Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new book reveals

Religions > Atheism > Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new book reveals

LINK TO THIS PAGE

rating : 0 | 0

Page 1 of 1

Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"J Young"
Date:	05 Jun 2007 12:03:58 AM
Object:	Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new book reveals

http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=24275
By Nancy Frazier O'Brien
6/4/2007
Catholic News Service
WASHINGTON (CNS) - An SS general close to Adolf Hitler foiled a plot
to kidnap Pope Pius XII during World War II and to put the Vatican and
its treasures under Nazi control, according to a new book.
The book, A Special Mission by Dan Kurzman, refutes arguments that
Pope Pius XII maintained a public silence about Nazi actions during
World War II because he was anti-Semitic or because he was sympathetic
toward Hitler.
"They were bitter, bitter enemies. They despised each other," said
Kurzman of the pontiff and the fuhrer in a May 31 telephone interview.
The pope hated Hitler "not only for his inhumanity but because he
threatened the whole church structure."
Hitler, for his part, "saw the pope as his greatest enemy" and as
someone with whom he was "competing for the minds and souls that he
wanted to control," the author added.
Kurzman also said he found no evidence that Pope Pius was anti-
Semitic, noting that one of his closest childhood friends was a Jewish
boy with whom he remained in contact throughout his life.
The book, published June 1 by Da Capo Press in Cambridge, Mass., is
subtitled Hitler's Secret Plot to Seize the Vatican and Kidnap Pope
Pius XII. It details the actions of SS Gen. Karl Wolff, chief of staff
to SS Chief Heinrich Himmler, in the months after the overthrow of
Italian dictator Benito Mussolini in July 1943.
Describing Wolff as one of "history's most successful opportunists,"
Kurzman said the general earned the "full confidence" of both Hitler,
who ordered him in September 1943 to kidnap Pope Pius, and of the
pontiff himself, whom Wolff warned about the plot during a secret
meeting at the Vatican in May 1944.
Hitler ordered the kidnapping, according to the book, because he
feared that Pope Pius would speak out about Nazi actions against the
Jews, and in particular against a proposed Nazi roundup of the Jewish
community in Rome. Hitler was afraid the pope's words could trigger a
"revolution" against the Nazis in Italy, worldwide and even within the
Germany army, about 40 percent of which was made up of Catholics.
Pope Pius, for his part, was afraid that a strong public stand against
the Nazis would force Hitler to take action against the Vatican and
would also endanger the many Jews being sheltered in Italian
monasteries, churches and convents.
The pope's behind-the-scenes actions also brought the roundup of Roman
Jews to a halt, Kurzman said. Only about 1,000 of the 8,000 Jews
living in Rome at the time were deported to Nazi concentration camps,
he said.
Kurzman, who worked as a foreign correspondent for The Washington Post
during the 1960s and early '70s, was the first journalist to interview
Wolff in 1970 after the former general was allowed to return to his
home town of Darmstadt in Germany. Wolff died in 1984.
"He claimed to me that he didn't know Jews were being murdered, which
was of course a lie," Kurzman said. "He tried to close his mind to the
reality" of the Holocaust by saying that his job was only to get the
trains to destinations like Dachau and Treblinka on time, while
ignoring what was happening to those who arrived at the Nazi
concentration camps, the author added.
Although the Nazis were careful not to put any details of the plot to
kidnap Pope Pius XII into writing, and Kurzman has not seen materials
in the Vatican Secret Archives from that period, he said the plot and
other details about the pope's actions during World War II were
confirmed to him by Jesuit Father Peter Gumpel, who had read the
archival material as "relator," or chief investigator, for Pope Pius'
sainthood cause.
Despite criticism from some Jewish groups, work on the sainthood cause
for Pope Pius XII has continued in recent years. In a vote Father
Gumpel called "unanimous and totally positive," the Congregation for
Saints' Causes recommended May 8 that Pope Benedict XVI formally
declare the World War II-era pope venerable.
Kurzman, who has written 16 other books, said he had no opinion on
whether Pope Pius XII should be beatified or canonized, but wanted to
clear up certain untruths contained in Hitler's Pope, a 1999 book by
English author John Cornwell.
"He was a human being and he made mistakes, but I found no evidence
that he was anti-Semitic," Kurzman said of Pope Pius. He said a letter
cited by Cornwell containing an anti-Semitic remark was not written by
the pope but by an aide and did not reflect the pope's views.
.

User: "bob young"
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new bookreveals	05 Jun 2007 08:09:02 AM

--------------9EC6338437483E89C6057F45
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
J Young wrote:

http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=24275

Trash........ Hitler had the pope on the palm pf his hand throughout the
war because Pius XII hated communism so he supported the Nazis.

By Nancy Frazier O'Brien
6/4/2007
Catholic News Service

WASHINGTON (CNS) - An SS general close to Adolf Hitler foiled a plot
to kidnap Pope Pius XII during World War II and to put the Vatican and
its treasures under Nazi control, according to a new book.

The book, A Special Mission by Dan Kurzman, refutes arguments that
Pope Pius XII maintained a public silence about Nazi actions during
World War II because he was anti-Semitic or because he was sympathetic
toward Hitler.

"They were bitter, bitter enemies. They despised each other," said
Kurzman of the pontiff and the fuhrer in a May 31 telephone interview.
The pope hated Hitler "not only for his inhumanity but because he
threatened the whole church structure."

Hitler, for his part, "saw the pope as his greatest enemy" and as
someone with whom he was "competing for the minds and souls that he
wanted to control," the author added.

Kurzman also said he found no evidence that Pope Pius was anti-
Semitic, noting that one of his closest childhood friends was a Jewish
boy with whom he remained in contact throughout his life.

The book, published June 1 by Da Capo Press in Cambridge, Mass., is
subtitled Hitler's Secret Plot to Seize the Vatican and Kidnap Pope
Pius XII. It details the actions of SS Gen. Karl Wolff, chief of staff
to SS Chief Heinrich Himmler, in the months after the overthrow of
Italian dictator Benito Mussolini in July 1943.

Describing Wolff as one of "history's most successful opportunists,"
Kurzman said the general earned the "full confidence" of both Hitler,
who ordered him in September 1943 to kidnap Pope Pius, and of the
pontiff himself, whom Wolff warned about the plot during a secret
meeting at the Vatican in May 1944.

Hitler ordered the kidnapping, according to the book, because he
feared that Pope Pius would speak out about Nazi actions against the
Jews, and in particular against a proposed Nazi roundup of the Jewish
community in Rome. Hitler was afraid the pope's words could trigger a
"revolution" against the Nazis in Italy, worldwide and even within the
Germany army, about 40 percent of which was made up of Catholics.

Pope Pius, for his part, was afraid that a strong public stand against
the Nazis would force Hitler to take action against the Vatican and
would also endanger the many Jews being sheltered in Italian
monasteries, churches and convents.

The pope's behind-the-scenes actions also brought the roundup of Roman
Jews to a halt, Kurzman said. Only about 1,000 of the 8,000 Jews
living in Rome at the time were deported to Nazi concentration camps,
he said.

Kurzman, who worked as a foreign correspondent for The Washington Post
during the 1960s and early '70s, was the first journalist to interview
Wolff in 1970 after the former general was allowed to return to his
home town of Darmstadt in Germany. Wolff died in 1984.

