| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Deuteros" |
| Date: |
08 Feb 2007 07:11:37 PM |
| Object: |
Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
Most history textbooks participate in the lie that nuking Hiroshima and
Nakasaki saved hundreds of thousands of American and Japanese lives. The
reality was that Japan had already been trying to surrender long before we
dropped the bombs:
US Responses to Dropping the Bomb
"...the greatest thing in history."
- Harry S. Truman
President of the United States during the Atomic Bombing
"It always appeared to us that, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese
were already on the verge of collapse."
- General Henry H. "Hap" Arnold
Commanding General of the U.S. Army
Air Forces Under President Truman
"I had been conscious of depression and so I voiced to (Sec. Of War Stimson)
my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already
defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly
because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the
use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a
measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at this very
moment, seeking a way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face.' "
- General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Japan was at the moment seeking some way to surrender with minimum loss of
'face'. It wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."
- General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and
Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese
were already defeated and ready to surrender. My own feeling was that in being
the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the
barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was taught not to make war in that fashion, and
wars cannot be won by destroying woman and children."
- Admiral William D. Leahy
Former Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
"I am absolutely convinced that had we said they could keep the emperor,
together with the threat of an atomic bomb, they would have accepted, and we
would never have had to drop the bomb."
- John McCloy
"P.M. [Churchill} & I ate alone. Discussed Manhattan (it is a success).
Decided to tell Stalin about it. Stalin had told P.M. of telegram from Jap
Emperor asking for peace."
- President Harry S. Truman
Diary Entry, July 18, 1945
"Some of my conclusions may invoke scorn and even ridicule.
"For example, I offer my belief that the existence of the first atomic bombs
may have prolonged -- rather than shortened - World War II by influencing
Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson and President Harry S. Truman to ignore an
opportunity to negotiate a surrender that would have ended the killing in the
Pacific in May or June of 1945.
"And I have come to view the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings that August as an
American tragedy that should be viewed as a moral atrocity."
- Stewart L. Udall
US Congressman and
Author of "Myths of August"
"Certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1
November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not
been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion
had been planned or contemplated."
- U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey's 1946 Study
"Careful scholarly treatment of the records and manuscripts opened over the
past few years has greatly enhanced our understanding of why Truman
administration used atomic weapons against Japan. Experts continue to disagree
on some issues, but critical questions have been answered. The consensus among
scholars is the that the bomb was not needed to avoid an invasion of Japan. It
is clear that alternatives to the bomb existed and that Truman and his
advisers knew it.
- J. Samuel Walker
Chief Historian
U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission
.
|
|
| User: "Ron ONeal" |
|
| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
08 Feb 2007 09:30:53 PM |
|
|
"Deuteros" <deuteros@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:20070209011049.NNQI1287.aa05.charter.net@smtp.charter.net...
Most history textbooks participate in the lie that nuking Hiroshima and
Nakasaki saved hundreds of thousands of American and Japanese lives. The
reality was that Japan had already been trying to surrender long before we
dropped the bombs:
US Responses to Dropping the Bomb
"...the greatest thing in history."
- Harry S. Truman
President of the United States during the Atomic Bombing
"It always appeared to us that, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the
Japanese
were already on the verge of collapse."
- General Henry H. "Hap" Arnold
Commanding General of the U.S. Army
Air Forces Under President Truman
"I had been conscious of depression and so I voiced to (Sec. Of War
Stimson)
my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was
already
defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and
secondly
because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by
the
use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a
measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at this
very
moment, seeking a way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face.' "
- General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Japan was at the moment seeking some way to surrender with minimum loss
of
'face'. It wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."
- General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and
Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The
Japanese
were already defeated and ready to surrender. My own feeling was that in
being
the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the
barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was taught not to make war in that fashion,
and
wars cannot be won by destroying woman and children."
- Admiral William D. Leahy
Former Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
"I am absolutely convinced that had we said they could keep the emperor,
together with the threat of an atomic bomb, they would have accepted, and
we
would never have had to drop the bomb."
- John McCloy
"P.M. [Churchill} & I ate alone. Discussed Manhattan (it is a success).
Decided to tell Stalin about it. Stalin had told P.M. of telegram from Jap
Emperor asking for peace."
- President Harry S. Truman
Diary Entry, July 18, 1945
"Some of my conclusions may invoke scorn and even ridicule.
"For example, I offer my belief that the existence of the first atomic
bombs
may have prolonged -- rather than shortened - World War II by influencing
Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson and President Harry S. Truman to ignore
an
opportunity to negotiate a surrender that would have ended the killing in
the
Pacific in May or June of 1945.
