| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Fred Stone" |
| Date: |
11 Dec 2007 02:36:52 PM |
| Object: |
Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
Abolish the CIADestroying the interrogation tapes amounts to mutiny and
treason.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, Dec. 10, 2007, at 12:09 PM ET
Illustration by Mark Alan Stamaty. Click image to expand.
It seems flabbergastingly improbable that President George W. Bush
learned of the National Intelligence Estimate concerning Iranian nuclear
ambitions only a few days before the rest of us did, but the haplessness
of his demeanor suggested that he might, in fact, have been telling the
truth. After all, had the administration known for any appreciable length
of time that the mullahs had hit the pause button on their program in
late 2003, it would have been in a position to make a claim that is quite
probably true, namely, that our overthrow of Saddam Hussein had impressed
the Iranians in much the same way as it impressed the Libyans and made
them at least reconsider their willingness to continue flouting the Non-
Proliferation Treaty. (Given that the examination of the immense Libyan
stockpile also disclosed the fingerprints that led back to the exposure
of the A.Q. Khan nuke-mart in Pakistan, the removal of Saddam from the
chessboard has had more effect in curbing the outlaw WMD business than it
is normally given credit for.)
Nobody seems entirely sure what caused our intelligence agencies to
reverse their opinion, but it seems rather likely that the defection
and/or abduction of Brig. Gen. Ali Reza Asgari, Iran's former deputy
minister of defense, in February of this year, has something to do with
it. Asgari's ostensibly principal job had been that of liaison with
Hezbollah in Lebanon, but his debriefing could also have helped confirm
pre-existing surmises about Iran's reining-in of its nuclear ambitions.
Which is the most that can be said about those ambitions. It is
completely false for anybody to claim, on the basis of this admitted
"estimate," that Iran has ceased to be a candidate member of the
fatuously named nuclear "club." It has the desire to acquire the
weaponry, it retains the means to do so, and it has been caught lying and
cheating about the process. If it suspended some overtly military
elements of the project out of a justifiable apprehension in 2003, it has
energetically persisted in the implicit aspects—most notably the
installation of gas centrifuges at the plant in Natanz and the building
of a heavy water reactor at Arak. All that the estimate has done is to
define weaponry down and to suggest a distinction without much difference
between a "civilian" and a "military" dimension of the same program. The
acquisition of enriched uranium and of plutonium, for any purpose, is
identical with the acquisition of a thermonuclear weapons capacity. Iran
continues to strive to produce both, neither of which, as it happens, are
required for its ostensible civilian energy needs.
The briefing that I was given by the British Embassy in Tehran in 2005,
showing the howlingly glaring discrepancy between what Iran claims and
what Iran does, is not in the least challenged by the most recent
conclusions. To say that Iran has "stopped" rather than paused its
program is to offer an opinion, not to present a finding. (For more on
this, see the excellent article by Valerie Lincy and Gary Milhollin in
the Dec. 6 New York Times, and also Jonathan Schell's Dec. 9 piece on the
Guardian's Web site.) The mullahs are steadily amassing the uranium and
plutonium ingredients of a weapon and will indeed soon be able to pause,
along with other countries, like Japan, at the point where only a brief
interlude and a swift spurt of effort would put them in full possession
of the bomb.
Why, then, have our intelligence agencies helped to give the lying
Iranian theocracy the appearance of a clean bill, while simultaneously
and publicly (and with barely concealed relish) embarrassing the
president and crippling his policy? It is not just a hypothetical strike
on Iran that is rendered near-impossible by this estimate, but also the
likelihood of any concerted diplomatic or economic pressure, as well. The
policy of getting the United Nations to adopt sanctions on the regime,
which was about to garner the crucial votes, can now be regarded as
clinically dead. A fine day's work by those who claim to guard us while
we sleep.
One explanation is that, like Mark Twain's cat, which having sat on a hot
stove would never afterward sit on a cold one, the CIA has adopted a
policy of caution to make up for its "slam-dunk" embarrassment over Iraq.
This is a superficially plausible hypothesis, which ignores the fact that
for most of the duration of the Iraq debate, the CIA was all but openly
hostile to any argument for regime-change in Baghdad. This hostility
extended all the way from a frenzied attempt to discredit Ahmad Chalabi
and the Iraqi National Congress, to the Plame/Wilson imbroglio, and the
agency's "referral" of Robert Novak's disclosure to the Department of
Justice. Interagency hostility in Washington, D.C., between the CIA and
the Department of Defense has never been so damaging to any
administration, let alone to any administration in time of war, as it has
been to this one.
And now we have further confirmation of the astonishing culture of
lawlessness and insubordination that continues to prevail at the highest
levels in Langley. At a time when Congress and the courts are conducting
important hearings on the critical question of extreme interrogation, and
at a time when accusations of outright torture are helping to besmirch
and discredit the United States all around the world, a senior official
of the CIA takes the unilateral decision to destroy the crucial evidence.
This deserves to be described as what it is: mutiny and treason. Despite
a string of exposures going back all the way to the Church Commission,
the CIA cannot rid itself of the impression that it has the right to
subvert the democratic process both abroad and at home. Its criminality
and arrogance could perhaps have been partially excused if it had ever
got anything right, but, from predicting the indefinite survival of the
Soviet Union to denying that Saddam Hussein was going to invade Kuwait,
our spymasters have a Clouseau-like record, one that they have earned yet
again with their exculpation of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. It was after the
grotesque estimate of continued Soviet health and prosperity that the
late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan argued that the CIA should be
abolished. It is high time for his proposal to be revived. The system is
worse than useless—it's a positive menace. We need to shut the whole
thing down and start again.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
If you go into Sudan today; Your heart will fill with dread
If you go into Sudan today; You might just lose your head
Because on the sands; With blood on their hands
Every nut that ever was; Will be there because
Today's the day the Teddy Bears; Have their Jihad!
.
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| User: "J Young" |
|
| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
11 Dec 2007 02:59:41 PM |
|
|
"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A039EAFDB957freddybear@216.151.153.22...
