Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"
Date:	11 Apr 2005 10:04:21 AM
Object:	Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!

Oh, if only South Africa or the Confederates had Hinduism as a from of
thought control...
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka

aka Yang's little poltregeist *****)
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1546 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!	11 Apr 2005 01:57:41 PM

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

Oh, if only South Africa or the Confederates had Hinduism as a from

thought control...

If they had white Brahmins, colored Brahmins and black Brahmins and
consequently, instances of white Brahmins begging* black people for
food, and if they had a god Krishna depicted as a black man, what would
that have done to their racial policies?
* At Gangapur, there lived a poor Brahmin couple. The Brahmin used to
eke out his livelihood by seeking alms in the village.
http://guru-charitra.shreeswami.org/sri-guru-charitra-chapter-22.htm

Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka

aka Yang's little poltregeist *****)

The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and

counting

The Bush Iraq lie: -1546 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and

mounting

Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless

User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"
Title: Re: Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!	11 Apr 2005 09:06:49 PM

On 11 Apr 2005 11:57:41 -0700, "ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

Oh, if only South Africa or the Confederates had Hinduism as a from

thought control...

No, they would have Black Dalits, Coloured Dalits, and enslaved
Dalits, not unlike the racial theory that underlies Hinduism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalit_%28outcaste%29

* At Gangapur, there lived a poor Brahmin couple. The Brahmin used to
eke out his livelihood by seeking alms in the village.
http://guru-charitra.shreeswami.org/sri-guru-charitra-chapter-22.htm

aka Yang's little poltregeist *****)

The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and

counting

The Bush Iraq lie: -1546 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and

mounting

Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless

-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka

User: ""
Title: Re: Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!	11 Apr 2005 10:48:02 PM

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

On 11 Apr 2005 11:57:41 -0700, "ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

Oh, if only South Africa or the Confederates had Hinduism as a

from

of thought control...

would

that have done to their racial policies?

No,

Why not?

they would have Black Dalits, Coloured Dalits,

.... and white Dalits.

and enslaved
Dalits, not unlike the racial theory that underlies Hinduism.

What racial theory?
.

User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"
Title: Re: Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!	12 Apr 2005 02:22:55 AM

On 11 Apr 2005 20:48:02 -0700, "ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

On 11 Apr 2005 11:57:41 -0700, "ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

Oh, if only South Africa or the Confederates had Hinduism as a

from

of thought control...

would

that have done to their racial policies?

No,

Why not?

they would have Black Dalits, Coloured Dalits,

... and white Dalits.

.... whose children, according to your Hindu racial theory, are
condemned 'tl the end of time. Gee, I wonder why they convert to
Christianity?

and enslaved
Dalits, not unlike the racial theory that underlies Hinduism.

What racial theory?

Your Hindu theory that one group is genetically destined to be
subordinate to everyone else for the rest of eternity is a crime
against humanity.
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka

User: "Dr. Jai Maharaj"
Title: TRIBUTES TO HINDUISM (Was: Re: Hinduism: Celebrating...)	12 Apr 2005 02:39:09 AM