"And I have come to view the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings that August
as an
American tragedy that should be viewed as a moral atrocity."
- Stewart L. Udall
US Congressman and
Author of "Myths of August"
"Certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1
November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had
not
been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no
invasion
had been planned or contemplated."
- U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey's 1946 Study
"Careful scholarly treatment of the records and manuscripts opened over
the
past few years has greatly enhanced our understanding of why Truman
administration used atomic weapons against Japan. Experts continue to
disagree
on some issues, but critical questions have been answered. The consensus
among
scholars is the that the bomb was not needed to avoid an invasion of
Japan. It
is clear that alternatives to the bomb existed and that Truman and his
advisers knew it.
- J. Samuel Walker
Chief Historian
U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission
The policy of unconditional surrender was persued and held fast by the
Allies. Any other surrender that Japan thought might come out of some kind
of time consuming negotiation would have prolonged the war. Lives would
have been the price of delay.
To say that the Japanese population was ready to give up is in error. They
were not. And as for the leaders of Japan, there was no consensus on
surrender. All of Japan's leaders saw the end coming, but many were ready
to fight to the bloody end for the Emperor.
Hirohito's pre-recorded radio message instructing Japan to surrender was
sought out with the intent to destroy it by a die-hard group of army
fanatics. This, even after the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings.
Also keep in mind that when instructed to do so by Hirohito, the entire
nation stopped fighting. No hostilities surfaced when the first American
aircraft landed on Japanese soil. "The Emperor has commanded us to quit,
and we do." The killing stopped instantly.
RO
.
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| User: "Deuteros" |
|
| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
10 Feb 2007 04:54:51 PM |
|
|
"Ron O'Neal" <roneal@wt.net> wrote in
news:45cbeab0$0$3160$ae4e5890@news.nationwide.net:
Hirohito's pre-recorded radio message instructing Japan to surrender was
sought out with the intent to destroy it by a die-hard group of army
fanatics.
Actually, no recording of the Hirohito's speech exists.
.
|
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| User: "Ron ONeal" |
|
| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
10 Feb 2007 05:30:23 PM |
|
|
"Deuteros" <deuteros@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:eqlifr$8e1$1@news.onet.pl...
"Ron O'Neal" <roneal@wt.net> wrote in
news:45cbeab0$0$3160$ae4e5890@news.nationwide.net:
Hirohito's pre-recorded radio message instructing Japan to surrender was
sought out with the intent to destroy it by a die-hard group of army
fanatics.
Actually, no recording of the Hirohito's speech exists.
That may be so today, but 50+ years ago, it did exist.
See: http://www.kyokipress.com/wings/surrender.html
Which states, in part:
"His Imperial Majesty Hirohito had recorded the message the previous day,
and he spoke to his people in the very formal language of the Imperial
Court, which many of his subjects could not understand:"
RO
.
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| User: "Defendario" |
|
| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
08 Feb 2007 10:06:20 PM |
|
|
Ron O'Neal wrote:
"Deuteros" <deuteros@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:20070209011049.NNQI1287.aa05.charter.net@smtp.charter.net...
Most history textbooks participate in the lie that nuking Hiroshima and
Nakasaki saved hundreds of thousands of American and Japanese lives. The
reality was that Japan had already been trying to surrender long before we
dropped the bombs:
US Responses to Dropping the Bomb
"...the greatest thing in history."
- Harry S. Truman
President of the United States during the Atomic Bombing
"It always appeared to us that, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the
Japanese
were already on the verge of collapse."
- General Henry H. "Hap" Arnold
Commanding General of the U.S. Army
Air Forces Under President Truman
"I had been conscious of depression and so I voiced to (Sec. Of War
Stimson)
my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was
already
defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and
secondly
because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by
the
use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a
measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at this
very
moment, seeking a way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face.' "
- General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Japan was at the moment seeking some way to surrender with minimum loss
of
'face'. It wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."
- General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and
Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The
Japanese
were already defeated and ready to surrender. My own feeling was that in
being
the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the
barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was taught not to make war in that fashion,
and
wars cannot be won by destroying woman and children."
- Admiral William D. Leahy
Former Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
"I am absolutely convinced that had we said they could keep the emperor,
together with the threat of an atomic bomb, they would have accepted, and
we
would never have had to drop the bomb."
- John McCloy
"P.M. [Churchill} & I ate alone. Discussed Manhattan (it is a success).
Decided to tell Stalin about it. Stalin had told P.M. of telegram from Jap
Emperor asking for peace."
