| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"J Young" |
| Date: |
14 Mar 2006 12:30:30 PM |
| Object: |
His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated |
Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a miracle.
Common sense goes with the miracle.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/13/D8GAR8A83.html
His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated
An official inquiry will begin this week into whether a French nun's
apparently inexplicable recovery from Parkinson's disease was a miracle that
can be attributed to Pope John Paul II, a distinction needed to put the late
pontiff on the road to sainthood, a cleric said Monday.
Monsignor Slawomir Oder, a Pole who is leading the case for John Paul's
sainthood, said he was asking the French bishop in whose diocese the alleged
miracle occurred to begin gathering testimony and documentation.
"Exactly two months after the death of the pope, from one minute to another,
the nun didn't show the symptoms of the illness anymore," Oder told The
Associated Press in one of his most extensive descriptions of the supposed
miracle.
"According to the criteria of human science, the doctor couldn't give an
explanation of what happened."
A miracle is required for beatification, the last formal step before a
person is considered for sainthood. A second miracle is needed for someone
to be declared a saint
--
" The truth shall set you free "
.
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| User: "No One" |
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| Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated |
19 Mar 2006 12:44:12 AM |
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Bonnie ***** <bonnieb@fifismaxi.pad> writes:
<piggybacking, as No One the Butt Plug is in my idiot bin forever>
In reality, "Bonnie *****" is: one of the most idiotic, pompous fools
on usenet - an idiot who quite literally knows nothing and has an axe
to grind.
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 06:58:49 GMT, No One <noone@nospam.pacbell.net>
wrote in message <m3r7508cnq.fsf@nospam.pacbell.net>
Bonnie ***** <bonnieb@fifismaxi.pad> writes:
In certain metals, the domains of atoms are permanently (or for a long
period of time) lined up so that the atoms create a field similar to
an electrical field. This field is called a magnetic field. Magnetic
fields have two ends called poles -- north and south. These poles will
attract their opposites and repel their like.
Sigh. You are in over your head.
Wait a sec -- I thought you KF'ed me.
Well, I never said, that, so you are lying once again, but what else
is new? It wouldn't surprise me, though if lots of people have kill
filed you.
Magnetic fields do not have poles
Except for when they do.
Go look up the concept of "planets" sometime.
Magnetic field don't have poles. I'd suggest you try any of a number
of physics texts on electricity and magnetism. Planets can generate a
magnetic field, but it is not the magnetic field that has poles, but
rather the planets, and the poles are merely the name we give to the
spot where the planet's magnetic field is perpendicular to the
surface. The interesting stuff - how the field is generated - occurs
underground. Here's a dumped down version for you:
<http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/09/0927_040927_field_flip.html>
But then, of course, you'd actually have to read it.
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated |
17 Mar 2006 07:41:18 AM |
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In <tdbl12hdsdab71i47t1231djko9ir6u1h9@4ax.com>, Bonnie *****
<bonnieb@fifismaxi.pad> wrote:
On 17 Mar 2006 04:00:49 -0800, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of "Hugh Betcha"
<gemond@canada.com>
Bonnie ***** wrote:
On 16 Mar 2006 17:13:30 -0800, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of "Hugh Betcha"
<gemond@canada.com>
Bonnie ***** wrote:
On 15 Mar 2006 22:17:53 -0800, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of "Hugh
Betcha" <gemond@canada.com>
You have to decide for yourself; but I think life is better
with miracles than without.
So you admit this is mere wishfulness...
Which is wishfulness... that science will explain everything, or
that miracles are wonderful things?
Prove that miracles happen.
Start with a cogent, meaningful definition of miracle.
A miracle? Well, let's see... It's is an event or occurrence that is
both above nature and above man. It hints of a power that is not
restricted by the laws of matter and energy, a power that can
'override' these laws.
