a liberal side or a conservative side. I asked him more
than once what his definition of a liberal was, and he couldn't give
me a straight answer.
Help me out. Is my uncle just set in his ways and unable to see
points of view other than his own?
Well, maybe, but people get a little set in their ways as they get
older.
Knees start to go, too. :)
-chib
--
Member of SMASH
Sarcastic Middla Aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor
.
|
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
06 Jun 2006 07:45:28 AM |
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|
chibiabos wrote:
In article <1149517486.938813.263200@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
<"stillsunny1@yahoo.com"> wrote:
Erich Kohl wrote:
My fellow atheists,
<snip>
Help me out. Is my uncle just set in his ways and unable to see
points of view other than his own?
Well, maybe, but people get a little set in their ways as they get
older.
Knees start to go, too. :)
Among other things ...
Sunny
like *hair*!
.
|
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|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
09 Jun 2006 08:45:41 PM |
|
|
On 6 Jun 2006 05:45:28 -0700, "stillsunny1@yahoo.com"
<stillsunny1@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.atheism
chibiabos wrote:
In article <1149517486.938813.263200@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
<"stillsunny1@yahoo.com"> wrote:
Erich Kohl wrote:
My fellow atheists,
<snip>
Help me out. Is my uncle just set in his ways and unable to see
points of view other than his own?
Well, maybe, but people get a little set in their ways as they get
older.
Knees start to go, too. :)
Among other things ...
Sunny
like *hair*!
Hair? [puzzled look]
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
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| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
09 Jun 2006 08:44:56 PM |
|
|
On 5 Jun 2006 07:24:46 -0700, "stillsunny1@yahoo.com"
<stillsunny1@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Erich Kohl wrote:
My fellow atheists,
Everything was going along fine for me, now I'm in such a bad mood
because I ended up talking politics with my conservative uncle last
night.
[]
Now, I want to embrace the truth now matter how painful, and whether
it comes from a liberal side or a conservative side. I asked him more
than once what his definition of a liberal was, and he couldn't give
me a straight answer.
Help me out. Is my uncle just set in his ways and unable to see
points of view other than his own?
Well, maybe, but people get a little set in their ways as they get
older.
On the other hand, he's not *completely* wrong.
FOX isn't completely balanced, but neither are any of the other news
outlets. You can have bias not only in how you report, but in what you
choose to report, and how you caption that report.
http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/page.asp?RelNum=6664
To be honest, it sounds like you're a little flumoxed because you
believe FOX isn't balanced, but you don't watch it -- same as he thinks
FOX is more balanced than the other stations he doesn't watch. Which
means you're both operating from opinion on a subject that's secondary,
in my own opinion (haha) to any given news story.
We have tons of vigorous political discussions in my house, and the
range of opinions is fairly wide. If you're actually interested in
discussing politics with your uncle (as opposed to showing him the
error of his ways, which is a little off-putting from the get-go) I'd
suggest discussing something you feel passionately about and know a
good bit about. More than anything, I'd suggest keeping in mind that
you're family. Truly, it is possible to have great discussions, where
both sides learn something, even with some shouting involved, without
edging into damaging the relationship. However, if either you or he
are the sort of person for whom disagreement on politics is going to be
translated as dislike/disdain/disrespect/etc, I'd skip discussing it at
all.
YAY! Sunny lady's back for a few moments. :)
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
10 Jun 2006 02:47:53 PM |
|
|
stoney wrote:
On 5 Jun 2006 07:24:46 -0700, "stillsunny1@yahoo.com"
<stillsunny1@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Erich Kohl wrote:
My fellow atheists,
Everything was going along fine for me, now I'm in such a bad mood
because I ended up talking politics with my conservative uncle last
night.
[]
YAY! Sunny lady's back for a few moments. :)
Only for a minute, sweetheart :-)
We're busy trying to move, into a house which isn't yet finished.
It's a little time consuming!
But I keep an eye on things here from time to time :-)
Sunny
.
|
|
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| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
11 Jun 2006 03:32:56 PM |
|
|
On 10 Jun 2006 12:47:53 -0700, "stillsunny1@yahoo.com"
<stillsunny1@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.atheism
stoney wrote:
On 5 Jun 2006 07:24:46 -0700, "stillsunny1@yahoo.com"
<stillsunny1@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Erich Kohl wrote:
My fellow atheists,
Everything was going along fine for me, now I'm in such a bad mood
because I ended up talking politics with my conservative uncle last
night.
[]
YAY! Sunny lady's back for a few moments. :)
Only for a minute, sweetheart :-)
We're busy trying to move, into a house which isn't yet finished.
It's a little time consuming!