Abolish the CIADestroying the interrogation tapes amounts to mutiny and
treason.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, Dec. 10, 2007, at 12:09 PM ET
Illustration by Mark Alan Stamaty. Click image to expand.
It seems flabbergastingly improbable that President George W. Bush
learned of the National Intelligence Estimate concerning Iranian nuclear
ambitions only a few days before the rest of us did, but the haplessness
of his demeanor suggested that he might, in fact, have been telling the
truth. After all, had the administration known for any appreciable length
of time that the mullahs had hit the pause button on their program in
late 2003, it would have been in a position to make a claim that is quite
probably true, namely, that our overthrow of Saddam Hussein had impressed
the Iranians in much the same way as it impressed the Libyans and made
them at least reconsider their willingness to continue flouting the Non-
Proliferation Treaty. (Given that the examination of the immense Libyan
stockpile also disclosed the fingerprints that led back to the exposure
of the A.Q. Khan nuke-mart in Pakistan, the removal of Saddam from the
chessboard has had more effect in curbing the outlaw WMD business than it
is normally given credit for.)
Nobody seems entirely sure what caused our intelligence agencies to
reverse their opinion, but it seems rather likely that the defection
and/or abduction of Brig. Gen. Ali Reza Asgari, Iran's former deputy
minister of defense, in February of this year, has something to do with
it. Asgari's ostensibly principal job had been that of liaison with
Hezbollah in Lebanon, but his debriefing could also have helped confirm
pre-existing surmises about Iran's reining-in of its nuclear ambitions.
Which is the most that can be said about those ambitions. It is
completely false for anybody to claim, on the basis of this admitted
"estimate," that Iran has ceased to be a candidate member of the
fatuously named nuclear "club." It has the desire to acquire the
weaponry, it retains the means to do so, and it has been caught lying and
cheating about the process. If it suspended some overtly military
elements of the project out of a justifiable apprehension in 2003, it has
energetically persisted in the implicit aspects-most notably the
installation of gas centrifuges at the plant in Natanz and the building
of a heavy water reactor at Arak. All that the estimate has done is to
define weaponry down and to suggest a distinction without much difference
between a "civilian" and a "military" dimension of the same program. The
acquisition of enriched uranium and of plutonium, for any purpose, is
identical with the acquisition of a thermonuclear weapons capacity. Iran
continues to strive to produce both, neither of which, as it happens, are
required for its ostensible civilian energy needs.
The briefing that I was given by the British Embassy in Tehran in 2005,
showing the howlingly glaring discrepancy between what Iran claims and
what Iran does, is not in the least challenged by the most recent
conclusions. To say that Iran has "stopped" rather than paused its
program is to offer an opinion, not to present a finding. (For more on
this, see the excellent article by Valerie Lincy and Gary Milhollin in
the Dec. 6 New York Times, and also Jonathan Schell's Dec. 9 piece on the
Guardian's Web site.) The mullahs are steadily amassing the uranium and
plutonium ingredients of a weapon and will indeed soon be able to pause,
along with other countries, like Japan, at the point where only a brief
interlude and a swift spurt of effort would put them in full possession
of the bomb.
Why, then, have our intelligence agencies helped to give the lying
Iranian theocracy the appearance of a clean bill, while simultaneously
and publicly (and with barely concealed relish) embarrassing the
president and crippling his policy? It is not just a hypothetical strike
on Iran that is rendered near-impossible by this estimate, but also the
likelihood of any concerted diplomatic or economic pressure, as well. The
policy of getting the United Nations to adopt sanctions on the regime,
which was about to garner the crucial votes, can now be regarded as
clinically dead. A fine day's work by those who claim to guard us while
we sleep.
One explanation is that, like Mark Twain's cat, which having sat on a hot
stove would never afterward sit on a cold one, the CIA has adopted a
policy of caution to make up for its "slam-dunk" embarrassment over Iraq.
This is a superficially plausible hypothesis, which ignores the fact that
for most of the duration of the Iraq debate, the CIA was all but openly
hostile to any argument for regime-change in Baghdad. This hostility
extended all the way from a frenzied attempt to discredit Ahmad Chalabi
and the Iraqi National Congress, to the Plame/Wilson imbroglio, and the
agency's "referral" of Robert Novak's disclosure to the Department of
Justice. Interagency hostility in Washington, D.C., between the CIA and
the Department of Defense has never been so damaging to any
administration, let alone to any administration in time of war, as it has
been to this one.
And now we have further confirmation of the astonishing culture of
lawlessness and insubordination that continues to prevail at the highest
levels in Langley. At a time when Congress and the courts are conducting
important hearings on the critical question of extreme interrogation, and
at a time when accusations of outright torture are helping to besmirch
and discredit the United States all around the world, a senior official
of the CIA takes the unilateral decision to destroy the crucial evidence.
This deserves to be described as what it is: mutiny and treason. Despite
a string of exposures going back all the way to the Church Commission,
the CIA cannot rid itself of the impression that it has the right to
subvert the democratic process both abroad and at home. Its criminality
and arrogance could perhaps have been partially excused if it had ever
got anything right, but, from predicting the indefinite survival of the
Soviet Union to denying that Saddam Hussein was going to invade Kuwait,
our spymasters have a Clouseau-like record, one that they have earned yet
again with their exculpation of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. It was after the
grotesque estimate of continued Soviet health and prosperity that the
late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan argued that the CIA should be
abolished. It is high time for his proposal to be revived. The system is
worse than useless-it's a positive menace. We need to shut the whole
thing down and start again.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
If you go into Sudan today; Your heart will fill with dread
If you go into Sudan today; You might just lose your head
Because on the sands; With blood on their hands
Every nut that ever was; Will be there because
Today's the day the Teddy Bears; Have their Jihad!
I've never been a big fan of the CIA but if that nut Hitchens is against it,
I'm for it.
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
11 Dec 2007 03:10:44 PM |
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"J Young" <jyoungvisions@aol.com> wrote in
news:1fjjge.oii.19.1@news.alt.net:
"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A039EAFDB957freddybear@216.151.153.22...
Abolish the CIA
Destroying the interrogation tapes amounts to mutiny
and treason.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, Dec. 10, 2007, at 12:09 PM ET
Illustration by Mark Alan Stamaty. Click image to expand.
