| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"wbarwell" |
| Date: |
31 Aug 2004 04:06:11 AM |
| Object: |
holy institute of marriage? |
We hear a lot of silly babble from the religous far right
about how holy marriage is. Is it? In Exodus, god
meets Moses on the mount and hands down laws, of
which there are some 623 spread out in Exodus,
Numbers, Leviticus, and Deteronomy. Having heard
more bilge from the RR in New York for the GOP convention,
out of curiosity I got out my Cruden's Concordance and
looked up the most holy sacrement of marriage to see
what God had to say on that institution.
********************************************
Marriage is used ONCE in the Torah, in
Exodus 21:10.
If a man sells his daughtery into concubinage and
the man who marries her takes another wife, the
fisrt slave wife shall not have her marriage rights
or the amount of food and clothing diminished.
That is the only mention of "marriage" in the Torah.
Correct! That is the ONLY mention of that word
in the laws of Moses!
Marriages, plural. -
Deuteronomy 7:3
Israelites are not to make marriges with Hivites,
Hittites, Canaanite, Perizzites, Ammonites, Amorites
or Girgashites.
Joshua 23:13
If the Israelites make marriages among their enemies,
the Lord will cease to drive these enemy nations out before
the Israelites.
Married -
Exodus 21:3
An Israelite slave remains a slave only 6 years and is free.
If married, his wife is free also.
Numbers 12:1
Moses had married an Ethiopian woman, Miriam,
who becomes a leper.
Leviticus 22:12
A priest's daughter married to a stranger may
not eat of the offering table.
Numbers 36:3 - 11
If a woman marries a man outside her tribe,
to a member of another Israelite tribe, her
inheritance from her tribe moves to the tribe
she marries into.
A number of such mnarriages is listed.
Deuteronomy 22:22
If a man is found to being lying with a married woman,
(adultery) they shall both be put to death.
*****************************************
The above is ALL that can be found in the Torah
on the matter and laws of marriage. YES, THIS IS ALL
OF IT! If marriage was such a big, holy deal to god, why
doesn't the old testament in the Laws of Moses reflect that?
THERE ARE ONLY 8 MENTIONS ON LAWS OF
MARRIAGE IN THE SUPPOSED LAWS OF MOSES,
AS GIVEN TO MOSES BY GOD HIMSELF!
ONLY 8!
Get out your concordances, and check me out here!
memorize that number 8 so you can mention that next time
you aregue with a gargling thumper braying how important
a holy sacrament mnmarriage is.
There is so little about marriage in the OT laws of Moses it
is most remarkable! Apparently, whoever edited this nonsense
didn't particularly think marriage was important at all!
Every thing in the OT, every one of Moses's laws on marriage,
can be written on half a sheet of paper, and its mainly rights
of slave women who are married and warnings not to marry
into non-Israelite marriages!
So when you hear some bleating, blathering, blowhard
right wing fanatic mewling that marriage was a godly
sanctioned holy sacrement, you know you have found an
abysmally, ignorant liar.
I knew the OT had little to say on marriage but after getting out a
concordance and looking at what the OT, the laws of Moses did have
to say, I about fell out my chair seeing how very, very little was in the
OT, in these so called Laws of Moses.
There is more in these laws regulating cattle than marriage!
These books go on and on about offerings and what is to be offered
for this or that, for pages and pages! But almost nothing on marriage!
After long years of cynical reading of biblical blather I thought nothing
in the OT could surprise me. I was wrong.
--
Senator Waxman's searchable database of iraq war lies.
www.house.gov/reform/min/features/iraq_on_the_record/
A good portal to more lies and Bush stupidity is to be found at
www.failureisimpossible.com - Go to the index and go to
"L" for lies. All you need to know about Bush when you
step into the voting booth. Bush is a liar and surrounds
himself with fellow liars.
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
31 Aug 2004 06:40:51 AM |
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"wbarwell" <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote
The above is ALL that can be found in the Torah
on the matter and laws of marriage. YES, THIS IS ALL
OF IT! If marriage was such a big, holy deal to god, why
doesn't the old testament in the Laws of Moses reflect that?
Catholics (Note: *Note* Protestants) consider marriage a
sacrament because it was at a wedding where Jesus first
performs a miracle, hence the obvious affection God has
for marriage... or at least that's the logic.
Anyway, the Protestants set all that aside during a little
something called "The Protestant Reformation." Marriage
was not to be considered a sacrament, and any & all of
these "Evangelical" Christians who pretend it is are either
really bad liars or complete nimrods who have no idea
what their own religious beliefs are.
By the way, though Catholics do still consider marriage
sacred (i.e. "a sacrament"), at no time have Catholics
had trouble distinguishing between RELIGIOUS and
SECULAR marriage.
What I mean by that is a Catholic married in the church
who goes to court and gets a divorce is still married in
the eyes of the church. If they get re-married (and the
only way that can happen is in a civil marriage), the church
won't recognize the new marriage. According to the church,
the Catholic would be committing adultery.
