His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"J Young"
Date:	14 Mar 2006 12:30:30 PM
Object:	His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated

Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a miracle.
Common sense goes with the miracle.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/13/D8GAR8A83.html
His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated
An official inquiry will begin this week into whether a French nun's
apparently inexplicable recovery from Parkinson's disease was a miracle that
can be attributed to Pope John Paul II, a distinction needed to put the late
pontiff on the road to sainthood, a cleric said Monday.
Monsignor Slawomir Oder, a Pole who is leading the case for John Paul's
sainthood, said he was asking the French bishop in whose diocese the alleged
miracle occurred to begin gathering testimony and documentation.
"Exactly two months after the death of the pope, from one minute to another,
the nun didn't show the symptoms of the illness anymore," Oder told The
Associated Press in one of his most extensive descriptions of the supposed
miracle.
"According to the criteria of human science, the doctor couldn't give an
explanation of what happened."
A miracle is required for beatification, the last formal step before a
person is considered for sainthood. A second miracle is needed for someone
to be declared a saint
--
" The truth shall set you free "
.

User: "Torch"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	14 Mar 2006 12:48:02 PM

"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:B_idnRXxg4hClorZnZ2dnUVZ_tGdnZ2d@giganews.com...

Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a
miracle.
Common sense goes with the miracle.

I think his alleviating hunger in Africa is even more miraculous - by
spreading the ignorance of religion to the poor and uneducated in Africa and
spreading the word that its sinful to wear condoms he managed bring abut the
unnecessary deaths of millions through AIDs - well at least they aint hungry
anymore.
.

User: "Scott"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	17 Mar 2006 03:35:55 PM

"Torch" <Torch@torch.com> wrote in message
news:dv7351$2o4$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...

"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:B_idnRXxg4hClorZnZ2dnUVZ_tGdnZ2d@giganews.com...

Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a
miracle.
Common sense goes with the miracle.

I think his alleviating hunger in Africa is even more miraculous - by
spreading the ignorance of religion to the poor and uneducated in Africa
and spreading the word that its sinful to wear condoms he managed bring
abut the unnecessary deaths of millions through AIDs - well at least they
aint hungry anymore.

