Jos Flachs <'wcruise'@ksc15.th.com> wrote in message news:<tjbe80pqcrl0p2kklnqhrlnrellthqgsmi@4ax.com>...

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:51:54 -0400, Jim Warren
<jmwarren@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:

I enjoy arguing with the neo cons on alt.fan.rush-limbaugh.

One of the ditto heads stated that through out history Christians
killed 100,000 to 1,000,0000 people max.

10.000.000 is probably an understatement. Persecution of 'unbelievers'
(being the wrong type of christians) took a lot more. Several vicious
religious wars ravaged Europe. Persecution of witches claimed at least
a million victims.

I thought even the wiccans were only claiming 50,000 to
100,000 - or are there people pushing this figure into
the stratosphere as well?

The crusades I don't even mention, nor the conquest
of America - which close to exterminated the indian population.

Though the vast majority of those deaths were due to diseases...
the europeans of the time had no idea how diseases spread,
it can't be said they deliberately wiped out the population
of the Americas.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:58:39 GMT, W. Syme
<Winston.Syme.superstitions@fastmail.fm> wrote:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:51:54 -0400, Jim Warren
<jmwarren@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:

I enjoy arguing with the neo cons on alt.fan.rush-limbaugh.

One of the ditto heads stated that through out history Christians
killed 100,000 to 1,000,0000 people max.

That seems an incredibly hard to back up. Either he's made it up, or
he's a genius. I'm guessing the former.

Those numbers seem to be on the small side to me; however, such a
proposition is not that absurd. You have to understand that
population grows exponentially so that back in 1000 AD entire cities
could be wiped out and it wouldn't be as many people as, say, the one
stray bomb in a large city today.

So, I think that it is a situation where whatever the actual numbers
are, they may well sort of show such a relationship (though these
sound embellished). Nevertheless, had the same things happenned in
this day and age (or during Stalin's or Hitler's day), the Christian
body count would have been much higher.

He also stated that Hitler was not Christian but worshipped Norse
gods. I disagreed and said why did Hitler spend so much time and
effort looking for the Holy Grail, Spear of Longinus, and The Ark of
the covenant, which would have no significance to pagans. Was Hitler a
Christian?

Sounds like spinning.

Google gives among others these:

"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations
for
compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient
world, but
in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own
doctrine."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance
with the will of the Almighty Creator."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 46]

I think that Rosenberg was the real pagan. I think paganism was
somewhat marginally part of the nazi party philosophy, but I don't
think that the Nazis were particularly religious about anything,
including hitler. Oh, you'll be able to find quotes one way and
another and even big time displays, but I don't think it really means
anything.

He also said that Joseph Stalin an atheist killed 250,000 a week.
Was Stalin an atheist?

Probably. He said so, at least.

Yeah, 250k a week for a couple weeks. It must have been (would have
to have been) much less after that, although it put Hitler to shame
and was perhaps more than all the slaughtering the Christians did in
1000AD back when there were only a few million people in the entire
world in the first place.

If Hitler made a genuine act of contrition would he not be allowed
into heaven according to the bible?

Depends what variety of xianity we're dealing with.

I will say this about this sort of argument. First of all, you cannot
throw Hitler into this since the Nazis if nonChristian, certainly
weren't atheists. I do think it is legitimate to talk about Stalin,
even though he did not murder "in the name of atheism". No one has
ever murdered "in the name of theism" either. They all murder in the
name of their particular ideology. In Stalin's case, it was in teh
name of Communism, part and parcel of which was his atheism. So, I do
think that it is a legitimate example of atheists acting badly as any
particular one for Christians. (And, atheism is a very strong part of
Marx's "dialectical *materialism*" as espoused by the Marxist
Leninists such as Stalin.) And you can make all the same arguments
about it actually just being personal self-serving and not truly inthe
name of communism for the Christians as well.

So, I guess basically, I think that going around either saying how
"bad" Christianity is or how "bad" atheism is are both somewhat
hypocritical and short-sighted. Big atrocities have happened and can
happen under both a religious as well as an atheistic banner. And the
religious aspects of the views can play as big a role under atheistic
doctrines as they do under theist ones, not the least of which being
the rejection of religion/philosophy for science, and tryign to
inappropriately apply science to social issues. Such was a good
example of what happened, for instance, under the Nazis. Many
atheists are atheists because of their broader science oriented
worldview. If that worldview gets taken too far, then it could very
well lead to atrocities and tyranny.