TRIBUTES TO HINDUISM
1. Mahatma Gandhi:
"Hinduism has made marvelous discoveries in things of
religion, of the spirit, of the soul. We have no eye for
these great and fine discoveries. We are dazzled by the
material progress that western science has made. Ancient
India has survived because Hinduism was not developed
along material but spiritual lines.
"India is to me the dearest country in the world, because
I have discovered goodness in it. It has been subject to
foreign rule, it is true. But the status of a slave is
preferable to that of a slave holder."
2. Henry David Thoreau:
"In the morning I bathe my intellect in the stupendous
and cosmogonal philosophy of the Bhagavad Gita in
comparison with which our modern world and its literature
seems puny.
"What extracts from the Vedas I have read fall on me like
the light of a higher and purer luminary, which describes
a loftier course through purer stratum. It rises on me
like the full moon after the stars have come out, wading
through some far stratum in the sky."
3. Arthur Schopenhauer:
"In the whole world there is no study so beneficial and
so elevating as that of the Upanishads. It has been the
solace of my life -- it will be the solace of my death."
4. Ralph Waldo Emerson said this about the Gita:
"I owed a magnificent day to the Bhagavad Gita. It was as
if an empire spoke to us, nothing small or unworthy, but
large, serene, consistent, the voice of an old
intelligence which in another age and climate had
pondered and thus disposed of the same questions which
exercise us."
The famous poem "Brahm" is an example of his Vedanta
ecstasy.
5. Wilhelm von Humboldt pronounced the Gita as:
"The most beautiful, perhaps the only true philosophical
song existing in any known tongue ... perhaps the deepest
and loftiest thing the world has to show."
6. Lord Warren Hastings, the Governor General, was very
much impressed with Hindu philosophy:
"The writers of the Indian philosophies will survive,
when the British dominion in India shall long have ceased
to exist, and when the sources which it yielded of wealth
and power are lost to remembrances."
7. Mark Twain:
"So far as I am able to judge, nothing has been left
undone, either by man or nature, to make India the most
extraordinary country that the sun visits on his rounds.
Nothing seems to have been forgotten, nothing overlooked.
"Land of religions, cradle of human race, birthplace of
human speech, grandmother of legend, great grandmother of
tradition. The land that all men desire to see and having
seen once even by a glimpse, would not give that glimpse
for the shows of the rest of the globe combined."
8. Rudyard Kipling to Fundamental Christian Missionaries:
"Now it is not good for the Christian's health to hustle
the Hindu brown for the Christian riles and the Hindu
smiles and weareth the Christian down; and the end of the
fight is a tombstone while with the name of the late
deceased and the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here who
tried to hustle the east".
9. Jules Michelet, a French historian, said:
"At its starting point in India, the birthplace of races
and religions, the womb of the world." This is what he
said of the Raamyana in 1864: "Whoever has done or willed
too much let him drink from this deep cup a long draught
of life and youth .. . Everything is narrow in the West -
- Greece is small and I stifle; Judea is dry and I pant.
Let me look toward lofty Asia, and the profound East for
a little while. There lies my great poem, as vast as the
Indian ocean, blessed, gilded with the sun, the book of
divine harmony wherein is no dissonance. A serene peace
reigns there, and in the midst of conflict an infinite
sweetness, a boundless fraternity, which spreads over all
living things, an ocean (without bottom or bound) of
love, of pity, of clemency."
10. Shri Aurobindo:
"Hinduism.....gave itself no name, because it set itself
no sectarian limits; it claimed no universal adhesion,
asserted no sole infallible dogma, set up no single
narrow path or gate of salvation; it was less a creed or
cult than a continuously enlarging tradition of the
Godward endeavor of the human spirit. An immense many-
sided and many staged provision for a spiritual self-
building and self-finding, it had some right to speak of
itself by the only name it knew, the eternal religion,
sanaatan dharm...."
11. Will Durant would like the West to learn from India,
tolerance and gentleness and love for all living things:
"Perhaps in return for conquest, arrogance and
spoliation, India will teach us the tolerance and
gentleness of the mature mind, the quiet content of the
unacquisitive soul, the calm of the understanding spirit,
and a unifying, a pacifying love for all living things."
12. Joseph Campbell:
"It is ironic that our great western civilization, which
has opened to the minds of all mankind the infinite
wonders of a universe of untold billions of galaxies
should be saddled with the tightest little cosmological
image known to mankind? The Hindus with their grandiose
Kalpas and their ideas of the divine power which is
beyond all human category (male or female). Not so alien
to the imagery of modern science that it could not have
been put to acceptable use.
"There is an important difference between the Hindu and
the Western ideas. In the Biblical tradition, God creates
man, but man cannot say that he is divine in the same
sense that the Creator is, where as in Hinduism, all
things are incarnations of that power. We are the sparks
from a single fire. And we are all fire. Hinduism
believes in the omnipresence of the Supreme God in every
individual. There is no 'fall'. Man is not cut off from
the divine. He requires only to bring the spontaneous
activity of his mind stuff to a state of stillness and he
will experience that divine principle with him."
13. Sir Monier-Williams:
The Hindus, according to him, were Spinozists more than
2,000 years before the advent of Spinoza, and Darwinians
many centuries before Darwin and Evolutionists many
centuries before the doctrine of Evolution was accepted
by scientists of the present age.
14. Carl Sagan, (the late scientist), asserts that the
dance of Nataraj signifies the cycle of evolution and
destruction of the cosmic universe (Big Bang Theory). "It
is the clearest image of the activity of God which any
art or religion can boast of."
15. Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan, a professor of Eastern
Religions at Oxford and later President of India:
"Hinduism is not just a faith. It is the union of reason
and intuition that cannot be defined but is only to be
experienced. Evil and error are not ultimate. There is no
Hell, for that means there is a place where God is not,
and there are sins which exceed his love."
Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!	12 Apr 2005 08:37:13 AM

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

On 11 Apr 2005 20:48:02 -0700, "ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

On 11 Apr 2005 11:57:41 -0700, "ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

Oh, if only South Africa or the Confederates had Hinduism as a
from of thought control...

If they had white Brahmins, colored Brahmins and black Brahmins

and

consequently, instances of white Brahmins begging* black people

for

food, and if they had a god Krishna depicted as a black man, what
would that have done to their racial policies?