http://www.unfpa.org/profile/africa_overview.htm "Sub-Saharan Africa's
population has grown faster than any region over the past thirty years,
despite the millions of deaths from the AIDS pandemic. Between 1975 and
2005, the population more than doubled, rising from 335 to 751 million, and
is currently growing at a rate of 2.2 per cent a year. The United Nations
Population Division recently projected that sub-Saharan Africa's population
will reach about 1.1 billion by 2025. The region's 'youth bulge', the high
proportion of young people, signals that the population momentum will
probably continue for decades to come, even with AIDS reversing decades of
gains in life expectancy. Indeed, in the countries most highly affected by
HIV/AIDS, life expectancy continues to decline. "
http://www.govspot.com/ask/population.htm
"What is the U.S. population? On December 5, 2001, the population was
estimated to be 285,669,915"
Doing the math => 30 year population growth of sub-Saharan Africa (from
years 1975 to 2005): 751 million minus 335 million equals an increase of 416
million. Or an increase of 1.46 greater than that of the total United States
population of ~ 286 million in a span of only thirty years.
http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/aids_afr.html
At the 10th International AIDS Conference in Yokohama in August, Dr. Yuichi
Shiokawa put the sentiment in a different way. The African AIDS epidemic, he
said, could be brought under control only if Africans restrained their
sexual cravings. But Professor Nathan Clumeck of the Universite Libre in
Brussels is skeptical that Africans will ever do so. In a recent interview
with Le Monde, Clumeck claimed that "sex, love and disease do not mean the
same thing to Africans as they do to West Europeans because the notion of
guilt doesn't exist in the same way as it does in the Judeo-Christian
culture of the West." Such myths about the sexual excesses of Africans are
old ones. Early European travelers returned from Africa bringing tales of
black men allegedly performing carnal athletic feats with black women who
were themselves sexually insatiable. The affront to Victorian sensibilities
was cited alongside tribal conflicts and other "uncivilized" behavior to
justify the need for colonial social control.
Today, AIDS researchers have added new, undocumented twists to an old
repertoire: stories of Zairians who rub monkey's blood into cuts as an
aphrodisiac; claims that ulcerated genitals are becoming widespread; and
urban folklore about philandering East African truck drivers who get HIV
from prostitutes and then infect their wives.
The World Health Organization claims that 10 million HIV- positive Africans
are responsible for 300,000 cases of AIDS reported since 1981. On the face
of it this seems to be a catastrophe. Unlike in developed countries, where
over 90 percent of AIDS cases are homosexual males, intravenous drug users
and blood transfusion recipients, African AIDS is supposedly suffered by men
and women in equal numbers who contract it, presumably from heterosexual
intercourse. The African figures are often cited by the AIDS establishment
and safe sex activists in Europe and the United States to prove that
"everyone" is at risk.
BUT INCREASINGLY, discrepancies about the dynamics of HIV transmission,
skepticism about what really causes AIDS and mounting evidence of imprecise
medical diagnoses are stirring up a backlash among African scientists. They
argue that in Africa AIDS is not a contagious epidemic linked to sexual
habits but is the new name for old diseases that result from inadequate
health care, widespread malnutrition, endemic infections and unsanitary
water supplies. Dr. Richard Chirimuuta of Zimbabwe notes sarcastically that
in order to have one-third of the sexually active adults in some central and
east African countries infected with AIDS, "life in these countries must be
one endless orgy."
A growing number of African physicians including Dr. Mark Mattah (Midland
Center for Neurology in England), Dr. Sam Okware (former director of AIDS
research in Uganda) and Dr. P.A.K. Addy (director of clinical microbiology
in Kumasi, Ghana) say they think the panic over the heterosexual
transmission of AIDS may be a hoax. Dr. Felix Konotey-Ahulu, a Ghanaian
physician at London's Cromwell Hospital, toured Africa countries a few years
ago to assess the "epidemic." In a scathing report for Lancet, Dr.
Konotey-Ahulu asked, "If tens of thousands are dying from AIDS (and Africans
do not cremate their dead), where are the graves?"
Some Western scientists, including Dr. Luc Montagnier, the French virologist
who discovered HIV, claim that the practice of female circumcision
facilitates the spread of AIDS. How do they explain the fact that Somalia,
Ethiopia, Djibouti and Sudan, where female circumcision is the most
widespread, are among the countries with the lowest incidence of AIDS?
In fact, there is little evidence to support Western perceptions of African
sexual promiscuity. Widespread modesty codes for women, whose sexuality is
considered a gift to be used for procreation, make many African societies
seem chaste compared to the West. The Somalis, Afars, Oromos and Amharas of
northeast Africa think that public displays of sexual feelings demean a
woman's "gift," so that sexual contacts are restricted to ceremonial
touching or dancing. Initial sexual relationships are geared to the
beginnings of making a family. The notion of "boyfriends" and "girlfriends,"
virtually universal in the West, has no parallel in most traditional African
cultures.
No one has ever shown that people in Rwanda, Uganda, Zaire and Kenya -- the
so-called "AIDS belt" -- are more active sexually than people in Nigeria,
which has reported only 722 AIDS cases out of a population of 100 million,
or Cameroon, which reported 2,870 cases in 20 million. Scientists dismiss
the notion that males from any continent or region are more addicted to sex
than those from another because testosterone levels, the measure of sexual
vigor in men, never vary more than a tiny fraction of a percent anywhere in
the world.
IN 1991, researchers from the French group Medicins Sans Frontieres and the
Harvard School of Public Health conducted a survey of sexual behavior in the
Moyo district of northwest Uganda. Their findings revealed behavior that was
not very different from that of the West. On average, women had their first
sex at age 17, men at 19. Eighteen percent of women and 50 percent of men
reported premarital sex; 1.6 percent of the women and 4.1 percent of the men
had casual sex in the month preceding the study, while 2 percent of women
and 15 percent of men did so in the preceding year.
No national sex surveys have ever been carried out in Africa, yet AIDS
researchers blithely assume that heterosexual HIV transmission in Africa
parallels the dynamics for HIV among homosexual men in the West. There is no
scientific basis for this. Because female-to-male transmission of HIV is
extremely difficult, AIDS has never "exploded" into the heterosexual
populations of the U.S. and Europe, even though condom-less sex remains the
norm.
From 1985 to 1991, Dr. Nancy Padian and her associates studied 72
HIV-negative male partners of HIV-infected women. As reported in the Journal
of the American Medical Association (1991), they found only "one probable
instance" of female-to-male transmission. As for sexual transmission in
general, a definitive study in the British Medical Journal (1989) by the
European Study Group on AIDS concluded that the only sexual practice leading
to an increased risk of HIV infection for men or women was receptive anal
intercourse.
Even the definition of AIDS differs from one continent to another. In Europe
and America, AIDS-defining diseases include 29 unrelated maladies ranging
from pneumocystis carinii pneumonia and pulmonary tuberculosis to cervical
cancer. In addition, an HIV-positive test and a T-cell count below 200 are
necessary for a confirmed diagnosis.
But in Africa, the term "AIDS" is used to describe symptoms associated with
a number of previously known diseases. In the mid-1980s, those common
diseases were suddenly reclassified as "special opportunistic AIDS-related
infections" and Africans were warned to change their sexual practices
through abstinence, monogamy and condoms -- or they would die.
Hilarie Standing, a British medical anthropologist and AIDS researcher,
concedes that African "risk populations are assumed rather than revealed."
So why are AIDS cases in Africa nearly evenly divided between men and women?
The answer lies in the World Health Organization's definition of "AIDS" in
Africa which differs decisively from AIDS in the West. The WHO's
clinical-case definition for AIDS in Africa (adopted in 1985) is not based
on an HIV test or T-cell counts but on the combined symptoms of chronic
diarrhea, prolonged fever, 10 percent body weight loss in two months and a
persistent cough, none of which are new or uncommon on the African
continent.
HIV TESTS are notoriously unreliable in Africa. A 1994 study in the Journal
of Infectious Diseases concluded that HIV tests were useless in central
Africa, where the microbes responsible for tuberculosis, malaria and leprosy
were so prevalent that they registered over 70 percent false positive
results.
Furthermore, everything we know about viruses tells us that they are equal
opportunity microbes. They will attack men and women weakened by
malnutrition, the most effective cause of immune suppression. Venereal
diseases left untreated can also impair one's immunity, rendering any victim
susceptible to other infections. Africans are often assumed to die from
"AIDS-like" symptoms after their immune systems have been weakened by
malaria, tuberculosis, cholera or parasitic diseases.
By calling these deaths "AIDS" and claiming there is a new epidemic in
Africa, are health officials from the West, perhaps unwittingly, helping to
provide opportunities for development agencies, biomedical researchers and
pharmaceutical companies who clamor for more money and markets? Certainly,
promulgating the idea that AIDS is an epidemic caused by sexual promiscuity
will deepen Africa's dependency on Western aid for diagnostic tests,
high-tech sterilization equipment and medical personnel.
Another consequence of having millions of Africans threatened by AIDS may be
to make it politically acceptable to use the continent as a laboratory for
vaccine trials and the distribution of toxic, anti-HIV drugs like AZT.
Vaccine experiments in the United States have been curtailed due to
government regulations and fear of lawsuits from research-related injuries.
However, according to a 1994 Rockefeller Foundation report, "Accelerating
Preventive HIV Vaccines for the World," risky HIV vaccine trials would be
tolerated -- even welcomed -- in African countries.
Because of the extraordinary time lag between HIV infection and onset of