You've just described hang gliding, gravity, airplanes, flying
squirrels, and UHF (non-cable) broadcast television. Praise-a-llujah,
flying squirrels are miracles. (They're such cute little critters,
despite them being vicious little rabies-infested bastards).
Well, yes, I see your point, that was a pretty lame definition.
So? Try again. I have absolutely nothing against do-overs. I'm a musician,
remember?
Now, one is unable to rule out real-world explanation (not chalking
things up to "miracles") unless one already has complete and perfect
knowledge of ALL natural phenomena.
Do you have that knowledge? Hell, no, you don't. *****, dude, you
graduated with honors in biology and you couldn't even explain why your
own daughter is left-handed, despite her two right-handed parents. So
don't even try.
God *is* a natural phenomena;
Your use of the g-o-d letter string bears no referential value and is
therefore meaningless.
Next time, please name the deity in question, by name, that your meaning
will be clear.
Oh, and FYI -- you just refuted your own claims that your deity works
outside of the natural world. Thank you for doing my work for me. Of
course, to clear up this latest vagrity, you could always define this
g-o-d letter string in a cogent, meaningful manner, which would put you
way ahead of all the christstains who have preceded you in the last 2000
years.
so, not having complete and perfect
knowledge of ALL natural phenomena; (face it - we can't even explain how
fridge magnets work)
The Scarlet Witch hexed them on the assembly line. I read that in a book
somewhere, and lots of people say it's true. <eye roll>
Scarlet witch??? That's blasphemy!!!
You know *damn well refrigerator magnets work because the IPU holds them
in place with her horn. All of them, everywhere, at the same time.
(After all, it's a miracle)
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
I just love this...
"For those of us who grew up in Louisiana,
'The Wizard of Oz' was like a documentary.
Dorothy left Kansas and simply went to Mardi Gras."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?W2EA439BC
Um... didn't foresee what exactly?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?B5CA129BC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
.
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| User: "Bonnie Bitch" |
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| Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated |
17 Mar 2006 07:50:25 AM |
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On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 07:41:18 -0600, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of "Mark K.
Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster>
In <tdbl12hdsdab71i47t1231djko9ir6u1h9@4ax.com>, Bonnie *****
<bonnieb@fifismaxi.pad> wrote:
On 17 Mar 2006 04:00:49 -0800, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of "Hugh Betcha"
<gemond@canada.com>
Bonnie ***** wrote:
On 16 Mar 2006 17:13:30 -0800, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of "Hugh Betcha"
<gemond@canada.com>
Bonnie ***** wrote:
On 15 Mar 2006 22:17:53 -0800, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of "Hugh
Betcha" <gemond@canada.com>
You have to decide for yourself; but I think life is better
with miracles than without.
So you admit this is mere wishfulness...
Which is wishfulness... that science will explain everything, or
that miracles are wonderful things?
Prove that miracles happen.
Start with a cogent, meaningful definition of miracle.
A miracle? Well, let's see... It's is an event or occurrence that is
both above nature and above man. It hints of a power that is not
restricted by the laws of matter and energy, a power that can
'override' these laws.
You've just described hang gliding, gravity, airplanes, flying
squirrels, and UHF (non-cable) broadcast television. Praise-a-llujah,
flying squirrels are miracles. (They're such cute little critters,
despite them being vicious little rabies-infested bastards).
Well, yes, I see your point, that was a pretty lame definition.
So? Try again. I have absolutely nothing against do-overs. I'm a musician,
remember?
Now, one is unable to rule out real-world explanation (not chalking
things up to "miracles") unless one already has complete and perfect
knowledge of ALL natural phenomena.
Do you have that knowledge? Hell, no, you don't. *****, dude, you
graduated with honors in biology and you couldn't even explain why your
own daughter is left-handed, despite her two right-handed parents. So
don't even try.
God *is* a natural phenomena;
Your use of the g-o-d letter string bears no referential value and is
therefore meaningless.
Next time, please name the deity in question, by name, that your meaning
will be clear.