Okay, to sum up:
The majority of Americans are Protestants who do not
consider *Any* marriage to be "Sacred" as marriage
stopped being considered a sacrament in their eyes ways
back during the Protestant Reformation.
The Catholic church was already drawing lines between
"Religious" and "Secular" marriage long before anyone
went to court demanding the right for gay couples to get
married. It's not a new concept for them. In fact, it is one
that they themselves had been imposing on their followers
for many generations.
Oops, that was a bit wordy. Let me sum that up again:
Every last frigging "Christian" is lying when they pretend
that gay marriage -- or any marriage for that matter -- is in
conflict with their religion.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
31 Aug 2004 07:01:53 AM |
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JTEM wrote:
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote
The above is ALL that can be found in the Torah
on the matter and laws of marriage. YES, THIS IS ALL
OF IT! If marriage was such a big, holy deal to god, why
doesn't the old testament in the Laws of Moses reflect that?
Catholics (Note: *Note* Protestants) consider marriage a
sacrament because it was at a wedding where Jesus first
performs a miracle, hence the obvious affection God has
for marriage... or at least that's the logic.
Anyway, the Protestants set all that aside during a little
something called "The Protestant Reformation." Marriage
was not to be considered a sacrament, and any & all of
these "Evangelical" Christians who pretend it is are either
really bad liars or complete nimrods who have no idea
what their own religious beliefs are.
One thing I have noted over the years is that in ancient
societies, religion, while it may have religous and cultural
overtones to it, was first and foremost a legal contract.
The earliest written laws regulated such contracts and
similar contracts, and the earliest written materials
we have are mainly legal documents, including deeds
and marriage contracts.
The near utter lack of any rules for marriage in the
OT may very well reflect the fact that marriage was
probably for ancient Israeltes, following the way
things were done in that part of the world since
the time writing was invented, strictly legal
contracts with well developed models and rules
that simply didn't need explaining, that was how
everybody did them.
Both sides laid out their obligations and their
claims to property and dowries. The contract was
written up, read, agreed to by all parties in front
of witnesses and the contract sealed and stored
at the local temple or scribes library or similar
safe location.
I will probably do a New Testament list of marriage
'laws', there isn't much here either.
Most notably, Jesus forbade divorce except in cases of
fornication and adultery. he who marries someboody so
divorced commits adultery.
Marrige was depreciated as a necessary evil for the lustful.
All together, marry, marriage, married et al, I find about 78
mentions in the bible together. A number of them tales,
marriage of Moses to Miriam, Hamor asking Jacob
permission to marry his daughter and other minor tales.
Subtract that out and the 'laws' are somewhat less.
Even in the NT marriage is not really mentioned in
a sustained and explanantory fashion.
And even then, Jesus demands that people abandon
homes, wives, families and land to follow him.
Still, I am VERY surprised how little there is in the
Torah on marriage. A half page worth.
And that there is no mention of the concept of the basic
concept and the rules of such an institute as it was to be
done in Israelite society.
Don't marry into the listed enemy foreign nations, and slaves
who serve their 6 years take their woves with them.
Real applicable to 21st century America.
By the way, though Catholics do still consider marriage
sacred (i.e. "a sacrament"), at no time have Catholics
had trouble distinguishing between RELIGIOUS and
SECULAR marriage.
Yes, though they do play games with "annulments".
What I mean by that is a Catholic married in the church
who goes to court and gets a divorce is still married in
the eyes of the church. If they get re-married (and the
only way that can happen is in a civil marriage), the church
won't recognize the new marriage. According to the church,
the Catholic would be committing adultery.
Laws derived from the comments of Jesus, obviously.
Okay, to sum up:
The majority of Americans are Protestants who do not
consider *Any* marriage to be "Sacred" as marriage
stopped being considered a sacrament in their eyes ways
back during the Protestant Reformation.
The Catholic church was already drawing lines between
"Religious" and "Secular" marriage long before anyone
went to court demanding the right for gay couples to get
married. It's not a new concept for them. In fact, it is one
that they themselves had been imposing on their followers
for many generations.
Oops, that was a bit wordy. Let me sum that up again:
Every last frigging "Christian" is lying when they pretend
that gay marriage -- or any marriage for that matter -- is in
conflict with their religion.
And if the protestant Christians did agree with Jesus,
they need to stop getting divorced. Show us a little
leadership by good example.
Since adulterers are to be stoned, we should as a starter start
with stoning GOP House members and Senators that are known
to have been adulterers in the past.
I mean, if these clods are going to blather how we should respect
the bible when making law, we should ask those who are dead set on
forcing a ban on gay marriage in the name of the bible to also
uphold Levitucus 22:22 also. At least banish politicians who are proven
adulterers.
--
Senator Waxman's searchable database of iraq war lies.
www.house.gov/reform/min/features/iraq_on_the_record/
A good portal to more lies and Bush stupidity is to be found at
www.failureisimpossible.com - Go to the index and go to
"L" for lies. All you need to know about Bush when you
step into the voting booth. Bush is a liar and surrounds
himself with fellow liars.