"He claimed to me that he didn't know Jews were being murdered, which
was of course a lie," Kurzman said. "He tried to close his mind to the
reality" of the Holocaust by saying that his job was only to get the
trains to destinations like Dachau and Treblinka on time, while
ignoring what was happening to those who arrived at the Nazi
concentration camps, the author added.

Although the Nazis were careful not to put any details of the plot to
kidnap Pope Pius XII into writing, and Kurzman has not seen materials
in the Vatican Secret Archives from that period, he said the plot and
other details about the pope's actions during World War II were
confirmed to him by Jesuit Father Peter Gumpel, who had read the
archival material as "relator," or chief investigator, for Pope Pius'
sainthood cause.

Despite criticism from some Jewish groups, work on the sainthood cause
for Pope Pius XII has continued in recent years. In a vote Father
Gumpel called "unanimous and totally positive," the Congregation for
Saints' Causes recommended May 8 that Pope Benedict XVI formally
declare the World War II-era pope venerable.

Kurzman, who has written 16 other books, said he had no opinion on
whether Pope Pius XII should be beatified or canonized, but wanted to
clear up certain untruths contained in Hitler's Pope, a 1999 book by
English author John Cornwell.

"He was a human being and he made mistakes, but I found no evidence
that he was anti-Semitic," Kurzman said of Pope Pius. He said a letter
cited by Cornwell containing an anti-Semitic remark was not written by
the pope but by an aide and did not reflect the pope's views.

--------------9EC6338437483E89C6057F45
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-7
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
 
J Young wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><a href="http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=24275">http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=24275</a></blockquote>
Trash........ Hitler had the pope on the palm pf his hand throughout the
war because Pius XII hated communism so he supported the Nazis.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><a href="http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=24275"></a> 
By Nancy Frazier O'Brien
 6/4/2007
 Catholic News Service
WASHINGTON (CNS) - An SS general close to Adolf Hitler foiled a plot
 to kidnap Pope Pius XII during World War II and to put the Vatican
and
 its treasures under Nazi control, according to a new book.
The book, A Special Mission by Dan Kurzman, refutes arguments that
 Pope Pius XII maintained a public silence about Nazi actions during
 World War II because he was anti-Semitic or because he was sympathetic
 toward Hitler.
"They were bitter, bitter enemies. They despised each other," said
 Kurzman of the pontiff and the fuhrer in a May 31 telephone interview.
 The pope hated Hitler "not only for his inhumanity but because he
 threatened the whole church structure."
Hitler, for his part, "saw the pope as his greatest enemy" and as
 someone with whom he was "competing for the minds and souls that he
 wanted to control," the author added.
Kurzman also said he found no evidence that Pope Pius was anti-
 Semitic, noting that one of his closest childhood friends was a Jewish
 boy with whom he remained in contact throughout his life.
The book, published June 1 by Da Capo Press in Cambridge, Mass., is
 subtitled Hitler's Secret Plot to Seize the Vatican and Kidnap Pope
 Pius XII. It details the actions of SS Gen. Karl Wolff, chief of staff
 to SS Chief Heinrich Himmler, in the months after the overthrow of
 Italian dictator Benito Mussolini in July 1943.
Describing Wolff as one of "history's most successful opportunists,"
 Kurzman said the general earned the "full confidence" of both Hitler,
 who ordered him in September 1943 to kidnap Pope Pius, and of the
 pontiff himself, whom Wolff warned about the plot during a secret
 meeting at the Vatican in May 1944.
Hitler ordered the kidnapping, according to the book, because he
 feared that Pope Pius would speak out about Nazi actions against the
 Jews, and in particular against a proposed Nazi roundup of the Jewish
 community in Rome. Hitler was afraid the pope's words could trigger
a
 "revolution" against the Nazis in Italy, worldwide and even within
the
 Germany army, about 40 percent of which was made up of Catholics.
Pope Pius, for his part, was afraid that a strong public stand against
 the Nazis would force Hitler to take action against the Vatican and
 would also endanger the many Jews being sheltered in Italian
 monasteries, churches and convents.
The pope's behind-the-scenes actions also brought the roundup of Roman
 Jews to a halt, Kurzman said. Only about 1,000 of the 8,000 Jews
 living in Rome at the time were deported to Nazi concentration camps,
 he said.
Kurzman, who worked as a foreign correspondent for The Washington Post
 during the 1960s and early '70s, was the first journalist to interview
 Wolff in 1970 after the former general was allowed to return to his
 home town of Darmstadt in Germany. Wolff died in 1984.
"He claimed to me that he didn't know Jews were being murdered, which
 was of course a lie," Kurzman said. "He tried to close his mind to
the
 reality" of the Holocaust by saying that his job was only to get the
 trains to destinations like Dachau and Treblinka on time, while
 ignoring what was happening to those who arrived at the Nazi
 concentration camps, the author added.
Although the Nazis were careful not to put any details of the plot to
 kidnap Pope Pius XII into writing, and Kurzman has not seen materials
 in the Vatican Secret Archives from that period, he said the plot and
 other details about the pope's actions during World War II were
 confirmed to him by Jesuit Father Peter Gumpel, who had read the
 archival material as "relator," or chief investigator, for Pope Pius'
 sainthood cause.
Despite criticism from some Jewish groups, work on the sainthood cause
 for Pope Pius XII has continued in recent years. In a vote Father
 Gumpel called "unanimous and totally positive," the Congregation for
 Saints' Causes recommended May 8 that Pope Benedict XVI formally
 declare the World War II-era pope venerable.
Kurzman, who has written 16 other books, said he had no opinion on
 whether Pope Pius XII should be beatified or canonized, but wanted
to
 clear up certain untruths contained in Hitler's Pope, a 1999 book by
 English author John Cornwell.
"He was a human being and he made mistakes, but I found no evidence
 that he was anti-Semitic," Kurzman said of Pope Pius. He said a letter
 cited by Cornwell containing an anti-Semitic remark was not written
by
 the pope but by an aide and did not reflect the pope's views.</blockquote>
</html>
--------------9EC6338437483E89C6057F45--
.

User: "Spartakus"
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new book reveals	05 Jun 2007 10:59:19 PM

J Young <youngopini...@aol.com> wrote:

Pius may have pulled strings in the background to save some Jews from
the Nazis, but he made no public condemnation of what the Nazis were
doing (including sending Roman Jews to the camps) until it was safe to
do so. Whatever he was, he was not exactly a paragon of moral
courage.
In 1933, Pius XII signed a concordat with Nazi Germany, effectively
making the Vatican an ally of Nazi Germany. This concordat was a
legally binding document in which the Vatican handed over the
direction of German Catholic churches to Hitler. German Catholic
priests and bishops had to swear allegiance to the Hitler and the
Third Reich in order to continue serving the Church. Appointments of
bishops and archbishops in Germany were subject to the Nazi
government's approval. In effect, Pius XII signed over the souls of
43,000,000 German Catholics to Hitler.
I don't see a plausible scenario in which the Nazis would have seized
the Vatican and kidnapped the Pope, especially considering that they
were in retreat from the advancing American and British forces in
Italy.
[...]

Although the Nazis were careful not to put any details of the plot to
kidnap Pope Pius XII into writing, and Kurzman has not seen materials
in the Vatican Secret Archives from that period, ...

Iow, Kurzman's entire thesis is based on speculation, hearsay and the
self-serving statements of a former SS officer.
Riiiiight.
.