No,

Why not?

they would have Black Dalits, Coloured Dalits,

... and white Dalits.

... whose children, according to your Hindu racial theory, are
condemned 'tl the end of time.

Which would be the condemned group/race in a scenario where black and
white stewardesses serve black and white business travelers?

Gee, I wonder why they convert to Christianity?

Do they convert to Christianity? Has anyone noticed them become more
obedient to masters?:
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so
that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your
master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You
should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by
your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to
obey them. (Timothy 6:1-2)
Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not
with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart (Colossians
3:22; see also Ephesians 6:5-6).
"Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please
them well in all things; not answering again (Titus 2:9-10)

and enslaved
Dalits, not unlike the racial theory that underlies Hinduism.

What racial theory?

Your Hindu theory

If I had a theory, it wouldn't be a Hindu theory.

that one group is genetically destined to be
subordinate to everyone else for the rest of eternity is a crime
against humanity.

So, you agree that the following theory is a crime against humanity?
(Permanent inheritance = for eternity)
you may purchase male or female slaves from among foreigners and treat
them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent
inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of
Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus
25:44-46 NLT)
Now, run along and find us the text of an equivalent Hindu theory.
.

User: "=?windows-1252?Q?Le_G=E9ant?="
Title: Re: Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!	13 Apr 2005 06:47:12 AM

It appears from this verse that during the time of the Pandavas free
contact between man and woman was allowed in certain conditions only.
The higher-caste men, namely the brahmanas and ksatriyas, could accept a
woman of the vaisya or the sudra community, but a man from the lower
castes could not contact a woman of the higher caste. Even a ksatriya
could not contact a woman of the brahmana caste. The wife of a brahmana
is considered one of the seven mothers (namely one's own mother, the
wife of the spiritual master or teacher, the wife of a brahmana, the
wife of a king, the cow, the nurse, and the earth). Such contact between
man and woman was known as uttama and adhama. Contact of a brahmana with
a ksatriya woman is uttama, but the contact of a ksatriya with a
brahmana woman is adhama and therefore condemned. A woman approaching a
man for contact should never be refused, but at the same time the
discretion as above mentioned may also be considered. Bhima was
approached by Hidimbi from a community lower than the sudras, and Yayati
refused to marry the daughter of Sukracarya because of Sukracarya's
being a brahmana. Vyasadeva, a brahmana, was called to beget Pandu and
Dhrtarastra. Satyavati belonged to a family of fishermen, but Parasara,
a great brahmana, begot in her Vyasadeva. So there are so many examples
of contacts with woman, but in all cases the contacts were not
abominable nor were the results of such contacts bad. Contact between
man and woman is natural, but that also must be carried out under
regulative principles so that social consecration may not be disturbed
or unwanted worthless population be increased for the unrest of the world.
(Srila Prabhupada. Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.14.42 purport)
�Thereafter He will be born in the race of Yadus for relieving the earth
of her burden. He will perform many deeds which even the gods cannot do.
He will by his arguments delude those who, being unworthy of it, perform
sacrificial rites. Then in the Kaliyuga, He will slay the Sudra kings.
Bhagavata Dharma
The following are useless: a Khatri without a weapon, a Brahman without
knowl�edge, a Shudra with learning, and a recluse with a woman.
Sikh Rahit-nama
If a Brahmin is a learned pandit and a sage, I
may even render my homage and worship to him, whereas I may treat a
Shudra only as a servant.
M. K. Gandhi 5/25/1925
Serving the Brahmins is the first duty of the Shudra. All the other
actions of a Shudra other than this bear no fruit.
Parashar Smriti
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!	14 Apr 2005 01:43:25 AM

Brahmanic caste system with many examples of casteism. It is not "The
Hindu Caste system" (any more than Apartheid/ Segregation and racism is
"The Christian Caste system"), although it was one of the Hindu caste
systems.
Le G=E9ant wrote:

accept a

woman of the vaisya or the sudra community, but a man from the lower
castes could not contact a woman of the higher caste. Even a ksatriya
could not contact a woman of the brahmana caste. The wife of a

brahmana

is considered one of the seven mothers (namely one's own mother, the
wife of the spiritual master or teacher, the wife of a brahmana, the
wife of a king, the cow, the nurse, and the earth). Such contact

between

man and woman was known as uttama and adhama. Contact of a brahmana

with

a ksatriya woman is uttama, but the contact of a ksatriya with a
brahmana woman is adhama and therefore condemned. A woman approaching

man for contact should never be refused, but at the same time the
discretion as above mentioned may also be considered. Bhima was
approached by Hidimbi from a community lower than the sudras, and

Yayati

refused to marry the daughter of Sukracarya because of Sukracarya's
being a brahmana. Vyasadeva, a brahmana, was called to beget Pandu

and

Dhrtarastra. Satyavati belonged to a family of fishermen, but

Parasara,

a great brahmana, begot in her Vyasadeva. So there are so many

examples

of contacts with woman, but in all cases the contacts were not
abominable nor were the results of such contacts bad. Contact between
man and woman is natural, but that also must be carried out under
regulative principles so that social consecration may not be

disturbed

or unwanted worthless population be increased for the unrest of the

world.