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Lord Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
31 Aug 2004 08:47:32 PM |
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I mean, if these clods are going to blather how we should respect
the bible when making law, we should ask those who are dead set on
forcing a ban on gay marriage in the name of the bible to also
uphold Levitucus 22:22 also. At least banish politicians who are proven
adulterers.
If we did that, how would the Republicans keep their majority in congress?
On the other hand it certainly would greatly shrink the size of government,
something which used to be a Republican ideal but have abandoned in recent
years.
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Department of Applied Rattan Use
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking, which
leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy." - Robert Anton
Wilson
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
31 Aug 2004 05:32:22 PM |
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On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 05:06:11 -0400, wbarwell <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
We hear a lot of silly babble from the religous far right
about how holy marriage is. Is it? In Exodus, god
meets Moses on the mount and hands down laws, of
which there are some 623 spread out in Exodus,
Numbers, Leviticus, and Deteronomy.
Uh, noooooooo, God gave man 10 commandments. The rest of the 623 were developed by
mankind to use in order to figure out if people were honoring the 10.
You atheists really don't know diddly squat about God.
Better luck next time, barwell.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "Brad" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
01 Sep 2004 11:34:21 PM |
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duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message news:<ouu9j01p1cv6ketg6l11gnm2vui6jv1vip@4ax.com>...
We hear a lot of silly babble from the religous far right
about how holy marriage is. Is it? In Exodus, god
meets Moses on the mount and hands down laws, of
which there are some 623 spread out in Exodus,
Numbers, Leviticus, and Deteronomy.
Duke:
Uh, noooooooo, God gave man 10 commandments.
The rest of the 623 were developed by mankind to use in order to
figure out if people were honoring the 10.
You atheists really don't know diddly squat about God.
Lev 19 outlines various statutes/laws.
Some excerpts follow:
Lev 19:1-2,19,37
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say
unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.
Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a
diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither
shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.
Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and
do them: I am the LORD.
Specifically, demonstrate that the statutes which command no
interbreeding of animals, not to plant a field with two types of seed,
and not to wear clothing of mixed fabrics were developed by mankind
rather than being commands from God.
Deut 14 outlines statutes that deal with clean and unclean food, what
could be eaten and what could not be eaten.
Demonstrate that these regulations were developed by mankind and were
not given to Moses from God.
Num 5:11-31 outlines a trial by ordeal which used to determine if a
woman has committed adultery.
This procedure is defined as a law.
Specifically:
Num 5:29
This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another
instead of her husband, and is defiled;
Demonstrate that this law was developed by mankind rather than being
given to Moses by God.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
02 Sep 2004 05:52:54 PM |
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On 1 Sep 2004 21:34:21 -0700, (Brad) wrote:
Specifically, demonstrate that the statutes which command no
interbreeding of animals, not to plant a field with two types of seed,
and not to wear clothing of mixed fabrics were developed by mankind
rather than being commands from God.
Why would God be concerned with what kind of dress you wear, brad?
Deut 14 outlines statutes that deal with clean and unclean food, what
could be eaten and what could not be eaten.
Man-made rules.
Demonstrate that these regulations were developed by mankind and were
not given to Moses from God.
Why is pork forbidden? Answer - it doesn't chew the cud, and it doesn't have clefted
hooves. Why can't Jews eat scaled fish? (or is it vice versa). Why can't a Jew answer
the phone or the door on the Day of Atonement?
Why would God care?
They are manmade laws to control a bigger picture.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "Brad" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
02 Sep 2004 11:24:12 PM |
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duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message news:<jq8fj0p0i6dsj20l0hgmv3gkb7ra90go7r@4ax.com>...
On 1 Sep 2004 21:34:21 -0700, (Brad) wrote:
Specifically, demonstrate that the statutes which command no
interbreeding of animals, not to plant a field with two types of seed,
and not to wear clothing of mixed fabrics were developed by mankind
rather than being commands from God.
Duke:
Why would God be concerned with what kind of dress you wear, brad?
I'll remind you of your original assertion which stated:
"Uh, noooooooo, God gave man 10 commandments.
The rest of the 623 were developed by mankind to use in order to
figure out if people were honoring the 10.
You atheists really don't know diddly squat about God."
The issue wasn't why God would be concerned about a law.
The issue was where the law came from.
I'll ask you again to demonstrate that the laws from Lev 19 were
developed by mankind rather than being commands from God.
I'll restore a verse of the scripture that you snipped out.
Lev 19:37
Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and
do them: I am the LORD.
The text indicates that the statutes were from God. It's up to you to
show the text as being in error. Demonstrate that mankind is the
developer of the laws commanded in Lev 19.
Deut 14 outlines statutes that deal with clean and unclean food, what
could be eaten and what could not be eaten.
Duke:
Man-made rules.
Don't just assert that they're man-made rules.
Demonstrate it from the text in Deuteronomy.
Demonstrate that these regulations were developed by mankind and were
not given to Moses from God.