Hello

just recently I did a little survey among survivers of Hitler`s empire,
friends and family members aged 80 and older, all living in Germany.
I asked them about their personal experience with the relationship between
the churches and the nazi regime.
They were students, Work-Service members, HJ leaders and young soldiers
in those days, most of them rather brainwashed by the well controlled
schools and HJ oranisation (HJ : Hitlerjugend).

Qustion 1: Was there any prosecution of the big churches known to you?
Most said no, they only heard about some examples after the war.
One person reported he had listened to a "shepherd's letter" issued
by Bishop v. Galen of Muenster read in church, in which the bishop
accused the nazi regime of closing monasteries and other church activities.
But he said, that didn't impress him or his friends, they moved to the back
seats of the church, so they didn't understand the next letter.
Others reported the churches seemed to support the nazi regime in different
ways, as there is no strict separation between church and state in Europe.

Question 2: Did you hear anything about neo-pagan religeon promotion?
Most said no, only after all was over. They thought they lived in an
all-Christian world in those days.
There were two exeptions: One person attended a Waffen-SS recruiting
and screening camp (they didn't accept him), and in this camp he learned
about the pseudo-religeous ideology of "blood and soil", which was
cultivated in the SS.
Another person, his father was a party member, left the church when
he became a soldier of the Luftwaffe, but he never became a pagan.

Question 3: Did you notice any resistance from church members against
the nazi regime?
Nobody reported of any experience of resistance from the churches,
but 2 people knew about acts of resistance by socialists or communists.

Question 4: In retrospect, do you think the nazi regime had a consistent
plan on how to deal with the Christian churches? (I only discussed that
with 2 people)
The answer was a clear no!
This probably is the reason why there are so different theories on
this matter: All are right, there simply was no strategy of the nazi
regime in this field, different nazi leaders had different
agendas.

If you are interested in more details, please tell me, I could
go on and on.

From: Wieland the Smith <

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 9:51:54 -0500, Jim Warren wrote
(in message <792d801v28lgorunv6db7kjvd5qfa4p6h9@4ax.com>):

From: Jim Warren <jmwarren@pilot.msu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism

I enjoy arguing with the neo cons on alt.fan.rush-limbaugh.

One of the ditto heads stated that through out history Christians killed
100,000 to 1,000,0000 people max.

He also stated that Hitler was not Christian but worshipped Norse gods. I
disagreed and said why did Hitler spend so much time and effort looking
for the Holy Grail, Spear of Longinus, and The Ark of the covenant, which
would have no significance to pagans. Was Hitler a Christian?

He also said that Joseph Stalin an atheist killed 250,000 a week. Was
Stalin an atheist?

If Hitler made a genuine act of contrition would he not be allowed into
heaven according to the bible?

Hitler was a Roman Catholic, born, baptized, lived and died one.

Hitler did not kill one person in the name of "atheism." Nor for that
matter did Stalin. Stalin killed anyone who disagreed with him or who
might be in disagreement with his policies. (Stalin was trained in the
seminary, so he would have known just how religion could/and had been used
as a point of political disagreement over the centuries.)

Communism (under Stalin) was officially "atheistic," however many
Communists were/are very theistic. Many of the South American communists
for example. But again those killed by Stalin, and other Communists, were
not killed for being theists, but for being (perceived) dangers to the
power of the state.

Hello

just recently I did a little survey among survivers of Hitler`s empire,
friends and family members aged 80 and older, all living in Germany.
I asked them about their personal experience with the relationship between
the churches and the nazi regime.
They were students, Work-Service members, HJ leaders and young soldiers
in those days, most of them rather brainwashed by the well controlled
schools and HJ oranisation (HJ : Hitlerjugend).

Qustion 1: Was there any prosecution of the big churches known to you?
Most said no, they only heard about some examples after the war.
One person reported he had listened to a "shepherd's letter" issued
by Bishop v. Galen of Muenster read in church, in which the bishop
accused the nazi regime of closing monasteries and other church activities.
But he said, that didn't impress him or his friends, they moved to the back
seats of the church, so they didn't understand the next letter.
Others reported the churches seemed to support the nazi regime in different
ways, as there is no strict separation between church and state in Europe.