(Srila Prabhupada. Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.14.42 purport)

"Thereafter He will be born in the race of Yadus for relieving the

earth

of her burden. He will perform many deeds which even the gods cannot

do.

He will by his arguments delude those who, being unworthy of it,

perform

sacrificial rites. Then in the Kaliyuga, He will slay the Sudra

kings.

Bhagavata Dharma

The following are useless: a Khatri without a weapon, a Brahman

without

knowl=ADedge, a Shudra with learning, and a recluse with a woman.
Sikh Rahit-nama

If a Brahmin is a learned pandit and a sage, I
may even render my homage and worship to him, whereas I may treat a
Shudra only as a servant.
M. K. Gandhi 5/25/1925

Serving the Brahmins is the first duty of the Shudra. All the other
actions of a Shudra other than this bear no fruit.
Parashar Smriti

User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"
Title: Re: Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!	13 Apr 2005 12:54:46 AM

On 12 Apr 2005 06:37:13 -0700, "ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

On 11 Apr 2005 20:48:02 -0700, "ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

On 11 Apr 2005 11:57:41 -0700, "ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

Oh, if only South Africa or the Confederates had Hinduism as a
from of thought control...

If they had white Brahmins, colored Brahmins and black Brahmins

and

consequently, instances of white Brahmins begging* black people

for

food, and if they had a god Krishna depicted as a black man, what
would that have done to their racial policies?

No,

Why not?

they would have Black Dalits, Coloured Dalits,

... and white Dalits.

... whose children, according to your Hindu racial theory, are
condemned 'tl the end of time.

Which would be the condemned group/race in a scenario where black and
white stewardesses serve black and white business travelers?

Gee, I wonder why they convert to Christianity?

Here's a clue, Hindu boy. I post out of alt.atheism. You think I give
that much stock to Christianity?

If your
master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You
should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by
your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to
obey them. (Timothy 6:1-2)
Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not
with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart (Colossians
3:22; see also Ephesians 6:5-6).
"Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please
them well in all things; not answering again (Titus 2:9-10)

and enslaved
Dalits, not unlike the racial theory that underlies Hinduism.

What racial theory?

Your Hindu theory

If I had a theory, it wouldn't be a Hindu theory.

that one group is genetically destined to be
subordinate to everyone else for the rest of eternity is a crime
against humanity.

So, you agree that the following theory is a crime against humanity?
(Permanent inheritance = for eternity)

Yes, which is why Hinduism is as silly as Christianity in this
regards.

you may purchase male or female slaves from among foreigners and treat
them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent
inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of
Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus
25:44-46 NLT)

Now, run along and find us the text of an equivalent Hindu theory.

User: "Quizz"
Title: Re: Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!	13 Apr 2005 09:32:35 PM

On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 22:54:46 -0700, "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's
Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote:

Here's a clue, Hindu boy. I post out of alt.atheism.

Same on my end. I came to this group because of the Hindu
Fundamentalists who spam on alt.atheism and thought it time to look
into their religion very closely.
As to Mr. Ranjit whether or not he is a Hindu is immaterial, much of
what I have read so far in his posts show him to be a thinker and in
that I hold a respect for him.
And no; I am not a Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist etc.
The real problem is not so much with Hindus but rather with
fundamentalists (remember Janu? / Dr. Jai Maharaj) etc who spam other
groups trying to show that their brand of fundamentalism is 'true'
(the only true way).
Madhu appears to be another one on this group; (soc.culture.indian)
but in his defense at least he does not spam alt.atheism (well as far
as I have noticed).

You think I give that much stock to Christianity?

LOL who does?
I think the point that was being made by the poster was related to
racial colour (and that other faiths also have slavery) which is a
common error in a lot of the older books that deal with origins and
history; i.e. white (or very light) = Brahman caste; Black (or very
dark = the lower castes) and so on.
People often confuse the caste system with racial colour; that is a
common mistake in the West.
The real issue should be the unfair caste system itself and the rules
that were cruelly set down to govern that system (past and present)
along with its current practice (despite claims to the contrary).

Yes, which is why Hinduism is as silly as Christianity in this
regards.

True.

Now, run along and find us the text of an equivalent Hindu theory.