User: "BAM"
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new book reveals	27 Jun 2007 07:08:35 PM

"Spartakus" <spartakus@my-deja.com> wrote

--Before he became Pope Pius XII, Cardinal Pacelli drafted the papal
encyclical, MIT BRENNEDNDER SORGE, in which Pius XI denounced Nazi paganism
and racism; the document was smuggled into Germany in March, 1937 and read
from all Catholic pulpits, which infuriated the Nazis;
--It is well documented by Jewish scholars like Joseph Lichten of B'nai
B'rith that Pius used the assets of the Vatican to ransom Jews from the
Nazis and that the Vatican under Pius ran an extensive network of hide-outs.
Even the Pope's summer residence, Castel Gondolfo, was used to hide fugitive
Jews. The Pope, moreover, took personal repsonsibility for the children of
deported Jews;
--Largely as a result of the Church's efforts, the Jews in Italy had a far
higher survival rate under Nazi occupation than was the case in other
countries; estimates of the number of Jews saved by the Vatican's efforts
range up to several hundred thousand; this was one reason why the chief
Rabbi of Rome converted to Catholicism at the end of the war;
--In appreciation of what Pius did for the Jews, the World Jewish Congress
made a large cash gift to the Vatican in 1945; in the same year, Rabbi
Herzog of Jerusalem sent a "special blessing" to the Pope "for his
lifesaving efforts on behalf ofthe Jews during the Nazi occupation of
Italy"; and when Pius died in 1958, Israel's Foreign Minister Golda Meir
gave him a moving eulogy at the United Nations for the same reason;
--We share the grief of the world over the death of His Holiness Pope Pius
XII. During a generation of wars and dissensions he affirmed the high ideals
of peace and compassion. During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our
people went through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to
condemn the persecutors and comiserate with their victims. The life of our
time has been enriched by a voice which expressed the great moral truths
above the tumults of daily conflicts. We grieve over the loss of a great
defender of peace.....What was to be gained by Pius's getting up on a soap
box and lashing out at the Nazis? Both the International Red Cross and the
World Council of Churches came to the same conclusion as the Vatican:
relief efforts for the Jews would be more effective if the agencies remained
relatively quiet; yet, you never hear anybody attacking the Red Cross for
its "silence"about the Holocaust;
--In 1942, the Catholic hierarchy of Amsterdam spoke out vigorously against
the Nazi treatment of the Jews; the Nazi response was a redoubling of
round-ups and deportations; by the end of the war, 90 percent of the Jews in
Amsterdam wereliquidated. Jewish relief officials were in complete
agreement that a public attack by the Vatican against the Nazis would a) not
have the slightest effect on Hitler and b) would seriously jeopardize the
lives of Jews who were being hidden in convents, monasteries, etc.;
--Nevertheless, Pius's Christmas message in 1942 decried the fact that
hundreds of thousands were being persecuted "solely because of their race or
ancestory." The German ambassador to the Vatican complained that Pius was
"clearly speaking onbehalf of the Jews." A NEW YORK TIMES editorial on
Christmasday, 1942 praised Pius as "a lonely voice crying out of thesilence
of a continent";
--The scurrilous lie that Pius somehow quietly abetted the Final Solution
began with Rolf Hochhuth's 1962 play THE DEPUTY, which is a total
fabrication. One does not need to be a psychologist to understand why a
German playwright might do this; it's called guilt transference;
--Finally, apropos of the Vatican's 1933 concordat with the Nazi government,
which Pius XI signed with great misgiving: The Vatican throughout history
has had to sign concordats with goverments of which it disapproves; the
Church has a fundamental duty to serve Catholics wherever they may be and it
must have a MODUS OPERANDI with all governments, even (or especially) bad
ones. The German concordat guaranteed Catholic marriages, protected Catholic
education and allowed the creation of new dioceses; it was not meant to
endorse the Nazi government, which the Church condemned on many occasions.
That is a simple outline of the case. The Church's record was not perfect,
but how many other institutions did this much?
From "A Question of Judgement: Pius XII and the Jews, 1963 by the late Dr.
Joseph Lichten, then head of the Intercultural Affairs Department of the
Anti-Defamation League
of B'nai B'rith:
"An indictment has been brought down on Pope Pius XII, and by extension
on the Catholic Church, of criminal implication in the extermination of some
six million Jews during World War II.....What is the case against Pius XII?
In brief, that as head of one
of the most powerful moral forces on earth he committed an unspeakable sin
of omission by not issuing a formal statement condemning the Nazis'
genocidal slaughter of the Jews, and that his silence was motivated by
reasons considered in modern times as base: political exigency, economic
interests and personal ambition.
What is the case for him? That in relation to the insane behavior of the
Nazis, from overlords to self styled cogs like Eichmann, he did everything
humanly possible to save lives and alleviate suffereing among the Jews: that
a formal statement would have provoked the Nazis to brutal retaliation, and
would substantially have thwarted further Catholic action on behalf of Jews.
To the Sacred College of Cardinals Pius XII wrote on June 2, 1943: "Every
word that We addressed to the responsible authorities and every one of Our
public declarations had to be seriously weighed and considered in the
interest of the persecuted themselves in order not to make their situation
unwittingly even more difficult and more unbearable."
And by the way, Sparky, name anyone else on earth that did anything to help
the Jews.
BAM
.

User: "Spartakus"
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new book reveals	28 Jun 2007 08:43:20 PM

"BAM" <mcca5...@blahblahbellsouth.net> wrote:

"Spartakus" <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote

In Mit Brennednder Sorge, Pius XI's main complaint was that the Nazis
were not living up to their side of the bargain with regard to the
Concordat between the Nazis and the Vatican. He does not even mention
the Jews.

--It is well documented by Jewish scholars like Joseph Lichten of
B'nai B'rith that Pius used the assets of the Vatican to ransom
Jews from the Nazis and that the Vatican under Pius ran an extensive
network of hide-outs. Even the Pope's summer residence, Castel
Gondolfo, was used to hide fugitive Jews. The Pope, moreover, took
personal repsonsibility for the children of deported Jews;

Which I affirmed when I said "Pius may have pulled strings in the
background to save some Jews from the Nazis". This does not refute
the rest of my statement.

--Largely as a result of the Church's efforts, the Jews in Italy had
a far higher survival rate under Nazi occupation than was the case
in other countries;

There is no correlation between Jewish survival rates and the
influence of the Catholic Church in Nazi-occupied countries. The
countries with the best survival rates tended to the ones least
influenced by the Vatican. For example, France's rate was 75% and
Denmark's was a whopping 99.3%. Contrast that with Poland - its
Jewish survival rate was less than 5%, and Poland is a very Catholic
country. If Italy's survival rate is up there with France and
Denmark, it is because of the Italian *people*, not the Church.

estimates of the number of Jews saved by the Vatican's efforts
range up to several hundred thousand;

Unsubstantiated to this day. The Vatican has never given full access
to their archives with regard to its activities in the 20th century.

this was one reason why the chief Rabbi of Rome converted to
Catholicism at the end of the war;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Zolli
"According to biographer Judith Cabaud, in 1944, while
conducting a Yom Kippur service, Zolli experienced
a mystical encounter with Jesus Christ."
He was consequently rejected by much of the Jewish community in Rome.
That seems a more likely explanation of his conversion.
[--the remainder of BLAM's propaganda - copied and pasted WITHOUT
ATTRIBUTION from www.catholic.net - deleted--]
In addition to your plagiarized text from a Catholic source, get a
fuller picture of the issue by clicking through to this:
http://www.hagshama.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=18
It's factual, well-documented and even bends over backwards to be fair
to the Vatican. But the stubborn facts still indict Pius XII and the
Church as an institution.