Duke:
Why is pork forbidden? Answer - it doesn't chew the cud, and it doesn't have clefted
hooves. Why can't Jews eat scaled fish? (or is it vice versa). Why can't a Jew answer
the phone or the door on the Day of Atonement?
You've ignored the issue.
The issue isn't why pork is forbidden.
The issue is for you to demonstrate that the food laws were developed
by mankind and were not commanded to Moses by God.
In the preamble to Deut 14 the Bible states:
Deut 12:28
Observe and hear all these words which I command thee, that it may go
well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever, when thou
doest that which is good and right in the sight of the LORD thy God.
Demonstrate from the text that the laws commanded in Deut were
developed by mankind instead of being directly from God.
Duke:
Why would God care?
Because it's what God requires of his people.
Lev 19:37
Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and
do them: I am the LORD.
Duke:
They are manmade laws to control a bigger picture.
Don't just assert that the laws in Lev 19 and Deut 14 are man-made.
The scripture doesn't indicate any such thing.
The scripture indicates that these laws came directly from God.
Demonstrate that the text is in error.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
03 Sep 2004 01:27:54 PM |
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On 2 Sep 2004 21:24:12 -0700, (Brad) wrote:
I'll remind you of your original assertion which stated:
"Uh, noooooooo, God gave man 10 commandments.
The rest of the 623 were developed by mankind to use in order to
figure out if people were honoring the 10.
You atheists really don't know diddly squat about God."
Yep.
The issue wasn't why God would be concerned about a law.
The issue was where the law came from.
Manmade. That's what I said.
I'll ask you again to demonstrate that the laws from Lev 19 were
developed by mankind rather than being commands from God.
I'll restore a verse of the scripture that you snipped out.
Lev 19:37
Don't have to. Look them over yourself.
Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and
do them: I am the LORD.
Yep, all 10.
The text indicates that the statutes were from God. It's up to you to
show the text as being in error. Demonstrate that mankind is the
developer of the laws commanded in Lev 19.
The text is not in error. Jews don't eat pork because of man made rules, not God's
rules.
Deut 14 outlines statutes that deal with clean and unclean food, what
could be eaten and what could not be eaten.
Man-made rules.
Don't just assert that they're man-made rules.
Demonstrate it from the text in Deuteronomy.
You figure it out. Why would God care if Jews ate pork when he subsequently well said to
eat anything in the meat market because it comes from God.
1 Corinthians 10
25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for,
"The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."
Why is pork forbidden? Answer - it doesn't chew the cud, and it doesn't have clefted
hooves. Why can't Jews eat scaled fish? (or is it vice versa). Why can't a Jew answer
the phone or the door on the Day of Atonement?
You've ignored the issue.
The issue isn't why pork is forbidden.
The issue is for you to demonstrate that the food laws were developed
by mankind and were not commanded to Moses by God.
I did. God told man to eat anything in the market without question of conscience.
That means the prohibition on pork came from somewhere's else, like man's words for
instance.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "Brad" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
03 Sep 2004 09:41:30 PM |
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brad:
I'll remind you of your original assertion which stated:
"Uh, noooooooo, God gave man 10 commandments.
The rest of the 623 were developed by mankind to use in order to
figure out if people were honoring the 10.
You atheists really don't know diddly squat about God."
duke:
Yep.
brad:
The issue wasn't why God would be concerned about a law.
The issue was where the law came from.
duke:
Manmade. That's what I said.
But you didn't demonstrate that the laws were manmade from the
scriptural text in Deut and Lev.
Apparently you deny that God gave the laws to Moses in Lev 19 and Deut
14.
(see further down in the post for further details on this point)
The Old Testament scripture contradicts your assertion.
brad:
I'll ask you again to demonstrate that the laws from Lev 19 were
developed by mankind rather than being commands from God.
I'll restore a verse of the scripture that you snipped out.
Lev 19:37
duke:
Don't have to. Look them over yourself.
But telling me you don't have to and to look at them myself doesn't
demonstrate anything.
I've already looked them over several times and have provided them for
you to examine as valid instructions from God.
You're the one who claims that the laws given in Lev 19 are manmade.
The scripture says otherwise.
They came directly from God as spoken to Moses.
Either you believe what the Bible says or you don't.
From your response further down in this post, it appears that you
consider Deut 14 and Lev 19 to be invalid scripture.
brad:
Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and
do them: I am the LORD.
duke:
Yep, all 10.
There are far more than 10 statutes given in Deuteronomy and
Leviticus.
Lev chapter 19 begins with:
"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,"
This is God giving instructions to Moses.
There is nothing in the text that states mankind developed the laws.
There are many statutes commanded by God in Lev 19 and there are 3 of
them in one verse. I'll cite it again:
Lev 19:19
Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a
diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither
shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.
None of these 3 statutes are included on the 10 commandments tablets.
These are additional laws that were given by God to Moses.
brad:
The text indicates that the statutes were from God. It's up to you to
show the text as being in error. Demonstrate that mankind is the
developer of the laws commanded in Lev 19.
duke:
The text is not in error. Jews don't eat pork because of man made rules, not God's rules.