There are a lot of texts in Hinduism that mention slavery, caste,
cruel and abusive treatment, incest, myths, etc (even some by their
own 'gods'). The list of examples would be to long to put in a short
article.
Q.

-----

Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka

aka Yang's little poltregeist *****)

The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1546 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting

Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless

User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"
Title: Re: Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!	13 Apr 2005 11:50:14 PM

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:02:35 +0930, Quizz <quizz@noemail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 22:54:46 -0700, "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's
Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote:

Here's a clue, Hindu boy. I post out of alt.atheism.

Fair enough

And no; I am not a Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist etc.

The real problem is not so much with Hindus but rather with
fundamentalists (remember Janu? / Dr. Jai Maharaj) etc who spam other
groups trying to show that their brand of fundamentalism is 'true'
(the only true way).

Madhu appears to be another one on this group; (soc.culture.indian)
but in his defense at least he does not spam alt.atheism (well as far
as I have noticed).

You think I give that much stock to Christianity?

Fair enough a point. However this idea that you are "born" into a
caste isn't that much better.

The real issue should be the unfair caste system itself and the rules
that were cruelly set down to govern that system (past and present)
along with its current practice (despite claims to the contrary).

Which was my point. The Boers attributed "God" for having subdued the
Zulus and made them the permenant underclass. With or without the
distinction of skin colors, that is not unlike a Hindu caste system.

Yes, which is why Hinduism is as silly as Christianity in this
regards.

True.

Now, run along and find us the text of an equivalent Hindu theory.

-----

Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka

aka Yang's little poltregeist *****)

The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1546 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting

Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless

User: "Quizz"
Title: Re: Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!	14 Apr 2005 03:58:21 AM

On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:50:14 -0700, "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's
Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote:
-snip-

People often confuse the caste system with racial colour; that is a
common mistake in the West.

Fair enough a point. However this idea that you are "born" into a
caste isn't that much better.

True.
No doubt since you posted the above you will get some interesting
replies on this topic. LOL.
Revisionists, new theories etc attempt to show that caste as such is
not via birth (or only partially via birth).
If one is familiar with Hindu texts; examples of both sides can be
presented though the 'birth' appears to be far more prominent.
Also it seems that modern views are mainly intellectual; as opposed to
being practiced and/or accepted in the general population.
What I have found so far is that some claim there is no caste out of
one side of their mouth while from the other side they still maintain
the caste system through marriage restriction etc.
If you ask a simple question:
Q. Can a Sudra be a Brahmin? ....
A. Yes (according to his varna)
And then ask:
Q. Can a Sudra male marry a Brahmin female? ...
A. ............... ?
You will see what I mean :-)

Sorry about the misunderstanding, I jumped the gun and wrongly assumed
it was a race issue. :-(
I have read neo-Nazi literature where they go on about white this and
that as well as Hindu literature which go on about Hindu supremacy (as
interpreted by Fundamentalists) this and that ... I see both sides as
equally daft.
Unfortunately in the West caste = Hinduism which is not entirely true
and it is far more complex than that.
If you want to see caste at its ugliest have a read of Manu (the laws
of Manu) and also going from memory (I think) the Brahmanas and the
laws of the Aryas (in two volumes) etc.
The Mahabharata is a bit more mixed in view (arguments can be made
either way) and the Ramayana is also somewhat mixed (depending on
which edition one uses).
One word of caution, like some Christians, some Hindus remove
'offending' parts or try to re-interpet parts with sloppy logic.

aka Yang's little poltregeist *****)

The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1546 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting

Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless

User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"
Title: Re: Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!	14 Apr 2005 04:19:06 AM

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:28:21 +0930, Quizz <quizz@noemail.com> wrote:

On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:50:14 -0700, "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's
Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote:

-snip-

People often confuse the caste system with racial colour; that is a
common mistake in the West.

Fair enough a point. However this idea that you are "born" into a
caste isn't that much better.

Not unlike the Bible or any other holy texts eh?

Also it seems that modern views are mainly intellectual; as opposed to
being practiced and/or accepted in the general population.

What I have found so far is that some claim there is no caste out of
one side of their mouth while from the other side they still maintain
the caste system through marriage restriction etc.

If you ask a simple question:

Q. Can a Sudra be a Brahmin? ....
A. Yes (according to his varna)

And then ask:

Q. Can a Sudra male marry a Brahmin female? ...
A. ............... ?

You will see what I mean :-)

Sorry about the misunderstanding, I jumped the gun and wrongly assumed
it was a race issue. :-(

It's not neccessarily race but it certainly makes it easier to
discriminate. On the other hand, even if you have the same "race"
making up different castes, and intermarriage and mobility between
castes are not allowed, aren't they effectively different "races"
after a while?