- President Harry S. Truman
Diary Entry, July 18, 1945
"Some of my conclusions may invoke scorn and even ridicule.
"For example, I offer my belief that the existence of the first atomic
bombs
may have prolonged -- rather than shortened - World War II by influencing
Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson and President Harry S. Truman to ignore
an
opportunity to negotiate a surrender that would have ended the killing in
the
Pacific in May or June of 1945.
"And I have come to view the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings that August
as an
American tragedy that should be viewed as a moral atrocity."
- Stewart L. Udall
US Congressman and
Author of "Myths of August"
"Certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1
November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had
not
been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no
invasion
had been planned or contemplated."
- U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey's 1946 Study
"Careful scholarly treatment of the records and manuscripts opened over
the
past few years has greatly enhanced our understanding of why Truman
administration used atomic weapons against Japan. Experts continue to
disagree
on some issues, but critical questions have been answered. The consensus
among
scholars is the that the bomb was not needed to avoid an invasion of
Japan. It
is clear that alternatives to the bomb existed and that Truman and his
advisers knew it.
- J. Samuel Walker
Chief Historian
U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission
The policy of unconditional surrender was persued and held fast by the
Allies. Any other surrender that Japan thought might come out of some kind
of time consuming negotiation would have prolonged the war. Lives would
have been the price of delay.
We quietly acceded to the main Japanese condition -- that the Emperor
remain untouched.
To say that the Japanese population was ready to give up is in error. They
were not. And as for the leaders of Japan, there was no consensus on
surrender. All of Japan's leaders saw the end coming, but many were ready
to fight to the bloody end for the Emperor.
Hirohito's pre-recorded radio message instructing Japan to surrender was
sought out with the intent to destroy it by a die-hard group of army
fanatics. This, even after the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings.
Also keep in mind that when instructed to do so by Hirohito, the entire
nation stopped fighting. No hostilities surfaced when the first American
aircraft landed on Japanese soil. "The Emperor has commanded us to quit,
and we do." The killing stopped instantly.
This could have been accomplished with negotiation, but what the Hell.
Seems like we needed to do a live-fire test of our bomb designs, and
besides, it showed Uncle Joe what we were capable of.
;D
RO
.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
09 Feb 2007 06:51:46 PM |
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|
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:06:20 -0500 there was an Ancient Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
We quietly acceded to the main Japanese condition -- that the Emperor
remain untouched.
He was forced to renounce his claim of divine heritage, and lost all
of his power, but yeah.
The Japanese had also initially demanded that they be allowed to hold
onto their remaining possessions on the Asian mainland.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
.
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| User: "Defendario" |
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| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
09 Feb 2007 07:17:30 PM |
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|
Douglas Berry wrote:
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:06:20 -0500 there was an Ancient Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
We quietly acceded to the main Japanese condition -- that the Emperor
remain untouched.
He was forced to renounce his claim of divine heritage, and lost all
of his power, but yeah.
Nobody seriously believed that *****. As far as Hirohito's power, he
really had none all along.
He was a figurehead, who made no decisions until the last one.
The Japanese had also initially demanded that they be allowed to hold
onto their remaining possessions on the Asian mainland.
But that was clearly negotiable, so long as their forces were allowed to
depart in good order.
Frankly, none of this means dookie.
There was no legitimate reason to drop the A-bombs on a prostrate Japan.
Case closed.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
.
|
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| User: "AUK Registrar" |
|
| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
10 Feb 2007 07:31:06 PM |
|
|
In <534kkrF1q4gbiU6@mid.individual.net>, Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> wrote:
Douglas Berry wrote:
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:06:20 -0500 there was an Ancient Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
We quietly acceded to the main Japanese condition -- that the Emperor
remain untouched.
He was forced to renounce his claim of divine heritage, and lost all
of his power, but yeah.
Nobody seriously believed that *****.
You are an expert on Japanese societal and religious belief prior to, and
throughout, WWII?
As far as Hirohito's power, he
really had none all along.
He was a figurehead, who made no decisions until the last one.
The Japanese had also initially demanded that they be allowed to hold
onto their remaining possessions on the Asian mainland.
But that was clearly negotiable, so long as their forces were allowed to
depart in good order.
Frankly, none of this means dookie.
Yet you are engaging in discussion about it.
There was no legitimate reason to drop the A-bombs on a prostrate Japan.
Case closed.
What would YOU have done?
.
|
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| User: "Defendario" |
|
| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
10 Feb 2007 08:50:37 PM |
|
|
AUK Registrar wrote:
In <534kkrF1q4gbiU6@mid.individual.net>, Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> wrote:
Douglas Berry wrote:
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:06:20 -0500 there was an Ancient Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
We quietly acceded to the main Japanese condition -- that the Emperor
remain untouched.
