Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"J Young"
Date:	08 Oct 2006 09:54:51 PM
Object:	Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse

A little bit long, but necessary reading.
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS02E3&f=PG03I03
by: Timothy J. Dailey, Ph. D.
Scandals involving the sexual abuse of under-age boys by homosexual priests
have rocked the Roman Catholic Church. At the same time, defenders of
homosexuality argue that youth organizations such as the Boy Scouts should
be forced to include homosexuals among their adult leaders. Similarly, the
Gay Lesbian and Straight Education Network (GLSEN), a homosexual activist
organization that targets schools, has spearheaded the formation of
"Gay-Straight Alliances" among students. GLSEN encourages homosexual
teachers--even in the youngest grades--to be open about their sexuality, as
a way of providing role models to "gay" students. In addition, laws or
policies banning employment discrimination based on "sexual orientation"
usually make no exception for those who work with children or youth.
Many parents have become concerned that children may be molested, encouraged
to become sexually active, or even "recruited" into adopting a homosexual
identity and lifestyle. Gay activists dismiss such concerns--in part, by
strenuously insisting that there is no connection between homosexuality and
the sexual abuse of children.
However, despite efforts by homosexual activists to distance the gay
lifestyle from pedophilia, there remains a disturbing connection between the
two. This is because, by definition, male homosexuals are sexually attracted
to other males. While many homosexuals may not seek young sexual partners,
the evidence indicates that disproportionate numbers of gay men seek
adolescent males or boys as sexual partners. In this paper we will consider
the following evidence linking homosexuality to pedophilia:
· Pedophiles are invariably males: Almost all sex crimes against children
are committed by men.
· Significant numbers of victims are males: Up to one-third of all sex
crimes against children are committed against boys (as opposed to girls).
· The 10 percent fallacy: Studies indicate that, contrary to the inaccurate
but widely accepted claims of sex researcher Alfred Kinsey, homosexuals
comprise between 1 to 3 percent of the population.
· Homosexuals are overrepresented in child sex offenses: Individuals from
the 1 to 3 percent of the population that is sexually attracted to the same
sex are committing up to one-third of the sex crimes against children.
· Some homosexual activists defend the historic connection between
homosexuality and pedophilia: Such activists consider the defense of
"boy-lovers" to be a legitimate gay rights issue.
· Pedophile themes abound in homosexual literary culture: Gay fiction as
well as serious academic treatises promote "intergenerational intimacy."
MALE HOMOSEXUALS COMMIT A DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF CHILD SEX ABUSE CASES
Homosexual apologists admit that some homosexuals sexually molest children,
but they deny that homosexuals are more likely to commit such offenses.
After all, they argue, the majority of child molestation cases are
heterosexual in nature. While this is correct in terms of absolute numbers,
this argument ignores the fact that homosexuals comprise only a very small
percentage of the population.
The evidence indicates that homosexual men molest boys at rates grossly
disproportionate to the rates at which heterosexual men molest girls. To
demonstrate this it is necessary to connect several statistics related to
the problem of child sex abuse: 1) men are almost always the perpetrator; 2)
up to one-third or more of child sex abuse cases are committed against boys;
3) less than three percent of the population are homosexuals. Thus, a tiny
percentage of the population (homosexual men), commit one-third or more of
the cases of child sexual molestation.