I have read neo-Nazi literature where they go on about white this and
that as well as Hindu literature which go on about Hindu supremacy (as
interpreted by Fundamentalists) this and that ... I see both sides as
equally daft.

Unfortunately in the West caste = Hinduism which is not entirely true
and it is far more complex than that.

I accept that.

If you want to see caste at its ugliest have a read of Manu (the laws
of Manu) and also going from memory (I think) the Brahmanas and the
laws of the Aryas (in two volumes) etc.

The Mahabharata is a bit more mixed in view (arguments can be made
either way) and the Ramayana is also somewhat mixed (depending on
which edition one uses).

One word of caution, like some Christians, some Hindus remove
'offending' parts or try to re-interpet parts with sloppy logic.

True, but realistically you probably have a easier time interacting
with the salad bar Christians and Hindus than with the
Fundamentalists.
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka

User: "Quizz"
Title: Re: Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!	14 Apr 2005 05:35:14 AM

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 02:19:06 -0700, "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's
Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote:

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:28:21 +0930, Quizz <quizz@noemail.com> wrote:

If one is familiar with Hindu texts; examples of both sides can be
presented though the 'birth' appears to be far more prominent.

Not unlike the Bible or any other holy texts eh?

Exactly.
Not to sure where Buddhism and Jainism stand on this, going from
memory I think they were anti-caste. Some Hindus are also anti-caste.

Sorry about the misunderstanding, I jumped the gun and wrongly assumed
it was a race issue. :-(

That is an interesting (and valid observation) I was just reading this
in the Mahabharata:
I know, O Krishna, what the power of thy truth and of thy lineage is.
....
In our race, thou art Virtue's self, thou art Truth, and thou art the
embodiment of ascetic austerities. Thou art the great Brahma, and
everything rests on thee. What, therefore, thou hast said must be
true. ...
Mh. 5:90
Both race and lineage are mentioned, I am not sure (but I will look
into it) if caste is ever called a 'race' as such. It may have been
but until I examine it closer I prefer to not comment.

True, but realistically you probably have a easier time interacting
with the salad bar Christians and Hindus than with the
Fundamentalists.

ROTFL don't I know it. :-D
Q.

-----

Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka

aka Yang's little poltregeist *****)

The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1546 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting

Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless

User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"
Title: Re: Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!	14 Apr 2005 09:57:48 PM

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 20:05:14 +0930, Quizz <quizz@noemail.com> wrote:

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 02:19:06 -0700, "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's
Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote:

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:28:21 +0930, Quizz <quizz@noemail.com> wrote:

If one is familiar with Hindu texts; examples of both sides can be
presented though the 'birth' appears to be far more prominent.

Not unlike the Bible or any other holy texts eh?

Exactly.

Not to sure where Buddhism and Jainism stand on this, going from
memory I think they were anti-caste. Some Hindus are also anti-caste.

Sorry about the misunderstanding, I jumped the gun and wrongly assumed
it was a race issue. :-(

That is an interesting (and valid observation) I was just reading this
in the Mahabharata:

I don't think it taks that much for very closely related people to
become distinct "races"...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide
"The Belgians were awarded some German spoils after the First World
War, including Rwanda. They tended to simplify matters; transforming a
majority Tutsi elite into a solely Tutsi elite, with position in
society determined by ethnicity. Colonial idenity cards even used
ethinic affiliation as a classification despite the fact that Tutsis
and Hutus shared many cultural characteristics including geography,
language and traditional practices. Tutsis enjoyed privileged status
under Belgian rule and were able to secure better jobs and better
education than Hutus for the next two decades."

I know, O Krishna, what the power of thy truth and of thy lineage is.
...

In our race, thou art Virtue's self, thou art Truth, and thou art the
embodiment of ascetic austerities. Thou art the great Brahma, and
everything rests on thee. What, therefore, thou hast said must be
true. ...

Mh. 5:90

Both race and lineage are mentioned, I am not sure (but I will look
into it) if caste is ever called a 'race' as such. It may have been
but until I examine it closer I prefer to not comment.

True, but realistically you probably have a easier time interacting
with the salad bar Christians and Hindus than with the
Fundamentalists.

ROTFL don't I know it. :-D

Q.

-----

Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka

aka Yang's little poltregeist *****)

The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1546 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting

Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless

aka Yang's little poltregeist *****)
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1548 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!	14 Apr 2005 05:35:27 AM

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:28:21 +0930, Quizz <quizz@noemail.com> wrote:

Which was my point. The Boers attributed "God" for having subdued

the

Zulus and made them the permenant underclass. With or without the
distinction of skin colors, that is not unlike a Hindu caste

system.

