HOMOSEXUALITY

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Tleilax"
Date:	04 Oct 2006 06:44:54 PM
Object:	HOMOSEXUALITY

-what does that word bring to your mind? Most persons have a rather
limited understanding of the subject. While homosexuals are calling out
as never before for consideration and understanding of their point of
view, few people are willing to look into their world and find out why
homosexuals (or "gays") are the way they are.
Many people may know basically what a homosexual is. But that is about
all they know. The first part of the term homosexual is drawn from a
Greek word h=F3moios, meaning "one and the same." A homosexual is
thus a person who prefers to have sexual connection with persons of the
same sex. Male homosexuals prefer other males. Female homosexuals or
lesbians desire sexual activity with other females rather than with
men. But there is much more to learn on the subject.
The world of the homosexual must be seen in just that way-as a whole
world, a culture or way of life uniquely its own. 'It is not solely a
matter of sexual preference. An outsider, or someone the homosexual
calls a "straight," can only partially understand this world.
Nevertheless, increasing light has been shed on it in recent years.
Particularly in the last five years have homosexuals themselves
revealed more about their ways.
.

User: "Tockk"
Title: Re: HOMOSEXUALITY	05 Oct 2006 03:24:29 AM

"Tleilax" <zodriol@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159987494.597736.89700@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
-what does that word bring to your mind?
A couple of nice guys playing games of Parcheesi and Poker, going out on
the town on friday night, going to church on Sunday. Doing laundry on
Sunday night, walking the dog, paying bills, getting up on Monday morning,
going their seperate ways to go to work.
That's the homosexual lifestyle.
-Tock
.

User: "Robibnikoff"
Title: Re: HOMOSEXUALITY	04 Oct 2006 08:41:11 PM

"Tleilax" <zodriol@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159987494.597736.89700@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
-what does that word bring to your mind?
Some of my best friends ;)
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: HOMOSEXUALITY	08 Oct 2006 10:27:07 PM

On Wed, 4 Oct 2006 16:41:11 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in alt.atheism

"Tleilax" <zodriol@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159987494.597736.89700@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
-what does that word bring to your mind?

Some of my best friends ;)

And they're far superior to the Jabbers fuckwit.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.

User: "Tleilax"
Title: Who Are they?	04 Oct 2006 07:58:28 PM

First of all, it is wise to get some distinctions clearly in mind. Not
all homosexuals are to be confused with transvestites. The latter is a
person who may wish he were of the opposite sex and who may even dress
and carry on as though he were. Some individuals go so far as to become
transsexuals. That is, they actually undergo an operation to have
themselves physically changed. Males will receive hormones to enlarge
the breasts and soften the skin; their sex organ is surgically removed
and an artificial vagina formed, sometimes from sensitive penile or
scrotal material. While they are, of course, incapable of bearing a
child, a measure of sexual orgasm is possible in intercourse.
Female transsexuals have taken testosterone so that hair grows more
abundantly on the face and chest. In some cases the clitoris has been
induced to grow larger or an artificial penis has been attached with
which they can bring another female partner to sexual climax.
However, most homosexuals are not like this. Some resent being placed
in the same category with transvestites and transsexuals, who, in their
opinion, are the scum of the homosexual world. The majority of
homosexual males will tell a person that they are glad they are males
and that they have no desire to be women. Sexually, however, they
prefer the company of other men.
Some homosexuals seem to have a preference for certain occupations,
such as hairdressing, interior decorating, fashion designing and the
performing arts. In the 1967-68 New York Broadway theater season at
least 31 percent of 58 Broadway shows were said to be produced by
homosexuals; 38 percent had homosexual directors.
But homosexuals are by no means limited to these professions. One
homosexual writer admits: "Most homosexuals I've known worked in
such standard pursuits as business, finance, the legal and medical
professions, the ministry, and law enforcement-and several were
professional athletes." Interestingly, certain homosexuals actually
prefer so-called "he-man" jobs, perhaps so that others will not
readily identify them as homosexuals
.

User: "Tleilax"
Title: Hate Homosexuals?	05 Oct 2006 12:22:32 AM

IN 1969 a word describing an irrational fear of or aversion to
homosexuals was coined in the English language. The word is
"homophobia." Many languages do not have such a specific word, yet
for thousands of years, people of many nations and tongues have evinced
a dislike for homosexuals.
In more recent times, though, homosexuality has been widely promoted as
merely an alternative form of sexual expression. Historian Jerry Z.
Muller recently wrote of a "rising demand for public recognition and
respect for homosexuality as such." He explained that homosexuals
"have increasingly banded together to proclaim their practice as
praiseworthy, and to demand that others do so as well." This is seen
especially in Western countries. However, in most parts of the world,
even in so-called liberal lands, many still condemn and spurn
homosexuality.
Homosexuals and those suspected of homosexuality are often singled out
as targets of scornful remarks, harassment, and violence. Even
religious leaders have manifested such hatred. Some have started what
may seem to be their own private wars against homosexuals. Take, for
instance, the comments made by a bishop of the Greek Orthodox Church
that were broadcasted recently on Greek national radio. He stated:
"God will burn homosexuals forever in the fiery pitch of hell. The
screams of their filthy mouths will resound to all eternity. Their
perverse bodies will experience unbearable torment." Is this really
true? How does God feel about homosexuals?
.

User: "Tockk"
Title: Re: Hate Homosexuals?	05 Oct 2006 03:25:52 AM

"Tleilax" <zodriol@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1160007752.777650.178800@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...

How does God feel about homosexuals?

With his fingers . . .
-Tock
.

User: "John Griffin"
Title: Re: Hate Homosexuals?	05 Oct 2006 02:31:12 AM

"Tleilax" <zodriol@gmail.com> wrote:

... How does God feel about homosexuals?

Gods are just myths, of course, but here's what The Pervert
Mohammed's primitive cult thinks about that particular form of
sexual disorientation...
http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=3056
.

User: "kope2"
Title: Re: Hate Homosexuals?	05 Oct 2006 04:49:33 AM

i am a radical muslim please read my blog.
http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
.

User: "Fred Liken"
Title: Re: Hate Homosexuals?	05 Oct 2006 05:53:03 PM

Hmmm... I dislike smoking, but does that mean I have to hate smokers if I
ever found out that they smoked?
I dislike the idea of sex with a man, but why would I need to hate someone
that didn't have that reaction? Am I wrong for having that reaction? Don't
gays find sex with people of the opposite sex unappealing, no?

How does God feel about homosexuals?

I'm not sure what that answer would be as far as which God you're talking
about, etc, but as far as the Christian's God, even if it was a sin,
wouldn't it be able to be forgiven? I'm sure most people have bigger
demons.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Hate Homosexuals?	05 Oct 2006 06:23:03 PM

Fred Liken wrote:

Hmmm... I dislike smoking, but does that mean I have to hate smokers if I
ever found out that they smoked?

I think it's the same all around. Ya hate the act, but not the person
specifically.

I dislike the idea of sex with a man, but why would I need to hate someone
that didn't have that reaction? Am I wrong for having that reaction? Don't
gays find sex with people of the opposite sex unappealing, no?

I wonder because they don't have demonstrable acts for any aversion to
other sex, that they think that all sex is ok no matter what?

How does God feel about homosexuals?

All sin is forgivable except the one against the Holy Spirit. Just
have to be sincere in changing the course of action.
CJ
.

User: "Bible Bob"
Title: Re: Hate Homosexuals?	06 Oct 2006 02:04:20 PM

On 5 Oct 2006 12:53:03 -0500, "Fred Liken"
<nothanks@toocoolforschool.com> wrote:

How does God feel about homosexuals?