I've never been a big fan of the CIA but if that nut Hitchens is
against it, I'm for it.
The cognitive dissonance you're going to generate with that comment ought
to be truly *amazing*, Jeffie.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
If you go into Sudan today; Your heart will fill with dread
If you go into Sudan today; You might just lose your head
Because on the sands; With blood on their hands
Every nut that ever was; Will be there because
Today's the day the Teddy Bears; Have their Jihad!
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
11 Dec 2007 08:38:39 PM |
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On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:59:41 -0500, J Young wrote:
I've never been a big fan of the CIA but if that nut Hitchens is against
it, I'm for it.
And if you're for it, it must be bad...
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
Let me get this straight: You believe that a cosmic Jewish
zombie who was his own father will let you live forever
if you pretend to eat his flesh, drink his blood, and
telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master,
so he can remove an evil force from your soul that he put
there a long time ago as punishment for all humanity because
a rib-woman made from a dust-man was convinced by a talking
snake to eat fruit from a magical tree.
- Unknown
.
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| User: "Jim07D7" |
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| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
12 Dec 2007 11:49:42 AM |
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Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
We need to shut the whole
thing down and start again.
Which covert operations agency, anywhere in the world, should we look
to as a model of doing it right?
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
12 Dec 2007 01:27:13 PM |
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Jim07D7 <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote in
news:0n70m3hriao3m7que8nk36jp1coj80q5vd@4ax.com:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
We need to shut the whole
thing down and start again.
Which covert operations agency, anywhere in the world, should we look
to as a model of doing it right?
Heh. Isn't that a trick question? :)
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
If you go into Sudan today; Your heart will fill with dread
If you go into Sudan today; You might just lose your head
Because on the sands; With blood on their hands
Every nut that ever was; Will be there because
Today's the day the Teddy Bears; Have their Jihad!
.
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| User: "Jim07D7" |
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| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
12 Dec 2007 04:24:59 PM |
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Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
Jim07D7 <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote in
news:0n70m3hriao3m7que8nk36jp1coj80q5vd@4ax.com:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
We need to shut the whole
thing down and start again.
Which covert operations agency, anywhere in the world, should we look
to as a model of doing it right?
Heh. Isn't that a trick question? :)
It is, if the general public insists on looking at and approving the
methods as "right". We must trust our representatives on this score,
and any restrictions they place on the agency's methods must be done
in private. If we don't trust them, we should replace them, but not
look over their shoulders.
The general public should judge only on the basis of results against
the mission. For example, if the mission is to keep is safe against
another WMD attack on our shores, has one occurred?
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
12 Dec 2007 07:12:09 PM |
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Jim07D7 <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote in
news:18m0m3l8qdku7sgjn29uml1587fe2ftnss@4ax.com:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
Jim07D7 <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote in
news:0n70m3hriao3m7que8nk36jp1coj80q5vd@4ax.com:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
We need to shut the whole
thing down and start again.
Which covert operations agency, anywhere in the world, should we look
to as a model of doing it right?
Heh. Isn't that a trick question? :)
It is, if the general public insists on looking at and approving the
methods as "right". We must trust our representatives on this score,
and any restrictions they place on the agency's methods must be done
in private. If we don't trust them, we should replace them, but not
look over their shoulders.
The news media seems to think it's their job to look over shoulders and
to expose every secret that anybody wants to "leak" for political gain,
at least when the target is one that the reporter approves of. And
trusting politicians doesn't seem like a proposition that is going to get
very far in the near future.
The general public should judge only on the basis of results against
the mission. For example, if the mission is to keep is safe against
another WMD attack on our shores, has one occurred?
Is that more of a general evaluation of the performance of the
government?
It's just not practical to tell the public enough to let them judge the
performance of the intelligence services, especially when covert
operations might involve active disinformation, even of our own news
media.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
If you go into Sudan today; Your heart will fill with dread
If you go into Sudan today; You might just lose your head
Because on the sands; With blood on their hands
Every nut that ever was; Will be there because
Today's the day the Teddy Bears; Have their Jihad!
.
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| User: "Jim07D7" |
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| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
13 Dec 2007 11:23:30 AM |
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Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
Jim07D7 <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote in
news:18m0m3l8qdku7sgjn29uml1587fe2ftnss@4ax.com:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
Jim07D7 <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote in
news:0n70m3hriao3m7que8nk36jp1coj80q5vd@4ax.com:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
We need to shut the whole
thing down and start again.
Which covert operations agency, anywhere in the world, should we look
to as a model of doing it right?
Heh. Isn't that a trick question? :)
It is, if the general public insists on looking at and approving the
methods as "right". We must trust our representatives on this score,
and any restrictions they place on the agency's methods must be done
in private. If we don't trust them, we should replace them, but not
look over their shoulders.
The news media seems to think it's their job to look over shoulders and
to expose every secret that anybody wants to "leak" for political gain,
at least when the target is one that the reporter approves of. And
trusting politicians doesn't seem like a proposition that is going to get
very far in the near future.
The "news' media is at a dismal low in its history, and of course we
have no one to blame but ourselves.
The general public should judge only on the basis of results against
the mission. For example, if the mission is to keep is safe against
another WMD attack on our shores, has one occurred?
Is that more of a general evaluation of the performance of the
government?
I suppose so, but it could also be the bad guys are just holding back
and watching as the 9-11 attack continues to pay dividends. Another
big attack might put us on a genuine war footing and solidify the
currently soft international support. At any rate, our intelligence
agencies are hampered by inability to penetrate the enemy or even find
them. One has to wonder whether there was intelligence predicting the
bombings in Algiers, and if not, why not. But that's what the Senate
and House Intel Committees are supposed to look after.
It's just not practical to tell the public enough to let them judge the
performance of the intelligence services, especially when covert
operations might involve active disinformation, even of our own news
media.
True. This is why we have to either trust the House and Senate
committees, or replace them. We can't expect them to tell US what's
going on.