Sorry about the misunderstanding, I jumped the gun and wrongly

assumed

it was a race issue. :-(

In places where there has been little change in status of castes, it
can be very similar to race + ethnicity/ tribe, not race alone. That
is, it can be similar to 2 jatis, Boers and Anglos, constituting the
upper class of the place and another 2 jatis, Zulus and Xhosas,
constituting up the lower class of the place.
In places where there has been a reordering of status, there can be
changes similar to a change from the scenario to the scenario below:
Xhosas and Anglos consituting the upper class, and
Zulus and Boers constituting the lower class.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!	14 Apr 2005 05:17:45 AM

Quizz wrote:

On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:50:14 -0700, "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's
Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote:

-snip-

People often confuse the caste system with racial colour; that is a
common mistake in the West.

Fair enough a point. However this idea that you are "born" into a
caste isn't that much better.

True.

No doubt since you posted the above you will get some interesting
replies on this topic. LOL.

The discussion gets muddled when speaking in English and referring to
both varna and jati as caste. For example, here, "caste" is used to
refer to varna and "caste by birth" is used to refer to jati.
"caste is not based on birth but on the individual qualities. It is
jatidharma (ones caste by birth)"
http://www.sulekha.com/weblogs/weblogdesc.asp?cid=22809
In discussions in an Indian language, it's much clearer since only jati
and varna would be used.
Casta (the Portugese word) is by birth, whether the casta of a human, a
grape or a dog. In the case of a grape, its casta is its variety (a
seedless green grape would be one casta whereas a seeded red grape
would be a different casta) and in the case of a dog, its casta would
be its breed. If casta is by birth, the Indian word for casta is jati.

Revisionists, new theories etc attempt to show that caste as such is
not via birth (or only partially via birth).

Madhu, your prototypical revisionist varnadharmi (anglicized to varnist
for the rest of this discussion), says caste IS by birth (since caste
is by birth, caste is jati). What is different about the so-called
classical school is that the former presumes that in addition to jati
being by birth, varna too is by birth.
Some so-called revisionist varnists are very close to that position;
they imply that varna is NORMALLY by birth, their "saving grace" being
that they don't say it is always by birth. For example, that is the
import of the "on the whole" in this statement:
"On the whole we see that the Lord functions on the basis that whatever
be the outward qualities of individuals, their inner quality is in
keeping with their hereditary vocations."
Some other (so-called) revisionist varnists say that people typically
choose their parents' varna because following in parents footsteps
comes more easily than breaking the mold and taking the effort to
develop a different varna.

If one is familiar with Hindu texts; examples of both sides can be
presented though the 'birth' appears to be far more prominent.

There's a 3rd side; a sizeable chunk of the Hindu population have not
even heard of varna (what you call caste); they have only heard of jati
(what we call caste). So, class systems they follow tend to be of the
form of viewing different jatis differently just like in the US,
Cherokees were viewed as more upscale than certain other tribes.

Also it seems that modern views are mainly intellectual; as opposed

being practiced and/or accepted in the general population.

What I have found so far is that some claim there is no caste out of
one side of their mouth while from the other side they still maintain
the caste system through marriage restriction etc.

If you ask a simple question:

Q. Can a Sudra be a Brahmin? ....

Perhaps* you mean: Can a Dalit be a Brahmana?

A. Yes (according to his varna)

You'd typically get a similar answer to a similar question posed to
Americans too (where the dividing lines between jatis tend to follow
race and religion):
Q. Can a black Christian's son be an intellectual?
A. Yes, according to his aptitude. (white Jew speaking)
* They would not say a Sudra can be a Brahmana since that would be an
oxymoron like saying a clod can be an intellectual.

And then ask:
Q. Can a Sudra male marry a Brahmin female? ...
A. ............... ?

This analogous question would draw a similar response from Americans:
Q. Can a black Christian get white Jews to give their daughter's hand
to his son?
A. Typically not.

You will see what I mean :-)

User: "Quizz"
Title: Re: Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!	14 Apr 2005 06:12:57 AM

On 14 Apr 2005 03:17:45 -0700, "ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

Quizz wrote:

On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:50:14 -0700, "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's
Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote:

-snip-

No doubt since you posted the above you will get some interesting
replies on this topic. LOL.

The discussion gets muddled when speaking in English and referring to
both varna and jati as caste. For example, here, "caste" is used to
refer to varna and "caste by birth" is used to refer to jati.

Yes.

"caste is not based on birth but on the individual qualities. It is
jatidharma (ones caste by birth)"
http://www.sulekha.com/weblogs/weblogdesc.asp?cid=22809

Thanks for the link I will check it out tomorrow.