He was forced to renounce his claim of divine heritage, and lost all
of his power, but yeah.
Nobody seriously believed that *****.
You are an expert on Japanese societal and religious belief prior to, and
throughout, WWII?
You're only an expert on UseNet kooks, kookmeister.
As far as Hirohito's power, he
really had none all along.
He was a figurehead, who made no decisions until the last one.
The Japanese had also initially demanded that they be allowed to hold
onto their remaining possessions on the Asian mainland.
But that was clearly negotiable, so long as their forces were allowed to
depart in good order.
Frankly, none of this means dookie.
Yet you are engaging in discussion about it.
Not that bit.
There was no legitimate reason to drop the A-bombs on a prostrate Japan.
Case closed.
What would YOU have done?
Waited them out.
.
|
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| User: "AUK Registrar" |
|
| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
11 Feb 2007 09:58:51 AM |
|
|
In <537efdF1ri7muU7@mid.individual.net>, Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> wrote:
AUK Registrar wrote:
In <534kkrF1q4gbiU6@mid.individual.net>, Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> wrote:
Douglas Berry wrote:
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:06:20 -0500 there was an Ancient Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
We quietly acceded to the main Japanese condition -- that the Emperor
remain untouched.
He was forced to renounce his claim of divine heritage, and lost all
of his power, but yeah.
Nobody seriously believed that *****.
You are an expert on Japanese societal and religious belief prior to, and
throughout, WWII?
You're only an expert on UseNet kooks, kookmeister.
Perhaps that's why I'm responding to one of your posts. I see a prime
candidate.
And I'm still waiting for an answer to "You are an expert on Japanese
societal and religious belief prior to, and throughout, WWII?"
I'm betting you'll dodge it again.
As far as Hirohito's power, he
really had none all along.
He was a figurehead, who made no decisions until the last one.
The Japanese had also initially demanded that they be allowed to hold
onto their remaining possessions on the Asian mainland.
But that was clearly negotiable, so long as their forces were allowed to
depart in good order.
Frankly, none of this means dookie.
Yet you are engaging in discussion about it.
Not that bit.
Not which bit?
There was no legitimate reason to drop the A-bombs on a prostrate Japan.
Case closed.
What would YOU have done?
Waited them out.
Waiting while civilians died of malnutrition and disease because their
government could no longer feed or care for them. Waiting while civilians
died building what fortifications they could manage against the land
invasion their military leaders had already told them would come.
Does "waiting" make your method of defeating the enemy more righteous than
attacking? Or do you feel better when it's the other sides actions, rather
than your own, that causes civilian deaths
.
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| User: "Defendario" |
|
| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
11 Feb 2007 07:37:01 PM |
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|
AUK Registrar wrote:
<NOTHING OF INTEREST>
*****, kook. I don't owe you a damned thing, including the time of day.
.
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| User: "AUK Registrar" |
|
| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
12 Feb 2007 06:13:05 PM |
|
|
In <539uhdF1pi24tU2@mid.individual.net>, Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> wrote:
AUK Registrar wrote:
In <imeus21jrpambkhvfklf1ubrbt7eadg5qt@4ax.com>, AUK Registrar <cjiii@mxyzptlk.net> wrote:
In <537efdF1ri7muU7@mid.individual.net>, Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> wrote:
AUK Registrar wrote:
In <534kkrF1q4gbiU6@mid.individual.net>, Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> wrote:
Douglas Berry wrote:
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:06:20 -0500 there was an Ancient Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
We quietly acceded to the main Japanese condition -- that the Emperor
remain untouched.
He was forced to renounce his claim of divine heritage, and lost all
of his power, but yeah.
Nobody seriously believed that *****.
You are an expert on Japanese societal and religious belief prior to, and
throughout, WWII?
You're only an expert on UseNet kooks, kookmeister.
Perhaps that's why I'm responding to one of your posts. I see a prime
candidate.
And I'm still waiting for an answer to "You are an expert on Japanese
societal and religious belief prior to, and throughout, WWII?"
I'm betting you'll dodge it again.
As far as Hirohito's power, he
really had none all along.
He was a figurehead, who made no decisions until the last one.
The Japanese had also initially demanded that they be allowed to hold
onto their remaining possessions on the Asian mainland.
But that was clearly negotiable, so long as their forces were allowed to
depart in good order.
Frankly, none of this means dookie.
Yet you are engaging in discussion about it.
Not that bit.