"AIDS" -- now set at six to 12 years -- AIDS activists warn that their
awareness campaign will require many years of active government intervention
and funding to overcome resistance to behavioral changes.
These new missionaries with their messages of safe sex seem especially
preoccupied with changing men's behavior. They want to turn African women
into "gatekeepers" who negotiate sexual relations and risk-reduction
strategies. At the Yokohama AIDS conference and the recent U.N. Conference
on Population and Development in Cairo, feminists insisted that AIDS would
be halted only when women were empowered to reduce inequalities by creating
"networks" that enhanced gender sensitivity and prevented sexual
victimization.
IT IS the political economy of underdevelopment, not sexual intercourse,
that is killing Africans. Poor harvests, rural poverty, migratory labor
systems, urban crowding, ecological degradation and the sadistic violence of
civil wars imperil and destroy far more African lives. When essential
services for water, power and transport break down, public sanitation
deteriorates and the risks of cholera and dysentery increase. African
poverty, not some extraordinary sexual behavior, is the best predictor of
AIDS-defining diseases.
AIDS skeptics should scrutinize ethnocentric stereotypes about African
sexuality and thoroughly reappraise the entire HIV=AIDS orthodoxy. The
purported link between HIV and AIDS was only hypothesized 10 years ago but
it has subsequently acquired a life of its own, especially among fund
raisers and sex educators who, like the theory, remain immune to criticism.
Of course, people everywhere should be encouraged to behave more
thoughtfully in their sexual lives. They should be provided with reliable
counseling about condom use, contraception, family planning and venereal
diseases. But whether in Cameroon or California, sex education must no
longer be distorted by terrifying, dubious misinformation that equates sex
with death.
Sacramento Bee, October 30, 1994, FORUM; Pg. FO1
HEADLINE: MYTHS OF AIDS AND SEX
BYLINE: Charles L. Geshekter
http://www.duesberg.com/subject/epvtafrica.html
AIDS IN AFRICA?
Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos & Valendar Turner
Rethinking AIDS Jan. 1995
According to the World Health Organization, some 2.5 million Sub-Saharan
Africans have AIDS-Africa is apparently in the grip of an AIDS pandemic. (In
the USA 300,000 people have been listed as AIDS cases.) AIDS in Africa is
portrayed as providing two important lessons for the West. The first is an
example of the potential devastation that AIDS can unleash; the second is
that by heterosexual spread, AIDS will eventually overtake the West.
However, there is no convincing evidence that millions of Africans are
infected with HIV, the putative cause of AIDS, or that African AIDS is
heterosexually spread.
The only evidence that some Africans are "infected" with a virus called HIV
is indirect, being based on the random testing of Africans' blood for the
presence of antibodies that react with a collection of so-called HIV
proteins. If the "HIV proteins" (present in the test kits) only reacted with
HIV antibodies there would be no problem. Unfortunately, this is not the
case. Antibodies produced in response to the presence of one foreign agent
may also react with another different foreign agent; and the more infectious
agents that a person has been exposed to, the greater is the likelihood that
such cross-reacting antibodies will be present. Ruling out cross-reactions
between "HIV proteins" and the plethora of other antibodies present in
individuals who are constantly exposed to microbial agents, can only be
achieved by determining how good a match there is between the antibody
reactions and the presence or absence of pure HIV itself. In other words, an
isolated viral preparation of known purity must be used as a "gold standard"
for the antibody reactions. This has never been done, either in Africa or in
the West. Thus in Africa, no one knows whether the antibody tests are
specific for HIV, that is, whether a positive test actually means HIV
infection. Many experts on African AIDS accepted this fact even at the
beginning of the AIDS era. Earlier this year, Myron Essex, a leading
American researcher and his colleagues from Harvard University, when
discussing their experimental data on HIV antibody testing in Africa, again
warned that the HIV antibody tests "may not be sufficient for HIV diagnosis
in AIDS-endemic areas of Central Africa where the prevalence of
mycobacterial diseases [leprosy and tuberculosis and others, whose
antibodies cross-react] is quite high". Thus, in Africa there is no
certainty that Africans are actually infected with a putative new agent,
HIV. AIDS experts also agree that acquired immune deficiency (the "AID" in
AIDS) is also long standing in Africa. Immune deficiency can be caused by
malnutrition, certain viral infections, and diseases such as malaria and
tuberculosis, all of which are known to exert a major depressant action on
the immune system.
Unlike the West, AIDS in Africa is diagnosed without any laboratory tests.
Patients are classified as AIDS cases without laboratory proof that they
have either immunodeficiency or HIV infection. All that is required is to
have various clinical conditions. But the conditions accepted as forming the
"S"(syndrome) of "AIDS" in Africa bear no relationship to AIDS in the West.
In the West, AIDS is diagnosed if a person has one or more of approximately
27 relatively rare diseases.
However in Africa, AIDS is diagnosed according to the World Health
Organization's 1986/87 Bangui" definitions that can best be described as a
collage of common non-specific symptoms, such as cough, fever, diarrhea,
tuberculosis (TB) and a cancer called Kaposi's sarcoma. Every one of these
diseases have been endemic in Africa for generations.
Kaposi's sarcoma, for example, was described in the Ebers papyrus dating
from 1600 BC. (In the West, Kaposi's sarcoma is restricted to gay men.) Of
the 661 million people in sub-Saharan Africa, 2-3 million have active TB
with an annual mortality of 790,000. Despite this and the fact that in
adults, "HIV infection" usually follows TB infection, TB has now become an
AIDS defining illness. In fact, 30-50% of African "AIDS" deaths are from TB.
In spite of all this, AIDS experts expect that we should accept that
something "new" is afoot in Africa and that it is caused by a new agent,
HIV. Suddenly, a new disease, caused by a new agent has appeared. The old
diseases and their deleterious effects on the immune system are no longer
operative.
Many AIDS experts also expect us to believe that unlike the story in the
West, in Africa AIDS is spread predominantly by heterosexual contact.
Indeed, since the number of heterosexual cases in the West is too small to
be statistically meaningful, the African "evidence" is used to forecast the
same predicament in the West. The claim of heterosexual spread in Africa is
based on absence of "evidence of homosexual transmission or intravenous
drugs" and the approximately equal numbers of males and females who have
AIDS as well as positive antibody tests. The latter certainly does not prove
that AIDS is heterosexually spread-influenza and appendicitis also have an
equal sex distribution.
Given the fact that positive HIV antibody tests may be due to the presence
of antibodies formed in response to malaria, tuberculosis, leprosy and many
parasitic diseases it is not surprising that an equal number of men and
women will be diagnosed as "AIDS" according to centuries-old symptoms and
have a positive antibody test.
In any case, the theory that AIDS in Africa is transmitted heterosexually
creates more problems for the HIV theory of AIDS than it solves. A disease
is said to be caused by a sexually transmitted infectious agent if one
infected partner, say the active partner (man) transmits the agent/disease
to the passive partner (woman), who in turn transmits the agent/disease to
another man. That is, heterosexually transmitted diseases are transmitted
bidirectionally, from men to women to men. In the West, the largest
(thousands of cases) and most judiciously conducted prospective
epidemiological studies have proven beyond all reasonable doubt that in both
men and women the only sexual act leading to the acquisition of "HIV
antibodies"(women) or "HIV antibodies" and eventual AIDS (gay men) is
passive (receptive) anal intercourse. In other words, in the West, "HIV
antibodies" and AIDS, like pregnancy, can only be acquired by the passive
partner. If, unlike pregnancy, the "HIV antibodies" and AIDS are not caused
by a non-infectious agent (sperm, semen) but by HIV, then HIV will be the
only unidirectionally sexually transmitted infectious agent. The active
partner will have to acquire HIV by other means. This is strange enough: in
the whole history of Medicine there has never been a sexually transmitted
agent/disease which is spread unidirectionally in the West and
bidirectionally (heterosexually) in Africa.
The only other alternative to this ludicrous scenario is to agree with
African physicians that positive HIV antibody tests in Africa do NOT mean
infection with HIV and that immunosuppression and certain symptoms and
diseases which constitute African AIDS have existed in Africa since time
immemorial. According to Professor P.A.K. Addy, Head of Clinical
Microbiology at the University of Science and Technology in Kumasi, Ghana:
"Europeans and Americans came to Africa with prejudiced minds, so they are
seeing what they wanted to see...I've known for a long time that AIDS is not
a crisis in Africa as the world is being made to understand. But in Africa
it is very difficult to stick your neck out and say certain things. The West
came out with those frightening statistics on AIDS in Africa because it was
unaware of certain social and clinical conditions. In most of Africa,
infectious diseases, particularly parasitic infections, are common. And
there are other conditions that can easily compromise or affect one's immune
system."
Dr. Konotey-Ahulu from the Cromwell Hospital in London expresses a similar
view: "Today, because of AIDS, it seems that Africans are not allowed to die
from these conditions [from which they used to die before the AIDS era] any
longer. If tens of thousands are dying from AIDS (and Africans do not
cremate their dead) where are the graves?" According to him, the uppermost
question in the minds of intelligent Africans and Europeans in that
continent is: "Why do the world's media appear to have conspired with some
scientists to become so gratuitously extravagant with the untruth?" *
Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos is a member of the Department of Medical Physics
and Valendar F. Turner, is in the Department of Emergency Medicine, at the
Royal Perth Hospital, Wellington Street, Perth 6000, Western Australia.
.