And by the way, Sparky, name anyone else on earth that did anything
to help the Jews.

That's easy, BLAM - Sweden and Denmark.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_the_Danish_Jews
"The rescue of the Danish Jews occurred during
Denmark's occupation by Nazi Germany during
World War II. When German authorities in
Denmark ordered that Danish Jews be arrested
and deported to Germany in October 1943, many
Danes and Swedes took part in a collective
effort to evacuate the roughly 8,000 Jews of
Denmark by sea to nearby Sweden. The rescue
allowed the vast majority of Denmark's Jewish
population to avoid capture by the Nazis and
is considered to be one of the largest actions
of collective resistance to repression in the
countries occupied by Nazi Germany. As a result
of the rescue, most of Denmark's Jewish
population survived the Holocaust."
"Most", like in "all but a handful". Most of the Jews who were
captured were sent to Theresienstadt instead of the extermination
camps. Only 51 Danish Jews died in German captivity. For a really
ripping narrative of the rescue of the Danish Jews, read "Beethoven's
Hair", by Russell Martin.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new book reveals	25 Jun 2007 08:14:54 PM

On Jun 5, 10:59 pm, Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:

Jews initiated the war in 1933, so it's reasonable to conclude that
Hitler would eventually put them in camps.
It's been proven that the Red Cross regularly scheduled visits to many
of the camps, until the Allied bombings made it impossible to send
food, medical supplies, etc <and don't forget about the Typhus-related
deaths >. This is where much of the misrepresented, archival footage
of emaciated/dead Jews comes from. It's been used as propaganda from
the beginning.
Necro Butcher
.

User: "cactus"
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new bookreveals	25 Jun 2007 10:41:22 PM

wrote:

On Jun 5, 10:59 pm, Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:

Jews initiated the war in 1933, so it's reasonable to conclude that
Hitler would eventually put them in camps.

Citations? Credible ones only please.

It's been proven that the Red Cross regularly scheduled visits to many
of the camps, until the Allied bombings made it impossible to send
food, medical supplies, etc <and don't forget about the Typhus-related
deaths >. This is where much of the misrepresented, archival footage
of emaciated/dead Jews comes from. It's been used as propaganda from
the beginning.

You sound like a disciple of David Irving. His credibility is shot also.

Necro Butcher

User: ""
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new book reveals	26 Jun 2007 05:28:52 PM

On Jun 25, 10:41 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:

Jewwatch....@gmail.com wrote:

On Jun 5, 10:59 pm, Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:

Jews initiated the war in 1933, so it's reasonable to conclude that
Hitler would eventually put them in camps.

Citations? Credible ones only please.

What is your prerequisite for credibility? Everyone has an agenda; for
some it's to spread lies, for others it's to find the truth. For
starters, please check this link and let me know what you think.
www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/jdecwar.html

You sound like a disciple of David Irving. His credibility is shot also.

Why do you think his credibility is shot? I'm asking because I
sincerely want your opinion. Has he stated lies about Jews? Thanks.
Necro Butcher
.

User: "Bert Hyman"
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new book reveals	27 Jun 2007 07:56:39 AM

() wrote in
news:1182896932.010846.118910@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

What is your prerequisite for credibility? Everyone has an agenda;
for some it's to spread lies, for others it's to find the truth.
For starters, please check this link and let me know what you
think.

www.wintersonnenende.com

Thanks for the pointer; it's clear that your agenda is to spread
lies.
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |

User: "cactus"
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new bookreveals	27 Jun 2007 01:33:42 AM

wrote:

On Jun 25, 10:41 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:

Jewwatch....@gmail.com wrote:

On Jun 5, 10:59 pm, Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:

Jews initiated the war in 1933, so it's reasonable to conclude that
Hitler would eventually put them in camps.

Citations? Credible ones only please.

What is your prerequisite for credibility? Everyone has an agenda; for
some it's to spread lies, for others it's to find the truth. For
starters, please check this link and let me know what you think.

www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/jdecwar.html

Sure. Glad to. It's a hate site, a historical revisionist site that
tries to spin the Holocaust as the fault of the Jews. Like all such
websites, it consists almost entirely of lies, fabrications and
historical distortions.
There was indeed a Jewish boycott of Germany declared, but it was
largely ineffective. It was a response to substantial antisemitism in
Weimar Republic Germany. This from
http://www.facinghistory.org/Campus/weimar.nsf/d4d78f16a333642f85256ba700566dd3/caec16ac99eea4a585256d03006d2328?OpenDocument
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On November 5th and 6th, 1923, a mob of 30,000 people rioted in Berlin
to protest the misery brought on by the hyperinflation. Many of these
Germans blamed their plight on Jews who they mistakenly believed
controlled the German economy and were involved in an international
conspiracy to dominate the world economy. Two major Jewish organizations
protested against the rioting and the antisemitism which made 1000
Jewish-owned businesses a prime target of the riots. One of these
protesting organizations was the Zionistische Vereinigung f�r
Deutschland (ZVFD - Zionist federation of Germany), which believed that
Jews had no future in Europe and should prepare to resettle in the Holy
Land of Palestine. Relatively few Germans were Zionists and the Zionist
movement was much stronger in Eastern Europe.
The other protesting organization was Centralverein deutscher
Staatsb�rger j�dischen Glaubens (CV - Central Association of German
Citizens of the Jewish Faith). This organization was pledged to defend
the rights of Jews based upon the principle of civil self-help as well
as to help German Jews cultivate their German-mindedness. The CV
represented far more Germans Jews than the Zionist organization. It
generally spoke softly and always chose to stress the Germaneness and
de-emphasize the separateness of Germany�s Jews. German Jews, such as
Gershom Scholem, claimed that none of the Jewish organizations
sufficiently recognized the danger to Jews represented by antisemitism
and the rising Nazi Party of Adolf Hitler. He also claimed that German
Jews� faith in reasoned argument and appeals to facts and reason were
na�ve and had no hope of success. American Jews and the leaders of
American Jewish Organizations such as the American Jewish Committee and
the American Jewish Congress watched the deteriorating atmosphere for
Jews in the last years of Weimar Germany with interest. These American
Jewish leaders tended to play down the seriousness of the situation and
did not wish to call attention to their own separateness within American
society by making appeals on behalf of their German Jewish brethren.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So there was some dissension within the Jewish community about economic
action. In any case a number of Jews, my grandparents among them, saw
the writing on the wall and left very nice lives in Germany in the early
1930s. The nazis seized on any excuses that they could to strike at
Jews. Their first boycott, undertaken just after Hitler came to power,
failed because the people did not support it. It took the nazis 5 years
before they could perpetrate pogroms such as Kristallnacht.
The Jews did not cause the nazis any economic damage with their pitiful
boycott. Even so, it didn't stop Hitler and his followers from murdering
millions of Jews across Europe. They murdered Roma (Gypsies) when they
did nothing to them. They murdered homosexuals because of the nazis'
latent fears of their own homosexuality.
You apologists try and deflect the blame everywhere except where it
actually lies. Modern Germany has moved beyond its past. Unfortunately,
some people have not.

You sound like a disciple of David Irving. His credibility is shot also.