Yeah, it would be. Congrats on the new digs. :D
But I keep an eye on things here from time to time :-)
Ruh Roh 'Rorge...... ;)
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
|
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| User: "Erich Kohl" |
|
| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
06 Jun 2006 10:07:00 AM |
|
|
On 5 Jun 2006 07:24:46 -0700, "stillsunny1@yahoo.com"
<stillsunny1@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well, maybe, but people get a little set in their ways as they get
older.
On the other hand, he's not *completely* wrong.
FOX isn't completely balanced, but neither are any of the other news
outlets. You can have bias not only in how you report, but in what you
choose to report, and how you caption that report.
No, he's not completely wrong, which I am beginning to see, and it
takes a lot to admit that because sometimes it seems like we are on
opposite sides of the pole, and I want to win for my side, naturally.
For example, he's not wrong on this extremely excellent point: "You
can go anywhere in this country and drink the water!" Therefore, the
United States is the greatest country in the world.
Sigh ... see, this is what I'm up against. Yes, I admit I have to
agree, we seem to have good drinking water here, and I like that. But
who fought to clean up the water? Conservative Republicans? Don't
they usually think that there's never anything wrong with the
environment in the first place?
http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/page.asp?RelNum=6664
To be honest, it sounds like you're a little flumoxed because you
believe FOX isn't balanced, but you don't watch it -- same as he thinks
FOX is more balanced than the other stations he doesn't watch. Which
means you're both operating from opinion on a subject that's secondary,
in my own opinion (haha) to any given news story.
We have tons of vigorous political discussions in my house, and the
range of opinions is fairly wide. If you're actually interested in
discussing politics with your uncle (as opposed to showing him the
error of his ways, which is a little off-putting from the get-go) I'd
suggest discussing something you feel passionately about and know a
good bit about. More than anything, I'd suggest keeping in mind that
you're family. Truly, it is possible to have great discussions, where
both sides learn something, even with some shouting involved, without
edging into damaging the relationship. However, if either you or he
are the sort of person for whom disagreement on politics is going to be
translated as dislike/disdain/disrespect/etc, I'd skip discussing it at
all.
Sunny
You have given me some very good advice.
All I know is, our family has always been fairly close, and political
discussions are not new. We still visit with each other, even after
shouting matches. It's happened over and over.
However, political discussions for *me* are fairly new, because it's
only been recently (relatively) that I've started to become interested
in these kinds of matters. I'm new at figuring out how to handle the
feelings involved.
I'd like to *think* that we could talk about these subjects without
becomming enemies. Because after all, what good reason is there for
us to start hating each other? We have the gift of language. We
should be able to use it sensibly.
P.S. I don't hate this country.
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
07 Jun 2006 08:18:22 AM |
|
|
Erich Kohl wrote:
On 5 Jun 2006 07:24:46 -0700, "stillsunny1@yahoo.com"
<stillsunny1@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well, maybe, but people get a little set in their ways as they get
older.
On the other hand, he's not *completely* wrong.
FOX isn't completely balanced, but neither are any of the other news
outlets. You can have bias not only in how you report, but in what you
choose to report, and how you caption that report.
No, he's not completely wrong, which I am beginning to see, and it
takes a lot to admit that because sometimes it seems like we are on
opposite sides of the pole, and I want to win for my side, naturally.
Of course you do.
For example, he's not wrong on this extremely excellent point: "You
can go anywhere in this country and drink the water!" Therefore, the
United States is the greatest country in the world.
LOL!
Sigh ... see, this is what I'm up against. Yes, I admit I have to
agree, we seem to have good drinking water here, and I like that. But
who fought to clean up the water? Conservative Republicans? Don't
they usually think that there's never anything wrong with the
environment in the first place?
Actually, you got me curious.
http://www.epa.gov/r5water/cwa.htm
President in 1972 was Nixon; in 1977 it was Ford.
http://www.uga.edu/srel/ecoview8-1-99.htm
You have given me some very good advice.
All I know is, our family has always been fairly close, and political
discussions are not new. We still visit with each other, even after
shouting matches. It's happened over and over.
That's a sign of a healthy family. It's good to not only be allowed to
form your own opinions, but have them vigorously challenged.
However, political discussions for *me* are fairly new, because it's
only been recently (relatively) that I've started to become interested
in these kinds of matters. I'm new at figuring out how to handle the
feelings involved.
I think there's a lot of passion involved when you first start forming
and debating your opinions. It can be frustrating, because what seems
so obvious to you isn't necessarily obvious to those you love and
respect. Passion is excellent, and when it's tempered with
intellectual curiosity and honesty, is probably the very best thing for
the entire country. I'm always deeply encouraged to discover others
who are more interested in actually understanding what's going on and
working for something better than in sound-bite politics that seeks
only to diminish the other.
I'd like to *think* that we could talk about these subjects without
becomming enemies. Because after all, what good reason is there for
us to start hating each other? We have the gift of language. We
should be able to use it sensibly.