Oh, and FYI -- you just refuted your own claims that your deity works
outside of the natural world. Thank you for doing my work for me. Of
course, to clear up this latest vagrity, you could always define this
g-o-d letter string in a cogent, meaningful manner, which would put you
way ahead of all the christstains who have preceded you in the last 2000
years.
so, not having complete and perfect
knowledge of ALL natural phenomena; (face it - we can't even explain how
fridge magnets work)
The Scarlet Witch hexed them on the assembly line. I read that in a book
somewhere, and lots of people say it's true. <eye roll>
Scarlet witch??? That's blasphemy!!!
No, your cry of blasphemy is blasphemy!
You know *damn well refrigerator magnets work because the IPU holds them
in place with her horn. All of them, everywhere, at the same time.
(After all, it's a miracle)
And who do you think created the IPU? It was the Scarlet Witch on her
day off. Her twins wanted a pet, so she zapped up the IPU.
.
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| User: "Paul Duca" |
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| Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated |
19 Mar 2006 06:17:27 PM |
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in article 1142393216.358108.187520@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, Hugh
Betcha at wrote on 3/14/06 10:26 PM:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
In <Z_GdnWUqc8fDhYrZnZ2dnUVZ8qKdnZ2d@brightview.com>, sanity's IittIe
helper <elvish@noshpam.net> wrote:
J Young wrote:
Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a
miracle. Common sense goes with the miracle.
You misspelled 'misdiagnosis'.
Doesn't even have to be that. A great many diseases have a remission rate.
Interestingly, "miracles" seem to occur at about the same frequency...
Parkinson's is a chronic degenerative neurological disease. There is no
'remission'. But when neurologic damage is suddenly reversed, we can
look at it one of two ways:
a) A perfectly normal, natural phenomena, while appearing to contradict
all known laws of biology, is actually something that will eventually
be fully explained by future scientific advancements. (fingers crossed
behind my back)
b) A miracle! (my hands in the air.)
You have to decide for yourself; but I think life is better with
miracles than without.
That's because only a miracle will result in a better life for
you...
Paul
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| User: "Boy Toy" |
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| Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated |
14 Mar 2006 02:46:45 PM |
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On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 19:25:32 +0000, sanity's IittIe helper
<elvish@noshpam.net> wrote in message
<Z_GdnWUqc8fDhYrZnZ2dnUVZ8qKdnZ2d@brightview.com>
J Young wrote:
Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a miracle.
Common sense goes with the miracle.
You misspelled 'misdiagnosis'.
J.Young must believe that doctors are infallible.
.
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| User: "george" |
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| Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated |
14 Mar 2006 01:39:15 PM |
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sanity's IittIe helper wrote:
J Young wrote:
Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a miracle.
Common sense goes with the miracle.
You misspelled 'misdiagnosis'.
Comes from their definition of wishful thinking
.
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| User: "William Wingstedt" |
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| Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated |
15 Mar 2006 09:41:09 PM |
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On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 13:30:30 -0500, "J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com>
wrote:
Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a miracle.
Common sense goes with the miracle.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/13/D8GAR8A83.html
His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated
An official inquiry will begin this week into whether a French nun's
apparently inexplicable recovery from Parkinson's disease was a miracle that
can be attributed to Pope John Paul II, a distinction needed to put the late
pontiff on the road to sainthood, a cleric said Monday.
Monsignor Slawomir Oder, a Pole who is leading the case for John Paul's
sainthood, said he was asking the French bishop in whose diocese the alleged
miracle occurred to begin gathering testimony and documentation.
"Exactly two months after the death of the pope, from one minute to another,
the nun didn't show the symptoms of the illness anymore," Oder told The
Associated Press in one of his most extensive descriptions of the supposed
miracle.
So how did the Pope "perform" the miracle *exactly* two months after
his death? Or was that the miracle?
"According to the criteria of human science, the doctor couldn't give an
explanation of what happened."