Why do you think his credibility is shot? I'm asking because I
sincerely want your opinion. Has he stated lies about Jews? Thanks.

The issue is not whether he lied about Jews, but whether he lied in his
role as an historian. He was publicly called a holocaust denier by
Deborah Lipstadt. He sued her and her publisher for libel in a British
Court. He lost, and the judgement against him has forced him into
bankruptcy. The court found that he had substantially and deliberately
misrepresented the facts in 19 cases. Here is an excerpt from the
judgement, which can be found at
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/judgment-00-00.html
____________________________________________________________________________
The nature of some of Irving�s errors
13.143 As I have already indicated it is material to take account of the
nature or quality of what Irving claims to have been mistakes or
misapprehensions on his part. Certain of Irving�s misrepresentations of
the historical evidence might appear to be simple mistakes on his part,
for instance the misreading of haben as Juden in Himmler�s telephone log
for 1 December 1941. But there are other occasions where Irving�s
treatment of the historical evidence is so perverse and egregious that
it is difficult to accept that it is inadvertence on his part. Examples
include Irving�s rejection of the evidence for the existence of gas
chambers at Auschwitz; his claim that Hitler lost interest in
anti-semitism on coming to power; his account of Hitler�s meeting with
Horthy in April 1943; his wholesale dismissal of the testimony of Marie
Vaillant-Couturier and his continued reliance on the forged Tagesbefehl
No. 47 which purportedly gave the number of casualties in Dresden. I
have referred in the course of this judgment to other instances where
Irving�s account flies in the face of the available evidence.
13.144 Mistakes and misconceptions such as these appear to me by their
nature unlikely to have been innocent. They are more consistent with a
willingness on Irving�s part knowingly to misrepresent or manipulate or
put a �spin� on the evidence so as to make it conform with his own
preconceptions. In my judgment the nature of these misstatements and
misjudgments by Irving is a further pointer towards the conclusion that
he has deliberately skewed the evidence to bring it into line with his
political beliefs.
____________________________________________________________________________
There is lots more - the judgment runs some 330 pages. Irving got
called a liar, and had the claim withstood a court challenge. I can
only conclude that either he was so deluded that he thought he could
win, or that he was so deluded that he actually believed his own lies.
Who knows?
So yes, David Irving throughly discredited himself as an historian of
the holocaust.
.

User: "Spartakus"
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new book reveals	26 Jun 2007 10:50:39 PM

wrote:

cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:

wrote:

On Jun 5, 10:59 pm,Spartakus<sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:

Jews initiated the war in 1933, so it's reasonable to conclude that
Hitler would eventually put them in camps.

Citations? Credible ones only please.

What is your prerequisite for credibility? Everyone has an agenda;
for some it's to spread lies, for others it's to find the truth. For
starters, please check this link and let me know what you think.

Correction: YOU have an agenda, as your choice of handle ("Jewwatch",
fercrissake!) and of reference source demonstrate:

www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/jdecw...

Featuring a false, anti-semitic headline in a low-brow English
tabloid. For more information, go here:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar11.html
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new book reveals	26 Jun 2007 10:51:29 PM

On 25-Jun-2007,

wrote:

On Jun 5, 10:59 pm, Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:

Jews initiated the war in 1933,

Funny how you idiots have yet to ever actually prove this....
But what else could we expect from an anonymous coward
who constantly proclaims his entire "race"s inferiority to less
than 2% of the population...?
Susan
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new book reveals	27 Jun 2007 10:47:30 AM

On Jun 26, 10:51 pm,

wrote:

Jews initiated the war in 1933,

Funny how you idiots have yet to ever actually prove this....

Must be tons of idiots floating around then:
"Germany must be turned into a waste land, as happened there during
the 30 year War." (Das Morgenthau Tagebuch,The Morgenthau Dairy, p.
11).
"The fight against Germany has now been waged for months by every
Jewish community, on every conference, in all labor unions and by
every single Jew in the world. There are reasons for the assumption
that our share in this fight is of general importance. We shall start
a spiritual and material war of the whole world against Germany.
Germany is striving to become once again a great nation, and to
recover her lost territories as well as her colonies. But our Jewish
interests call for the complete destruction of Germany..." (Valadimir
Jabotinsky, in Mascha Rjetsch, January,1934)
"No gassing took place in any camp on German soil."(Nazi Hunter Simon
Wisenthal, in his Books and Bookmen, p. 5
"The Second World War is being fought for the defense of the
fundamentals of Judaism." (Statement by Rabbi Felix Mendlesohn,
Chicago Sentinel, October 8, 1942).
"We Jews regard our race as superior to all humanity,and look forward,
not to its ultimate union with other races,but to its triumph over
them." (Goldwin Smith, Jewish Professor of Modern History at Oxford
University, October, 1981)
". . . purposely overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at
Auschwitz-Birkenau by many times their true numbers. With the end of
communism in Poland and the former Soviet Union, officials at the
Auschwitz museum have meticulously lowered the casualty figures in
line with the estimates of historians who, for years,have insisted
that between one and 1 1/2 million people perished at Auschwitz-
Birkenau - 80 - 90% of them Jews. (The Breitbard Document, as
published by the Simon Wiesenthal Center )
"We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers.Nothing
you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy
because we want a world of our own." (You Gentiles,by Jewish Author
Maurice Samuels, p. 155).
"Use the courts, use the judges, use the constitution of the country,
use its medical societies and its laws to further our ends. Do not
stint in your labor in this direction. And when you have succeeded you
will discover that you can now effect your own legislation at will and
you can, by careful organization, by constant campaigns about the
terrors of society, by pretense as to your effectiveness, make the
capitalist himself, by his own appropriation, finance a large portion
of the quiet Communist conquest of that nation." (Address of the Jew
Laventria Beria,The Communist Textbook on Psychopolitics, page 8).
"Zionism was willing to sacrifice the whole of European Jewry for a
Zionist State. Everything was done to create a state of Israel and
that was only possible through a world war. Wall Street and Jewish
large bankers aided the war effort on both sides. Zionists are also to
blame for provoking the growing hatred for Jews." (Joseph Burg, The
Toronto Star, March 31,1988).
"There is scarcely an event in modern history that cannot be traced to
the Jews. We Jews today, are nothing else but the world's seducers,
its destroyer's, its incendiaries." (Jewish Writer, Oscar Levy, The
World Significance of the Russian Revolution).
"In 1890, the first election after the expiration of
[Germany's]Bismarck's anti-socialist law the Social Democrats amassed
over1.4 million votes...the ideology of the Social Democratic movement
interpreted all economic, social, and political phenomena in terms of
an all encompassing Marxist theory."
"... about 2/3rds of the Jews voted for the Social Democrats.Every
democratic party received electoral and financial support from the
Jews, the Social Democrats getting the greatest share."(Lucy S.
Dawidowicz, The War Against The Jews 1933-1945, pages55 and 228
respectively, by Bantam Books Incorporated (#13084-6,1979 ed).
In 1897 was founded the Bund, the union of Jewish workers in Poland
and Lithuania. . . They engaged in revolutionary activity upon a large
scale, and their energy made them the spearhead of the Party (Article
on "Communism" by Harold J. Laski,Encyc. Brit., Vol. III, pp 824-827).
"...There is much in the fact of Bolshevism itself.In the fact that so
many Jews are Bolsheviks. In the fact that the ideals of Bolshevism
are consonant with the finest ideals of Judaism." (The Jewish
Chronicle, April 4, 1918
"National and racial chauvinism is a vestige of the misanthropic
customs characteristic of the period of cannibalism. Anti-semitism, as
an extreme form of racial chauvinism, is the most dangerous vestige of
cannibalism... under USSR law active anti-Semites are liable to the
death penalty." (Stalin, Collected Works, vol.13, p. 30).
"Soviet Russia is a dictatorship of Jewry." Arno Mayer (Jewish
Professor at Princeton, "Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?")
"There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of
Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution
by these international and for the most partatheistical
Jews." ( Winston Churchill, Illustrated Sunday Herald, Feb. 8, 1920)
"The average Pole could not but notice in the Stalinist era that the
two most powerful men in the country--Berman and Minc--were both
Jewish as was the dreaded security official Rozanski."Piotr W. Wandycz
(Yale University), N.Y. Review of Books, Aug.18, 1983, p. 51).
"The forces of reaction are being mobilized. A combination of England,
France and Russia will sooner or later bar the triumphal march of the
crazed Fuhrer. Either by accident or design, a Jew has come into the
position of the foremost importance in each of these nations. In the
hands of non-Aryans, lie the very lives of millions...and when the
smoke of battle clears, and the trumpets blare no more, and the
bullets cease to blast! Then will be presented a tableau showing the
man who played. God, the swastika Christus, being lowered none too
gently into a hole in the ground, as a trio of non-Aryans, in tone a
ramified requiem, that sounds suspiciously like a medley of
Marseillaise, God Save the King, and the international;blending in the
grand finale, into a militant, proud arrangement of Eile! Elie! [This
is the traditional Jewish cry of triumph].(The American Hebrew, New
York City, June 3, 1938
"Step by step, I have arrived at the conviction that the aims of
Communism in Europe are sinister and fatal. At the Nuremberg Trials,
I, together with my Russian colleague, condemned Nazi Aggression and
Terror. I believe now that Hitler and the German People did not want
war. BUT WE, {England}, DECLARED WAR ON GERMANY,INTENT ON DESTROYING
IT, in accordance with our principle of Balance of Power, and we were
encouraged by the 'Americans' {Jews} around Roosevelt. We ignored
Hitler's pleading, not to enter into war.Now we are forced to realize
that Hitler was right. He offered us the co-operation of Germany:
instead, since 1945, we have been facing the immense power of the
Soviet Empire. I feel ashamed and humiliated to see that the aims we
accused Hitler of, are being relentlessly pursued now, only under a
different label."(Ashamed and Humiliated, The British Attorney General
Sir Hartle Shawcross, said in a speech at Stourbridge, March 16/84
(AP)).