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
13 Dec 2007 03:11:14 PM |
|
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Jim07D7 <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote in
news:hrp2m312605pbsbpjb48qie0lv648qdt3r@4ax.com:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
Jim07D7 <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote in
news:18m0m3l8qdku7sgjn29uml1587fe2ftnss@4ax.com:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
Jim07D7 <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote in
news:0n70m3hriao3m7que8nk36jp1coj80q5vd@4ax.com:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
We need to shut the whole
thing down and start again.
Which covert operations agency, anywhere in the world, should we
look to as a model of doing it right?
Heh. Isn't that a trick question? :)
It is, if the general public insists on looking at and approving the
methods as "right". We must trust our representatives on this score,
and any restrictions they place on the agency's methods must be done
in private. If we don't trust them, we should replace them, but not
look over their shoulders.
The news media seems to think it's their job to look over shoulders
and to expose every secret that anybody wants to "leak" for political
gain, at least when the target is one that the reporter approves of.
And trusting politicians doesn't seem like a proposition that is going
to get very far in the near future.
The "news' media is at a dismal low in its history, and of course we
have no one to blame but ourselves.
True. And when they don't feel like reporting some development, we're all
too easily distracted by the "look, shiny" of the latest gossip about
Britney.
The general public should judge only on the basis of results against
the mission. For example, if the mission is to keep is safe against
another WMD attack on our shores, has one occurred?
Is that more of a general evaluation of the performance of the
government?
I suppose so, but it could also be the bad guys are just holding back
and watching as the 9-11 attack continues to pay dividends. Another
big attack might put us on a genuine war footing and solidify the
currently soft international support.
I would question the "dividends" they're supposed to be collecting. al
Qaeda has been severely diminished by what they unleashed when they
attacked the US in 2001. Prior to that they were riding high in
Afghanistan and building support all over the Muslim world. Now they're
reduced to fighting holding actions along the Pakistan border and almost
destroyed in Iraq. They can still incite actions in Africa and elsewhere,
but I really question whether they have gained anything by attacking the
US. Obviously, I am not a believer in the "Bush has recruited terrorists
for them" meme that is so popular in certain circles.
At any rate, our intelligence
agencies are hampered by inability to penetrate the enemy or even find
them.
General Petraeus has done wonders for that in Iraq. Counter-insurgency
operations have proved to be very effective at getting the locals to give
up terror cells.
One has to wonder whether there was intelligence predicting the
bombings in Algiers, and if not, why not. But that's what the Senate
and House Intel Committees are supposed to look after.
Yes, but the Congress at large wants to play "gotcha" after the fact when
previously secret operations get exposed (like the waterboarding of high-
value terrorists). Now we find out that members of those panels were
briefed on the procedure as early as 2002 and approved, nay, even
encouraged the CIA to proceed and even to use harsher techniques if they
felt that they would be productive. This naturally undermines the faux
outrage that Pelosi et al display now.
It's just not practical to tell the public enough to let them judge
the performance of the intelligence services, especially when covert
operations might involve active disinformation, even of our own news
media.
True. This is why we have to either trust the House and Senate
committees, or replace them. We can't expect them to tell US what's
going on.
The trouble is that we can't trust them *not* to tell us what's going on
when they perceive some short-term political gain to be had.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"...a man's admiration for absolute government is proportinate to the
contempt he feels for those around him". Tocqueville
.
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| User: "Jim07D7" |
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| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
13 Dec 2007 05:21:58 PM |
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Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
Jim07D7 <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote in
<...>
The general public should judge only on the basis of results against
the mission. For example, if the mission is to keep is safe against
another WMD attack on our shores, has one occurred?
Is that more of a general evaluation of the performance of the
government?
I suppose so, but it could also be the bad guys are just holding back
and watching as the 9-11 attack continues to pay dividends. Another
big attack might put us on a genuine war footing and solidify the
currently soft international support.
I would question the "dividends" they're supposed to be collecting. al
Qaeda has been severely diminished by what they unleashed when they
attacked the US in 2001. Prior to that they were riding high in
Afghanistan and building support all over the Muslim world. Now they're
reduced to fighting holding actions along the Pakistan border and almost
destroyed in Iraq. They can still incite actions in Africa and elsewhere,
but I really question whether they have gained anything by attacking the
US. Obviously, I am not a believer in the "Bush has recruited terrorists
for them" meme that is so popular in certain circles.
I am not either-- my reason is because I think the time scale of such
people's thinking is too short. I just returned from a vacation in,
among other places, Greece and Turkey. What I was reminded of, in
Athens, Delos, Ephesus, Istanbul, and the Cappadocia region etc, was
the time scale involved in things, in that part of the world. Not to
be critical of you about this, but I think many Americans have a short
time scale in mind, due to our relatively short history, when they
think a judgement, one way or the other, can be made. All one can say
of these various tactics like waterboarding is, it has worked to bring
more good than bad, here, or there, or not. And I am not sure that we
in the public, have the facts -- or should have them, if they are to
do more good than bad.
At any rate, our intelligence
agencies are hampered by inability to penetrate the enemy or even find
them.
General Petraeus has done wonders for that in Iraq. Counter-insurgency
operations have proved to be very effective at getting the locals to give
up terror cells.
I will be ready to agree with you, or not, in a few years.
One has to wonder whether there was intelligence predicting the
bombings in Algiers, and if not, why not. But that's what the Senate
and House Intel Committees are supposed to look after.
Yes, but the Congress at large wants to play "gotcha" after the fact when
previously secret operations get exposed (like the waterboarding of high-
value terrorists). Now we find out that members of those panels were
briefed on the procedure as early as 2002 and approved, nay, even
encouraged the CIA to proceed and even to use harsher techniques if they
felt that they would be productive. This naturally undermines the faux
outrage that Pelosi et al display now.
Well, the truth is the first victim, on all sides afaiac.
It's just not practical to tell the public enough to let them judge
the performance of the intelligence services, especially when covert
operations might involve active disinformation, even of our own news
media.
True. This is why we have to either trust the House and Senate
committees, or replace them. We can't expect them to tell US what's
going on.
The trouble is that we can't trust them *not* to tell us what's going on
when they perceive some short-term political gain to be had.