A miracle is required for beatification, the last formal step before a
person is considered for sainthood. A second miracle is needed for someone
to be declared a saint
--
" The truth shall set you free "
.
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| User: "No One" |
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| Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated |
15 Mar 2006 11:55:37 PM |
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(William Wingstedt) writes:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 13:30:30 -0500, "J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com>
wrote:
"Exactly two months after the death of the pope, from one minute to another,
the nun didn't show the symptoms of the illness anymore," Oder told The
Associated Press in one of his most extensive descriptions of the supposed
miracle.
So how did the Pope "perform" the miracle *exactly* two months after
his death? Or was that the miracle?
It is a popularity contest: every so often some random event occurs
that people can't explain, but if you have enough people sitting
around praying to some dead guy, eventually one of the praying
faithful is there when said random event occurs. So they attribute it
to some divine intervention on the part of the dead guy, who is
presumed to be so important in Heaven that he gets a private telephone
line to God's office.
Now they are fast tracking the process because in this "MTV Age",
attention spans have fallen considerably. :-)
.
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| User: "Scott" |
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| Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated |
17 Mar 2006 04:20:46 PM |
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"No One" <noone@nospam.pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:m364mf5430.fsf@nospam.pacbell.net...
William_Wingstedt@comcast.net (William Wingstedt) writes:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 13:30:30 -0500, "J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com>
wrote:
"Exactly two months after the death of the pope, from one minute to
another,
the nun didn't show the symptoms of the illness anymore," Oder told The
Associated Press in one of his most extensive descriptions of the
supposed
miracle.
So how did the Pope "perform" the miracle *exactly* two months after
his death? Or was that the miracle?
It is a popularity contest: every so often some random event occurs
that people can't explain, but if you have enough people sitting
around praying to some dead guy, eventually one of the praying
faithful is there when said random event occurs. So they attribute it
to some divine intervention on the part of the dead guy, who is
presumed to be so important in Heaven that he gets a private telephone
line to God's office.
And here I thought quantum physics could explain random events. It'd be
easier for you to say that according to quantum physics there is in fact the
random possibility that you could blink out of your present space and find
yourself on the Moon. What are the odds, though? What are the odds of the
said miracle?
It's a mystery. We Catholics love a Mystery.
.
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| User: "No One" |
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| Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated |
17 Mar 2006 08:07:59 PM |
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"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> writes:
"No One" <noone@nospam.pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:m364mf5430.fsf@nospam.pacbell.net...
It is a popularity contest: every so often some random event occurs
that people can't explain, but if you have enough people sitting
around praying to some dead guy, eventually one of the praying
faithful is there when said random event occurs. So they attribute it
to some divine intervention on the part of the dead guy, who is
presumed to be so important in Heaven that he gets a private telephone
line to God's office.
And here I thought quantum physics could explain random events. It'd be
easier for you to say that according to quantum physics there is in fact the
random possibility that you could blink out of your present space and find
yourself on the Moon. What are the odds, though? What are the odds of the
said miracle?
It's a mystery. We Catholics love a Mystery.
Well, you might actually *try* learning some quantum mechanics. :-)
No, you are not going to "blink out" and find yourself on the moon for
a simple reason - energy is conserved and you don't have the energy to
show up there. You could, however, walk though a wall to the next room
without damaging it, although the probability is extremely low. Read
up on alpha decay if you want to see what is going on and how to
compute the probability of this happening.
You also don't need quantum mechanics to get random behavior: statistical
mechanics was developed first.
Regarding biology, however, you might consider what some wise guy (no
doubt frustrated at some hitches in whatever experiment he was trying)
once said: "under controlled laboratory conditions, a test animal will
do whatever it wants."
.
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| User: "Scott" |
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| Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated |
18 Mar 2006 12:20:57 PM |
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"No One" <noone@nospam.pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:m3u09w8q4o.fsf@nospam.pacbell.net...