Men Account for Almost All Sexual Abuse of Children Cases
· An essay on adult sex offenders in the book Sexual Offending Against
Children reported:"It is widely believed that the vast majority of sexual
abuse is perpetrated by males and that female sex offenders only account for
a tiny proportion of offences. Indeed, with 3,000 adult male sex offenders
in prison in England and Wales at any one time, the corresponding figure for
female sex offenders is 12!"[1]
· Kee MacFarlane, et al., writing in Sexual Abuse of Young Children:
Evaluation and Treatment report:"The large majority of sexual perpetrators
appear to be males (Herman and Hirschman, 1981; Lindholm and Willey,
1983)."[2]
· A report by the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children
states: "In both clinical and non-clinical samples, the vast majority of
offenders are male."[3]
· A study in the Journal of Sex Research states that "pedophilia does not
exist, or is extremely rare, in women."[4]
A Significant Percentage of Child Sexual Abuse Victims are Boys
· According to the Journal of Child Psychiatry: "It was commonly believed
fifteen years ago that girls were abused in excess of boys in a ratio of
about 9 to 1, but contemporary studies now indicate that the ratio of girls
to boys abused has narrowed remarkably. . . . The majority of community
studies suggest a . . . ratio . . . in the order of 2 to 4 girls to 1
boy."[5] Another study found that "some authors now believe that boys may be
sexually abused as commonly as girls (Groth, 1978; O'Brien, 1980)."[6]
· A study of 457 male sex offenders against children in Journal of Sex and
Marital Therapy found that "approximately one-third of these sexual
offenders directed their sexual activity against males."[7]
Sexual Abuse of Boys is Underreported
The actual percentage of child sexual abuse victims who are boys very likely
exceeds the above estimates. Many researchers echo the view of the Journal
of Child Psychiatry study, which refers to the "under-reporting of the
incidence and prevalence of sexual abuse in boys."[8]
· Dr. Robert Johnson, in Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality, reports: "The
vast majority of cases of male sexual molestation is not reported. As a
result, these young men keep both the incidents and their feelings to
themselves."[9]
· The Department of Justice report on child sexual exploitation explains
why the percentage of boy victims is underestimated: "Adolescent boy victims
are highly likely to deny certain types of sexual activity. . . . They are
embarrassed and ashamed of their behavior and rightfully believe that
society will not understand their victimization. . . . No matter what the
investigator does, most adolescent boys will deny they were victims."[10]
· The Journal of Child Psychiatry adds: "Boys are usually encultured into
an ethos where self-reliance, independence and sexual prowess are valued,
while showing hurt or homosexuality are denigrated. . . . This may lead to
powerful repression or deletion of the experience, with failure to
report."[11]
Homosexuals Comprise Less than 3 Percent of the Population
· Relying upon three large data sets: the General Social Survey, the
National Health and Social Life Survey, and the U.S. census, a recent study
in Demography estimates the number of exclusive male homosexuals in the
general population at 2.5 percent, and the number of exclusive lesbians at
1.4 percent.[12]
· A study of the sexual behavior of men in the United States based on the
National Survey of Men (a nationally representative sample comprised of
3,321 men aged twenty to thirty-nine, published in Family Planning
Perspectives), found that "2 percent of sexually active men aged twenty to
thirty-nine . . . had had any same-gender sexual activity during the last
ten years. Approximately 1 percent of the men (1.3 percent among whites and
0.2 percent among blacks) reported having had exclusively homosexual
activity.[13]
· J. Gordon Muir, writing in The Wall Street Journal, discusses a number of
studies that have found that homosexuals comprise between 1 to 3 percent of
the population.[14]
· In a survey of studies on homosexuals in different populations, the
Archives of Sexual Behavior reported a random sample of Hawaii State
residents interviewed by telephone. The study found "just about 3 percent of
males and 1.2 percent of females as having engaged in same-sex or bisexual
activity."[15] However, this relatively higher number is attributed to the
fact that the study was not limited to exclusive homosexuals, but included
all those who at some time in their lives engaged in same-sex
activities.[16]
Homosexual Pedophiles are Vastly Overrepresented in Child Sex Abuse Cases
Homosexual pedophiles sexually molest children at a far greater rate
compared to the percentage of homosexuals in the general population. A study
in the Journal of Sex Research found, as we have noted above, that
"approximately one-third of [child sex offenders] had victimized boys and
two-thirds had victimized girls." The authors then make a prescient
observation: "Interestingly, this ratio differs substantially from the ratio
of gynephiles (men who erotically prefer physically mature females) to
androphiles (men who erotically prefer physically mature males), which is at
least 20 to 1."[17]
In other words, although heterosexuals outnumber homosexuals by a ratio of
at least 20 to 1, homosexual pedophiles commit about one-third of the total
number of child sex offenses.