Sins of the saints is forgiven when confessed.
1 John 1:8-10 KJV
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth
is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our]
sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his
word is not in us.
......
BB
http://www.biblebob.net
.

User: "Bible Bob"
Title: Re: Hate Homosexuals?	05 Oct 2006 02:48:04 PM

On 4 Oct 2006 17:22:32 -0700, "Tleilax" <zodriol@gmail.com> wrote:

IN 1969 a word describing an irrational fear of or aversion to
homosexuals was coined in the English language. The word is
"homophobia." Many languages do not have such a specific word, yet
for thousands of years, people of many nations and tongues have evinced
a dislike for homosexuals.

In more recent times, though, homosexuality has been widely promoted as
merely an alternative form of sexual expression. Historian Jerry Z.
Muller recently wrote of a "rising demand for public recognition and
respect for homosexuality as such." He explained that homosexuals
"have increasingly banded together to proclaim their practice as
praiseworthy, and to demand that others do so as well." This is seen
especially in Western countries. However, in most parts of the world,
even in so-called liberal lands, many still condemn and spurn
homosexuality.

Homosexuals and those suspected of homosexuality are often singled out
as targets of scornful remarks, harassment, and violence. Even
religious leaders have manifested such hatred. Some have started what
may seem to be their own private wars against homosexuals. Take, for
instance, the comments made by a bishop of the Greek Orthodox Church
that were broadcasted recently on Greek national radio. He stated:
"God will burn homosexuals forever in the fiery pitch of hell. The
screams of their filthy mouths will resound to all eternity. Their
perverse bodies will experience unbearable torment." Is this really
true? How does God feel about homosexuals?

Hate homosexuals? Hate is always wrong. Even righteous Job only
"eschewed" (rebelled against) evil. Homosexuals need forgiveness,
compassion, and understanding; not hatred. Sin takes hold of all men
and women during their lives. Jesus dealt with the worst kind of
sinner when he said the following about those that were murdering Him.
Luke 23:34 KJV
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
And yet, day after day we see commentary by religionists suggesting
that God will turn sinners into crispy critters when there is nothing
in the Bible applicable during this dispensation that says that people
will become crispy critters when they die as a result of the normal
sins of mankind. True, Revelation does speak of the lake of fire and
those that are resurrected who are not righteous; but that is a future
event and during this dispensation it is the rejection of the Savior
from sin; not sin, that earns a person what is due the unrighteous.
The Bible (Romans 1) says that "homosexuals" and other classes of
sinners are "worthy" of death; not that they are to be hated or put to
death. Society assigns "degree" to sin. According to the Bible all
unrighteousness is sin. Homosexuality, murder, thievery, lieing and
the like are all sin that earn consequences in the present. Sin means
"to miss the mark" - to miss the bullseye. That's what sin means.
Unrighteousness is that which is not righteous.
Jesus said, Father forgive them for they know not what they do. That
was true then and it is true now. The word "know" from "oida" means
to "perceive." People do not perceive that what they are doing is
wrong. Like those who murdered Jesus, they are taught that wrong
behavior is righteous behavior. So it is with homosexuality where
homosexuals are falsely taught that homosexuality and other sexual
preferences such as child molesting and rape are genetic conditions
when in fact there is no unbiased scientific evidence to support such
claims.
Pedophiles and homosexuals should feel guilty; that's a good sign of
good mental health. They need to start worrying when honesty is
replaced by dishonesty through the processes of sin rationalization
which leads to a reprobate mind and the consequencs thereof.
The homosexual can be saved and is loved of God just like any other
person and we should love them but eschew their evil. It is God's job
to forgive homosexuals; not our job. To think that we have the right
to forgive another of sins not comitted against us is evil and
arrogant. The natural and spiritual consequences of homosexuality are
sufficient. Our job is to speak the truth in love and to help a
brother or sister in Christ overcome their sins. The unbelievers
don't matter since they are "dead" anyway. But once they are "saved"
and become alive; then they need our compassion and understanding and
help. These are people to be pitied; not hated. We were also sinners
before we were saved and it took us time and still does take us time
to puit off the old man and put on the new man. They need time to
grow to maturity. They belong to God; not us. We are not their
judges and the sooner we learn that the better off they and we will
be.
......
BB
http://www.biblebob.net
.

User: "Surfer"
Title: Re: Hate Homosexuals?	05 Oct 2006 06:07:02 PM

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 14:48:04 GMT, Bible Bob <biblebob@saintly.com>
wrote:

Homosexuals need forgiveness,
compassion, and understanding; not hatred. Sin takes hold of all men
and women during their lives.

I have been pondering the meaning of the following verses:
From Matthew 15:
http://bible.cc/matthew/15-11.htm
10 He summoned the multitude, and said to them, "Hear, and understand.
11 That which enters into the mouth doesn't defile the man; but that
which proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man."
12 Then the disciples came, and said to him, "Do you know that the
Pharisees were offended, when they heard this saying?"
13 But he answered, "Every plant which my heavenly Father didn't plant
will be uprooted.
14 Leave them alone. They are blind guides of the blind. If the blind
guide the blind, both will fall into a pit."
15 Peter answered him, "Explain the parable to us."
16 So Jesus said, "Do you also still not understand?
17 Don't you understand that whatever goes into the mouth passes into
the belly, and then out of the body?
18 But the things which proceed out of the mouth come out of the
heart, and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries,
sexual sins, thefts, false testimony, and blasphemies.
20 These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed
hands doesn't defile the man."
The message I get from the above, is that Jesus wanted to replace
fussy Old Testament rules, such as the rules against eating certain
foods and against eating with unwashed hands, with more sensible
rules.
As a result, it is not a sin for Christians to break such rules so
Christians can for example eat pork if they wish.
In the above, Jesus mentions sexual sin, but can we be sure homosexual
acts fall into this category? My instinct tells me that rape and
sexual abuse would be sins because they distress the victim, but its
not clear to me that homosexual acts would be sins.
.

User: "Grinder"
Title: Re: Hate Homosexuals?	05 Oct 2006 01:55:52 AM

Tleilax wrote:

Homosexuals and those suspected of homosexuality are often singled out
as targets of scornful remarks, harassment, and violence. Even
religious leaders have manifested such hatred.

Even? You make it sound like you're surprised that religious leaders
have shown a hatred towards homosexuals. Is there some other reason,
besides religious conviction, to think that there's anything wrong with
homosexuality?
.

User: "Precision"
Title: Re: Hate Homosexuals?	09 Oct 2006 07:19:26 AM

"Grinder" <grinder@no.spam.maam.com> wrote in message
news:ICZUg.1009237$084.660350@attbi_s22...

Tleilax wrote:

Homosexuals and those suspected of homosexuality are often singled out
as targets of scornful remarks, harassment, and violence. Even
religious leaders have manifested such hatred.

Even? You make it sound like you're surprised that religious leaders have
shown a hatred towards homosexuals. Is there some other reason, besides
religious conviction, to think that there's anything wrong with
homosexuality?