But what else could we expect from an anonymous coward
who constantly proclaims his entire "race"s inferiority to less
than 2% of the population...?

Susan

I'm not anonymous, nor a coward. My name is Necro Butcher. And, btw,
in the Bolshevik era, 52 percent of the membership of the Soviet
communist party was Jewish, though Jews comprised only 1.8 percent of
the total population (Stuart Kahan, The Wolf of the Kremlin,p. 81).
Necro Butcher
.

User: "cactus"
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new bookreveals	27 Jun 2007 11:58:13 PM

wrote:

On Jun 26, 10:51 pm,

wrote:

Jews initiated the war in 1933,

Funny how you idiots have yet to ever actually prove this....

Must be tons of idiots floating around then:

None of these mined quotes, if real, include any actual description of
how an economic boycott would be undertaken. In any case we all know
that it never was effective.

"Germany must be turned into a waste land, as happened there during
the 30 year War." (Das Morgenthau Tagebuch,The Morgenthau Dairy, p.
11).

"The fight against Germany has now been waged for months by every
Jewish community, on every conference, in all labor unions and by
every single Jew in the world. There are reasons for the assumption
that our share in this fight is of general importance. We shall start
a spiritual and material war of the whole world against Germany.
Germany is striving to become once again a great nation, and to
recover her lost territories as well as her colonies. But our Jewish
interests call for the complete destruction of Germany..." (Valadimir
Jabotinsky, in Mascha Rjetsch, January,1934)

"No gassing took place in any camp on German soil."(Nazi Hunter Simon
Wisenthal, in his Books and Bookmen, p. 5

That one is possible. And even credible. The gassings happened mainly in
Poland at Auschitz/Birkenau. The murders in death camps in Germany and
other places were by starvation, disease and mistreatment.

"The Second World War is being fought for the defense of the
fundamentals of Judaism." (Statement by Rabbi Felix Mendlesohn,
Chicago Sentinel, October 8, 1942).

"We Jews regard our race as superior to all humanity,and look forward,
not to its ultimate union with other races,but to its triumph over
them." (Goldwin Smith, Jewish Professor of Modern History at Oxford
University, October, 1981)

". . . purposely overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at
Auschwitz-Birkenau by many times their true numbers. With the end of
communism in Poland and the former Soviet Union, officials at the
Auschwitz museum have meticulously lowered the casualty figures in
line with the estimates of historians who, for years,have insisted
that between one and 1 1/2 million people perished at Auschwitz-
Birkenau - 80 - 90% of them Jews. (The Breitbard Document, as
published by the Simon Wiesenthal Center )

"We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers.Nothing
you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy
because we want a world of our own." (You Gentiles,by Jewish Author
Maurice Samuels, p. 155).

"Use the courts, use the judges, use the constitution of the country,
use its medical societies and its laws to further our ends. Do not
stint in your labor in this direction. And when you have succeeded you
will discover that you can now effect your own legislation at will and
you can, by careful organization, by constant campaigns about the
terrors of society, by pretense as to your effectiveness, make the
capitalist himself, by his own appropriation, finance a large portion
of the quiet Communist conquest of that nation." (Address of the Jew
Laventria Beria,The Communist Textbook on Psychopolitics, page 8).

"Zionism was willing to sacrifice the whole of European Jewry for a
Zionist State. Everything was done to create a state of Israel and
that was only possible through a world war. Wall Street and Jewish
large bankers aided the war effort on both sides. Zionists are also to
blame for provoking the growing hatred for Jews." (Joseph Burg, The
Toronto Star, March 31,1988).

"There is scarcely an event in modern history that cannot be traced to
the Jews. We Jews today, are nothing else but the world's seducers,
its destroyer's, its incendiaries." (Jewish Writer, Oscar Levy, The
World Significance of the Russian Revolution).

"In 1890, the first election after the expiration of
[Germany's]Bismarck's anti-socialist law the Social Democrats amassed
over1.4 million votes...the ideology of the Social Democratic movement
interpreted all economic, social, and political phenomena in terms of
an all encompassing Marxist theory."

"... about 2/3rds of the Jews voted for the Social Democrats.Every
democratic party received electoral and financial support from the
Jews, the Social Democrats getting the greatest share."(Lucy S.
Dawidowicz, The War Against The Jews 1933-1945, pages55 and 228
respectively, by Bantam Books Incorporated (#13084-6,1979 ed).

In 1897 was founded the Bund, the union of Jewish workers in Poland
and Lithuania. . . They engaged in revolutionary activity upon a large
scale, and their energy made them the spearhead of the Party (Article
on "Communism" by Harold J. Laski,Encyc. Brit., Vol. III, pp 824-827).