Similarly, the Archives of Sexual Behavior also noted that homosexual
pedophiles are significantly overrepresented in child sex offence cases:
The best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2 to 4 percent of men
attracted to adults prefer men (ACSF Investigators, 1992; Billy et al.,1993;
Fay et al.,1989; Johnson et al.,1992); in contrast, around 25 to 40 percent
of men attracted to children prefer boys (Blanchard et al.,1999; Gebhard et
al.,1965; Mohr et al.,1964). Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 6 to
20 times higher among pedophiles."[18]
The stark imbalance between homosexual and heterosexual child
molestationswas confirmed in the Archives of Sexual Behavior study itself,
which divided 260 pedophile participants into three groups: "152
heterosexual pedophiles (men with offenses or self-reported attractions
involving girls only), 43 bisexual pedophiles (boys and girls), and 65
homosexual pedophiles (boys only)."[19] In other words, 25 percent of the
offenders were homosexual pedophiles--or 41 percent if those who molest
girls as well as boys are included.
Other studies report an unusually high percentage of child molestations by
homosexual pedophiles:
· A study on pedophilia in the Psychiatric Journal of the University of
Ottawa reported: "According to the literature, findings of a two-to-one
ratio of heterosexual to homosexual pedophiles have been documented."[20]
· The Journal of Sex Research reports a study that included "199 offenders
against female children and 96 offenders against male children. . . . This
would indicate a proportional prevalence of 32 percent of homosexual
offenders against children."[21]
· A study of male child sex offenders in Child Abuse and Neglect found that
fourteen percent targeted only males, and a further 28 percent chose males
as well as females as victims, thus indicating that 42 percent of male
pedophiles engaged in homosexual molestation.[22]
ARE MEN WHO MOLEST BOYS REALLY 'HOMOSEXUALS'? Gay Apologists Insist on a
Simplistic Stereotype of Pedophilia
Central to the attempts to separate homosexuality from pedophilia is the
claim that pedophiles cannot, by definition, be considered homosexuals.
Relying upon a questionable methodology[23], the gay advocacy organization
Human Rights Campaign published a "Fact Sheet on Sexual Orientation and
Child Abuse," that states: "A sexual abuser who molests a child of the same
sex is usually not considered homosexual."[24]
The basis for this claim is the view that pedophiles who molest boys cannot
be considered homosexual if that individual has at any time been married or
sexually involved with women.
'Homosexual Pedophiles': A Clinical Term
The fact is, however, that the terms "homosexual" and "pedophile" are not
mutually exclusive: they describe two intersecting types of sexual
attraction. Webster's Dictionary defines "homosexual" as someone who is
sexually attracted to persons of the same sex. "Pedophile" is defined as "an
adult who is sexually attracted to young children." The former definition
refers to the gender of the desired sexual object, while the latter refers
to the age of the desired sexual object.
A male "homosexual pedophile," then, is defined as someone who is generally
(but not exclusively, see below) sexually attracted to boys, while a female
"homosexual pedophile" is sexually attracted to girls.[25]
The term "homosexual pedophile" was first used in the early 20th century by
the Viennese psychiatrist Dr. Richard von Krafft-Ebing, who pioneered the
systematic study of sexual deviance. Krafft-Ebing described pedophiles as
heterosexually, homosexually or bisexually oriented.[26] This division has
been accepted by pedophiles themselves,[27] and is well attested in the
literature:
· A study of child molesters in Behavior Research and Therapy found that "a
homosexual and a heterosexual subgroup can be delineated among these
offenders."[28]
· The Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy published a study on the same
topic, which discussed "the proportional prevalences of heterosexual and
homosexual pedophilia."[29] The study commented on a study that found that
"the percentage of the homosexual pedophiles would be 45.8." Even adjusted
downward for exhibitionists, "this would still indicate a much higher
percentage (34 percent) of homosexuals among pedophiles than among men who
prefer physically mature partners."[30]
· In a review of studies on pedophilia, the Psychiatric Journal of the
University of Ottawa concluded: "The findings of previous studies report
that pedophiles can be divided into heterosexual and homosexual pedophiles
according to their erotic preference. . . . This was confirmed in this
recent study."[31] The article classified homosexual pedophilia into three
types: the socially inadequate homosexual pedophile, the intrusive
homosexual pedophile, and the undifferentiated homosexual pedophile.[32]
· A study of pedophiles in Behavior Research and Therapy concluded: "The
second, and perhaps the most important observation we made, is that a
homosexual and a heterosexual subgroup can be delineated among these
offenders. . . . Categorizing them in this way revealed important
differences in the pattern of their sexual preferences."[33]
· The International Journal of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology
refers to homosexual pedophiles as a "distinct group." The victims of
homosexual pedophiles "were more likely to be strangers, that they were more
likely to have engaged in paraphiliac behavior separate from that involved
in the offence, and that they were more likely to have past convictions for
sexual offences. . . . Other studies [showed a] greater risk of reoffending
than those who had offended against girls" and that the "recidivism rate for
male-victim offenders is approximately twice that for female-victim
offenders."[34]
Homosexuals and Homosexual Pedophiles Engage in a Wide Variety of Sexual
Behavior that Belies Simplistic Categories
Despite this evidence, in their efforts to divorce homosexuality from
pedophilia, homosexual apologists insist on a rigid, narrow definition of
the terms "homosexual" and "pedophile" that permits no overlap of the terms.