Let's assume for a minute that God didn't condemn homosexuality per se, but
rather, had practical considerations that made a full scale conversion of
Earth's population to homosexuality less than desirable.
Less than desirable? How so, you may ask?
Well, a full scale conversion of the human population to homosexuality would
end natural child birth through the union of a man and woman in loving
matrimony.
(Ephesians 5:28-6:4) 28 In this way husbands ought to be loving their wives
as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself, 29 for no man ever
hated his own flesh; but he feeds and cherishes it, as the Christ also does
the congregation, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason
a man will leave [his] father and [his] mother and he will stick to his
wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32 This sacred secret is great.
Now I am speaking with respect to Christ and the congregation. 33
Nevertheless, also, let each one of YOU individually so love his wife as he
does himself; on the other hand, the wife should have deep respect for her
husband. 6 Children, be obedient to YOUR parents in union with [the] Lord,
for this is righteous: 2 "Honor your father and [your] mother"; which is the
first command with a promise: 3 "That it may go well with you and you may
endure a long time on the earth." 4 And YOU, fathers, do not be irritating
YOUR children, but go on bringing them up in the discipline and
mental-regulating of Jehovah.
Therefore, addressing your question "Is there some other reason, besides
religious conviction, to think that there's anything wrong with
homosexuality?" the answer is simply "everything humans have done since the
first man and woman sinned against God in Eden long ago is 'sin' and the
wages sin pays is death:
(Romans 6:21-23) 21 What, then, was the fruit that YOU used to have at that
time? Things of which YOU are now ashamed. For the end of those things is
death. 22 However, now, because YOU were set free from sin but became slaves
to God, YOU are having YOUR fruit in the way of holiness, and the end
everlasting life. 23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives
is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.
It is reasonable to conclude that homosexuality is sin even outside the
proclamations of the apostles against homosexuality. Even if one concludes
the apostles were expressing bias based on the biological realities of their
technologically primitive era (lack of any medical technologies to prevent
runaway venereal and other sexually transmitted disease) one still must
pragmatically conclude that God intended sex for procreation, and lovingly
made that union of creation of life an enjoyable experienced shared by the
mother and father to be. Anything outside that natural union is sin. All
acts of sin are part of the overall human experience and work against our
mortality by causing the spread of disease and the breakdown of family
values.
Can one mitigate the "wages" of sin that include disease and death? Yes...
modern technologies make it possible for the consequences of "wages" of sin
to be mitigated through ever advancing medical technologies.
Does this somehow justify this sin? Well, I think a balanced way of
approaching this question is to remember that as Christians we approach God
daily as SINNERS who cannot "cleanse" themselves of sin in this life. We
must rely on the atonement of Jesus Christ through his sacrifice which was
the turning point in human history. Homosexuality is but one element of
overall sin through the human population.
In other words, some may destroy their bodies by smoking. Others may destroy
their kidneys and livers through alcoholism or drug abuse. Others may
permanently compromise their immune systems through sexual activity
including homosexual practices. EVERYONE IS INVOLVED IN ONE OR MORE SINS
COMMON TO HUMANITY. No one person can say, "I'm better because I'm an
alcoholic and NOT a homosexual!"
Imagine someone who kills a family by hitting their car head-on at night in
a drunken stupor to have the audacity of claiming, "I'm better before God
than the man/woman next door who is a homosexual because God considers
alcoholism less sinful than homosexuality"?
So in other words, that person is saying, "it's better that I murdered an
innocent family in my drunken stupor, than live a law-abiding life with a
homosexual partner minding my own business." That's sick and twisted, and
unfortunately, the reasoning of many fundamentalists throughout Christendom.
The fact is BOTH have sinned and must rely on Jesus Christ's atonement of
blood through his sacrifice nailed to the stake (whether it was a cross or
stake is historically inconclusive and various Christian denomination give
weight to one or the other). I recommend the movie directed by Mel Gibson
called 'The Passion of Christ' (I think that is what it's called). I saw it
on pay-per-view via satellite TV and it is really emotionally moving as to
what Jesus Christ endured to save ALL mankind, regardless to predilection to
various sins, from everlasting death.
I hope this answers your question to some extent.
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User: "ScottyFLL"
Title: Re: Hate Homosexuals?	09 Oct 2006 09:30:21 PM

Precision wrote:

Well, a full scale conversion of the human population to homosexuality would
end natural child birth through the union of a man and woman in loving
matrimony.

What the ***** is this? Nobody advocates a "full-scale conversion" of
any sort like this. Is THAT what you're afraid of? JESUS CHRIST,
honey, GET A GRIP!
.

User: "Precision"
Title: Re: Hate Homosexuals?	10 Oct 2006 09:24:44 PM

"ScottyFLL" <ScottyFLL@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1160429421.680334.24360@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

Precision wrote:

Well, a full scale conversion of the human population to homosexuality
would
end natural child birth through the union of a man and woman in loving
matrimony.

What the ***** is this? Nobody advocates a "full-scale conversion" of
any sort like this. Is THAT what you're afraid of? JESUS CHRIST,
honey, GET A GRIP!

I don't believe anyone wants such a thing to happen. In a normal population
of imperfect humans there is a mix of heterosexuals and homosexuals (and as
I understand a mix called 'bisexuals').
I believe God judges people according to their heart conditions. The Bible
shows that Jesus ministered to those outside the gates of Jerusalem who were
outcasts of the judgmental society within those gates.
If anyone next to God himself is a friend to homosexual men and women today,
if anyone understands them most of all, it is the one who was involved in
designing the human anatomy before this world began, someone who will
champion your survival through the events prophesied in the book of
Revelation into a new world paradise where everyone will live happily ever
after. If I sound overly optimistic, it's because I became a hopeless and
eternal optimist from the one whom I just described, known historically as
Jesus Christ.
We all have issues. I think it's condescending of fundamentalists to single
out homosexual as the ones having moral problems when they are disgusting in
their own right... we're all sinners in one way or another and it's
hypocritical to condemn one group of people because they're an easy moving
target.
In answer to your question, Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because the
"mix" got out of control and the acts were not functional, loving people who
happened to be homosexuals... otherwise other cities like San Francisco
would have been destroyed. God singled out those two cities in all of
history, Sodom and Gomorrah, and I think the churches have focused on the
wrong reasons they were destroyed. If they were destroyed because of
homosexuality then God would be inconsistent in sparing other cities with
major homosexual populations. Although I believe history will one day reveal
the true reasons for Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction -- perhaps involving
mass homosexuality of an immoral sort that most homosexuals today cannot
fathom, such as rapes and murders in broad daylight -- I think it may have
involved a contagious disease with effects similar to "mad cow" that could
have spread worldwide. Burning the cities to the ground was the only hope of
containment. This is just my theory, but I think it's wrong when
fundamentalists hypocritically use this historical event as an excuse to
persecute homosexuals. They're people like everyone else.
I have seen homosexuals attend my congregation over the years and they're
treated with love and respect. True Christians try to emulate Jesus Christ
who loved everyone, even those condemned by the religious leaders of his
day.
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User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Hate Homosexuals?	12 Oct 2006 02:12:44 AM

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:24:44 -0700, "Precision" <precision@usenet.com>
wrote:

If anyone next to God himself is a friend to homosexual men and women today,
if anyone understands them most of all, it is the one who was involved in
designing the human anatomy before this world began

You're talking about that totally incompetent designer who gave the
octopus a pretty good eye, but gave mankind a blind spot?
The one who designed chimpanzees so even a young one can drink and
talk with no problem, but a human who tries that usually chokes?
The one who designed the cochlea so badly that one loud sound (like a
thunderclap) can render it useless for understanding human speech?
The one who gave cats the ability to manufacture vitamin C in their
bodies but left scurvy for us?
THAT incompetent wannabe?

someone who will
champion your survival through the events prophesied in the book of
Revelation

When are the Deluded of Christ going to get it - Revelation was
written as a joke.

into a new world paradise where everyone will live happily ever
after.

Honey, take it from a dead man - when you close the refrigerator door,
the light doesn't go out to Jupiter - it just goes out. The song
claims that love is all there is - it's death that's all there is.
After death there is no more, unless your doctor can't accept the
reality of losing a patient.

We all have issues.

Yours is an inability to deal with reality.