User: "Steve Knight"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	18 Mar 2006 04:11:38 PM

"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:B_idnRXxg4hClorZnZ2dnUVZ_tGdnZ2d@giganews.com...

Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a
miracle.
Common sense goes with the miracle.

Science has no answer for putting six socks in the dryer and only
getting back five.
Common sense clearly indicates a supernatural event has occurred.
I may become a catholic! It's fun stuff!
OH! MYGOD!
The knots in my door look like the eyes of JESUS!
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
www.sonic.net/~wooly
.

User: "Crusader"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	14 Mar 2006 03:44:33 PM

***** them.........
"Torch" <Torch@torch.com> wrote in message
news:dv7351$2o4$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...

"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:B_idnRXxg4hClorZnZ2dnUVZ_tGdnZ2d@giganews.com...

Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a
miracle.
Common sense goes with the miracle.

I think his alleviating hunger in Africa is even more miraculous - by
spreading the ignorance of religion to the poor and uneducated in Africa
and spreading the word that its sinful to wear condoms he managed bring
abut the unnecessary deaths of millions through AIDs - well at least they
aint hungry anymore.

User: "LAmazone"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	14 Mar 2006 05:26:20 PM

J Young wrote:

Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a miracle.
Common sense goes with the miracle.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/13/D8GAR8A83.html

His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated

An official inquiry will begin this week into whether a French nun's
apparently inexplicable recovery from Parkinson's disease was a miracle that
can be attributed to Pope John Paul II, a distinction needed to put the late
pontiff on the road to sainthood, a cleric said Monday.

Monsignor Slawomir Oder, a Pole who is leading the case for John Paul's
sainthood, said he was asking the French bishop in whose diocese the alleged
miracle occurred to begin gathering testimony and documentation.

"Exactly two months after the death of the pope, from one minute to another,
the nun didn't show the symptoms of the illness anymore," Oder told The
Associated Press in one of his most extensive descriptions of the supposed
miracle.

"According to the criteria of human science, the doctor couldn't give an
explanation of what happened."

A miracle is required for beatification, the last formal step before a
person is considered for sainthood. A second miracle is needed for someone
to be declared a saint

--
" The truth shall set you free "

Did they confirm that she in fact had parkinsons or just observed what might
have been hysterical symptoms?
I dont think that people who canonize fascists and genocidal criminals would
likely be able to work miracles....
--
Natalie Clifford Barney
Membre; L' Academie des Femmes
One of the Lesbian Immortals of the Left Bank
We never die....
"If too little of the love I invoke appears in this book, it is because I have
better spent it elsewhere. Here there remain only fragments."
.

User: "newsguy"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	14 Mar 2006 10:48:30 PM

J Young wrote:

Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a miracle.
Common sense goes with the miracle.

If he can cure Parkinson's why didn't he touch
himself and say heal, and then fall on the floor and
everyone raise their hand and say praise the Lord?

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/13/D8GAR8A83.html

His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated

An official inquiry will begin this week into whether a French nun's
apparently inexplicable recovery from Parkinson's disease was a miracle that
can be attributed to Pope John Paul II, a distinction needed to put the late
pontiff on the road to sainthood, a cleric said Monday.

Monsignor Slawomir Oder, a Pole who is leading the case for John Paul's
sainthood, said he was asking the French bishop in whose diocese the alleged
miracle occurred to begin gathering testimony and documentation.