They deny that homosexuals are attracted in inordinate numbers to boys. They
also claim that pedophiles cannot be classified as "homosexual" if at any
time they have had sexual relations with women.
However, such a narrow definition does not do justice to the complex nature
of pedophilia. Researchers have long been aware that pedophiles exhibit a
wide variety of sexual attractions and behavior--often to draw attention
away from their primary lust for boys. A study on sex offenders in the
International Journal of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology notes
that "the reason child sexual abusers are successful at remaining undetected
is because they do not fit a stereotype."[35]
The data indicates that both homosexuality and pedophilia are intersecting
categories that admit to a wide variety of sexual behavior:
Homosexual Males are Sexually Attracted to Underage Boys
· A study in Archives of Sexual Behavior found that homosexual men are
attracted to young males. The study compared the sexual age preferences of
heterosexual men, heterosexual women, homosexual men, and lesbians. The
results showed that, in marked contrast to the other three categories, "all
but 9 of the 48 homosexual men preferred the youngest two male age
categories," which included males as young as age fifteen.[36]
· In The Gay Report, by homosexual researchers Karla Jay and Allen Young,
the authors report data showing that 73 percent of homosexuals surveyed had
at some time had sex with boys sixteen to nineteen years of age or
younger."[37]
Conversely, Homosexual Pedophiles are Often Attracted to Adult Males
· A study of sex offenders against male children in Behavior Research and
Therapy found that male homosexual pedophiles are sexually attracted to
"males of all ages." Compared to non-offenders, the offenders showed
"greater arousal" to slides of nude males as old as twenty-four: "As a
group, the child molesters responsed [sp] with moderate sexual arousal . . .
to the nude males of all ages."[38]
· A study of Canadians imprisoned for pedophilia in the Journal of
Interpersonal Violence noted that some of the adult male offenders engaged
in homosexual acts with adult males.[39]
· Many pedophiles, in fact, consider themselves to be homosexual. A study
of 229 convicted child molesters in Archives of Sexual Behavior found that
"eighty-six percent of offenders against males described themselves as
homosexual or bisexual."[40]
· Fr. John Harvey, founder and director of Courage, a support ministry for
Catholics who struggle with same-sex attraction, explains that "the
pedophile differs from the ordinary homosexual in that the former admires
boyishness in the object of his affections, while the latter admires
manliness."[41] However, the categories are not completely separate:
While granting that the majority of homosexuals are not aroused by young
boys, the distinction between homosexuality and homosexual pedophilia is not
quite absolute. In some cases the interest oscillates between young
adolescents and adults, in others between boys and adolescents; in
exceptional cases a man may be interested in boys at one time and adults at
another.[42]
Many Pedophiles are Attracted to Women, Marry, and Have Children
Gay activists insist that pedophilia has nothing to do with homosexuality
because pedophiles are only sexually interested in children, whereas
homosexuals only have sexual relations with adults. We have already seen
that this stereotypical view is not correct with regard to homosexuals.