I think it's condescending of fundamentalists to single
out homosexual as the ones having moral problems when they are disgusting in
their own right... we're all sinners in one way or another

Except that homosexuality is as much a "sin" as heterosexuality. It's
just an alternate wiring of the brain. Really. Science has shown
that there are differences in the way heterosexual and homosexual
brains work.

and it's hypocritical to condemn one group of people because they're an easy moving
target.

It's much easier to condemn the willfully ignorant - they don't move
much. But as a Christian, it's not only hypocritical, it's a sin.

In answer to your question, Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because

The word you're looking for is "earthquake". You know, just like
still happens all over the Middle East, destroying cities.

"mix" got out of control and the acts were not functional, loving people who
happened to be homosexuals... otherwise other cities like San Francisco
would have been destroyed.

Oh, homosexuality in Sodom was bad enough to destroy the city but
homosexuality in SF is just bad enough to infest it with hippies. I
see.

God singled out those two cities in all of
history, Sodom and Gomorrah, and I think the churches have focused on the
wrong reasons they were destroyed.

Yeah, what do the Churches (or churches, which don't focus on anything
like that) know? You're a Christian, so you tell 'em.

If they were destroyed because of
homosexuality then God would be inconsistent in sparing other cities with
major homosexual populations.

Your god is consistent? There's a trial just ending around here - an
8-year-old girl was decapitated because a drunk got on the parkway
going in the wrong direction. I'll bet her mother thinks your god is
very consistent. She was such a bad girl that the only fitting
punishment was beheading.

Although I believe history will one day reveal
the true reasons for Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction

It already has - it's spelled M-Y-T-H. As in, someone made it up as
an object lesson.
Why would your god design someone in a particular way, then destroy a
city because that person was that way? That would be a pretty strong
sign that your god was very much in need of psychiatric care. And
restraints.

True Christians try to emulate Jesus Christ

Who was Jewish. Are you trying to be Jewish? Or do you just
cherry-pick. One trait from column A, one from column B ... but don't
pick Judaism. Or actually obeying the OT, which Jesus told you you
have to do. Pick the things you like.
It's called Salad Bar Christianity, and it's the oldest sect in the
religion. In fact, it's the ONLY sect in the religion. In any
religion. And the only way to get more hypocritical than that is to
have a god giving you supernatural help. Man can't get more
hypocritical than Salad Bar religion.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Never in human history have such genocide and cruelty been
witnessed. Such a genocide was never seen in the time of the pharaohs nor
of Hitler nor of Mussolini."
- Mehmet Elkatmi, head of Turkish parliament's human rights commission
on Bush's genocide in the Iraq war. 11-28-2004
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
.

User: "Precision"
Title: Re: Hate Homosexuals?	12 Oct 2006 07:41:52 AM

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:bt7ri2l7iiqdkf2fdmv6776k7kkpp9c7n3@4ax.com...

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:24:44 -0700, "Precision" <precision@usenet.com>
wrote:

[...]

and it's hypocritical to condemn one group of people because they're an
easy moving
target.

It's much easier to condemn the willfully ignorant - they don't move
much. But as a Christian, it's not only hypocritical, it's a sin.

I want to clarify that if you reread my post, I said that homosexuality was
not likely the reason God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Although men lusting after and raping other men was certainly a component of
the murder and mayhem of Sodom and Gomorrah, the reasons for God destroying
these cities was far more comprehensive. My case in point was San Francisco.
The fact God didn't destroy this city and others with large homosexual
populations demonstrates that Sodom and Gomorrah must have been destroyed
for other reasons. Otherwise, God would be inconsistent in His judgments and
we know that is not so.

In answer to your question, Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because

The word you're looking for is "earthquake". You know, just like
still happens all over the Middle East, destroying cities.

That is only one theory some geologists have proposed. Other theories such
as a similar event to what occurred in Russia in the early 20th century
involving an explosion from a comet hitting the atmosphere have also been
proposed. We simply do not have enough evidence to scientifically determine
the mechanism for Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction and therefore must draw
upon the Bible's historical account to extrapolate on possible causes.

"mix" got out of control and the acts were not functional, loving people
who
happened to be homosexuals... otherwise other cities like San Francisco
would have been destroyed.

Oh, homosexuality in Sodom was bad enough to destroy the city but
homosexuality in SF is just bad enough to infest it with hippies. I
see.

Again, you have misconstrued my comments. The real cause for God's
destroying Sodom and Gomorrah was likely other greater evils. Homosexuality
was occurring in these cities on a massive scale, that we know for certain
from the Bible's account of this historical event. However, we know there
were evils practiced in these cities NOT caused by homosexuality. Did you
overlook my suggestion that a contageous disease that caused insanity --
perhaps a PRION DISEASE like "made cow" -- was spreading like wildfire out
of control in these cities? Diseases are known to cause madness from
paranoia to violent and psychotic behaviors. Again, this has nothing to do
with homosexuality per se.
As a footnote has it ever occurred to you that although homosexuality is
something people may be born with due to human imperfection -- just as
heterosexuality is also imperfect due to the human imperfection -- that it
is also possible for diseases infecting the brain to grossly exaggerate
human sexual aggressions? Such diseases account for uncontrollable psychotic
behaviors. I've heard of some prion diseases break out in jungle tribes that
ritualistically eat raw monkey brains.
One tribal study I read about years ago spoke about an entire community of
pygmies exhibiting the symptoms of "mad cow" from eating raw monkey brains
and over a short period of time, these pygmies had the uncontrollable urge
to cannibalize other natives living in surrounding tribes! The cannibalism
was accompanied by bizaar sexual practices. It was like this strain of prion
or other disease capable of passing the blood-brain barrier was causing
those infected to exhibit compulsive disorders involving human appetites
from eating to sex in the most shocking and perverse ways. I rather suspect
a disease emerged in Sodom and Gomorrah, perhaps caused by a combination of
poor sanitary conditions and the unique environment of that region. The
point is that God doesn't destroy just out of vengeance but out of mercy,
having the ability to resurrect those who perish due to disease and their
human imperfections.
Since you evidently have issues with God, perhaps from bad experiences with
false religion, you seem to selectively "hear" what I say and put the wrong
spin to it.

God singled out those two cities in all of
history, Sodom and Gomorrah, and I think the churches have focused on the
wrong reasons they were destroyed.

Yeah, what do the Churches (or churches, which don't focus on anything
like that) know? You're a Christian, so you tell 'em.

Many churches have abandoned the true God and engage in idolatrous, false
worship. The book of Revelation describes false religion or "Babylon the
Great" as a filthy ***** riding the back of the "beast" of this world's
corrupt political systems and governments manipulated by the demon angel
known as Satan, who we know is God's arch enemy. In short, many churches who
profess Christianity today are really houses of spiritual prostitution, NOT
houses of pure worship.
Is that telling 'em enough or was I too merciful? ;-)
Many spiritual "salad bars" have e-coli.
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Hate Homosexuals?	12 Oct 2006 05:25:08 PM

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 00:41:52 -0700, "Precision" <precision@usenet.com>
wrote:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:bt7ri2l7iiqdkf2fdmv6776k7kkpp9c7n3@4ax.com...

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:24:44 -0700, "Precision" <precision@usenet.com>
wrote:

[...]

and it's hypocritical to condemn one group of people because they're an
easy moving
target.

It's much easier to condemn the willfully ignorant - they don't move
much. But as a Christian, it's not only hypocritical, it's a sin.

I want to clarify that if you reread my post, I said that homosexuality was
not likely the reason God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Since there's not a single word in the Bible, OT or NT, about
homosexuality, even assuming that every word in the Bible were the
absolute truth, of course he wouldn't.

Although men lusting after and raping other men was certainly a component of
the murder and mayhem of Sodom and Gomorrah

That's as much homosexuality as men lusting after and raping women is
heterosexuality.

the reasons for God destroying
these cities was far more comprehensive. My case in point was San Francisco.