"Exactly two months after the death of the pope, from one minute to another,
the nun didn't show the symptoms of the illness anymore," Oder told The
Associated Press in one of his most extensive descriptions of the supposed
miracle.

"According to the criteria of human science, the doctor couldn't give an
explanation of what happened."

A miracle is required for beatification, the last formal step before a
person is considered for sainthood. A second miracle is needed for someone
to be declared a saint

--
" The truth shall set you free "

User: "H Dickmann"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	15 Mar 2006 03:07:22 AM

"newsguy" <nuwsguy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142398110.927700.76390@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

J Young wrote:

Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a
miracle.
Common sense goes with the miracle.

If he can cure Parkinson's why didn't he touch
himself and say heal, and then fall on the floor and
everyone raise their hand and say praise the Lord?

That's not a Catholic Practice. What you describe are the couterfeith
Signs, Miracles and Wonders the Bible warns us about.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/13/D8GAR8A83.html

His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated

An official inquiry will begin this week into whether a French nun's
apparently inexplicable recovery from Parkinson's disease was a miracle
that
can be attributed to Pope John Paul II, a distinction needed to put the
late
pontiff on the road to sainthood, a cleric said Monday.

Monsignor Slawomir Oder, a Pole who is leading the case for John Paul's
sainthood, said he was asking the French bishop in whose diocese the
alleged
miracle occurred to begin gathering testimony and documentation.

"Exactly two months after the death of the pope, from one minute to
another,
the nun didn't show the symptoms of the illness anymore," Oder told The
Associated Press in one of his most extensive descriptions of the
supposed
miracle.

"According to the criteria of human science, the doctor couldn't give an
explanation of what happened."

A miracle is required for beatification, the last formal step before a
person is considered for sainthood. A second miracle is needed for
someone
to be declared a saint

--
" The truth shall set you free "

User: "george"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	18 Mar 2006 02:13:44 PM

newsguy wrote:

J Young wrote:

Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a miracle.
Common sense goes with the miracle.

If he can cure Parkinson's why didn't he touch
himself and say heal, and then fall on the floor and
everyone raise their hand and say praise the Lord?

When it comes to belief systems common sense is the first thing thrown
out the window.
It's just a theist scam
.

User: "Scott"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	19 Mar 2006 04:59:28 PM

"george" <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote in message
news:1142712823.974136.294150@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...

newsguy wrote:

J Young wrote:

Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a
miracle.
Common sense goes with the miracle.

If he can cure Parkinson's why didn't he touch
himself and say heal, and then fall on the floor and
everyone raise their hand and say praise the Lord?

When it comes to belief systems common sense is the first thing thrown
out the window.
It's just a theist scam

Common sense tells me that if I were a materialist I'd have to reject all
notions of *real* moral progress. But I've been damn hard pressed to find
any materialists who actually believe that in practice.
.

User: "sanitys IittIe helper"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	14 Mar 2006 01:25:32 PM

J Young wrote:

Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a miracle.
Common sense goes with the miracle.

You misspelled 'misdiagnosis'.
--
David Silverman
aa #2208
Atheist for life.
Religion is a social contract between those who would rule us and those
who won't deal with their own *****.
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	14 Mar 2006 08:05:51 PM

In <Z_GdnWUqc8fDhYrZnZ2dnUVZ8qKdnZ2d@brightview.com>, sanity's IittIe
helper <elvish@noshpam.net> wrote:

J Young wrote:

Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a
miracle. Common sense goes with the miracle.

You misspelled 'misdiagnosis'.

Doesn't even have to be that. A great many diseases have a remission rate.
Interestingly, "miracles" seem to occur at about the same frequency...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
I just love this...
"For those of us who grew up in Louisiana,
'The Wizard of Oz' was like a documentary.
Dorothy left Kansas and simply went to Mardi Gras."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?W2EA439BC
Um... didn't foresee what exactly?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?B5CA129BC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
.

User: "Hugh Betcha"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	14 Mar 2006 09:26:56 PM

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

In <Z_GdnWUqc8fDhYrZnZ2dnUVZ8qKdnZ2d@brightview.com>, sanity's IittIe
helper <elvish@noshpam.net> wrote:

J Young wrote:

Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a
miracle. Common sense goes with the miracle.

You misspelled 'misdiagnosis'.

Doesn't even have to be that. A great many diseases have a remission rate.
Interestingly, "miracles" seem to occur at about the same frequency...

Parkinson's is a chronic degenerative neurological disease. There is no
'remission'. But when neurologic damage is suddenly reversed, we can
look at it one of two ways:
a) A perfectly normal, natural phenomena, while appearing to contradict
all known laws of biology, is actually something that will eventually
be fully explained by future scientific advancements. (fingers crossed
behind my back)
b) A miracle! (my hands in the air.)
You have to decide for yourself; but I think life is better with
miracles than without.
H.
--
"With most people unbelief in one thing is founded upon blind belief in
another."
-Georg Lichtenberg
.

User: "No One"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	14 Mar 2006 09:44:21 PM

"Hugh Betcha" <gemond@canada.com> writes:

You didnt' add (c) - an incorrect diagnosis (some rare disorder with
symptoms that resembled Parkinson's disease so closely as to fool the
doctors). Or (d) the patient somehow learned to use another part of
the brain or some healthy cells managed to trigger some mechanism that
allows them to produce a lot of dopamine to compensate for cell loss.

You have to decide for yourself; but I think life is better with
miracles than without.

Life would be more convenient with Startrek transporters so I could
travel instantly to any place on earth. Don't expect to see one in
_The Sharper Image_ as gift for the guy who has everything. :-)
.

User: "Hugh Betcha"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	15 Mar 2006 03:02:04 AM

No One wrote:

"Hugh Betcha" <gemond@canada.com> writes:

Those are covered in a). Any excuse- er... I mean 'theory' is covered
under a). No need to complicate things. Point is, both a) and b) both
require faith in something we're sure is true, although we can't prove
it right now.

You have to decide for yourself; but I think life is better with
miracles than without.