Precisely.
I should note, however, that I've found there are certain subjects I
simply cannot discuss with certain members of my family. And it's
okay, really. My father in law is a deeply fundamentalist Christian,
and I understand why he is that (he came late to religion, after my
mother in law died, and it means a great deal to him). So when he
makes comments like, "I don't understand why we support Israel. After
all, they rejected Christ," I simply say, "Hm," smile, and change the
subject.
P.S. I don't hate this country.
I never thought you did. I think you're an asset to it.
Sunny
.
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| User: "Gordon Hill" |
|
| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
03 Jun 2006 08:17:23 PM |
|
|
Erich Kohl wrote:
My fellow atheists,
Everything was going along fine for me, now I'm in such a bad mood
because I ended up talking politics with my conservative uncle last
night.
Before I get into anything he said, let me defend him by saying that
he's generally a nice, law-abiding kind of guy, and I do agree with
him on some points.
However, he actually ended up saying that if I can't accept that fact
that cable news stations like Fox news always present ONLY THE FACTS
with NO SPIN (unlike NBC, CBS, etc.), then he said he has nothing
further to say to me. I'm not sure if he meant just in this
particular conversation or from now on altogether, but it felt like I
was being shunned a little.
Erich, you may be better off not talking to him, but it's not his
conservatism that is at issue, it's the hardening of his reasoning
arteries... he has stopped thinking. It is an affliction from which
none of us are immune. The first sign is a statement that begins,
"Well the __label__ are always..."
You might try to guide the conversation to something that is
controversial, engage him in something softer where nobody wins or
loses like whether a marathon runner or cross country skier is the
better conditioned athlete (just an example) then try to examine both
sides yourself.
GH
When I asked him how he knows that, he said simply because he does,
because they only show the facts. When I asked him for just ONE of
those facts that they show on that news channel, he couldn't think of
any (but hey, that's happened to all of us, right?). And he also said
this is why it's rated as the #1 source for news.
I knew that this sounded like circular logic (I couldn't think of the
term at the time, but I wish I had). I gave him an example: In the
Bible, it says right within its pages that it can't be wrong because
it says so! It's the word of God, therefore the Bible can't be wrong,
because it says so in the Bible itself!
He said, "Well, of course! That's right!" (But in his defense, I
must say that he's no religious nut and doesn't go to church
regularly, but he does believe that it's all right if people have
their own individual relationships with "their own god.")
Now, I want to embrace the truth now matter how painful, and whether
it comes from a liberal side or a conservative side. I asked him more
than once what his definition of a liberal was, and he couldn't give
me a straight answer.
Help me out. Is my uncle just set in his ways and unable to see
points of view other than his own?
.
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
09 Jun 2006 08:42:37 PM |
|
|
On 3 Jun 2006 18:17:23 -0700, "Gordon Hill" <gordon@explainer.com> wrote
in alt.atheism
Erich Kohl wrote:
My fellow atheists,
Everything was going along fine for me, now I'm in such a bad mood
because I ended up talking politics with my conservative uncle last
night.
Before I get into anything he said, let me defend him by saying that
he's generally a nice, law-abiding kind of guy, and I do agree with
him on some points.
However, he actually ended up saying that if I can't accept that fact
that cable news stations like Fox news always present ONLY THE FACTS
with NO SPIN (unlike NBC, CBS, etc.), then he said he has nothing
further to say to me. I'm not sure if he meant just in this
particular conversation or from now on altogether, but it felt like I
was being shunned a little.
Erich, you may be better off not talking to him, but it's not his
conservatism that is at issue, it's the hardening of his reasoning
arteries... he has stopped thinking. It is an affliction from which
none of us are immune. The first sign is a statement that begins,
"Well the __label__ are always..."
Not talking to him is a possibility, but I'd suggest staying with 'safe'
subjects.
You might try to guide the conversation to something that is
controversial, engage him in something softer where nobody wins or
loses like whether a marathon runner or cross country skier is the
better conditioned athlete (just an example) then try to examine both
sides yourself.
GH
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
13 Jun 2006 09:10:09 AM |
|
|
Erich Kohl wrote:
My fellow atheists,
Everything was going along fine for me, now I'm in such a bad mood
because I ended up talking politics with my conservative uncle last
night.
Before I get into anything he said, let me defend him by saying that
he's generally a nice, law-abiding kind of guy, and I do agree with
him on some points.
However, he actually ended up saying that if I can't accept that fact
that cable news stations like Fox news always present ONLY THE FACTS
with NO SPIN (unlike NBC, CBS, etc.), then he said he has nothing
further to say to me. I'm not sure if he meant just in this
particular conversation or from now on altogether, but it felt like I
was being shunned a little.