Well, I can't say which side is more unprincipled. It's a close race
to the bottom.
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
13 Dec 2007 06:07:04 PM |
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Jim07D7 <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote in
news:5ee3m3tqq655nhsuep9merdd2iq4omurg9@4ax.com:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
Jim07D7 <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote in
<...>
The general public should judge only on the basis of results
against the mission. For example, if the mission is to keep is
safe against another WMD attack on our shores, has one occurred?
Is that more of a general evaluation of the performance of the
government?
I suppose so, but it could also be the bad guys are just holding
back and watching as the 9-11 attack continues to pay dividends.
Another big attack might put us on a genuine war footing and
solidify the currently soft international support.
I would question the "dividends" they're supposed to be collecting. al
Qaeda has been severely diminished by what they unleashed when they
attacked the US in 2001. Prior to that they were riding high in
Afghanistan and building support all over the Muslim world. Now
they're reduced to fighting holding actions along the Pakistan border
and almost destroyed in Iraq. They can still incite actions in Africa
and elsewhere, but I really question whether they have gained anything
by attacking the US. Obviously, I am not a believer in the "Bush has
recruited terrorists for them" meme that is so popular in certain
circles.
I am not either-- my reason is because I think the time scale of such
people's thinking is too short. I just returned from a vacation in,
among other places, Greece and Turkey. What I was reminded of, in
Athens, Delos, Ephesus, Istanbul, and the Cappadocia region etc, was
the time scale involved in things, in that part of the world. Not to
be critical of you about this, but I think many Americans have a short
time scale in mind, due to our relatively short history, when they
think a judgement, one way or the other, can be made. All one can say
of these various tactics like waterboarding is, it has worked to bring
more good than bad, here, or there, or not. And I am not sure that we
in the public, have the facts -- or should have them, if they are to
do more good than bad.
I like to think that my time scale is at least a little bit longer than
the "are we there yet?" mindset of those who declared Afghanistan to be a
"quagmire" after a week or two, and who "quagmired" Iraq after a few days
of fighting, when the army did the first planned pause in their offensive
before entering Baghdad.
History will judge. And history will not be kind to modern journalism.
At any rate, our intelligence
agencies are hampered by inability to penetrate the enemy or even
find them.
General Petraeus has done wonders for that in Iraq. Counter-insurgency
operations have proved to be very effective at getting the locals to
give up terror cells.
I will be ready to agree with you, or not, in a few years.
Things look pretty good for now. I hope they can keep up the momentum no
matter who gets elected next year.
One has to wonder whether there was intelligence predicting the
bombings in Algiers, and if not, why not. But that's what the Senate
and House Intel Committees are supposed to look after.
Yes, but the Congress at large wants to play "gotcha" after the fact
when previously secret operations get exposed (like the waterboarding
of high- value terrorists). Now we find out that members of those
panels were briefed on the procedure as early as 2002 and approved,
nay, even encouraged the CIA to proceed and even to use harsher
techniques if they felt that they would be productive. This naturally
undermines the faux outrage that Pelosi et al display now.
Well, the truth is the first victim, on all sides afaiac.
More reason to be skeptical when they start pointing fingers.
It's just not practical to tell the public enough to let them judge
the performance of the intelligence services, especially when covert
operations might involve active disinformation, even of our own news
media.
True. This is why we have to either trust the House and Senate
committees, or replace them. We can't expect them to tell US what's
going on.
The trouble is that we can't trust them *not* to tell us what's going
on when they perceive some short-term political gain to be had.
Well, I can't say which side is more unprincipled. It's a close race
to the bottom.
The only principle any politician adheres to is "I wanna be elected".
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"...a man's admiration for absolute government is proportinate to the
contempt he feels for those around him". Tocqueville
.
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| User: "Jim07D7" |
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| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
13 Dec 2007 11:28:11 PM |
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Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
The only principle any politician adheres to is "I wanna be elected".
On that we can agree.
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
12 Dec 2007 06:56:43 PM |
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On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:49:42 +0000, Jim07D7 wrote:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
We need to shut the whole
thing down and start again.
Which covert operations agency, anywhere in the world, should we look to
as a model of doing it right?
Well, considering the poster, I would think he'd pick the KGB...
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that may never be questioned.
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
12 Dec 2007 07:55:03 PM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote in
news:TqydnUm2f93WHv3anZ2dnUVZ_qjinZ2d@giganews.com:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:49:42 +0000, Jim07D7 wrote:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
We need to shut the whole
thing down and start again.
Which covert operations agency, anywhere in the world, should we look to
as a model of doing it right?
Well, considering the poster, I would think he'd pick the KGB...
More like the Mossad.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
If you go into Sudan today; Your heart will fill with dread
If you go into Sudan today; You might just lose your head
Because on the sands; With blood on their hands
Every nut that ever was; Will be there because
Today's the day the Teddy Bears; Have their Jihad!
.
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| User: "Jim07D7" |
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| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
13 Dec 2007 11:31:01 AM |
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Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote in
news:TqydnUm2f93WHv3anZ2dnUVZ_qjinZ2d@giganews.com:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:49:42 +0000, Jim07D7 wrote:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
We need to shut the whole
thing down and start again.
Which covert operations agency, anywhere in the world, should we look to
as a model of doing it right?
Well, considering the poster, I would think he'd pick the KGB...
More like the Mossad.
The Mossad benefits from working for a people that believes it faces a
plausible threat to its very existence. Fighting dirty is allowed in
that circumstance. Cheney et al keep sending mixed messages to the
American people. It's a "war on terror", but without genuine
sacrifices needed from the American people.
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
13 Dec 2007 03:12:32 PM |
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Jim07D7 <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote in
news:9lq2m3d4oj1v5h3v3fj8cln2gjruro1iv0@4ax.com:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote in
news:TqydnUm2f93WHv3anZ2dnUVZ_qjinZ2d@giganews.com:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:49:42 +0000, Jim07D7 wrote:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
We need to shut the whole
thing down and start again.
Which covert operations agency, anywhere in the world, should we
look to as a model of doing it right?
Well, considering the poster, I would think he'd pick the KGB...