Pretty apt, since the cause in both cases was the same. Tectonic
plates can't move continuously and smoothly (due to the way matter
works), so when they slip the resultant jarring is what we call an
earthquake - which destroys cities.
If you want to bring a god into it, earthquakes, and the resultant
destruction of cities, is inherent in the way the god made matter. A
city whose inhabitants use fire will burn in a large earthquake. We
see it happen all the time.

The fact God didn't destroy this city and others with large homosexual
populations demonstrates that Sodom and Gomorrah must have been destroyed
for other reasons.

Well, it demonstrates that since SF has become a city with a large
homosexual population, we've learned more about earthquakes and more
about construction techniques, so earthquakes no longer totally
destroy modern cities.
You know whether the west coast of the North American continent had a
large homosexual population 3,500 years ago, and whether there was a
large earthquake back then?
Comparing now with 1,500 BC is silly.

Otherwise, God would be inconsistent in His judgments and
we know that is not so.

To the contrary, we know that the God character constantly contradicts
himself in the Bible. Draw a timeline for the morning of the
resurrection, leaving out nothing and adding nothing. It's
impossible. Faith or works? No killing or execution?

In answer to your question, Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because

The word you're looking for is "earthquake". You know, just like
still happens all over the Middle East, destroying cities.

That is only one theory some geologists have proposed.

Actually we can look and see when an earthquake occurred in an area,
even many centuries ago, just like we know, to the moment, when any
given eclipse, solar or lunar, occurred at any given point on the
planet. Geology isn't guesswork.

Other theories such
as a similar event to what occurred in Russia in the early 20th century
involving an explosion from a comet hitting the atmosphere have also been
proposed.

Not theories and not proposed. "Things" "asserted" by people who
don't know what they're talking about. There's evidence of Tunguska -
none for S & G. There's even actual physical evidence of the
meteorite that "killed the dinosaurs" (it really just finished their
dying off) 65 MILLION years ago. So finding physical evidence of a
meteor that landed a mere 3,500 years ago isn't difficult - especially
when we know where to look.

We simply do not have enough evidence to scientifically determine
the mechanism for Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction and therefore must draw
upon the Bible's historical account to extrapolate on possible causes.

We DO have enough evidence and knowledge to know that IF a city was
destroyed by shaking and fire in the Middle East around that time, it
was due to an earthquake. We also KNOW that no one leaving the city
was turned into a pillar of salt because she looked in the wrong
direction. People don't turn into salt, especially not due to what
image is impinging on their retina, and Velikovsky is deluded, at
best.

You mean, "that's what's in the fairy tale". The vast majority of the
world's human population doesn't start with the assumption that what's
in your book of gore is reality.

However, we know there
were evils practiced in these cities NOT caused by homosexuality. Did you
overlook my suggestion that a contageous disease that caused insanity --
perhaps a PRION DISEASE like "made cow"

That's caused by feeding bovines ground up bovine - not something
farmers did back then.

-- was spreading like wildfire out
of control in these cities? Diseases are known to cause madness from
paranoia to violent and psychotic behaviors. Again, this has nothing to do
with homosexuality per se.

Or with reality or any actual evidence. If you want to invent things,
why not space ships that destroyed the city with laser canons?

As a footnote has it ever occurred to you that although homosexuality is
something people may be born with due to human imperfection -- just as
heterosexuality is also imperfect due to the human imperfection -- that it
is also possible for diseases infecting the brain to grossly exaggerate
human sexual aggressions? Such diseases account for uncontrollable psychotic
behaviors. I've heard of some prion diseases break out in jungle tribes that
ritualistically eat raw monkey brains.

Which has nothing to do with homosexuality being, somehow, "wrong" or
"unnatural". Even prion diseases are natural. But the ancient
Hebrews didn't eat bush meat, so the situation doesn't apply.

One tribal study I read about years ago spoke about an entire community of
pygmies exhibiting the symptoms of "mad cow" from eating raw monkey brains
and over a short period of time, these pygmies had the uncontrollable urge
to cannibalize other natives living in surrounding tribes! The cannibalism
was accompanied by bizaar sexual practices.

You should write that up for an anthropological journal - there's no
actual documented case of regular ritual cannibalism.

Since you evidently have issues with God, perhaps from bad experiences with
false religion

All religion is false as far as its belief in the supernatural. I've
just never been infected with the meme. I was born an atheist and
that's never changed.

you seem to selectively "hear" what I say and put the wrong spin to it.

Maybe because you're assuming that I'm starting with the same
assumptions you are. I'm not. I don't assume that your god exists,
or that your Bible is true. I know that you believe that these things
are as basic as that water is wet, but they're just your beliefs, not
facts.

God singled out those two cities in all of
history, Sodom and Gomorrah, and I think the churches have focused on the
wrong reasons they were destroyed.

Yeah, what do the Churches (or churches, which don't focus on anything
like that) know? You're a Christian, so you tell 'em.

Many churches have abandoned the true God and engage in idolatrous, false
worship.

You know what? Regardless of which one of the thousands of Christian
sects you belong to (why, if there's only 1 God, and one easy to
understand scripture, are there thousands of contradictory Churches?),
there are hundreds of other Christian sects that claim that your sect
has "abandoned the true God and engage[s] in idolatrous, false
worship".

The book of Revelation

Which is the mad ravings of a lunatic. Read it from a diagnostic
viewpoint.

describes false religion or "Babylon the Great" as a filthy *****

Gee! Christianity describing Judaism in less than glowing terms. What
will they think of next? How about calling Jews "Christ killers"? Do
you think that would fly?

In short, many churches who
profess Christianity today are really houses of spiritual prostitution, NOT
houses of pure worship.

And they say the same thing about your Church. (With a small 'c' it
just refers to a particular building.)

Is that telling 'em enough or was I too merciful? ;-)
Many spiritual "salad bars" have e-coli.

The nature of Salad Bar religion is that it's a disease in and of
itself.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I've heard the call. I believe God wants me to run for president."
- George W. Bush, quoted in George Magazine, September, 2000
"God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith,
deep and unshakeable faith, that he was sent to us by
God to save Germany."
- Hermann Goering, speaking of Hitler
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
.

User: "Precision"
Title: Re: Hate Homosexuals?	12 Oct 2006 08:28:32 PM

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:rrrsi21m0amkf527qgt04m05g2voc7u7a2@4ax.com...

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 00:41:52 -0700, "Precision" <precision@usenet.com>
wrote:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:bt7ri2l7iiqdkf2fdmv6776k7kkpp9c7n3@4ax.com...

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:24:44 -0700, "Precision" <precision@usenet.com>
wrote:

[...]
Other theories such
as a similar event to what occurred in Russia in the early 20th century
involving an explosion from a comet hitting the atmosphere have also been
proposed.