Question 2: Did you hear anything about neo-pagan religeon promotion?
Most said no, only after all was over. They thought they lived in an
all-Christian world in those days.
There were two exeptions: One person attended a Waffen-SS recruiting
and screening camp (they didn't accept him), and in this camp he learned
about the pseudo-religeous ideology of "blood and soil", which was
cultivated in the SS.
Another person, his father was a party member, left the church when
he became a soldier of the Luftwaffe, but he never became a pagan.

Question 3: Did you notice any resistance from church members against
the nazi regime?
Nobody reported of any experience of resistance from the churches,
but 2 people knew about acts of resistance by socialists or communists.

Question 4: In retrospect, do you think the nazi regime had a consistent
plan on how to deal with the Christian churches? (I only discussed that
with 2 people)
The answer was a clear no!
This probably is the reason why there are so different theories on
this matter: All are right, there simply was no strategy of the nazi
regime in this field, different nazi leaders had different
agendas.

If you are interested in more details, please tell me, I could
go on and on.

Harry F. Leopold wrote:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 9:51:54 -0500, Jim Warren wrote
(in message <792d801v28lgorunv6db7kjvd5qfa4p6h9@4ax.com>):

From: Jim Warren <jmwarren@pilot.msu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism

I enjoy arguing with the neo cons on alt.fan.rush-limbaugh.

One of the ditto heads stated that through out history Christians killed
100,000 to 1,000,0000 people max.

He also stated that Hitler was not Christian but worshipped Norse gods. I
disagreed and said why did Hitler spend so much time and effort looking
for the Holy Grail, Spear of Longinus, and The Ark of the covenant, which
would have no significance to pagans. Was Hitler a Christian?

He also said that Joseph Stalin an atheist killed 250,000 a week. Was
Stalin an atheist?

If Hitler made a genuine act of contrition would he not be allowed into
heaven according to the bible?

Hitler was a Roman Catholic, born, baptized, lived and died one.

Hitler did not kill one person in the name of "atheism." Nor for that
matter did Stalin. Stalin killed anyone who disagreed with him or who
might be in disagreement with his policies. (Stalin was trained in the
seminary, so he would have known just how religion could/and had been used
as a point of political disagreement over the centuries.)

Communism (under Stalin) was officially "atheistic," however many
Communists were/are very theistic. Many of the South American communists
for example. But again those killed by Stalin, and other Communists, were
not killed for being theists, but for being (perceived) dangers to the
power of the state.

Hello

just recently I did a little survey among survivers of Hitler`s empire,
friends and family members aged 80 and older, all living in Germany.
I asked them about their personal experience with the relationship between
the churches and the nazi regime.
They were students, Work-Service members, HJ leaders and young soldiers
in those days, most of them rather brainwashed by the well controlled
schools and HJ oranisation (HJ : Hitlerjugend).

Qustion 1: Was there any prosecution of the big churches known to you?
Most said no, they only heard about some examples after the war.
One person reported he had listened to a "shepherd's letter" issued
by Bishop v. Galen of Muenster read in church, in which the bishop
accused the nazi regime of closing monasteries and other church activities.
But he said, that didn't impress him or his friends, they moved to the back
seats of the church, so they didn't understand the next letter.
Others reported the churches seemed to support the nazi regime in different
ways, as there is no strict separation between church and state in Europe.

Question 2: Did you hear anything about neo-pagan religeon promotion?
Most said no, only after all was over. They thought they lived in an
all-Christian world in those days.
There were two exeptions: One person attended a Waffen-SS recruiting
and screening camp (they didn't accept him), and in this camp he learned
about the pseudo-religeous ideology of "blood and soil", which was
cultivated in the SS.
Another person, his father was a party member, left the church when
he became a soldier of the Luftwaffe, but he never became a pagan.

Question 3: Did you notice any resistance from church members against
the nazi regime?
Nobody reported of any experience of resistance from the churches,
but 2 people knew about acts of resistance by socialists or communists.

Question 4: In retrospect, do you think the nazi regime had a consistent
plan on how to deal with the Christian churches? (I only discussed that
with 2 people)
The answer was a clear no!
This probably is the reason why there are so different theories on
this matter: All are right, there simply was no strategy of the nazi
regime in this field, different nazi leaders had different
agendas.

If you are interested in more details, please tell me, I could
go on and on.