More like the Mossad.
The Mossad benefits from working for a people that believes it faces a
plausible threat to its very existence. Fighting dirty is allowed in
that circumstance. Cheney et al keep sending mixed messages to the
American people. It's a "war on terror", but without genuine
sacrifices needed from the American people.
Would "we" support the sort of genuine sacrifices that you speak of? Or
would that merely serve as the foundation for more complaints from the
opposition?
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"...a man's admiration for absolute government is proportinate to the
contempt he feels for those around him". Tocqueville
.
|
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| User: "Jim07D7" |
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| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
13 Dec 2007 05:22:56 PM |
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Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
The Mossad benefits from working for a people that believes it faces a
plausible threat to its very existence. Fighting dirty is allowed in
that circumstance. Cheney et al keep sending mixed messages to the
American people. It's a "war on terror", but without genuine
sacrifices needed from the American people.
Would "we" support the sort of genuine sacrifices that you speak of? Or
would that merely serve as the foundation for more complaints from the
opposition?
We would be more likely to, if the current administration acted like
it was needed.
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
13 Dec 2007 06:07:43 PM |
|
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Jim07D7 <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote in
news:7lf3m3tstbr6to7r2iq7e7laedirgn90pe@4ax.com:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
The Mossad benefits from working for a people that believes it faces a
plausible threat to its very existence. Fighting dirty is allowed in
that circumstance. Cheney et al keep sending mixed messages to the
American people. It's a "war on terror", but without genuine
sacrifices needed from the American people.
Would "we" support the sort of genuine sacrifices that you speak of? Or
would that merely serve as the foundation for more complaints from the
opposition?
We would be more likely to, if the current administration acted like
it was needed.
That's what I say about Al Gore and the Global Warming crowd.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"...a man's admiration for absolute government is proportinate to the
contempt he feels for those around him". Tocqueville
.
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| User: "Jim07D7" |
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| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
13 Dec 2007 11:28:57 PM |
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Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> said:
Would "we" support the sort of genuine sacrifices that you speak of? Or
would that merely serve as the foundation for more complaints from the
opposition?
We would be more likely to, if the current administration acted like
it was needed.
That's what I say about Al Gore and the Global Warming crowd.
THat will be decided after we are gone.
.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
11 Dec 2007 07:41:05 PM |
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On 11 Dec 2007 20:36:52 GMT, in alt.atheism , Fred Stone
<fstone69@earthling.com> in
<Xns9A039EAFDB957freddybear@216.151.153.22> wrote:
Abolish the CIADestroying the interrogation tapes amounts to mutiny and
treason.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, Dec. 10, 2007, at 12:09 PM ET
Illustration by Mark Alan Stamaty. Click image to expand.
It seems flabbergastingly improbable that President George W. Bush
learned of the National Intelligence Estimate concerning Iranian nuclear
ambitions only a few days before the rest of us did, but the haplessness
of his demeanor suggested that he might, in fact, have been telling the
truth. After all, had the administration known for any appreciable length
of time that the mullahs had hit the pause button on their program in
late 2003, it would have been in a position to make a claim that is quite
probably true, namely, that our overthrow of Saddam Hussein had impressed
the Iranians in much the same way as it impressed the Libyans and made
them at least reconsider their willingness to continue flouting the Non-
Proliferation Treaty.
Or that Iran no longer needed nukes since their primary threat,
Saddam, was removed. Nukes won't help them against the U.S. and won't
help them gain even more power with the Shia in Iraq.
(Given that the examination of the immense Libyan
stockpile also disclosed the fingerprints that led back to the exposure
of the A.Q. Khan nuke-mart in Pakistan, the removal of Saddam from the
chessboard has had more effect in curbing the outlaw WMD business than it
is normally given credit for.)
One wonders, then, what would have happened if we had not given
Pakistan a free ride on this issue.
Nobody seems entirely sure what caused our intelligence agencies to
reverse their opinion,
Evidence?
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
.
|
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
|
| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
11 Dec 2007 08:13:29 PM |
|
|
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
news:tseul3lete16vlir420pnhu5bqjkic9c2n@4ax.com:
On 11 Dec 2007 20:36:52 GMT, in alt.atheism , Fred Stone
<fstone69@earthling.com> in
<Xns9A039EAFDB957freddybear@216.151.153.22> wrote:
Abolish the CIADestroying the interrogation tapes amounts to mutiny
and treason.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, Dec. 10, 2007, at 12:09 PM ET
Illustration by Mark Alan Stamaty. Click image to expand.
It seems flabbergastingly improbable that President George W. Bush
learned of the National Intelligence Estimate concerning Iranian
nuclear ambitions only a few days before the rest of us did, but the
haplessness of his demeanor suggested that he might, in fact, have
been telling the truth. After all, had the administration known for
any appreciable length of time that the mullahs had hit the pause
button on their program in late 2003, it would have been in a position
to make a claim that is quite probably true, namely, that our
overthrow of Saddam Hussein had impressed the Iranians in much the
same way as it impressed the Libyans and made them at least reconsider
their willingness to continue flouting the Non- Proliferation Treaty.
Or that Iran no longer needed nukes since their primary threat,
Saddam, was removed. Nukes won't help them against the U.S. and won't
help them gain even more power with the Shia in Iraq.
That must be why the same Iranian resistance group that revealed their
nuclear programs in 2003 says that they restarted the weapons program in
2004.
(Given that the examination of the immense Libyan
stockpile also disclosed the fingerprints that led back to the
exposure of the A.Q. Khan nuke-mart in Pakistan, the removal of Saddam
from the chessboard has had more effect in curbing the outlaw WMD
business than it is normally given credit for.)
One wonders, then, what would have happened if we had not given
Pakistan a free ride on this issue.
Free ride? We shut down the Khan network.
Nobody seems entirely sure what caused our intelligence agencies to
reverse their opinion,
Evidence?
The proliferation and divergence of commentary on the subject. And no,
I'm not going to cite it for you, Matt, so don't bother me with your
whining.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
If you go into Sudan today; Your heart will fill with dread
If you go into Sudan today; You might just lose your head
Because on the sands; With blood on their hands
Every nut that ever was; Will be there because
Today's the day the Teddy Bears; Have their Jihad!