There is also abundant evidence demonstrating that, while primarily
interested in children, pedophiles nevertheless exhibit a wide variety of
sexual behaviors, including relationships with women:
· A study in Child Abuse and Neglect found that 48 percent of the offenders
either were married or had been married at some time.[43]
· The Journal of Interpersonal Violence studied the sexual preferences of
male pedophiles who sexually abused children. When they compared the sexual
response of the pedophiles with the control group, they found, unexpectedly:
"Surprisingly, the two groups did not differ in their response to the nude
female stimuli."[44]
· A study in the Psychiatric Journal of the University of Ottawa reported
that "most of the middle-aged pedophiles have had significant adult sexual
activity."[45] Fifty-eight percent of the pedophiles in one study had at
least one child, while other research indicated that "more than two-thirds
of the married pedophiles in their sample had children, with an average of
two to three children per subject."[46]
· A report by the Department of Justice addressed the devious stratagems of
pedophiles, who will go to great lengths to conceal their true desires:
"Preferential sex offenders may be 'pillars of the community' and are often
described as 'nice guys.' They almost always have a means of access to
children (for example, through marriage, neighborhood, or occupation.)"[47]
Thus, the evidence shows that homosexual pedophiles cannot be narrowly
defined as individuals who are solely attracted to underage boys. In fact
there is considerable overlap between homosexuality and pedophilia.
PEDOPHILIA IN GAY CULTURE The Historical Connection between Pedophilia and
the Gay Rights Movement
David Thorstad is a homosexual activist and historian of the gay rights
movement.[48] He is a former president of New York's Gay Activists Alliance
(GAA), a prototype activist group founded in December 1969. The GAA at its
inception opposed age of consent laws, which prohibited adults from having
sex with children.[49] Thorstad is also a pedophile and founding member of
the North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMBLA).
Thorstad argues that there is a natural and undeniable connection between
homosexuality and pedophilia. He expresses bitterness that the gay rights
movement has, in his view, abandoned pedophilia. Thorstad writes:
"Boy-lovers were involved in the gay movement from the beginning, and their
presence was tolerated. Gay youth groups encouraged adults to attend their
dances. . . . There was a mood of tolerance, even joy at discovering the
myriad of lifestyles within the gay and lesbian subculture."[50]
The inaugural issue of the Gay Community News in 1979 published a "Statement
to the Gay Liberation Movement on the Issue of Man/Boy Love," which
challenged the movement to return to a vision of sexual liberation. It
argued that "the ultimate goal of gay liberation is the achievement of
sexual freedom for all--not just equal rights for 'lesbian and gay men,' but
also freedom of sexual expression for young people and children."
In the early years there was some reluctance to accept pedophilia, primarily
among feminist and lesbian activist groups. In March 1979 the Lesbian
Feminist Liberation (LFL) accusing "so-called Man/Boy Lovers" of "attempting
to legitimize sex between children and adults. . . . Feminists easily
recognize this as the latest attempt to make palatable the sexual
exploitation of children." The coalition went on record as opposing "the
sexual abuse of children by heterosexual or homosexual persons."[51]
Despite this opposition, Thorstad claims that by 1985 homosexual pedophiles
had won acceptance within the gay movement. He cites Jim Kepner, then
curator of the International Gay and Lesbian Archives in Los Angeles: "A
point I've been trying to make is that if we reject the boylovers in our
midst today we'd better stop waving the banner of the Ancient Greeks, of
Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, Oscar Wilde, Walt Whitman, Horatio Alger,
and Shakespeare. We'd better stop claiming them as part of our heritage
unless we are broadening our concept of what it means to be gay today."[52]
In 1985 NAMBLA was admitted as a member in New York's council of Lesbian and
Gay Organizations as well as the International Gay Association--now the
International Lesbian and Gay Association (ILGA). In the mid-1990's ILGA's
association with NAMBLA and other pedophile groups cost the organization
it's status as a Non-Governmental Organization in the United Nations.