"...There is much in the fact of Bolshevism itself.In the fact that so
many Jews are Bolsheviks. In the fact that the ideals of Bolshevism
are consonant with the finest ideals of Judaism." (The Jewish
Chronicle, April 4, 1918

"National and racial chauvinism is a vestige of the misanthropic
customs characteristic of the period of cannibalism. Anti-semitism, as
an extreme form of racial chauvinism, is the most dangerous vestige of
cannibalism... under USSR law active anti-Semites are liable to the
death penalty." (Stalin, Collected Works, vol.13, p. 30).

"Soviet Russia is a dictatorship of Jewry." Arno Mayer (Jewish
Professor at Princeton, "Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?")

"There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of
Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution
by these international and for the most partatheistical
Jews." ( Winston Churchill, Illustrated Sunday Herald, Feb. 8, 1920)

"The average Pole could not but notice in the Stalinist era that the
two most powerful men in the country--Berman and Minc--were both
Jewish as was the dreaded security official Rozanski."Piotr W. Wandycz
(Yale University), N.Y. Review of Books, Aug.18, 1983, p. 51).

"The forces of reaction are being mobilized. A combination of England,
France and Russia will sooner or later bar the triumphal march of the
crazed Fuhrer. Either by accident or design, a Jew has come into the
position of the foremost importance in each of these nations. In the
hands of non-Aryans, lie the very lives of millions...and when the
smoke of battle clears, and the trumpets blare no more, and the
bullets cease to blast! Then will be presented a tableau showing the
man who played. God, the swastika Christus, being lowered none too
gently into a hole in the ground, as a trio of non-Aryans, in tone a
ramified requiem, that sounds suspiciously like a medley of
Marseillaise, God Save the King, and the international;blending in the
grand finale, into a militant, proud arrangement of Eile! Elie! [This
is the traditional Jewish cry of triumph].(The American Hebrew, New
York City, June 3, 1938

"Step by step, I have arrived at the conviction that the aims of
Communism in Europe are sinister and fatal. At the Nuremberg Trials,
I, together with my Russian colleague, condemned Nazi Aggression and
Terror. I believe now that Hitler and the German People did not want
war. BUT WE, {England}, DECLARED WAR ON GERMANY,INTENT ON DESTROYING
IT, in accordance with our principle of Balance of Power, and we were
encouraged by the 'Americans' {Jews} around Roosevelt. We ignored
Hitler's pleading, not to enter into war.Now we are forced to realize
that Hitler was right. He offered us the co-operation of Germany:
instead, since 1945, we have been facing the immense power of the
Soviet Empire. I feel ashamed and humiliated to see that the aims we
accused Hitler of, are being relentlessly pursued now, only under a
different label."(Ashamed and Humiliated, The British Attorney General
Sir Hartle Shawcross, said in a speech at Stourbridge, March 16/84
(AP)).

But what else could we expect from an anonymous coward
who constantly proclaims his entire "race"s inferiority to less
than 2% of the population...?

Susan

I'm not anonymous, nor a coward. My name is Necro Butcher.

And why should we believe you?
And when I tried to check out your quotes, most of what I got was
antisemitic or rabid Christian websites. Do you have any credible
sources for these quotes?
And, btw,

in the Bolshevik era, 52 percent of the membership of the Soviet
communist party was Jewish, though Jews comprised only 1.8 percent of
the total population (Stuart Kahan, The Wolf of the Kremlin,p. 81).

Right. That's because the Jews had been discriminated against and
persecuted so long by the Czar that they felt they had nothing to lose.
And yet despite the persecution, the pogroms and the discrimination,
they held to their idealism. Yes the were part of the revolution, but
the weren't part of the counterrevolution. Most of them were murdered or
exiled by the goyim who actually prevailed.
Why did you include the little item about Russian revolutionaries with
the alleged self-introduction? Is there something else to announce?
.

User: "Robert"
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new book reveals	27 Jun 2007 04:08:24 PM

A little bit about Adolf Hitler from www.TheDragonOption.com
"It kind of reminds me of Adolf Hitler in a way. I always wondered if
there was some point before he invaded Russia, before he started the
concentration camps, and before he began eliminating indigenous
populations where he could have sued for peace and lived in harmony
with the world rather than in opposition to it. Perhaps if he had
appreciated his earlier accomplishments and changed his rhetoric, he
could have curtailed much of the suffering that was later imposed on
his nation and the world. Instead, he became the most influential
person of the twentieth century, and for all the wrong reasons."
For more about Adolf Hitler, see this topic:
www.TheDragonOption.com/chapter4.html#topic19
.

User: "LC"
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new book reveals	05 Jun 2007 08:39:12 AM

Ku Klux Katlick "J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1181019838.653784.260470@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=24275

LOL!

WASHINGTON (CNS) - An SS general close to Adolf Hitler foiled a plot
to kidnap Pope Pius XII during World War II and to put the Vatican and
its treasures under Nazi control, according to a new book.

The Vatican is still fruitlessly trying to spin away the legacy of "Hitler's
Pope", much to the world's amusement.
Chew on this, IBen:
"Without doubt the chancellor lives in faith in God. He recognizes
Christianity as the foundation of Western culture."~ Cardinal Faulhaber
[quoted from Helmreich, p.279]
"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so"~ Adolph Hitler
"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator.
By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."~ Adolph Hitler
"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will
of the Almighty Creator."~ Adolph Hitler
.

User: "Hollis Brown"
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new book reveals	05 Jun 2007 05:27:28 PM

On Jun 4, 11:03 pm, J Young <youngopini...@aol.com> wrote:

Catholic News Service

Good grief.
Speculative fiction is fun!
HB
.

User: "Syd M."
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new book reveals	06 Jun 2007 02:20:52 PM

On Jun 5, 6:27 pm, Hollis Brown <AT_Tapp...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Jun 4, 11:03 pm, J Young <youngopini...@aol.com> wrote:

Catholic News Service

Good grief.

Speculative fiction is fun!

HB

Speculative fantasy, more like.
PDW
.

User: "Ghod"
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new bookreveals	25 Jun 2007 07:11:01 PM

Syd M. wrote:

On Jun 5, 6:27 pm, Hollis Brown <AT_Tapp...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Jun 4, 11:03 pm, J Young <youngopini...@aol.com> wrote:

Catholic News Service

Good grief.

Speculative fiction is fun!

HB

Speculative fantasy, more like.

As opposed to?
.

User: "NefeshBarYochai"
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new book reveals	05 Jun 2007 06:16:06 PM

On Jun 4, 11:03 pm, J Young <youngopini...@aol.com> wrote:

http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=24275

By Nancy Frazier O'Brien
6/4/2007
Catholic News Service

WASHINGTON (CNS) - An SS general close to Adolf Hitler foiled a plot
to kidnap Pope Pius XII during World War II and to put the Vatican and
its treasures under Nazi control, according to a new book.

The book, A Special Mission by Dan Kurzman, refutes arguments that
Pope Pius XII maintained a public silence about Nazi actions during
World War II because he was anti-Semitic or because he was sympathetic
toward Hitler.

"They were bitter, bitter enemies. They despised each other," said
Kurzman of the pontiff and the fuhrer in a May 31 telephone interview.
The pope hated Hitler "not only for his inhumanity but because he
threatened the whole church structure."

Hitler, for his part, "saw the pope as his greatest enemy" and as
someone with whom he was "competing for the minds and souls that he
wanted to control," the author added.

Kurzman also said he found no evidence that Pope Pius was anti-
Semitic, noting that one of his closest childhood friends was a Jewish
boy with whom he remained in contact throughout his life.