"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> writes:
"No One" <noone@nospam.pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:m364mf5430.fsf@nospam.pacbell.net...
It is a popularity contest: every so often some random event occurs
that people can't explain, but if you have enough people sitting
around praying to some dead guy, eventually one of the praying
faithful is there when said random event occurs. So they attribute it
to some divine intervention on the part of the dead guy, who is
presumed to be so important in Heaven that he gets a private telephone
line to God's office.
And here I thought quantum physics could explain random events. It'd be
easier for you to say that according to quantum physics there is in fact
the
random possibility that you could blink out of your present space and
find
yourself on the Moon. What are the odds, though? What are the odds of the
said miracle?
It's a mystery. We Catholics love a Mystery.
Well, you might actually *try* learning some quantum mechanics. :-)
No, you are not going to "blink out" and find yourself on the moon for
a simple reason - energy is conserved and you don't have the energy to
show up there. You could, however, walk though a wall to the next room
without damaging it, although the probability is extremely low. Read
up on alpha decay if you want to see what is going on and how to
compute the probability of this happening.
so your saying Dr. Michio Kaku was wrong when he said on the History Channel
that according to quantum physics you could be walking across the street and
end up on Mars but the odds it happening are greater than the age of the
universe?
You also don't need quantum mechanics to get random behavior: statistical
mechanics was developed first.
Regarding biology, however, you might consider what some wise guy (no
doubt frustrated at some hitches in whatever experiment he was trying)
once said: "under controlled laboratory conditions, a test animal will
do whatever it wants."
.
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| User: "No One" |
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| Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated |
18 Mar 2006 02:53:13 PM |
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"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> writes:
"No One" <noone@nospam.pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:m3u09w8q4o.fsf@nospam.pacbell.net...
"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> writes:
"No One" <noone@nospam.pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:m364mf5430.fsf@nospam.pacbell.net...
It is a popularity contest: every so often some random event occurs
that people can't explain, but if you have enough people sitting
around praying to some dead guy, eventually one of the praying
faithful is there when said random event occurs. So they attribute it
to some divine intervention on the part of the dead guy, who is
presumed to be so important in Heaven that he gets a private telephone
line to God's office.
And here I thought quantum physics could explain random events. It'd be
easier for you to say that according to quantum physics there is in fact
the
random possibility that you could blink out of your present space and
find
yourself on the Moon. What are the odds, though? What are the odds of the
said miracle?
It's a mystery. We Catholics love a Mystery.
Well, you might actually *try* learning some quantum mechanics. :-)
No, you are not going to "blink out" and find yourself on the moon for
a simple reason - energy is conserved and you don't have the energy to
show up there. You could, however, walk though a wall to the next room
without damaging it, although the probability is extremely low. Read
up on alpha decay if you want to see what is going on and how to
compute the probability of this happening.
so your saying Dr. Michio Kaku was wrong when he said on the History Channel
that according to quantum physics you could be walking across the street and
end up on Mars but the odds it happening are greater than the age of the
universe?
Yes. You could end up a very long distance way (which is probably
what he meant) but he didn't think it through if he actually said that
about Mars. There is a phenomena called "tunneling" in which an
object passes through some region where it doesn't have enough energy
to actually be. The catch is that when you actually find it on the
far side of such a barrier, you have to find it with the same energy
it had before, and Mars is in a different orbit (a higher
one). Tunneling can't get you there because a conservation law
(conservation of energy) prevents it.
If you had a planet like the earth on the opposite side of the sun in
the exact same orbit, tunneling could get you there (again with a
probability so low that it would be extremely unlikely for it to
occur in the lifetime of the universe) because you can arrange for
the total energy of the system to be the same before and after.