If the text isn't in error then the laws given in Lev 19 were not
developed by mankind as you claimed.
If the text is accurate then the laws came from God.
You however, say they are manmade.
You've got a contradiction to reconcile.
brad:
Deut 14 outlines statutes that deal with clean and unclean food, what
could be eaten and what could not be eaten.
duke
Man-made rules.
brad:
Don't just assert that they're man-made rules.
Demonstrate it from the text in Deuteronomy.
duke:
You figure it out. Why would God care if Jews ate pork when he subsequently well said to eat anything in the meat market because it comes from God.
Ok, you've made it clear to me that you aren't going to demonstrate
anything from the text in Deuteronomy or Leviticus that backs up your
claim.
Apparently it's your position that the laws given in Deut 14 and Lev
19 never really came from God but were manmade.
Do you think Moses made them up?
When did you come to realize that the Old Testament scripture was
corrupted by a writer who falsely attributed the laws in Deut 14 and
Lev 19 to God?
duke:
1 Corinthians 10
25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for,
"The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."
This contradicts God's commands from both Lev 11 and Deut 14.
Lev 11:1,7-8
And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them,
And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he
cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.
Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch;
they are unclean to you.
Lev 11 clearly shows that God commanded that the Jews not eat pork.
Why do you believe that the Old Testament is corrupted and the New
Testament is valid?
What if 1 Cor 10 is corrupted scripture that doesn't reflect God's
word?
What if it's the projection of a writer who wanted to promote a new
religion, one that didn't involve the work of obeying God's laws?
duke
Why is pork forbidden? Answer - it doesn't chew the cud, and it doesn't have clefted
hooves. Why can't Jews eat scaled fish? (or is it vice versa). Why can't a Jew answer
the phone or the door on the Day of Atonement?
brad
You've ignored the issue.
The issue isn't why pork is forbidden.
The issue is for you to demonstrate that the food laws were developed
by mankind and were not commanded to Moses by God.
duke:
I did. God told man to eat anything in the market without question of conscience.
So far you've completely ignored the fact that the scripture in Lev 19
and Deut 14 show God as giving various laws to Moses.
Lev 11 also shows the food law commands coming directly from God.
You haven't yet demonstrated from the text of Deuteronomy or Leviticus
that the laws given in those books are manmade.
What you have done is rather limited.
You've simply claimed that a New Testament verse overrides God's
previous instructions to Moses.
You've also concluded that the laws given in Lev 19, Lev 11, and Deut
14, didn't really come from God but were manmade.
You haven't offered any support whatsoever for that conclusion
however.
That's all you've done so far.
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
05 Sep 2004 02:44:22 PM |
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On 3 Sep 2004 19:41:30 -0700, (Brad) wrote:
But you didn't demonstrate that the laws were manmade from the
scriptural text in Deut and Lev.
Not all things written down in the bible are the word of God.
Apparently you deny that God gave the laws to Moses in Lev 19 and Deut
14.
(see further down in the post for further details on this point)
The Old Testament scripture contradicts your assertion.
God gave Moses the 10 commandments. Twice.
But telling me you don't have to and to look at them myself doesn't
demonstrate anything.
Not my problem.
I've already looked them over several times and have provided them for
you to examine as valid instructions from God.
I've already commented.
You're the one who claims that the laws given in Lev 19 are manmade.
The scripture says otherwise.
They came directly from God as spoken to Moses.
Either you believe what the Bible says or you don't.
From your response further down in this post, it appears that you
consider Deut 14 and Lev 19 to be invalid scripture.
It's just not a Christian thing.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "Brad" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
05 Sep 2004 11:53:31 PM |
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duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message news:<ckqmj05lt8c524hi456ukn6orvf99jte1f@4ax.com>...
On 3 Sep 2004 19:41:30 -0700, (Brad) wrote:
But you didn't demonstrate that the laws were manmade from the
scriptural text in Deut and Lev.
Not all things written down in the bible are the word of God.
Ok, I see. Only some parts of it are the word of God.
But telling me you don't have to and to look at them myself doesn't
demonstrate anything.
Not my problem.
If that's the case, it renders your theological assertions to be
personal speculations.
That also means when you say atheists don't know anything about God,
you really mean that atheists don't know anything about your
personalized version of God.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
06 Sep 2004 08:05:50 AM |
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On 5 Sep 2004 21:53:31 -0700, (Brad) wrote:
Not all things written down in the bible are the word of God.
Ok, I see. Only some parts of it are the word of God.
There's lots of things in the bible - there's some geography, some history, some
archeology, some math, some cooking techniques, etc.
But telling me you don't have to and to look at them myself doesn't
demonstrate anything.
Not my problem.
If that's the case, it renders your theological assertions to be
personal speculations.
No, there's been teaching on the subject for thousands of years. I wan't there, but I
learn from many, many that have studied these things thoroughly.
That also means when you say atheists don't know anything about God,
you really mean that atheists don't know anything about your
personalized version of God.