Life would be more convenient with Startrek transporters so I could
travel instantly to any place on earth. Don't expect to see one in
_The Sharper Image_ as gift for the guy who has everything. :-)

Do you have faith that science will one day perfect instantaneous
teleportation?
H
.

User: "Bonnie Bitch"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	15 Mar 2006 05:05:43 AM

On 15 Mar 2006 01:02:04 -0800, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of "Hugh
Betcha" <gemond@canada.com>

That's the most succinct description of Catholicism I have seen in a
long time, even with the one slight error, which I corrected for you.
Thanks, Hugh!
.

User: "Hugh Betcha"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	15 Mar 2006 10:02:40 AM

Bonnie ***** wrote:

That's the most succinct description of Catholicism I have seen in a
long time, even with the one slight error, which I corrected for you.
Thanks, Hugh!

Well, uh... I WAS trying to draw a comparison between two sorts of
'blind faith'... you noticed the word 'both' didn't you? I even typed
it an extra time (oops)
You say my claim that "God did it." is a foolish assertation; but when
a scientist says: "...uh... well... er... the REST of the universe?
It's- ummm... uh- 'Dark matter' yeah, that's it! 'Dark matter.'" It's
pretty much the same thing; although mine is said with surety, and the
other with fingers crossed behind your back. Look at Christianity
compared to... say, 'evolution' both systems require the interpretation
of facts according to a pre-drawn conclusion. Either way, you see,
we're stumbling about in the dark, tripping over things we were sure
didn't exist. What's to be done? Well, DUH, both systems can be
complimentary.
As Einstein said: "Science without religion is lame, religion without
science is blind.", or as Pope John Paul II (The Great) so eloquently
put it: "Science can purify religion from error and superstition;
religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes."
But, I suppose there will always be Christian fundies who insist that
the world is 6000 years old and humans and dinosaurs co-existed a la
'The Flintstones' and there will always be 'scientists' who shape the
facts to fit the theory a la 'global warming'.
H
--
"One Galileo in two thousand years is enough."
-Pius XII
.

User: "sanitys IittIe helper"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	15 Mar 2006 10:27:05 AM

Hugh Betcha wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

In <Z_GdnWUqc8fDhYrZnZ2dnUVZ8qKdnZ2d@brightview.com>, sanity's IittIe
helper <elvish@noshpam.net> wrote:

J Young wrote:

Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a
miracle. Common sense goes with the miracle.

You misspelled 'misdiagnosis'.

Doesn't even have to be that. A great many diseases have a remission rate.
Interestingly, "miracles" seem to occur at about the same frequency...

Parkinson's is a chronic degenerative neurological disease. There is no
'remission'. But when neurologic damage is suddenly reversed, we can
look at it one of two ways:

a) A perfectly normal, natural phenomena, while appearing to contradict
all known laws of biology, is actually something that will eventually
be fully explained by future scientific advancements. (fingers crossed
behind my back)
b) A miracle! (my hands in the air.)

You have to decide for yourself; but I think life is better with
miracles than without.

You missed c) misdiagnosis and d) fraud.

H.
--
"With most people unbelief in one thing is founded upon blind belief in
another."
-Georg Lichtenberg

What a pillock.
--
David Silverman
aa #2208
Atheist for life.
Religion is a social contract between those who would rule us and those
who won't deal with their own *****.
.

User: "Hugh Betcha"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	16 Mar 2006 12:06:56 AM

sanity's IittIe helper wrote:

Hugh Betcha wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

In <Z_GdnWUqc8fDhYrZnZ2dnUVZ8qKdnZ2d@brightview.com>, sanity's IittIe
helper <elvish@noshpam.net> wrote:

J Young wrote:

Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a
miracle. Common sense goes with the miracle.

You misspelled 'misdiagnosis'.

Doesn't even have to be that. A great many diseases have a remission rate.
Interestingly, "miracles" seem to occur at about the same frequency...

Parkinson's is a chronic degenerative neurological disease. There is no
'remission'. But when neurologic damage is suddenly reversed, we can
look at it one of two ways:

a) A perfectly normal, natural phenomena, while appearing to contradict
all known laws of biology, is actually something that will eventually
be fully explained by future scientific advancements. (fingers crossed
behind my back)
b) A miracle! (my hands in the air.)

You have to decide for yourself; but I think life is better with
miracles than without.

You missed c) misdiagnosis and d) fraud.

a) is ANYTHING but God, and b) is God. What is so darn hard to
understand?

--
"With most people unbelief in one thing is founded upon blind belief in
another."
-Georg Lichtenberg

What a pillock.

I think Lichtenberg was a Lutheran, actually.
H.
--
"When men live as if there were no God, it becomes expedient for them
that there should be none; and then they endeavor to persuade
themselves so."
-John Tillotson
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	15 Mar 2006 06:48:53 PM

In <1142393216.358108.187520@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Hugh Betcha"
<gemond@canada.com> wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

In <Z_GdnWUqc8fDhYrZnZ2dnUVZ8qKdnZ2d@brightview.com>, sanity's IittIe
helper <elvish@noshpam.net> wrote:

J Young wrote:

Science has no answer for what happened; the RCC attributes it to a
miracle. Common sense goes with the miracle.

You misspelled 'misdiagnosis'.

Doesn't even have to be that. A great many diseases have a remission
rate. Interestingly, "miracles" seem to occur at about the same
frequency...

Parkinson's is a chronic degenerative neurological disease. There is no
'remission'. But when neurologic damage is suddenly reversed, we can look
at it one of two ways:

a) A perfectly normal, natural phenomena, while appearing to contradict
all known laws of biology, is actually something that will eventually be
fully explained by future scientific advancements. (fingers crossed behind
my back)
b) A miracle! (my hands in the air.)

You have to decide for yourself; but I think life is better with miracles
than without.

So you admit this is mere wishfulness...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
I just love this...
"For those of us who grew up in Louisiana,
'The Wizard of Oz' was like a documentary.
Dorothy left Kansas and simply went to Mardi Gras."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?W2EA439BC
Um... didn't foresee what exactly?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?B5CA129BC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
.

User: "Hugh Betcha"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	16 Mar 2006 12:17:53 AM

You have to decide for yourself; but I think life is better with miracles
than without.