In discussions in an Indian language, it's much clearer since only jati
and varna would be used.

True, it does clear a lot of the confusion up. I should have gone into
it a little bit more.

Casta (the Portugese word) is by birth, whether the casta of a human, a
grape or a dog. In the case of a grape, its casta is its variety (a
seedless green grape would be one casta whereas a seeded red grape
would be a different casta) and in the case of a dog, its casta would
be its breed. If casta is by birth, the Indian word for casta is jati.

That was one of the first things I checked, where did the word 'caste'
come from, I thought it was Spanish but later on found it to come from
Portuguese.

Revisionists, new theories etc attempt to show that caste as such is
not via birth (or only partially via birth).

Madhu, your prototypical revisionist varnadharmi (anglicized to varnist
for the rest of this discussion), says caste IS by birth (since caste
is by birth, caste is jati). What is different about the so-called
classical school is that the former presumes that in addition to jati
being by birth, varna too is by birth.

Some so-called revisionist varnists are very close to that position;
they imply that varna is NORMALLY by birth, their "saving grace" being
that they don't say it is always by birth. For example, that is the
import of the "on the whole" in this statement:
"On the whole we see that the Lord functions on the basis that whatever
be the outward qualities of individuals, their inner quality is in
keeping with their hereditary vocations."

Some other (so-called) revisionist varnists say that people typically
choose their parents' varna because following in parents footsteps
comes more easily than breaking the mold and taking the effort to
develop a different varna.

I know that is why I avoided going to far into it since it is far more
complex than it appears on the surface.

If one is familiar with Hindu texts; examples of both sides can be
presented though the 'birth' appears to be far more prominent.

I was not aware of this.

What I have found so far is that some claim there is no caste out of
one side of their mouth while from the other side they still maintain
the caste system through marriage restriction etc.

If you ask a simple question:

Q. Can a Sudra be a Brahmin? ....

Perhaps* you mean: Can a Dalit be a Brahmana?

A. Yes (according to his varna)

Okay.

* They would not say a Sudra can be a Brahmana since that would be an
oxymoron like saying a clod can be an intellectual.

And then ask:
Q. Can a Sudra male marry a Brahmin female? ...
A. ............... ?

This analogous question would draw a similar response from Americans:
Q. Can a black Christian get white Jews to give their daughter's hand
to his son?
A. Typically not.

I would differ on this.
I can't speak for the USA - I assume its the same as here.
Here it would be against the law if they wanted to get married but
were stopped; or ostracized by society.
I think more pressure (internal family pressure) would be exerted in
the West if a Muslim girl wanted to get married to a non-Muslim guy
regardless of his colour or race LOL.
However if a Muslim girl did marry a non-Muslim guy (and I know a few
families that have done this) the full weight of the court, legal
system and police are behind their protection.
Naturally you do get fanatics (in all countries) who go ridiculous
extremes. :-(
Sorry about the short reply (a bit busy with reading/editing).
Best wishes.
Q.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!	13 Apr 2005 02:46:32 AM

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

"ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com" <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

"ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com" <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

On 11 Apr 2005 11:57:41 -0700, "ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

Here's a clue, Hindu boy.

I don't see any Hindus. Do you?

I post out of alt.atheism. You think I give
that much stock to Christianity?

Did I say you did? I gave you a reference and asked you to buttress
your claims with a similar reference to your "Hindu theory".

So, you agree that the following theory is a crime against humanity?
(Permanent inheritance = for eternity)

Yes, which is why Hinduism is as silly as Christianity in this
regards.

Hinduism is silly because the Bible says something? Is the Bible shared
by Hindus and Christians?
.

User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"
Title: Re: Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!	13 Apr 2005 10:34:19 PM

On 13 Apr 2005 00:46:32 -0700, "ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

"ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com" <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

"ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com" <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

On 11 Apr 2005 11:57:41 -0700, "ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

Here's a clue, Hindu boy.

I don't see any Hindus. Do you?

I post out of alt.atheism. You think I give
that much stock to Christianity?

Did I say you did? I gave you a reference and asked you to buttress
your claims with a similar reference to your "Hindu theory".

So, you agree that the following theory is a crime against humanity?
(Permanent inheritance = for eternity)

Yes, which is why Hinduism is as silly as Christianity in this
regards.

Hinduism is silly because the Bible says something? Is the Bible shared
by Hindus and Christians?

You tell me. I point out the injustice inherent in Hindu caste
theology, you defemded on the ground that Christian theology has a
similiar caste-and-master theology. Why don't you explain to me why
the latter exonerates the former?
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka

User: ""
Title: Re: Hinduism: Celebrating 7,000 Years of Apartheid Segregation!	13 Apr 2005 11:43:51 PM