Not which bit?
There was no legitimate reason to drop the A-bombs on a prostrate Japan.
Case closed.
What would YOU have done?
Waited them out.
Waiting while civilians died of malnutrition and disease because their
government could no longer feed or care for them. Waiting while civilians
died building what fortifications they could manage against the land
invasion their military leaders had already told them would come.
Does "waiting" make your method of defeating the enemy more righteous than
attacking? Or do you feel better when it's the other sides actions, rather
than your own, that causes civilian deaths
*****, kook. I don't owe you a damned thing, including the time of day.
Hmmmmmmmmm... I don't believe I claimed that you 'owed' me anything. All I
did was ask a couple of questions, both of which you ran from.
I guess it's easier to call someone names and run away when you can't handle
the discussion.
Go ahead.
Run away.
.
|
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| User: "Defendario" |
|
| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
12 Feb 2007 06:33:38 PM |
|
|
AUK Registrar wrote:
In <539uhdF1pi24tU2@mid.individual.net>, Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
*****, kook. I don't owe you a damned thing, including the time of day.
Hmmmmmmmmm... I don't believe I claimed that you 'owed' me anything. All I
did was ask a couple of questions, both of which you ran from.
If you were right here, I'd have opened up a can of WhoopAss for you.
I run from no one.
I guess it's easier to call someone names and run away when you can't handle
the discussion.
Like I said, I owe you nothing, not even the time of day, kook.
Go ahead.
Run away.
GFY
.
|
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| User: "AUK Registrar" |
|
| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
13 Feb 2007 05:59:02 PM |
|
|
In <53cf6hF1s0tskU2@mid.individual.net>, Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> wrote:
AUK Registrar wrote:
In <539uhdF1pi24tU2@mid.individual.net>, Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
*****, kook. I don't owe you a damned thing, including the time of day.
Hmmmmmmmmm... I don't believe I claimed that you 'owed' me anything. All I
did was ask a couple of questions, both of which you ran from.
If you were right here, I'd have opened up a can of WhoopAss for you.
Sure you would. It's easier to bluster and threaten when you can't handle
the discussion.
I run from no one.
Oh? Then you're going to actually answer my questions?
I guess it's easier to call someone names and run away when you can't handle
the discussion.
Like I said, I owe you nothing, not even the time of day, kook.
Just like that.
Go ahead.
Run away.
GFY
He said, as he ran away, still ignoring the questions asked.
Well, at least he gets his exercise that way.
.
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| User: "Defendario" |
|
| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
14 Feb 2007 04:30:44 PM |
|
|
AUK Registrar wrote:
Oh? Then you're going to actually answer my questions?
Never
*PLONK*
.
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| User: "AUK Registrar" |
|
| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
14 Feb 2007 06:17:20 PM |
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In <53hgo0F1su7rnU3@mid.individual.net>, Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> wrote:
AUK Registrar wrote:
Oh? Then you're going to actually answer my questions?
Never
What a shame. Still running away.
*PLONK*
Final admission that he's only here for arguments and name-calling.
What a surprise..
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| User: "Tankfixer" |
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| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
11 Feb 2007 08:06:57 PM |
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In article <imeus21jrpambkhvfklf1ubrbt7eadg5qt@4ax.com>,
cjiii@mxyzptlk.net mumbled
In <537efdF1ri7muU7@mid.individual.net>, Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> wrote:
AUK Registrar wrote:
In <534kkrF1q4gbiU6@mid.individual.net>, Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> wrote:
Douglas Berry wrote:
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:06:20 -0500 there was an Ancient Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
We quietly acceded to the main Japanese condition -- that the Emperor
remain untouched.
He was forced to renounce his claim of divine heritage, and lost all
of his power, but yeah.
Nobody seriously believed that *****.
You are an expert on Japanese societal and religious belief prior to, and
throughout, WWII?
You're only an expert on UseNet kooks, kookmeister.
Perhaps that's why I'm responding to one of your posts. I see a prime
candidate.
And I'm still waiting for an answer to "You are an expert on Japanese
societal and religious belief prior to, and throughout, WWII?"
I'm betting you'll dodge it again.
Could he be daryl ?
Daryl owns a dodge..
--
Usenetsaurus n. an early pedantic internet mammal, who survived on a
diet of static text and
cascading "threads."
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
11 Feb 2007 12:04:08 PM |
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On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:50:37 -0500 there was an Ancient Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
Waited them out.
10 million dead from disease and famine.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
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| User: "Defendario" |
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| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
11 Feb 2007 07:37:37 PM |
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Douglas Berry wrote:
On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:50:37 -0500 there was an Ancient Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
Waited them out.