I wish it was from now on altrogether... You run your filthy mouth too
much
When I asked him how he knows that, he said simply because he does,
because they only show the facts. When I asked him for just ONE of
those facts that they show on that news channel, he couldn't think of
any (but hey, that's happened to all of us, right?). And he also said
this is why it's rated as the #1 source for news.
I knew that this sounded like circular logic (I couldn't think of the
term at the time, but I wish I had). I gave him an example: In the
Bible, it says right within its pages that it can't be wrong because
it says so! It's the word of God, therefore the Bible can't be wrong,
because it says so in the Bible itself!
He said, "Well, of course! That's right!" (But in his defense, I
must say that he's no religious nut and doesn't go to church
regularly, but he does believe that it's all right if people have
their own individual relationships with "their own god.")
Now, I want to embrace the truth now matter how painful, and whether
it comes from a liberal side or a conservative side. I asked him more
than once what his definition of a liberal was, and he couldn't give
me a straight answer.
Help me out. Is my uncle just set in his ways and unable to see
points of view other than his own?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Erich Kohl" |
|
| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
13 Jun 2006 07:31:34 PM |
|
|
On 13 Jun 2006 07:10:09 -0700, "codebreaker@bigsecret.com"
<Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote:
further to say to me. I'm not sure if he meant just in this
particular conversation or from now on altogether, but it felt like I
was being shunned a little.
I wish it was from now on altrogether... You run your filthy mouth too
much
You mean like this?
***** ***** ***** ***** ***** DAMN *****!!!
Look, no lightning!
.
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| User: "*nemo*" |
|
| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
04 Jun 2006 05:03:41 AM |
|
|
In article <re4482pqhei05a018k71hckpa4clbr7b80@4ax.com>,
Erich Kohl <ekohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
However, he actually ended up saying that if I can't accept that fact
that cable news stations like Fox news always present ONLY THE FACTS
with NO SPIN (unlike NBC, CBS, etc.), then he said he has nothing
further to say to me.
Sounds like a simple situation. You can't talk politics with the man.
Try the weather... but only local weather. And possibly sports.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.
|
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| User: "Erich Kohl" |
|
| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
04 Jun 2006 10:47:36 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 10:03:41 GMT, *nemo*
<nemo0037@earthlink.dieSPAM.net> wrote:
In article <re4482pqhei05a018k71hckpa4clbr7b80@4ax.com>,
Erich Kohl <ekohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
However, he actually ended up saying that if I can't accept that fact
that cable news stations like Fox news always present ONLY THE FACTS
with NO SPIN (unlike NBC, CBS, etc.), then he said he has nothing
further to say to me.
Sounds like a simple situation. You can't talk politics with the man.
Try the weather... but only local weather. And possibly sports.
Thank you all for your input, I appreciate it.
But getting back to why he would be so in love with Fox news ... I
just don't get it. I've never actually *seen* Fox news because I
don't have cable. Why would he think that Fox is completely unbiased,
as opposed to NBC or ABC? What is so different about the way Fox
presents "the news" that would result in somebody thinking that it's
pure fact, and nothing else? If they show an earthquake or a suicide
bomber in Iraq on NBC and the same earthquake and suicide bomber on
Fox, does that mean that NBC has a liberal agenda, but Fox is simply
the facts?
If you guys could give me a typical example of the kind of news they
show on Fox and the way they present it, it would help me out a bit.
(I mean, in MY opinion, the regular broadcast TV news stations usually
do a good job of presenting both sides of every issue, but hey, I
could be wrong, I suppose.)
.
|
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| User: "Enkidu" |
|
| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
04 Jun 2006 10:51:41 AM |
|
|
Erich Kohl <ekohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
news:hjv582547topk1ho9f8undh47ui4kjs08a@4ax.com:
Why would he think that Fox is completely unbiased,
as opposed to NBC or ABC?
It tells him what he wants to believe.
--
Enkidu AA#2165
http://www.thoughts.leaddogs.org/
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
PGP ID: 0xC4CE8CF0
How many things we held yesterday as articles of faith which today we
tell as fables.
-- Michel De Montaigne
.
|
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| User: "*nemo*" |
|
| Title: Re: Help me PLEASE with my conservative Uncle |
04 Jun 2006 08:02:25 PM |
|
|
In article <hjv582547topk1ho9f8undh47ui4kjs08a@4ax.com>,
Erich Kohl <ekohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I've never actually *seen* Fox news because I
don't have cable. Why would he think that Fox is completely unbiased,
as opposed to NBC or ABC?
I have only been able to watch Fox for at MOST 10 minutes at a time. I
wouldn't be surprised to hear them blame last year's forest fires on
Clinton. Of all the adjectives I could possibly use for those yahoos,
"unbiased" is -- well, nowhere NEAR being on the list.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.
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