I couldn't resist a follow-up on your comment because there was indeed
evidence.
According to a Discovery Channel documentary on Sodom and Gomorrah, there
was molten glass found in the sand across the plain where the cities are
believed to have existed. Scientists studying this molten glass said
temperatures on the surface of the sun must have caused such fast melting of
desert sand. They concluded some celestial event of huge proportions -- a
meteor shower or comet explosion directly above the cities in the
atmosphere -- could account for this sudden rise in temperature. It would
also explain the phenomenon of crystalization of matter around the immediate
blast zone. Remember Lot's wife?
(Genesis 19:23-26) 23 The sun had gone forth over the land when Lot arrived
at Zo�ar. 24 Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from Jehovah, from
the heavens, upon Sod�om and upon Go�mor�rah. 25 So he went ahead
overthrowing these cities, even the entire District and all the inhabitants
of the cities and the plants of the ground. 26 And his wife began to look
around from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.
The crystallization of her body, if I recall correctly from the documentary
(and I can't recall the particulars), was a scientific phenomenon that
occurs outside a blast zone where temperatures are approaching the sun's
surface temperatures. Comets are giant chunks of "dirty ice" and generate
something approximating a nuclear reaction when hitting the surface of a
planet with an atmopshere. Lot's wife should have kept running. Instead she
turned around and likely stood at the threshold of the blast zone outside of
the containment area of the inferno caused by a comet or perhaps a yet
unknown type of celestial object creating an atmospheric "burst" of energy
as it entered Earth's upper atmopshere.
Read verse 23 that I quoted above carefully. Notice it says "the sun had
gone forth over the land when Lot arrived at Zoar." The American Standard
Version (ASV) renders the translation in Genesis 19:23: "The sun was risen
upon the earth when Lot came unto Zoar."
In other words, Lot and his family were running across the plain desperately
trying to get away from the cities. As the comet or other object came in
contact with the upper atmosphere, as the documentary pointed out, it looked
like the "sun" had suddenly risen and momentary moved across the sky (where
ordinarily, the Sun appears to be in a stationary position as it moves
across the sky during daylight hours). That is why the "sun" had "gone
forth" or "risen" as Lot and his family were running away from the cities...
Lot's wife's curiosity got the better of her. Had she kept running she would
have made it. Instead, she turned around likely at that "sweet spot"
bordering the blast zone. The heat at this bordering region of the blast
zone was not enough to cremate her instantly but crystalize her body where
she stood. It appeared as if she had become a statue or as verse 26
describes her state as "a pillar of salt."
Sodom and Gomorrah were instantly vaporized and the desert sands transformed
into a sea of molten glass, as scientists in the documentary showed in
photographs of these areas of sand.
It's noteworthy that any living pathogens that might have spread into a
worldwide epic plague, were wiped out from surface temperatures approaching
that of the sun's.
I must stress that God may have not had any choice in destroying Sodom and
Gomorrah. A plague could have turned the cities into a "zombie paradise" of
violent, sex crazed and carnivorous men, women and children due to something
simple as poor sanitation or food preparation in combination with
environmental factors that caused a virulent strain of virus or other
pathogen to mutate and spread through the human population.
(Genesis 19:1-11) 19 Now the two angels arrived at Sod�om by evening, and
Lot was sitting in the gate of Sod�om. When Lot caught sight of them, then
he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the earth. 2 And he
proceeded to say: "Please, now, my lords, turn aside, please, into the house
of YOUR servant and stay overnight and have YOUR feet washed. Then YOU must
get up early and travel on YOUR way." To this they said: "No, but in the
public square is where we shall stay overnight." 3 But he was very insistent
with them, so that they turned aside to him and came into his house. Then he
made a feast for them, and he baked unfermented cakes, and they went to
eating. 4 Before they could lie down, the men of the city, the men of
Sod�om, surrounded the house, from boy to old man, all the people in one
mob. 5 And they kept calling out to Lot and saying to him: "Where are the
men who came in to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have
intercourse with them." 6 Finally Lot went out to them to the entrance, but
he shut the door behind him. 7 Then he said: "Please, my brothers, do not
act badly. 8 Please, here I have two daughters who have never had
intercourse with a man. Please, let me bring them out to YOU. Then do to
them as is good in YOUR eyes. Only to these men do not do a thing, because
that is why they have come under the shadow of my roof." 9 At this they
said: "Stand back there!" And they added: "This lone man came here to reside
as an alien and yet he would actually play the judge. Now we are going to do
worse to you than to them." And they came pressing heavily in on the man, on
Lot, and were getting near to break in the door. 10 So the men thrust out
their hands and brought Lot in to them, into the house, and they shut the
door. 11 But they struck with blindness the men who were at the entrance of
the house, from the least to the greatest, so that they were wearing
themselves out trying to find the entrance.
Lot obviously loved and cared about these crazed individuals and begged them
to "not act badly" in the presence of God's emissaries, the materialized
angels who came to rescue Lot and his family before putting this tragic
matter to rest.
Lot even offered the crowd his own daughters out of desperation in order to
buy time for the angels to get into the door of his house, so they could
barracade the door. It became quickly apparent these men wanted the angels
who had taken human form as men and had no interest in Lot's daughters, whom
Lot was using as a brief diversion until the angels could get safely through
the door.
Notice they were existing symptoms of deranged mental impairment similar to
diseases that destroy the brain and cause violently obsessive compulsive
behavior. If you've ever seen the movie "Resident Evil" or its sequel you
saw the madness from a viral pathogen that was likely witnessed by Lot, his
family and the angelic visitors sent to save them from the coming
destruction of these cities.

As I said, the documentary showed signs of molten glass that could only have
occurred from temperatures approach the sun's, eminating from the sky above
Sodom and Gomorrah.
Even Genesis 19:23 gives a remarkable observation that one would observe
moments before a comet impacted the upper atmosphere. The comet appeared
like a ball of light as if the sun was suddenly overhead and visibly moving
slowly across the sky a few moments before the explosion.
Time does not allow me to comment on the remainder of your post just now. I
do understand your doubts expressed and think if you dig deep enough, you'll
discover the Bible has the truth. You just need to understand it and not
allow bias to creep into your reading of this wise and insightful book.

You mean, "that's what's in the fairy tale". The vast majority of the
world's human population doesn't start with the assumption that what's
in your book of gore is reality.

That's caused by feeding bovines ground up bovine - not something
farmers did back then.

Or with reality or any actual evidence. If you want to invent things,
why not space ships that destroyed the city with laser canons?

As a footnote has it ever occurred to you that although homosexuality is
something people may be born with due to human imperfection -- just as
heterosexuality is also imperfect due to the human imperfection -- that it
is also possible for diseases infecting the brain to grossly exaggerate
human sexual aggressions? Such diseases account for uncontrollable
psychotic
behaviors. I've heard of some prion diseases break out in jungle tribes
that
ritualistically eat raw monkey brains.

Which has nothing to do with homosexuality being, somehow, "wrong" or
"unnatural". Even prion diseases are natural. But the ancient
Hebrews didn't eat bush meat, so the situation doesn't apply.

You should write that up for an anthropological journal - there's no
actual documented case of regular ritual cannibalism.

Since you evidently have issues with God, perhaps from bad experiences
with
false religion

All religion is false as far as its belief in the supernatural. I've
just never been infected with the meme. I was born an atheist and
that's never changed.

you seem to selectively "hear" what I say and put the wrong spin to it.

God singled out those two cities in all of
history, Sodom and Gomorrah, and I think the churches have focused on
the
wrong reasons they were destroyed.

Yeah, what do the Churches (or churches, which don't focus on anything
like that) know? You're a Christian, so you tell 'em.

Many churches have abandoned the true God and engage in idolatrous, false
worship.

The book of Revelation

Which is the mad ravings of a lunatic. Read it from a diagnostic
viewpoint.

describes false religion or "Babylon the Great" as a filthy *****

Gee! Christianity describing Judaism in less than glowing terms. What
will they think of next? How about calling Jews "Christ killers"? Do
you think that would fly?

In short, many churches who
profess Christianity today are really houses of spiritual prostitution,
NOT
houses of pure worship.

And they say the same thing about your Church. (With a small 'c' it
just refers to a particular building.)

Is that telling 'em enough or was I too merciful? ;-)

Many spiritual "salad bars" have e-coli.