10 million dead from disease and famine.
I dispute that number. PPOR
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| User: "John D.Wentzky" |
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| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
09 Feb 2007 08:25:32 PM |
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In news:534kkrF1q4gbiU6@mid.individual.net,
Defendario <Defendario@netscape.com> typed:
Douglas Berry wrote:
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:06:20 -0500 there was an Ancient Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
We quietly acceded to the main Japanese condition -- that the
Emperor remain untouched.
He was forced to renounce his claim of divine heritage, and lost all
of his power, but yeah.
Nobody seriously believed that *****. As far as Hirohito's power, he
really had none all along.
He was a figurehead, who made no decisions until the last one.
The Japanese had also initially demanded that they be allowed to hold
onto their remaining possessions on the Asian mainland.
But that was clearly negotiable, so long as their forces were allowed
to depart in good order.
Frankly, none of this means dookie.
There was no legitimate reason to drop the A-bombs on a prostrate
Japan. Case closed.
So, would you accede to the US military abandoning their installation in
Okinawa?
The 50 year treaty expired quite a while ago.
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| User: "Defendario" |
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| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
09 Feb 2007 08:36:20 PM |
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John D.Wentzky wrote:
In news:534kkrF1q4gbiU6@mid.individual.net,
Defendario <Defendario@netscape.com> typed:
Douglas Berry wrote:
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:06:20 -0500 there was an Ancient Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
We quietly acceded to the main Japanese condition -- that the
Emperor remain untouched.
He was forced to renounce his claim of divine heritage, and lost all
of his power, but yeah.
Nobody seriously believed that *****. As far as Hirohito's power, he
really had none all along.
He was a figurehead, who made no decisions until the last one.
The Japanese had also initially demanded that they be allowed to hold
onto their remaining possessions on the Asian mainland.
But that was clearly negotiable, so long as their forces were allowed
to depart in good order.
Frankly, none of this means dookie.
There was no legitimate reason to drop the A-bombs on a prostrate
Japan. Case closed.
So, would you accede to the US military abandoning their installation in
Okinawa?
If that's what Japan wants, yes.
The 50 year treaty expired quite a while ago.
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| User: "John D.Wentzky" |
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| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
09 Feb 2007 08:42:10 PM |
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In news:534p8lF1q2k63U1@mid.individual.net,
Defendario <Defendario@netscape.com> typed:
John D.Wentzky wrote:
In news:534kkrF1q4gbiU6@mid.individual.net,
Defendario <Defendario@netscape.com> typed:
Douglas Berry wrote:
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:06:20 -0500 there was an Ancient Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
We quietly acceded to the main Japanese condition -- that the
Emperor remain untouched.
He was forced to renounce his claim of divine heritage, and lost
all of his power, but yeah.
Nobody seriously believed that *****. As far as Hirohito's power, he
really had none all along.
He was a figurehead, who made no decisions until the last one.
The Japanese had also initially demanded that they be allowed to
hold onto their remaining possessions on the Asian mainland.
But that was clearly negotiable, so long as their forces were
allowed to depart in good order.
Frankly, none of this means dookie.
There was no legitimate reason to drop the A-bombs on a prostrate
Japan. Case closed.
So, would you accede to the US military abandoning their
installation in Okinawa?
If that's what Japan wants, yes.
I'm all for it myself.
I do not think the USA has much right to stay where they aren't welcome.
The 50 year treaty with SK has expired, too, correct?
How about Saudi Arabia?
I wonder if Russia would sell oil to us?
They have more than the Saudis from a map I viewed.
Seems to me they need a path to the ocean via Afghanistan.
The 50 year treaty expired quite a while ago.
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| User: "Defendario" |
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| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
09 Feb 2007 09:00:49 PM |
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John D.Wentzky wrote:
In news:534p8lF1q2k63U1@mid.individual.net,
Defendario <Defendario@netscape.com> typed:
John D.Wentzky wrote:
In news:534kkrF1q4gbiU6@mid.individual.net,
Defendario <Defendario@netscape.com> typed:
Douglas Berry wrote:
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:06:20 -0500 there was an Ancient Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
We quietly acceded to the main Japanese condition -- that the
Emperor remain untouched.
He was forced to renounce his claim of divine heritage, and lost
all of his power, but yeah.
Nobody seriously believed that *****. As far as Hirohito's power, he
really had none all along.
He was a figurehead, who made no decisions until the last one.
The Japanese had also initially demanded that they be allowed to
hold onto their remaining possessions on the Asian mainland.
But that was clearly negotiable, so long as their forces were
allowed to depart in good order.