.
|
|
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
|
| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
11 Dec 2007 09:06:51 PM |
|
|
On 12 Dec 2007 02:13:29 GMT, in alt.atheism , Fred Stone
<fstone69@earthling.com> in
<Xns9A03D7E1471B5freddybear@216.151.153.66> wrote:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
news:tseul3lete16vlir420pnhu5bqjkic9c2n@4ax.com:
On 11 Dec 2007 20:36:52 GMT, in alt.atheism , Fred Stone
<fstone69@earthling.com> in
<Xns9A039EAFDB957freddybear@216.151.153.22> wrote:
Abolish the CIADestroying the interrogation tapes amounts to mutiny
and treason.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, Dec. 10, 2007, at 12:09 PM ET
Illustration by Mark Alan Stamaty. Click image to expand.
It seems flabbergastingly improbable that President George W. Bush
learned of the National Intelligence Estimate concerning Iranian
nuclear ambitions only a few days before the rest of us did, but the
haplessness of his demeanor suggested that he might, in fact, have
been telling the truth. After all, had the administration known for
any appreciable length of time that the mullahs had hit the pause
button on their program in late 2003, it would have been in a position
to make a claim that is quite probably true, namely, that our
overthrow of Saddam Hussein had impressed the Iranians in much the
same way as it impressed the Libyans and made them at least reconsider
their willingness to continue flouting the Non- Proliferation Treaty.
Or that Iran no longer needed nukes since their primary threat,
Saddam, was removed. Nukes won't help them against the U.S. and won't
help them gain even more power with the Shia in Iraq.
That must be why the same Iranian resistance group that revealed their
nuclear programs in 2003 says that they restarted the weapons program in
2004.
It couldn't be that these organizations have their own reason to lie.
(Given that the examination of the immense Libyan
stockpile also disclosed the fingerprints that led back to the
exposure of the A.Q. Khan nuke-mart in Pakistan, the removal of Saddam
from the chessboard has had more effect in curbing the outlaw WMD
business than it is normally given credit for.)
One wonders, then, what would have happened if we had not given
Pakistan a free ride on this issue.
Free ride? We shut down the Khan network.
We did? And all without actually talking to Khan.
Nobody seems entirely sure what caused our intelligence agencies to
reverse their opinion,
Evidence?
The proliferation and divergence of commentary on the subject. And no,
I'm not going to cite it for you, Matt, so don't bother me with your
whining.
Fred, we all know that you refuse to provide support if asked, don't
work. I don't whine, I just ask to so that it is clear. But you
misunderstood, "Evidence" was my suggestion for why the intelligence
agencies changed their opinion. They changed because they learned
things that led to a different opinion. You might try that some day.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
.
|
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
|
| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
12 Dec 2007 05:21:26 AM |
|
|
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
news:pujul3h4rnd67f5jfmju4lj3143j2q3slc@4ax.com:
On 12 Dec 2007 02:13:29 GMT, in alt.atheism , Fred Stone
<fstone69@earthling.com> in
<Xns9A03D7E1471B5freddybear@216.151.153.66> wrote:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
news:tseul3lete16vlir420pnhu5bqjkic9c2n@4ax.com:
On 11 Dec 2007 20:36:52 GMT, in alt.atheism , Fred Stone
<fstone69@earthling.com> in
<Xns9A039EAFDB957freddybear@216.151.153.22> wrote:
Abolish the CIADestroying the interrogation tapes amounts to mutiny
and treason.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, Dec. 10, 2007, at 12:09 PM ET
Illustration by Mark Alan Stamaty. Click image to expand.
It seems flabbergastingly improbable that President George W. Bush
learned of the National Intelligence Estimate concerning Iranian
nuclear ambitions only a few days before the rest of us did, but the
haplessness of his demeanor suggested that he might, in fact, have
been telling the truth. After all, had the administration known for
any appreciable length of time that the mullahs had hit the pause
button on their program in late 2003, it would have been in a
position to make a claim that is quite probably true, namely, that
our overthrow of Saddam Hussein had impressed the Iranians in much
the same way as it impressed the Libyans and made them at least
reconsider their willingness to continue flouting the Non-
Proliferation Treaty.
Or that Iran no longer needed nukes since their primary threat,
Saddam, was removed. Nukes won't help them against the U.S. and
won't help them gain even more power with the Shia in Iraq.
That must be why the same Iranian resistance group that revealed their
nuclear programs in 2003 says that they restarted the weapons program
in 2004.
It couldn't be that these organizations have their own reason to lie.
They weren't lying in 2003.
(Given that the examination of the immense Libyan
stockpile also disclosed the fingerprints that led back to the
exposure of the A.Q. Khan nuke-mart in Pakistan, the removal of
Saddam from the chessboard has had more effect in curbing the outlaw
WMD business than it is normally given credit for.)
One wonders, then, what would have happened if we had not given
Pakistan a free ride on this issue.
Free ride? We shut down the Khan network.
We did? And all without actually talking to Khan.
Yes, Matt, and that's lesson number one for Stupid Liberals: action is
effective, talk isn't.
Nobody seems entirely sure what caused our intelligence agencies to
reverse their opinion,
Evidence?
The proliferation and divergence of commentary on the subject. And no,
I'm not going to cite it for you, Matt, so don't bother me with your
whining.
Fred, we all know that you refuse to provide support if asked, don't
work. I don't whine, I just ask to so that it is clear. But you
misunderstood, "Evidence" was my suggestion for why the intelligence
agencies changed their opinion. They changed because they learned
things that led to a different opinion. You might try that some day.
You might try writing for clarity, Matt.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
If you go into Sudan today; Your heart will fill with dread
If you go into Sudan today; You might just lose your head
Because on the sands; With blood on their hands
Every nut that ever was; Will be there because
Today's the day the Teddy Bears; Have their Jihad!
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
12 Dec 2007 08:07:52 AM |
|
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On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:41:05 -0500, Matt Silberstein wrote:
Or that Iran no longer needed nukes since their primary threat, Saddam,
was removed. Nukes won't help them against the U.S.