No, they don't know anything about God, or they wouldn't be atheists. That would be
spiritual suicide.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
01 Sep 2004 02:13:53 AM |
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duke wrote:
On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 05:06:11 -0400, wbarwell
<wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
We hear a lot of silly babble from the religous far right
about how holy marriage is. Is it? In Exodus, god
meets Moses on the mount and hands down laws, of
which there are some 623 spread out in Exodus,
Numbers, Leviticus, and Deteronomy.
Uh, noooooooo, God gave man 10 commandments. The rest of the 623 were
developed by mankind to use in order to figure out if people were honoring
the 10.
This is so utterly, totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand,
what does the bible actually say about marriage, thay you can
only be called brain damaged.
There is no god and god gave us nothing, it is the stupid ramblings
of deeply ignorant billy goat herder priests. So stupid were they, that
they went on and on and on page after page in minute detail how the
tabernacle was to be constructed and the priests holy costumes, and
page after page on what was to be sacrificed and how and what was teh
priests portions, left out everything to do with marriage.
Rather that show any interest in this bizarre oversight, you ***** out an
utterly irrelevant and deeply stupidly irrelevant rant that has nothing
at all to do with the fact that the bibnle does not show marriage to be a
deeply holy ceremony of great concern to god who supposedly hande these
613 laws in the OT to Moses.
Ther are 8 pathetic anmd irrelevant laws, mostly to do with not
intermarrying with surrounding Canaanitic peoples and rights
of slaves and inheritances in inter-tribal marriages.
Other than that, the bible takes no notice whatsoever about
marriage at all, contradicting the hysterical squawllings of
deeply ignorant and malicious religous 'leaders' and their
***** political friends in the GOP as tp teh place of marriuiage in
religion.
You not only know nothing about god, which as I showed
you, cannot exist, and you most certainly know nothing about
the bible, or for that matter, anything worth taking notice of.
Like most pathetic and deeply stupid religous fanatics, you
are amazing ignorant and incapable of rational thought.
Amazing how the Laws of god handed to Moses
take almost no notice at all of the concept and regulation
of the institute of marrige.
While making clear that the Israelites were to do a lot of
sacrificing and the priests werre going to do a lot of eating of
sacrificial meat.
Tells us a lot about who wrote this stinking crop and where
their priorities lay.
A 2800 year old con job.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
01 Sep 2004 05:52:00 PM |
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On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 03:13:53 -0400, wbarwell <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Uh, noooooooo, God gave man 10 commandments. The rest of the 623 were
developed by mankind to use in order to figure out if people were honoring
the 10.
This is so utterly, totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand,
what does the bible actually say about marriage, thay you can
only be called brain damaged.
Than you read the 623 laws for yourself. An example - as the Jew was mandated to avoid
work on the Sabbath, a definition had to be developed to define "work". They settled on
the equivalent of carrying 3 fig leaves one mile. A man made law.
There is no god and god gave us nothing, it is the stupid ramblings
of deeply ignorant billy goat herder priests.
Ohhhhhh, I see. Can you offer up even on reason to support there is no God??
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
01 Sep 2004 11:13:12 AM |
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duke wrote:
On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 05:06:11 -0400, wbarwell <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
We hear a lot of silly babble from the religous far right
about how holy marriage is. Is it? In Exodus, god
meets Moses on the mount and hands down laws, of
which there are some 623 spread out in Exodus,
Numbers, Leviticus, and Deteronomy.
Uh, noooooooo, God gave man 10 commandments.
As 'God' doesn't exist, how could he give man anything ?
The rest of the 623 were developed by
mankind to use in order to figure out if people were honoring the 10.
You atheists really don't know diddly squat about God.
No-one does....or could....as he doesn't exist.
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
Skype ID callto://hellward
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
02 Sep 2004 05:48:18 PM |
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On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:13:12 +0100, Jez <iced_spear@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
Uh, noooooooo, God gave man 10 commandments.
As 'God' doesn't exist, how could he give man anything ?
He does, as all evidence demands.
The rest of the 623 were developed by
mankind to use in order to figure out if people were honoring the 10.
You atheists really don't know diddly squat about God.
No-one does....or could....as he doesn't exist.
Yeah, sure, jez.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
03 Sep 2004 03:57:57 AM |
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duke wrote:
On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:13:12 +0100, Jez <iced_spear@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com>
wrote:
Uh, noooooooo, God gave man 10 commandments.
As 'God' doesn't exist, how could he give man anything ?
He does, as all evidence demands.
Evidence proves god cannot possibly exist.
As I have demonstrated conclusively.
God is a failed concept.
God is a stupid concept for stupid people.
The rest of the 623 were developed by
mankind to use in order to figure out if people
were honoring the 10.
You atheists really don't know diddly squat about God.
No-one does....or could....as he doesn't exist.
Yeah, sure, jez.
Many of these 623 laws are stupid in th extreme.
And have nothing to do with the 10 commandments.
And god gave us nothing, any more than the tooth fairy
gave us anything.