The nature of Salad Bar religion is that it's a disease in and of
itself.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I've heard the call. I believe God wants me to run for president."
- George W. Bush, quoted in George Magazine, September, 2000

"God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith,
deep and unshakeable faith, that he was sent to us by
God to save Germany."
- Hermann Goering, speaking of Hitler
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Hate Homosexuals?	13 Oct 2006 02:00:23 AM

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:28:32 -0700, "Precision" <precision@usenet.com>
wrote:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:rrrsi21m0amkf527qgt04m05g2voc7u7a2@4ax.com...

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 00:41:52 -0700, "Precision" <precision@usenet.com>
wrote:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:bt7ri2l7iiqdkf2fdmv6776k7kkpp9c7n3@4ax.com...

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:24:44 -0700, "Precision" <precision@usenet.com>
wrote:

[...]
Other theories such
as a similar event to what occurred in Russia in the early 20th century
involving an explosion from a comet hitting the atmosphere have also been
proposed.

I couldn't resist a follow-up on your comment because there was indeed
evidence.

According to a Discovery Channel documentary on Sodom and Gomorrah

Nothing on a Discovery Channel show can be considered evidence of
anything more than that it was shown on the Discovery Channel.

there
was molten glass found in the sand across the plain where the cities are
believed to have existed. Scientists studying this molten glass said
temperatures on the surface of the sun must have caused such fast melting of
desert sand. They concluded some celestial event of huge proportions -- a
meteor shower

The speed of melting is controlled more by the amount of heat than by
the temperature. A meteor shower particle doesn't usually even reach
the ground but, since the individual pieces are about the size of a
grain of sand (or smaller), there's almost no heat. At most it would
melt a few molecules of sand.
Do you know what the particles from a meteor are? They're the dust
grains left after the water evaporates. (What do you think the tail
is? Just water and dust.)

or comet explosion directly above the cities in the atmosphere

Comets don't enter the atmosphere, we pass through their tails -
that's the shower. They don't explode and there was no such event at
the time in question anyway. (Which meteor shower? Leonid? Geminid?
These things aren't random occurrences. Orbits tend to be
self-stabilizing. There's a nice shower every August 12th. Look
North after midnight. Don't believe me?
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseids> )
The writers of the OT took these things to be signs of the activities
of a god - he did what he wanted WHEN he wanted. Meteor showers,
solar eclipses ... We KNOW exactly how these things work, and we know
WHEN they occur. Want to know the closest solar eclipse to March 10,
35 AD, visible from Jerusalem? Almost any astronomer could look it up
for you, tell you at exactly what moment, Universal or local time, the
sun started to be occluded and exactly when the occlusion was most
complete. Or in the year 10,000 BC. Or 50,000 years ago. These
things aren't mysteries - we know when they occurred, and far into the
past.
And we know that comets don't blow up on the ground. People who don't
know any science probably look at Tunguska and figure, well a big
comet would cause even more destruction. Tunguska wasn't a comet, so
that statement immediately marks the assertion as not worth even
thinking about. People who think that the Tunguska event was caused
by a comet don't know enough real science to even accidentally come to
the right conclusion.

It would also explain the phenomenon of crystalization of matter around the immediate
blast zone. Remember Lot's wife?

Wow. Which branch of science is that? Saltology? Pillarology?
There's no known physical process by which human flesh can be turned
into a pillar of salt by an explosion. It's physically impossible and
it's chemically impossible. Pillars of mineral are produced in two
ways - deposition or erosion. (Water with dissolved minerals
dripping, or water wearing mineral away, leaving a pillar.) Not by
heat, explosion or looking the wrong way.

(Genesis 19:23-26) 23 The sun had gone forth over the land when Lot arrived
at Zo�ar. 24 Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from Jehovah, from
the heavens, upon Sod�om and upon Go�mor�rah. 25 So he went ahead
overthrowing these cities, even the entire District and all the inhabitants
of the cities and the plants of the ground. 26 And his wife began to look
around from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.
The crystallization of her body, if I recall correctly from the documentary
(and I can't recall the particulars), was a scientific phenomenon that
occurs outside a blast zone where temperatures are approaching the sun's
surface temperatures.

It's nonsense. TV shows are entertainment, not science. This sounds
like an "In Search Of" episode.
It's a science-fictiontific phenomenon. The highly technical term for
it in the scientific literature is "make believe". As in "let's make
believe that an explosion could turn a guy's wife into a pillar of
salt".

Comets are giant chunks of "dirty ice" and generate
something approximating a nuclear reaction when hitting the surface of a
planet with an atmopshere.

1) Comets don't hit the surface. The water boils off as the comet
gets closer (inside the orbit of Mars) to the sun. All that's left in
the tail is the "dirty" part - dust. Probably some carbonaceous
chondrites. Nothing is left to reach the surface or within miles of
the surface - it all burns up high in the atmosphere, which is the
"shower" you see. Why do you think the ablative tiles on the shuttle
are about the most important part of the shuttle once it's in orbit?
They're ceramic tiles that keep the shuttle from turning to scrap by
turning white hot. Remember what happened when just ONE of them was
damaged? With a comet, with no nice thrusters to make it approach the
atmosphere almost like a skipping rock approaches the water, it would
cause a steam explosion about 500 miles up. Then it would rain dust
for a few days, but less dust than normally falls from grains being
lifted by the wind. No melted glass, unless there were some glass
particles in low Earth orbit.

Lot's wife should have kept running.

Well ... that's kind of difficult when you don't really exist. It's
also difficult to outrun a (at the very least) few kiloton explosion.
The slow parts of it move at the speed of sound - about 700 mph.
Outrun that.

Instead she
turned around and likely stood at the threshold of the blast zone outside of
the containment area of the inferno caused by a comet or perhaps a yet
unknown type of celestial object creating an atmospheric "burst" of energy
as it entered Earth's upper atmopshere.

You're thinking of this as <>here is an explosion and <>here, 3 feet
away, is safety - and she stopped only 2 feet away, so she was too
close.
The kind of explosion we need here would have turned her to plasma if
she was close enough, or gas if she was further away. Look on the web
for pictures of survivors or Hiroshima - people who were close to the
center of the explosion. Do you know why you won't find pictures of
them? They don't exist. You can't outrun an explosion like that. Not
even in a jet liner. (The crew of the Enola Gay were exposed to the
radiation from the bomb they dropped.)
Come on - this is an explosion so powerful that concrete becomes
photosensitive. There are shadowgraphs of victims at Nagasaki and
Hiroshima on slabs of sidewalk. This isn't just a huge bomb.

Read verse 23

Why? The Bible can't be used as evidence that what it says is true.

that I quoted above carefully. Notice it says "the sun had
gone forth over the land when Lot arrived at Zoar." The American Standard
Version (ASV) renders the translation in Genesis 19:23: "The sun was risen
upon the earth when Lot came unto Zoar."
In other words, Lot and his family were running across the plain desperately
trying to get away from the cities. As the comet or other object came in
contact with the upper atmosphere, as the documentary pointed out, it looked
like the "sun" had suddenly risen and momentary moved across the sky (where
ordinarily, the Sun appears to be in a stationary position as it moves
across the sky during daylight hours). That is why the "sun" had "gone
forth" or "risen" as Lot and his family were running away from the cities...