So you admit this is mere wishfulness...

Which is wishfulness... that science will explain everything, or that
miracles are wonderful things?
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	16 Mar 2006 08:36:07 AM

In <1142489873.638010.182750@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>, "Hugh Betcha"
<gemond@canada.com> wrote:

You have to decide for yourself; but I think life is better with
miracles than without.

So you admit this is mere wishfulness...

Which is wishfulness... that science will explain everything, or that
miracles are wonderful things?

Who said science will "explain everything?"
And that's rather funny given that labeling something a "miracle" explains
nothing. It's just another way of saying, "I have no idea how that
happened."
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
I just love this...
"For those of us who grew up in Louisiana,
'The Wizard of Oz' was like a documentary.
Dorothy left Kansas and simply went to Mardi Gras."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?W2EA439BC
Um... didn't foresee what exactly?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?B5CA129BC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
.

User: "Hugh Betcha"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	16 Mar 2006 07:17:05 PM

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

In <1142489873.638010.182750@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>, "Hugh Betcha"
<gemond@canada.com> wrote:

You have to decide for yourself; but I think life is better with
miracles than without.

So you admit this is mere wishfulness...

Which is wishfulness... that science will explain everything, or that
miracles are wonderful things?

Who said science will "explain everything?"

Perhaps not exactly, but by saying decisively that there are no
miracles; you are saying that everything is *explainable*

And that's rather funny given that labeling something a "miracle" explains
nothing. It's just another way of saying, "I have no idea how that
happened."

Well, yes, that was sort of my point.
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	16 Mar 2006 10:30:12 PM

In <1142558225.255134.191830@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>, "Hugh Betcha"
<gemond@canada.com> wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

In <1142489873.638010.182750@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>, "Hugh
Betcha" <gemond@canada.com> wrote:

You have to decide for yourself; but I think life is better with
miracles than without.

So you admit this is mere wishfulness...

Which is wishfulness... that science will explain everything, or that
miracles are wonderful things?

Who said science will "explain everything?"

Perhaps not exactly, but by saying decisively that there are no miracles;
you are saying that everything is *explainable*

I'm not saying "there are no miracles" actually. I'm saying "the concept
is stupid." All "it's a miracle" is saying is "I don't know how that
happened."

And that's rather funny given that labeling something a "miracle"
explains nothing. It's just another way of saying, "I have no idea how
that happened."

Well, yes, that was sort of my point.

So you find life "better" because of ignorance? I don't get it. If you
don't know how something happened, why not just say "I don't know how that
happened"? What's this getting all "oooo, spooky" over not knowing
something?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
I just love this...
"For those of us who grew up in Louisiana,
'The Wizard of Oz' was like a documentary.
Dorothy left Kansas and simply went to Mardi Gras."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?W2EA439BC
Um... didn't foresee what exactly?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?B5CA129BC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
.

User: "Dennis Kemmerer"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	16 Mar 2006 10:35:17 PM

"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:PZ-dnVsJXpHJpofZnZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@megapath.net...
[snip]

I'm not saying "there are no miracles" actually. I'm saying "the concept
is stupid." All "it's a miracle" is saying is "I don't know how that
happened."

It's also a good way to get rid of annoying stupid people.
[snip]
.

User: "Boy Toy"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	16 Mar 2006 07:59:14 PM

On 16 Mar 2006 17:17:05 -0800, "Hugh Betcha" <gemond@canada.com> wrote
in message <1142558225.255134.191830@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

In <1142489873.638010.182750@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>, "Hugh Betcha"
<gemond@canada.com> wrote:

You have to decide for yourself; but I think life is better with
miracles than without.

So you admit this is mere wishfulness...

Which is wishfulness... that science will explain everything, or that
miracles are wonderful things?

Who said science will "explain everything?"

Perhaps not exactly, but by saying decisively that there are no
miracles; you are saying that everything is *explainable*

Or potentially explainable. A pencil fell off my desk. I don't know
why. I wasn't there when it happened. It's a miracle!

And that's rather funny given that labeling something a "miracle" explains
nothing. It's just another way of saying, "I have no idea how that
happened."

Well, yes, that was sort of my point.

Then why not say it instead of this "miracle" business?
.

User: "Bonnie Bitch"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	17 Mar 2006 03:22:02 AM

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 18:59:14 -0700, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of Boy Toy
<BoyToy@Toyz4Boyz.com>

On 16 Mar 2006 17:17:05 -0800, "Hugh Betcha" <gemond@canada.com> wrote
in message <1142558225.255134.191830@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

In <1142489873.638010.182750@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>, "Hugh Betcha"
<gemond@canada.com> wrote:

You have to decide for yourself; but I think life is better with
miracles than without.

So you admit this is mere wishfulness...

Which is wishfulness... that science will explain everything, or that
miracles are wonderful things?

Who said science will "explain everything?"

Perhaps not exactly, but by saying decisively that there are no
miracles; you are saying that everything is *explainable*

Or potentially explainable. A pencil fell off my desk. I don't know
why. I wasn't there when it happened. It's a miracle!

And that's rather funny given that labeling something a "miracle" explains
nothing. It's just another way of saying, "I have no idea how that
happened."

Well, yes, that was sort of my point.

Then why not say it instead of this "miracle" business?

Because in the cult of christ-stain-insanity, saying "I don't know"
means "I don't believe believe believe enough in the sky *****."
In christ-stain-insanity, all explanations must end with "Goddidit."
Anything else is heresy and anathema, as well as an excuse to be
judged by the other members of the cult as "not worthy" or
"unbeliever."
.

User: "Bonnie Bitch"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	17 Mar 2006 03:19:27 AM

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

In <1142489873.638010.182750@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>, "Hugh Betcha"
<gemond@canada.com> wrote:

You have to decide for yourself; but I think life is better with
miracles than without.

So you admit this is mere wishfulness...

Which is wishfulness... that science will explain everything, or that
miracles are wonderful things?

Who said science will "explain everything?"