I note that you dumbasses refuse to follow the laws
your supposed christ gave you.
Sell all you hath and give to the poor.
--
Bush added $2 trillion in national debt in three years. The
biggest addition of national debt of any president. There are
280 million Americans. That is $3,333 per American, $13,332
For a family of four. Bush wants to make the tax cuts that are
generating these vast debts permanent.Vote Kerry, we cannot
afford more massive debt.
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
03 Sep 2004 01:18:56 PM |
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On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 04:57:57 -0400, wbarwell <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
He does, as all evidence demands.
Evidence proves god cannot possibly exist.
As I have demonstrated conclusively.
A six year old can see the holes in your silliness.
God is a failed concept.
God is a stupid concept for stupid people.
And you will stand before him one moment after you die for the things you did while in the
flesh. Best of luck. You'll need luck - your record doesn't look too good.
Many of these 623 laws are stupid in th extreme.
And have nothing to do with the 10 commandments.
Sure they do. They were generated by mankind to use to judge if mankind was honoring the
10 commandments. One simply can't have commandments if there is no way to measure the
success at keeping them holy.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
03 Sep 2004 02:29:50 PM |
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duke wrote:
On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 04:57:57 -0400, wbarwell
<wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
He does, as all evidence demands.
Evidence proves god cannot possibly exist.
As I have demonstrated conclusively.
A six year old can see the holes in your silliness.
No, you simply refuse to be rational about it is all.
You'd rather be superstitous than right.
Well, you lose.
I can prove it but I can't make you rational.
God is a failed concept.
God is a stupid concept for stupid people.
And you will stand before him one moment after you die for the things you
No, no more than I will deal with teh Tooth Fairy for my sins.
Many of these 623 laws are stupid in the extreme.
And have nothing to do with the 10 commandments.
Sure they do.
No, they don't. The three pages on how the priests are to
cur elepers and lengthy laws on how animal sacrufices are done
silly ad have nothing to do with then commandments for example.
The long list of ***** laws about how teh tabernacle is to be built and
where to use badger skins and how many loops at the top of the
curtains is goofy and has nothing to do with the 10 commandments.
Anybody who has read these miserable books knows its utter
***** and its gratingly stupid.
All this ***** an yet, almost nothing about marriage as I point out.
Obviously, it was writen by priests and not very smart ones
at that.
Anybody who actually reads this crap with a brain engaged knows it
too.
Exodus 21:4 tells how an man can sell his daughter into
concubinage. Yeah, that has a lot to do with the 10 commandments
you dumb *****.
--
Bush added $2 trillion in national debt in three years. The
biggest addition of national debt of any president. There are
280 million Americans. That is $3,333 per American, $13,332
For a family of four. Bush wants to make the tax cuts that are
generating these vast debts permanent.Vote Kerry, we cannot
afford more massive debt.
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
03 Sep 2004 04:00:33 PM |
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On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 15:29:50 -0400, wbarwell <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
A six year old can see the holes in your silliness.
No, you simply refuse to be rational about it is all.
Oh, so the gigantic holes in your argument is my fault - now, how about that.
You'd rather be superstitous than right.
Well, you lose.
I AM right.
I can prove it but I can't make you rational.
You can't prove anything, and haven't yet.
And you will stand before him one moment after you die for the things you
No, no more than I will deal with teh Tooth Fairy for my sins.
You pay your money, you take your chance.
Many of these 623 laws are stupid in the extreme.
And have nothing to do with the 10 commandments.
Sure they do.
No, they don't. The three pages on how the priests are to
cur elepers and lengthy laws on how animal sacrufices are done
silly ad have nothing to do with then commandments for example.
The long list of ***** laws about how teh tabernacle is to be built and
where to use badger skins and how many loops at the top of the
curtains is goofy and has nothing to do with the 10 commandments.
As I said, all directed back towards the 10 commandments.
All this ***** an yet, almost nothing about marriage as I point out.
Oh, a very key statement about marriage.
Obviously, it was writen by priests and not very smart ones
at that.
By Jesus, the High Priest.
Anybody who actually reads this crap with a brain engaged knows it
too.
I sense an electrical short between your brain and your keyboard.
Exodus 21:4 tells how an man can sell his daughter into
concubinage. Yeah, that has a lot to do with the 10 commandments
you dumb *****.
Like I said, man-made laws.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "W=Waffler" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
03 Sep 2004 10:33:22 AM |
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duke wrote:
On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:13:12 +0100, Jez <iced_spear@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
Uh, noooooooo, God gave man 10 commandments.
As 'God' doesn't exist, how could he give man anything ?
He does, as all evidence demands.
The rest of the 623 were developed by
mankind to use in order to figure out if people were honoring the 10.
You atheists really don't know diddly squat about God.
No-one does....or could....as he doesn't exist.
Yeah, sure, jez.
With that "jez" you're being disrespectful of and perhaps blasphemous to
your "personal" savior!