The book, published June 1 by Da Capo Press in Cambridge, Mass., is
subtitled Hitler's Secret Plot to Seize the Vatican and Kidnap Pope
Pius XII. It details the actions of SS Gen. Karl Wolff, chief of staff
to SS Chief Heinrich Himmler, in the months after the overthrow of
Italian dictator Benito Mussolini in July 1943.

Describing Wolff as one of "history's most successful opportunists,"
Kurzman said the general earned the "full confidence" of both Hitler,
who ordered him in September 1943 to kidnap Pope Pius, and of the
pontiff himself, whom Wolff warned about the plot during a secret
meeting at the Vatican in May 1944.

Hitler ordered the kidnapping, according to the book, because he
feared that Pope Pius would speak out about Nazi actions against the
Jews, and in particular against a proposed Nazi roundup of the Jewish
community in Rome. Hitler was afraid the pope's words could trigger a
"revolution" against the Nazis in Italy, worldwide and even within the
Germany army, about 40 percent of which was made up of Catholics.

Pope Pius, for his part, was afraid that a strong public stand against
the Nazis would force Hitler to take action against the Vatican and
would also endanger the many Jews being sheltered in Italian
monasteries, churches and convents.

The pope's behind-the-scenes actions also brought the roundup of Roman
Jews to a halt, Kurzman said. Only about 1,000 of the 8,000 Jews
living in Rome at the time were deported to Nazi concentration camps,
he said.

Kurzman, who worked as a foreign correspondent for The Washington Post
during the 1960s and early '70s, was the first journalist to interview
Wolff in 1970 after the former general was allowed to return to his
home town of Darmstadt in Germany. Wolff died in 1984.

"He claimed to me that he didn't know Jews were being murdered, which
was of course a lie," Kurzman said. "He tried to close his mind to the
reality" of the Holocaust by saying that his job was only to get the
trains to destinations like Dachau and Treblinka on time, while
ignoring what was happening to those who arrived at the Nazi
concentration camps, the author added.

Although the Nazis were careful not to put any details of the plot to
kidnap Pope Pius XII into writing, and Kurzman has not seen materials
in the Vatican Secret Archives from that period, he said the plot and
other details about the pope's actions during World War II were
confirmed to him by Jesuit Father Peter Gumpel, who had read the
archival material as "relator," or chief investigator, for Pope Pius'
sainthood cause.

Despite criticism from some Jewish groups, work on the sainthood cause
for Pope Pius XII has continued in recent years. In a vote Father
Gumpel called "unanimous and totally positive," the Congregation for
Saints' Causes recommended May 8 that Pope Benedict XVI formally
declare the World War II-era pope venerable.

Kurzman, who has written 16 other books, said he had no opinion on
whether Pope Pius XII should be beatified or canonized, but wanted to
clear up certain untruths contained in Hitler's Pope, a 1999 book by
English author John Cornwell.

"He was a human being and he made mistakes, but I found no evidence
that he was anti-Semitic," Kurzman said of Pope Pius. He said a letter
cited by Cornwell containing an anti-Semitic remark was not written by
the pope but by an aide and did not reflect the pope's views.

Why would Hitler have to kidnap the Pope, it's a known fact that the
Pope was openly for the Nazi's especially since the church could
capitolize on all the spoils the Nazi's took from the Jews.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new book reveals	05 Jun 2007 12:21:08 AM

alt.abortion and soc.culture.jewish newsgroups dropped.
On Jun 4, 10:03 pm, J Young <youngopini...@aol.com> wrote:

http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=24275

Although the Nazis were careful not to put any details of the plot to
kidnap Pope Pius XII into writing,

Convenient.

and Kurzman has not seen materials
in the Vatican Secret Archives from that period,

Also convenient. And the Vatican neither confirms nor denies?

he said the plot and
other details about the pope's actions during World War II were
confirmed to him by Jesuit Father Peter Gumpel, who had read the
archival material as "relator," or chief investigator, for Pope Pius'
sainthood cause.

So the guy in charge of investigating Pius' sainthood cause releases
"info" that puts Pius in a good light vis-a-vis Pius' actions with the
Nazis.
Again, pretty convenient.
Where's the journalism? With no corroboration, it's a work of fiction,
nothing more.

Kurzman, who has written 16 other books, said he had no opinion on
whether Pope Pius XII should be beatified or canonized, but wanted to
clear up certain untruths contained in Hitler's Pope, a 1999 book by
English author John Cornwell.

And make some cash in the process. Wow, that's journalism. Get a guy
who wants his sainthood candidate to tell a story and write a
fictional account of it.
Without corroboration, it's fictional. Plain and simple.
Yep. All pretty convenient.
/BC
.

User: "Geoff"
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new book reveals	05 Jun 2007 09:59:47 AM

wrote:

Without corroboration, it's fictional. Plain and simple.

Yep. All pretty convenient.

How long before Osprey comes along and calls you a lie-beral?
.

User: "Syd M."
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new book reveals	05 Jun 2007 05:19:14 PM

On Jun 5, 10:59 am, "Geoff" <geb...@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote:

ttamborse...@gmail.com wrote:

Without corroboration, it's fictional. Plain and simple.

Yep. All pretty convenient.

How long before Osprey comes along and calls you a lie-beral?

Any minute now, I bet..
PDW
.

User: "Parsifal"
Title: Re: Hitler's plot to kidnap pope foiled by Nazi general, new book reveals	05 Jun 2007 12:47:36 AM

On 5 juin, 07:21,

wrote:

alt.abortion and soc.culture.jewish newsgroups dropped.

On Jun 4, 10:03 pm, J Young <youngopini...@aol.com> wrote:

http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=24275

Although the Nazis were careful not to put any details of the plot to
kidnap Pope Pius XII into writing,

Convenient.

and Kurzman has not seen materials
in the Vatican Secret Archives from that period,

Also convenient. And the Vatican neither confirms nor denies?

So the guy in charge of investigating Pius' sainthood cause releases
"info" that puts Pius in a good light vis-a-vis Pius' actions with the
Nazis.

Again, pretty convenient.

Where's the journalism? With no corroboration, it's a work of fiction,
nothing more.

And make some cash in the process. Wow, that's journalism. Get a guy
who wants his sainthood candidate to tell a story and write a
fictional account of it.

Without corroboration, it's fictional. Plain and simple.

Yep. All pretty convenient.

/BC

Hey, that's J Young your talking to. He has no principle, no pride, no
dignity, no honor, no decency and no moral.
And you're surprised?
.

Page 1 of 1

Post reply

General says 'Christian army' fights Satan, Muslims worship 'idol'
God put Bush in charge, says the general hunting bin Laden
Re: Jesus freak general's stupid remarks? He now sez he's sorry.
OT: Ex-Iraqi general dies in US custody
College Students More Conservative Than General Public.
OT: General Tubman
Solicitor General will participate in oral arguments in the Pledge case
Conditional probability and abductive inference in favor of a general theist position (or a Bayesian approach to the argument to design)

Gould: Is a new and general theory of evolution emerging?
OT: Israeli attorney general warns of barrier sanctions
General Tommy Frank Calls The NeoCob Chickenshit As They Are
-Attorney General John Ashcroft Resigns!
Re: Jefferson's General Religion.
OT: This war needs the right general
OT: Auf Wiedersen, General Burkhalter