Oh I wouldn't say that. The Bush administration has clearly shown they
only invade after ensuring the country cannot resist in any significant
way. N. Korea is a far, far greater threat to world peace than Iraq ever
could have been but we've barely even glanced at them because we know
they *have* nukes.
We've also kissed Pakistan's ***** even though they've backstabbed us on
bin Laden and have been the main source *for* nuclear proliferation in
recent years. Because, you see, they have nukes.
But Bush knew his own father had destroyed Iraq's military capability and
Clinton had continued the policies of Bush Sr., keeping Iraq disarmed, so
it was safe to invade.
I mean, they told us the war would be a "cake walk" and couldn't imagine
it lasting more than six weeks. Because they knew we'd disarmed Iraq and
that Iraq had no serious weapons of even the conventional kind.
Bush has *clearly* sent the message that to be safe from US invasion, you
must get nukes. And fast.
I'm not surprised Iran had such a program. I'm surprised they stopped.
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"When your doctrine forces you to claim that God's reactions
are identical to those of a universe without God, you have
nothing left to defend." - Free Lunch
.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
|
| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
12 Dec 2007 09:55:50 AM |
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On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:07:52 -0600, in alt.atheism , "Mark K. Bilbo"
<gmail@com.mkbilbo> in <jaidnW-2vZKldsLanZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@giganews.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:41:05 -0500, Matt Silberstein wrote:
Or that Iran no longer needed nukes since their primary threat, Saddam,
was removed. Nukes won't help them against the U.S.
Oh I wouldn't say that. The Bush administration has clearly shown they
only invade after ensuring the country cannot resist in any significant
way. N. Korea is a far, far greater threat to world peace than Iraq ever
could have been but we've barely even glanced at them because we know
they *have* nukes.
We've also kissed Pakistan's ***** even though they've backstabbed us on
bin Laden and have been the main source *for* nuclear proliferation in
recent years. Because, you see, they have nukes.
But Bush knew his own father had destroyed Iraq's military capability and
Clinton had continued the policies of Bush Sr., keeping Iraq disarmed, so
it was safe to invade.
I mean, they told us the war would be a "cake walk" and couldn't imagine
it lasting more than six weeks. Because they knew we'd disarmed Iraq and
that Iraq had no serious weapons of even the conventional kind.
Bush has *clearly* sent the message that to be safe from US invasion, you
must get nukes. And fast.
I'm not surprised Iran had such a program. I'm surprised they stopped.
I'm not that surprised either way. Nukes would have helped them
against Iraq if Iraq attacked again, but would not do much against the
U.S. They can do a better job against us, actually, without nukes
(since we would then probably not use them either).
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
.
|
|
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Hitch: Abolish the CIA |
12 Dec 2007 07:27:47 PM |
|
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On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:55:50 -0500, Matt Silberstein wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:07:52 -0600, in alt.atheism , "Mark K. Bilbo"
<gmail@com.mkbilbo> in <jaidnW-2vZKldsLanZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@giganews.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:41:05 -0500, Matt Silberstein wrote:
Or that Iran no longer needed nukes since their primary threat,
Saddam, was removed. Nukes won't help them against the U.S.
Oh I wouldn't say that. The Bush administration has clearly shown they
only invade after ensuring the country cannot resist in any significant
way. N. Korea is a far, far greater threat to world peace than Iraq ever
could have been but we've barely even glanced at them because we know
they *have* nukes.
We've also kissed Pakistan's ***** even though they've backstabbed us on
bin Laden and have been the main source *for* nuclear proliferation in
recent years. Because, you see, they have nukes.
But Bush knew his own father had destroyed Iraq's military capability
and Clinton had continued the policies of Bush Sr., keeping Iraq
disarmed, so it was safe to invade.
I mean, they told us the war would be a "cake walk" and couldn't imagine
it lasting more than six weeks. Because they knew we'd disarmed Iraq and
that Iraq had no serious weapons of even the conventional kind.
Bush has *clearly* sent the message that to be safe from US invasion,
you must get nukes. And fast.
I'm not surprised Iran had such a program. I'm surprised they stopped.
I'm not that surprised either way. Nukes would have helped them against
Iraq if Iraq attacked again, but would not do much against the U.S. They
can do a better job against us, actually, without nukes (since we would
then probably not use them either).
I disagree, they are a deterrent even for us. While an actual nuclear
conflict with us wouldn't be possible for them, the US public would have
a really hard time with the idea of having our troops nuked. The Bushies
know that. Notice them treating Kim Loony Ding-Dong with, heh, kim gloves.
Seriously, the point of a small, weak country getting nukes is having in
reserve the threat that an invading ground force would be risking having
a nuke air burst over their heads.
(This keeps Pakistan and India from going all out. Pakistan has made it
clear they'll go nuclear if invaded. They don't even have to go straight
to hitting Mumbai either, just nuke the ground forces. India has sat
tight, tense as things have gotten between them.)
So imagine the Bushies got their Iran war and we throw 100,000 troops at
them. Then we have 80,000 casualties in one day. Would the public want to
escalate or would they turn on Bush? Further, stretched as we are, even
if we turned Iran into radioactive glass, we'd have how much of a
military left? And how many willing volunteers to join up having just
watched most of an entire invading force vaporize? And we'd explain this
to a very angry Russia and China how? Especially as they watched us start
the conflict? And how many Arab countries with oil would be dealing with
fallout and get temperamental about it? For that matter, what price would
oil be if an entire OPEC nation was in radioactive ruins and we'd be
paying how many twenty dollar bills for a head of lettuce?
The logic of nukes is twisted but it works. Mutually Assured Destruction--
how appropriate it abbreviates to MAD--was, essentially, "you may take us
out but you're going with us!" It was an insane calculus yet the US and
USSR never had a war.
The Bushies went after Iraq because they *knew* no such threat existed.
If Iraq actually had had, say, stockpiles of gas and we were looking at
30,000 US dead not 3,000+, John Kerry would be in the White House.
And the Bushies knew that too.
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
Theology: The study of elaborate verbal disguises for non-ideas.
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