James
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| User: "Carl Funk" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
01 Sep 2004 03:23:51 PM |
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wbarwell <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote in
news:41344c6e$0$170$811e409b@news.mylinuxisp.com:
We hear a lot of silly babble from the religous far right
about how holy marriage is. Is it? In Exodus, god
meets Moses on the mount and hands down laws, of
which there are some 623 spread out in Exodus,
Numbers, Leviticus, and Deteronomy. Having heard
more bilge from the RR in New York for the GOP convention,
out of curiosity I got out my Cruden's Concordance and
looked up the most holy sacrement of marriage to see
what God had to say on that institution.
<snip list>
Let me play Devil's Advocate here, and point out the major
example you missed. (Actually, I guess I'm God's Advocate in
this case.)
Marriage is based on the pairing God did in the Garden of
Eden, creating Eve to be the perfect helper for Adam.
Clearly, marriage is supposed to be the union of one man and
one woman.
--
Carl Funk
a.a atheist #1229
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: holy institute of marriage? |
31 Aug 2004 06:31:15 AM |
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wbarwell wrote:
We hear a lot of silly babble from the religous far right
about how holy marriage is. Is it? In Exodus, god
meets Moses on the mount and hands down laws, of
which there are some 623 spread out in Exodus,
Numbers, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy. Having heard
more bilge from the RR in New York for the GOP convention,
out of curiosity I got out my Cruden's Concordance and
looked up the most holy sacrement of marriage to see
what God had to say on that institution.
********************************************
Marriage is used ONCE in the Torah, in
Exodus 21:10.
If a man sells his daughtery into concubinage and
the man who marries her takes another wife, the
first slave wife shall not have her marriage rights
or the amount of food and clothing she recives from
her husband diminished.
That is the only mention of "marriage" in the Torah.
Correct! That is the ONLY mention of that word
in the laws of Moses!
Marriages, plural. -
Deuteronomy 7:3
Israelites are not to make marriges with Hivites,
Hittites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Ammonites, Amorites
or Girgashites.
Joshua 23:13
If the Israelites make marriages among their enemies,
the Lord will cease to drive these enemy nations out before
the Israelites.
Married -
Exodus 21:3
An Israelite slave remains a slave only 6 years and is free.
If married, his wife is free also.
Numbers 12:1
Moses had married an Ethiopian woman, Miriam,
who becomes a leper.
Leviticus 22:12
A priest's daughter married to a stranger may
not eat of the offering table.
Numbers 36:3 - 11
If a woman marries a man outside her tribe,
to a member of another Israelite tribe, her
inheritance from her tribe moves to the tribe
she marries into.
A number of such marriages is listed.
Deuteronomy 22:22
If a man is found to being lying with a married woman,
(adultery) they shall both be put to death.
*****************************************
I left out one!
Marry -
25:5
If brothers live together and one dies without children,
the surviving brother must perform sex with his widow
to give his dead brother descendents.
We still only have 8 laws on marriage as
Numbers 12 is a tale about Moses's wife and
has nothing really to do about laws on marriage!
And few of the mentions have anything useful
to us today, we don't have slaves and don't have any
Cannanites or Hivites among us.
Stoning adulterers would leave our Congress
and many churches unpopulated.
The above is ALL that can be found in the Torah
on the matter and laws of marriage. YES, THIS IS ALL
OF IT! If marriage was such a big, holy deal to god, why
doesn't the old testament in the Laws of Moses reflect that?
THERE ARE ONLY 8 MENTIONS ON LAWS OF
MARRIAGE IN THE SUPPOSED LAWS OF MOSES,
AS GIVEN TO MOSES BY GOD HIMSELF!
ONLY 8!
Get out your concordances, and check me out here!
memorize that number 8 so you can mention that next time
you argue with a gargling thumper braying how important
a holy sacrament marriage is.
There is so little about marriage in the OT laws of Moses it
is most remarkable! Apparently, whoever edited this nonsense
didn't particularly think marriage was important at all!
Every thing in the OT, every one of Moses's laws on marriage,
can be written on half a sheet of paper, and its mainly rights
of slave women who are married and warnings not to marry
into non-Israelite marriages!
So when you hear some bleating, blathering, blowhard
right wing fanatic mewling that marriage was a godly
sanctioned holy sacrement, you know you have found an
abysmally, ignorant liar.
I knew the OT had little to say on marriage but after getting out a
concordance and looking at what the OT, the laws of Moses did have
to say, I about fell out my chair seeing how very, very little was in the
OT, in these so called Laws of Moses.
There is more in these laws regulating cattle than marriage!
These books go on and on about offerings and what is to be offered
for this or that, for pages and pages! But almost nothing on marriage!
After long years of cynical reading of biblical blather I thought nothing
in the OT could surprise me. I was wrong.
--
Senator Waxman's searchable database of iraq war lies.
www.house.gov/reform/min/features/iraq_on_the_record/
A good portal to more lies and Bush stupidity is to be found at
www.failureisimpossible.com - Go to the index and go to
"L" for lies. All you need to know about Bush when you
step into the voting booth. Bush is a liar and surrounds
himself with fellow liars.
Cheerful Charlie
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