I.e., tunneling can let you appear on the far side of a mountain, but
it won't let you appear on the summit. This has been observed
experimentally in alpha-decay experiments. Alpha decay invovles a
nucleus decaying by ejecting an alpha particle, which is itself a
helium nucleus. The simple model for it has the alpha particle
"trapped" inside a nucleus by an energy barrier - the electrical
forces are repulsive and the nuclear forces are attractive, stronger,
but cover only a short range, so you have to get over a "hump" to get
the particle out, and the height of this hump (i.e.,the energy needed)
can be measured by experiments scattering helium nuclei off of other
nuclei. The problem was that the alpha particle came out with too
little energy. When you solve the equations (which are easy to do
in some simple cases), you find that the particle has a nonzero
probability of being in the region where it has insufficient energy
to be located, but that this probability drops exponentially with
distance. So you end up with a very tiny chance of it being found
outside. That happens every so often, though, which is what gives
you alpha decay.
The same principle applies to larger objects as well, but the
probabilities are reduced by many orders of magnitude, so you never
see such events occur in practice. The catch, though, is that after
the event occurs, energy is still conserved. You can do some
surprising things in principle, but not everything imaginable.
But look on the bright side. You could tunnel to Venus, but to
conserve energy, you'd have to arrive with enough energy that your
speed would result in you being vaporized. Given conditions on Venus,
that is probably a good thing - you won't have time to suffer given
the temperature at the surface and the acid rain. :-)
.
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| User: "Scott" |
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| Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated |
19 Mar 2006 04:51:10 PM |
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"No One" <noone@nospam.pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:m3veub7a1k.fsf@nospam.pacbell.net...
"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> writes:
"No One" <noone@nospam.pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:m3u09w8q4o.fsf@nospam.pacbell.net...
"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> writes:
"No One" <noone@nospam.pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:m364mf5430.fsf@nospam.pacbell.net...
It is a popularity contest: every so often some random event occurs
that people can't explain, but if you have enough people sitting
around praying to some dead guy, eventually one of the praying
faithful is there when said random event occurs. So they attribute
it
to some divine intervention on the part of the dead guy, who is
presumed to be so important in Heaven that he gets a private
telephone
line to God's office.
And here I thought quantum physics could explain random events. It'd
be
easier for you to say that according to quantum physics there is in
fact
the
random possibility that you could blink out of your present space and
find
yourself on the Moon. What are the odds, though? What are the odds of
the
said miracle?
It's a mystery. We Catholics love a Mystery.
Well, you might actually *try* learning some quantum mechanics. :-)
No, you are not going to "blink out" and find yourself on the moon for
a simple reason - energy is conserved and you don't have the energy to
show up there. You could, however, walk though a wall to the next room
without damaging it, although the probability is extremely low. Read
up on alpha decay if you want to see what is going on and how to
compute the probability of this happening.
so your saying Dr. Michio Kaku was wrong when he said on the History
Channel
that according to quantum physics you could be walking across the street
and
end up on Mars but the odds it happening are greater than the age of the
universe?
Yes. You could end up a very long distance way (which is probably
what he meant) but he didn't think it through if he actually said that
about Mars.
I think the show was mind experiment called "alien engineering".
There is a phenomena called "tunneling" in which an
object passes through some region where it doesn't have enough energy
to actually be. The catch is that when you actually find it on the
far side of such a barrier, you have to find it with the same energy
it had before, and Mars is in a different orbit (a higher
one). Tunneling can't get you there because a conservation law
(conservation of energy) prevents it.
He most certainly said with quantum physics you could end up on Mars.
If you had a planet like the earth on the opposite side of the sun in
the exact same orbit, tunneling could get you there (again with a
probability so low that it would be extremely unlikely for it to
occur in the lifetime of the universe) because you can arrange for
the total energy of the system to be the same before and after.