You're saying that the evidence that what the Bible say happened
really did happen is that the Bible said it happened. Then, since
Superman comics says that Superman had X-Ray vision, I guess he did,
right? If it says it in a book that claims that it's true, it has to
be true? Tolkein, right at the beginning of the book, says that the
story you're about to read is absolutely true. Many science fiction
stories are presented as being true.
Just because a book says "this happened": is no reason to accept the
claim, let alone use the claim as evidence that the claim is correct.
Your basic assumption is that the Bible is true, so let's see what
evidence there is to back up that assumption.
Science works the other way - let's see what evidence there is, then
we'll put the evidence together and see where it leads us; hopefully
to some conclusion or other. Science doesn't always lead to a
conclusion. (See abiogenesis - life began. How did it begin? Not
enough evidence to say, but Earth is only 4.5 billion years old, so
life must have begun somehow, sometime.) Religion not only always has
a conclusion, it STARTS with the conclusion. "We know that this
happened - it's revealed truth. Now let's go find the evidence to see
HOW it happened."
No evidence, just an assertion, and that's all this is. Evidence of
Lot? None. Evidence of his wife? None. Evidence that she turned
into a pillar of salt? None. But you'll tell me HOW she turned into
a pillar of salt? first show the evidence that it happened.

It's noteworthy that any living pathogens that might have spread into a
worldwide epic plague, were wiped out from surface temperatures approaching
that of the sun's.

It's noteworthy that, had they not been wiped out they would have
starved in short order because there would have been nothing for them
to feed on (and one of the characteristics of life is that it must
feed itself). 7,000 degrees would sterilize every known form of life
- protein isn't even vaporized at that temperature, it disassociates.
(That means that it's not even a hydrocarbon, it's just some atoms and
molecules being blown around by the more-than-hurricane force winds
[heat causes wind and 7,000 degrees in one area would just about blow
the atmosphere off the planet].)

I must stress that God may have not had any choice in destroying Sodom and
Gomorrah.

There goes free will - and his, yet.

A plague could have turned the cities into a "zombie paradise" of
violent, sex crazed and carnivorous men

Which, being omnipotent, he could have cured by wishing it so. Oh, he
can't do anything to limit free will, even the free will of
microorganisms. But his free will can be limited.
You are aware, of course, that the OT says 'gods', not God? As
someone familiar with the OT, you're familiar with the name Elohim,
aren't you? (Study a little Hebrew grammar - 'im' is the Hebrew
equivalent of the English 's' - it's the PLURAL ending. As in more
than one. As in polytheism. As in the people who wrote the OT
believed in a family of gods. "... they will become as us ..." sound
familiar? He's talking to the other gods.)

women and children due to something
simple as poor sanitation or food preparation in combination with
environmental factors that caused a virulent strain of virus or other
pathogen to mutate and spread through the human population.

Mutate? Evolution is a lie, remember? Species don't mutate. Once an
influenza virus, always an influenza virus. You think an influenza
virus changes into a malaria bacterium? That would be like a tree
growing puppies. (Orson Scott Card, be quiet. Human says so. Thump,
thump.)
<more of the same "the proof that what's in the Bible is true is that
it says it in the Bible" snipped>
One note: "In Search Of" isn't a science show, it's Bible apologia.
You can almost be 100% certain that anything you see on that show is
less true than what you see in a Flintstones cartoon. If they say it,
look for another explanation, because something tells me that their
criteria for putting something in the show are a) is it true (if it
is, cut it) and b) is it outrageous enough, but not so outrageous that
those who want to believe won't.
But "Science"? I watch the shows. I also watch Law & Order and let
me tell you, they hew a lot closer to the truth. But I'm not deluded
enough to think that Mariska Hargitay is really a sex-crimes detective
in Manhattan or that there's such a thing as the "Long Island Police
Department" or that they patrol Long Island City (which is covered by
PBQ and the Queens precincts). And I don't believe that some god
destroyed 2 cities and turned a woman into a pillar of salt for
looking back, any more than I believe that someone found the iron
nails of the ark on a mountain. Ever hear of rust? And nailed hulls
are a recent invention. Back then they tied the logs together. We
know - we've found ancient ships. The gaps your god has to hide in
are smaller than the spaces between sub-atomic particles, and still
shrinking. When they reach the Planck length, he goes Poof!
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Given that you exist and that you are aware of your situation and
surroundings, you will find yourself in a place which has conditions
exactly suitable to your being there. If the environment was
hostile or incompatible in some important way then you would not be
there in the first place. Therefore the suitability and seeming
perfection of your universe cannot be taken as evidence of anything
more than your existence in it."
- Edward Warren, "The naturalistic fallacy"
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
.

User: "Precision"
Title: Re: Hate Homosexuals?	13 Oct 2006 09:54:18 AM

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:sonti2plep7kbbfa8tvgp2sn2fvhic0e5r@4ax.com...

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:28:32 -0700, "Precision" <precision@usenet.com>
wrote:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:rrrsi21m0amkf527qgt04m05g2voc7u7a2@4ax.com...

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 00:41:52 -0700, "Precision" <precision@usenet.com>
wrote:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:bt7ri2l7iiqdkf2fdmv6776k7kkpp9c7n3@4ax.com...

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:24:44 -0700, "Precision" <precision@usenet.com>
wrote:

[...]
Other theories such
as a similar event to what occurred in Russia in the early 20th century
involving an explosion from a comet hitting the atmosphere have also
been
proposed.

I couldn't resist a follow-up on your comment because there was indeed
evidence.

According to a Discovery Channel documentary on Sodom and Gomorrah

Nothing on a Discovery Channel show can be considered evidence of
anything more than that it was shown on the Discovery Channel.

there
was molten glass found in the sand across the plain where the cities are
believed to have existed. Scientists studying this molten glass said
temperatures on the surface of the sun must have caused such fast melting
of
desert sand. They concluded some celestial event of huge proportions -- a
meteor shower

The speed of melting is controlled more by the amount of heat than by
the temperature. A meteor shower particle doesn't usually even reach
the ground but, since the individual pieces are about the size of a
grain of sand (or smaller), there's almost no heat. At most it would
melt a few molecules of sand.

Do you know what the particles from a meteor are? They're the dust
grains left after the water evaporates. (What do you think the tail
is? Just water and dust.)

or comet explosion directly above the cities in the atmosphere

Comets don't enter the atmosphere, we pass through their tails -
that's the shower. They don't explode and there was no such event at
the time in question anyway. (Which meteor shower? Leonid? Geminid?
These things aren't random occurrences. Orbits tend to be
self-stabilizing. There's a nice shower every August 12th. Look
North after midnight. Don't believe me?
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseids> )

The writers of the OT took these things to be signs of the activities
of a god - he did what he wanted WHEN he wanted. Meteor showers,
solar eclipses ... We KNOW exactly how these things work, and we know
WHEN they occur. Want to know the closest solar eclipse to March 10,
35 AD, visible from Jerusalem? Almost any astronomer could look it up
for you, tell you at exactly what moment, Universal or local time, the
sun started to be occluded and exactly when the occlusion was most
complete. Or in the year 10,000 BC. Or 50,000 years ago. These
things aren't mysteries - we know when they occurred, and far into the
past.

And we know that comets don't blow up on the ground. People who don't
know any science probably look at Tunguska and figure, well a big
comet would cause even more destruction. Tunguska wasn't a comet, so
that statement immediately marks the assertion as not worth even
thinking about. People who think that the Tunguska event was caused
by a comet don't know enough real science to even accidentally come to
the right conclusion.

It would also explain the phenomenon of crystalization of matter around
the immediate
blast zone. Remember Lot's wife?

The crystallization of her body, if I recall correctly from the
documentary
(and I can't recall the particulars), was a scientific phenomenon that
occurs outside a blast zone where temperatures are approaching the sun's
surface temperatures.

It's nonsense. TV shows are entertainment, not science. This sounds
like an "In Search Of" episode.

It's a science-fictiontific phenomenon. The highly technical term for
it in the scientific literature is "make believe". As in "let's make
believe that an explosion could turn a guy's wife into a pillar of
salt".

Comets are giant chunks of "dirty ice" and generate
something approximating a nuclear reaction when hitting the surface of a
planet with an atmopshere.