Perhaps not exactly, but by saying decisively that there are no
miracles; you are saying that everything is *explainable*

Who are you to say that's not so? Where's your proof that led to your
corollary conclusion that everything is not explainable?
Why do you insist on relegating the human race to abject ignorance of
how the world around us works?

And that's rather funny given that labeling something a "miracle" explains
nothing. It's just another way of saying, "I have no idea how that
happened."

Well, yes, that was sort of my point.

Is it some bizarre requirement in your cult that you must remain
ignorant in order to perpetuate its bogus supernatural fol-de-rol?
Hugh, honey -- there's an entire UNIVERSE out there just waiting to be
explained. I do realize that such explanations would diminish your
cult's reliance on the good old "Goddidit" bag o' BS, but explaining
something doesn't decrease the wonder we can still experience at
phenomena.
I used to be in exactly the same boat as you... until I dumped the
religion *****. Ok, so that's maybe not an inspiring example. Let's
try .... music theory.
I used to detest music theory. Of course, I finally figured out that
my detestation thereof was directly proportional to the amount with
which my professors detested music theory, but I get ahead of myself.
For the longest time, I was wrapped up in the "oohhh-aaahh" part of
making music. And of course, knowing music theory would bespoil the
experience.
Eventually, I learned that the opposite was true. Knowing how music is
put together and how it works aurally/harmonically/rhythmically opened
my mind to how to make the music express something besides my own
egotistical superimpositions on the aesthetic.
And it's exactly the same thing for any theist, most notably
christstains.
You people not only ignore but also reject how the world actually
works so that you can keep up the abjectly ignorant, wide-eyed,
child-like "wonderment" at "the creation of Gawd all-barfy."
And then y'all want to enforce that fucked-up ***** on everyone
else, but that's for another post.
Knowing how the world around you works will open your mind to reality.
Sadly for your cult, it will end your and its egotistical
superimpositions on reality, but hey -- the truth shall set your
christstain ***** free.
Go read some Spong to figure out how to reconcile abandoning
"Goddidit" with embracing modern scholarship. Personally, it would be
hypocritical and intellectually irresponsible of me to figure out and
explain that notion for you ('cause Tefnut knows you're too god-soaked
to do it for yourself), so I leave you to your own devices.
.

User: "Scott"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	17 Mar 2006 04:09:44 PM

"Bonnie *****" <bonnieb@fifismaxi.pad> wrote in message
news:esuk121knd21i6rv7om5ncikul2u5diuqm@4ax.com...

On 16 Mar 2006 17:17:05 -0800, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of "Hugh
Betcha" <gemond@canada.com>
You people not only ignore but also reject how the world actually
works so that you can keep up the abjectly ignorant, wide-eyed,
child-like "wonderment" at "the creation of Gawd all-barfy."
And then y'all want to enforce that fucked-up ***** on everyone
else, but that's for another post.

Knowing how the world around you works will open your mind to reality.
Sadly for your cult, it will end your and its egotistical
superimpositions on reality, but hey -- the truth shall set your
christstain ***** free.

Go read some Spong to figure out how to reconcile abandoning
"Goddidit" with embracing modern scholarship. Personally, it would be
hypocritical and intellectually irresponsible of me to figure out and
explain that notion for you ('cause Tefnut knows you're too god-soaked
to do it for yourself), so I leave you to your own devices.

Damn, if that is an accurate caricature of your former religious thinking I
can see way you left religion. I'd leave too.
Scott
.

User: "Bonnie Bitch"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	17 Mar 2006 10:20:03 PM

On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 16:09:44 -0600, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of "Scott"
<scott@nospam.net>

"Bonnie *****" <bonnieb@fifismaxi.pad> wrote in message
news:esuk121knd21i6rv7om5ncikul2u5diuqm@4ax.com...

You people not only ignore but also reject how the world actually
works so that you can keep up the abjectly ignorant, wide-eyed,
child-like "wonderment" at "the creation of Gawd all-barfy."
And then y'all want to enforce that fucked-up ***** on everyone
else, but that's for another post.
Knowing how the world around you works will open your mind to reality.
Sadly for your cult, it will end your and its egotistical
superimpositions on reality, but hey -- the truth shall set your
christstain ***** free.
Go read some Spong to figure out how to reconcile abandoning
"Goddidit" with embracing modern scholarship. Personally, it would be
hypocritical and intellectually irresponsible of me to figure out and
explain that notion for you ('cause Tefnut knows you're too god-soaked
to do it for yourself), so I leave you to your own devices.

Damn, if that is an accurate caricature

you misspelled "depiction."

of your former religious thinking

And, no, lying christstain. It's how *you* assholes think.

can see way you left religion. I'd leave too.

Anyone with a brain would, did, and do.
Go read some Spong. It'll open your eyes for you.
.

User: "Scott"
Title: Re: His Holiness Pope John Paul II Miracle Investigated	18 Mar 2006 11:18:13 AM

"Bonnie *****" <bonnieb@fifismaxi.pad> wrote in message
news:kc2n1259v1tcsqgfrfsbq82p9a754qk0f3@4ax.com...

"Bonnie *****" <bonnieb@fifismaxi.pad> wrote in message
news:esuk121knd21i6rv7om5ncikul2u5diuqm@4ax.com...

Knowing how the world around you works will open your mind to reality.
Sadly for your cult, it will end your and its egotistical
superimpositions on reality, but hey -- the truth shall set your
christstain ***** free.

Go read some Spong to figure out how to reconcile abandoning
"Goddidit" with embracing modern scholarship. Personally, it would be
hypocritical and intellectually irresponsible of me to figure out and
explain that notion for you ('cause Tefnut knows you're too god-soaked
to do it for yourself), so I leave you to your own devices.

Damn, if that is an accurate caricature

you misspelled "depiction."

that's nothing new.

of your former religious thinking

And, no, lying christstain. It's how *you* assholes think.

wow!! an intolerant stereo-typing liberal......that's nothing new.

can see way you left religion. I'd leave too.

Anyone with a brain would, did, and do.

Go read some Spong. It'll open your eyes for you.

I have. He didn't impress me, either.
http://www.starcourse.org/spong/cenreview.html That much in the Bible is
allegory? Duh. that's a catholic tradition going back to Saint Augustine.
.