I.e., tunneling can let you appear on the far side of a mountain, but
it won't let you appear on the summit. This has been observed
experimentally in alpha-decay experiments. Alpha decay invovles a
nucleus decaying by ejecting an alpha particle, which is itself a
helium nucleus. The simple model for it has the alpha particle
"trapped" inside a nucleus by an energy barrier - the electrical
forces are repulsive and the nuclear forces are attractive, stronger,
but cover only a short range, so you have to get over a "hump" to get
the particle out, and the height of this hump (i.e.,the energy needed)
can be measured by experiments scattering helium nuclei off of other
nuclei. The problem was that the alpha particle came out with too
little energy. When you solve the equations (which are easy to do
in some simple cases), you find that the particle has a nonzero
probability of being in the region where it has insufficient energy
to be located, but that this probability drops exponentially with
distance. So you end up with a very tiny chance of it being found
outside. That happens every so often, though, which is what gives
you alpha decay.
The same principle applies to larger objects as well, but the
probabilities are reduced by many orders of magnitude, so you never
see such events occur in practice. The catch, though, is that after
the event occurs, energy is still conserved. You can do some
surprising things in principle, but not everything imaginable.
But look on the bright side. You could tunnel to Venus, but to
conserve energy, you'd have to arrive with enough energy that your
speed would result in you being vaporized. Given conditions on Venus,
that is probably a good thing - you won't have time to suffer given
the temperature at the surface and the acid rain. :-)
No one, man you have too much *time* on your hands ;)
Scott
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| User: "No One" |
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| Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated |
19 Mar 2006 11:40:55 PM |
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"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> writes:
"No One" <noone@nospam.pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:m3veub7a1k.fsf@nospam.pacbell.net...
"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> writes:
If you had a planet like the earth on the opposite side of the sun in
the exact same orbit, tunneling could get you there (again with a
probability so low that it would be extremely unlikely for it to
occur in the lifetime of the universe) because you can arrange for
the total energy of the system to be the same before and after.
I.e., tunneling can let you appear on the far side of a mountain, but
it won't let you appear on the summit. This has been observed
experimentally in alpha-decay experiments. Alpha decay invovles a
nucleus decaying by ejecting an alpha particle, which is itself a
helium nucleus. The simple model for it has the alpha particle
"trapped" inside a nucleus by an energy barrier - the electrical
forces are repulsive and the nuclear forces are attractive, stronger,
but cover only a short range, so you have to get over a "hump" to get
the particle out, and the height of this hump (i.e.,the energy needed)
can be measured by experiments scattering helium nuclei off of other
nuclei. The problem was that the alpha particle came out with too
little energy. When you solve the equations (which are easy to do
in some simple cases), you find that the particle has a nonzero
probability of being in the region where it has insufficient energy
to be located, but that this probability drops exponentially with
distance. So you end up with a very tiny chance of it being found
outside. That happens every so often, though, which is what gives
you alpha decay.
The same principle applies to larger objects as well, but the
probabilities are reduced by many orders of magnitude, so you never
see such events occur in practice. The catch, though, is that after
the event occurs, energy is still conserved. You can do some
surprising things in principle, but not everything imaginable.
But look on the bright side. You could tunnel to Venus, but to
conserve energy, you'd have to arrive with enough energy that your
speed would result in you being vaporized. Given conditions on Venus,
that is probably a good thing - you won't have time to suffer given
the temperature at the surface and the acid rain. :-)
No one, man you have too much *time* on your hands ;)
Nope - I just know this stuff. It's not like I have to look it up.
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| User: "William Wingstedt" |
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| Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated |
19 Mar 2006 08:06:30 AM |
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On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 16:20:46 -0600, "Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:
"No One" <noone@nospam.pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:m364mf5430.fsf@nospam.pacbell.net...
William_Wingstedt@comcast.net (William Wingstedt) writes:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 13:30:30 -0500, "J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com>
wrote:
"Exactly two months after the death of the pope, from one minute to
another,
the nun didn't show the symptoms of the illness anymore," Oder told The
Associated Press in one of his most extensive descriptions of the
supposed
miracle.