Frankly, none of this means dookie.
There was no legitimate reason to drop the A-bombs on a prostrate
Japan. Case closed.
So, would you accede to the US military abandoning their
installation in Okinawa?
If that's what Japan wants, yes.
I'm all for it myself.
OK
I do not think the USA has much right to stay where they aren't welcome.
The 50 year treaty with SK has expired, too, correct?
I don't know if the relationship with ROK is on a time basis.
How about Saudi Arabia?
United States quietly withdrew from KSA shortly after the invasion of
Iraq at the request of the House of Saud.
I wonder if Russia would sell oil to us?
If the US continues to act as a rogue nation we'll be lucky if *anyone*
sells oil to us. Or anything else for that matter.
They have more than the Saudis from a map I viewed.
The Federal Republic of Russia is the worlds top oil producing nation.
Seems to me they need a path to the ocean via Afghanistan.
Why? China and Europe are their two biggest clients.
The 50 year treaty expired quite a while ago.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
09 Feb 2007 08:43:54 PM |
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On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 20:17:30 -0500 there was an Ancient Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
Douglas Berry wrote:
He was forced to renounce his claim of divine heritage, and lost all
of his power, but yeah.
Nobody seriously believed that *****. As far as Hirohito's power, he
really had none all along.
Ah. You know nothing about Japan. Before 1945, the Emperor was never
seen, never heard, and lived in a sealed compound in Edo. Children
were taught that he was a direct descendant of the Sun Goddess.
He was a figurehead, who made no decisions until the last one.
That was a post-war claim made to calm Allied populations. Read Akira
Fujiwara (Sho-wa Tenno- no Ju--go Nen Senso-, 1991) and Peter Wetzler
(Hirohito and War, 1998) to see how Emperor Showa (to use his proper
post-death name) controlled things.
The Japanese had also initially demanded that they be allowed to hold
onto their remaining possessions on the Asian mainland.
But that was clearly negotiable, so long as their forces were allowed to
depart in good order.
No, the demanded to reain their holdings in Korea and Manchuria, along
with the armed forces necessary to defend them.
Frankly, none of this means dookie.
There was no legitimate reason to drop the A-bombs on a prostrate Japan.
Case closed.
So nice to see someone open to debate. We had the best reason ever:
they started a war.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
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| User: "Defendario" |
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| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
09 Feb 2007 09:06:28 PM |
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Douglas Berry wrote:
On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 20:17:30 -0500 there was an Ancient Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
Douglas Berry wrote:
He was forced to renounce his claim of divine heritage, and lost all
of his power, but yeah.
Nobody seriously believed that *****. As far as Hirohito's power, he
really had none all along.
Ah. You know nothing about Japan. Before 1945, the Emperor was never
seen, never heard, and lived in a sealed compound in Edo. Children
were taught that he was a direct descendant of the Sun Goddess.
And only children and fools believed it.
He was a figurehead, who made no decisions until the last one.
That was a post-war claim made to calm Allied populations. Read Akira
Fujiwara (Sho-wa Tenno- no Ju--go Nen Senso-, 1991) and Peter Wetzler
(Hirohito and War, 1998) to see how Emperor Showa (to use his proper
post-death name) controlled things.
I prefer John Toland and AJP Taylor
The Japanese had also initially demanded that they be allowed to hold
onto their remaining possessions on the Asian mainland.
But that was clearly negotiable, so long as their forces were allowed to
depart in good order.
No, the demanded to reain their holdings in Korea and Manchuria, along
with the armed forces necessary to defend them.
Which was a demand which they fairly well knew wouldn't hold up,
especially after the entry of Soviet Russia into the war against them.
This is what /really/ forced the Emperor's hand.
Frankly, none of this means dookie.
There was no legitimate reason to drop the A-bombs on a prostrate Japan.
Case closed.
So nice to see someone open to debate. We had the best reason ever:
they started a war.
Hogwash. Roosevelt knew he would force conflict with the embargo, which
is itself an act of war.
Then there is the whole concept of proportionality, which seems alien to
you. You might want to read up on it, as well as the concept of just war.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
10 Feb 2007 11:01:30 AM |
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On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 22:06:28 -0500 there was an Ancient Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
So nice to see someone open to debate. We had the best reason ever:
they started a war.
Hogwash. Roosevelt knew he would force conflict with the embargo, which
is itself an act of war.
Not selling to someone is an act of war? We didn't blockade Japanese
ports, we simply sdaid that because of Japan's actions in China (which
included firing on US patrol boats) we would no longer trade with
them.