So how did the Pope "perform" the miracle *exactly* two months after
his death? Or was that the miracle?
It is a popularity contest: every so often some random event occurs
that people can't explain, but if you have enough people sitting
around praying to some dead guy, eventually one of the praying
faithful is there when said random event occurs. So they attribute it
to some divine intervention on the part of the dead guy, who is
presumed to be so important in Heaven that he gets a private telephone
line to God's office.
And here I thought quantum physics could explain random events. It'd be
easier for you to say that according to quantum physics there is in fact the
random possibility that you could blink out of your present space and find
yourself on the Moon. What are the odds, though? What are the odds of the
said miracle?
Apparently, the odds are pretty good when, as a saint, you are able to
manipulate them in your favor by "performing" miracles. Since becoming
a saint requires the performance of miracles, it means that catholics
have developed some facility at determining that a miracle has indeed
been performed. Therefore, it must not be a mystery, but is something
that is readily discernible. Must be in some secret book somewhere,
huh? What say you to dispensing with the incantations and the fancy
gold threads and revealing exactly what the catholic higher ups know
about miracles and their ability to manipulate the physical world as
if by magic? Oh wait, I get it now, you can't ask a saint how they
performed a miracle because, quite conveniently, just as everything
else that is interesting about religion, it all happens after you die.
It's a mystery. We Catholics love a Mystery.
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| User: "Scott" |
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| Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated |
19 Mar 2006 05:01:39 PM |
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"William Wingstedt" <William_Wingstedt@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:441d6281.213570067@Newsgroups.Comcast.net...
On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 16:20:46 -0600, "Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:
"No One" <noone@nospam.pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:m364mf5430.fsf@nospam.pacbell.net...
William_Wingstedt@comcast.net (William Wingstedt) writes:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 13:30:30 -0500, "J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com>
wrote:
"Exactly two months after the death of the pope, from one minute to
another,
the nun didn't show the symptoms of the illness anymore," Oder told
The
Associated Press in one of his most extensive descriptions of the
supposed
miracle.
So how did the Pope "perform" the miracle *exactly* two months after
his death? Or was that the miracle?
It is a popularity contest: every so often some random event occurs
that people can't explain, but if you have enough people sitting
around praying to some dead guy, eventually one of the praying
faithful is there when said random event occurs. So they attribute it
to some divine intervention on the part of the dead guy, who is
presumed to be so important in Heaven that he gets a private telephone
line to God's office.
And here I thought quantum physics could explain random events. It'd be
easier for you to say that according to quantum physics there is in fact
the
random possibility that you could blink out of your present space and find
yourself on the Moon. What are the odds, though? What are the odds of the
said miracle?
Apparently, the odds are pretty good when, as a saint, you are able to
manipulate them in your favor by "performing" miracles. Since becoming
a saint requires the performance of miracles, it means that catholics
have developed some facility at determining that a miracle has indeed
been performed. Therefore, it must not be a mystery, but is something
that is readily discernible. Must be in some secret book somewhere,
huh? What say you to dispensing with the incantations and the fancy
gold threads and revealing exactly what the catholic higher ups know
about miracles and their ability to manipulate the physical world as
if by magic? Oh wait, I get it now, you can't ask a saint how they
performed a miracle because, quite conveniently, just as everything
else that is interesting about religion, it all happens after you die.
think of it in terms of Gödelian contra-proof were the rational explanation
seems exhausted and will always seem incomplete.
It's a mystery. We Catholics love a Mystery.
.
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| User: "Paul Duca" |
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| Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated |
19 Mar 2006 06:42:30 PM |
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in article B_idnRXxg4hClorZnZ2dnUVZ_tGdnZ2d@giganews.com, J Young at
youngopinions@aol.com wrote on 3/14/06 1:30 PM:
Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a miracle.
Common sense goes with the miracle.
If J Yo ever gets some money or a woman...now THERE'S a miracle.
Paul
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