The Empire of Japan started the conflict. Only an error of timing (and
lack of a qualified cryptographer at the Japanese embassy in
Washington) prevented them from delivering the declaration of war
before the bombs started falling on Pearl Harbor and the Philippines.
Then there is the whole concept of proportionality, which seems alien to
you. You might want to read up on it, as well as the concept of just war.
During World War II *all* combatants engaged in strategic bombing of
enemy population centers. My father survived the bombing of Coventry,
for example. It was considered a legitimate tactic of war. Explain
the difference please between a thousand bombers leveling a city and
one bomber doing the same thing?
The Japanese used strategic bombing where they could. We just happened
to be better at it.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
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| User: "bowman" |
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| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
10 Feb 2007 12:08:20 PM |
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Douglas Berry wrote:
Not selling to someone is an act of war? We didn't blockade Japanese
ports, we simply sdaid that because of Japan's actions in China (which
included firing on US patrol boats) we would no longer trade with
them.
The Yangtze Patrol was a long way from home, wasn't it?
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "Defendario" |
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| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
10 Feb 2007 07:00:32 PM |
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Douglas Berry wrote:
On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 22:06:28 -0500 there was an Ancient Defendario
<Defendario@netscape.com> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
So nice to see someone open to debate. We had the best reason ever:
they started a war.
Hogwash. Roosevelt knew he would force conflict with the embargo, which
is itself an act of war.
Not selling to someone is an act of war? We didn't blockade Japanese
ports, we simply sdaid that because of Japan's actions in China (which
included firing on US patrol boats) we would no longer trade with
them.
Refusing service of trade is a traditional /causus/ /belli/
The Empire of Japan started the conflict. Only an error of timing (and
lack of a qualified cryptographer at the Japanese embassy in
Washington) prevented them from delivering the declaration of war
before the bombs started falling on Pearl Harbor and the Philippines.
But there were many who knew it was coming, and chose to let it happen.
Then there is the whole concept of proportionality, which seems alien to
you. You might want to read up on it, as well as the concept of just war.
During World War II *all* combatants engaged in strategic bombing of
enemy population centers.
Did the Imperial Japanese Forces engage in strategic bombing of American
targets?
My father survived the bombing of Coventry
Another deal altogether.
It was considered a legitimate tactic of war. Explain
the difference please between a thousand bombers leveling a city and
one bomber doing the same thing?
Essentially there is none. These tactics are not moral, and should be
disallowed for not discriminating between civilian and combatant, as
well as being unnecessarily destructive of civilian property.
The Japanese used strategic bombing where they could. We just happened
to be better at it.
We were monstrous. LeMay should have hanged, not Yamashita.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
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| User: "Daryl Hunt" |
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| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
11 Feb 2007 04:01:14 AM |
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"Defendario" <Defendario@netscape.com> wrote in message
news:537811F1prrgiU1@mid.individual.net...
Did the Imperial Japanese Forces engage in strategic bombing of American
targets?
Yes. The Lighter than Air Balloons with Bombs. Some even made it as far as
Idaho. They dropped willynilly. So, yes, Japan tried to do strategic
bombing but we quite inept at it.
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| User: "Tankfixer" |
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| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
11 Feb 2007 08:05:26 PM |
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In article <45ceea21$1@news.i70west.com>,
mumbled
"Defendario" <Defendario@netscape.com> wrote in message
news:537811F1prrgiU1@mid.individual.net...
Did the Imperial Japanese Forces engage in strategic bombing of American
targets?
Yes. The Lighter than Air Balloons with Bombs. Some even made it as far as
Idaho. They dropped willynilly. So, yes, Japan tried to do strategic
bombing but we quite inept at it.
Further east than Idaho.
Some got as far east as the Great Lakes region.
--
Usenetsaurus n. an early pedantic internet mammal, who survived on a
diet of static text and
cascading "threads."
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: Hiroshima - what they don't teach you in school |
11 Feb 2007 06:47:46 AM |
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On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 03:01:14 -0700, "Daryl Hunt"
<dhunt@colwestnospam.com> wrote:
"Defendario" <Defendario@netscape.com> wrote in message
news:537811F1prrgiU1@mid.individual.net...
Did the Imperial Japanese Forces engage in strategic bombing of American
targets?
Yes. The Lighter than Air Balloons with Bombs. Some even made it as far as
Idaho. They dropped willynilly. So, yes, Japan tried to do strategic
bombing but we quite inept at it.
In fact, most Americans never even knew about it until years after the
war ended.
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It has removed 1305 spam emails to date.
Paying users do not have this message in their emails.
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