ILGA's renewed attempt to gain admittance to the UN was rejected again in
April 2002 because the organization "did not document that it had purged
pedophile groups such as [NAMBLA]." The Washington Times reports that
Ishtiag H. Anrabi, Pakistani delegate to the UN Economic and Social Council,
expressed concern that ILGA was continuing to be secretive about ties with
pedophile groups: "For more than a year, the ILGA has refused to provide
documentation or allow review of its membership list to demonstrate that
pedophilia groups have been expelled."[53]
Pedophile Themes Abound in Gay Literature
The late "beat" poet Allen Ginsberg illustrates the seamless connection
between homosexuality and pedophilia. Many know Ginsberg as an illustrious
"out" homosexual poet: fewer are aware that he was also a pedophile.
Biographer Raymond-Jean Frontain refers to Ginsberg's publications in both
NAMBLA Bulletin and NAMBLA Journal. He discusses how Ginsberg's biographers
failed to discuss his poems that contained pederastic themes:
Although both Shumacher and Barry Miles (Ginsberg's initial biographer)
frankly discuss Ginsberg's sexual politics, neither refers to his
involvement with the controversial North American Man/Boy Love Association.
.. . . I reread Collected Poems and Ginsberg's two subsequent collections,
surprised by the pattern of references to anal intercourse and to pederasty
that emerged.[54]
Ginsberg was one of the first of a growing number of homosexual writers who
cater to the fascination with pedophilia in the gay community. Mary
Eberstadt, writing in the Weekly Standard, documents how the taboo against
sex with children continues to erode--with the impetus coming from
homosexual writers.[55]
Revealingly, the examples she provides of pedophilia in current literature
come from gay fiction. Eberstadt cites the Village Voice, which states that
"Gay fiction is rich with idyllic accounts of 'intergenerational
relationships,' as such affairs are respectfully called these days."[56]
Other examples of pedophilia-themed gay fiction include:
· In the introduction of the "mainstream" homosexual anthology Penguin Book
on International Gay Writing, David Leavitt notes matter-of-factly that
"Another 'forbidden' topic from which European writers seem less likely to
shrink is the love of older men for young boys." Leavitt praises one book
with a pedophilic theme included in the anthology as a "coolly assured
narrative [which] compels the reader to imagine the world from a perspective
he might ordinarily condemn."[57]
· Several texts included in another anthology, The Gay Canon: Great Books
Every Gay Man Should Read, feature scenes of man-boy sex. One such book is
praised as "an operatic adventure into the realms of love, personality,
ambition and art . . . a pure joy to read." The protagonist is "a
pedophile's dream: the mind of a man in the body of a boy."[58] Another
novel which includes graphic descriptions of sexual violence against boys is
said to "[tear] straight to the heart of one of the greatest sources,
community-wide, of 1990's gay angst: What to do with men who love boys?"[59]
· Yet another anthology of homosexual fiction, A History of Gay Literature:
The Male Tradition, published by Yale University Press, includes "a longish
chapter on 'Boys and Boyhood' which is a seemingly definitive account of
pro-pedophile literary works."[60] The author appears more concerned with
the feelings and emotions of the man than with his boy victim. He explores
the question of "whether or not you regard [having sex with boys] as a way
of retreating from life or, on the contrary, as a way of engaging with it at
its most honest and least corrupted level."[61]
· A significant percentage of books that have appeared on the Gay Men's
Press fiction bestseller list contain pedophilia themes, including:
Some Boys: described as a "memoir of a lover of boys" that "evokes the
author's young friends across four decades."[62]
For a Lost Soldier: the story of a sexual relationship between a soldier and
an eleven-year-old boy, set during World War II.[63]
A Good Start, Considering: yet another story about an eleven-year-old boy
(!) who suffers sexual abuse but is rescued by a teenager who "offers him
love and affection"[64]
Terre Haute: billed as "A poetic novel of sexual awakening in the American
Midwest, tracing an adolescent's journey from introspection to perilous
desire."
Shiva and Arun: the story of two Indian adolescents who "discover early on
the joys of sex."
Teardrops on My Drum: barefoot kids in 1920's Liverpool search for
"adventure, love and sex."
Pro-pedophilia Publications
Recent years have seen the appearance of publications that lend a scholarly
veneer to the fascination with pedophilia in the gay community. Such
publications attempt to make the case for "intergenerational intimacy." The
nation's largest gay publisher, Alyson Publications, which distributes
Daddy's Roommate and other homosexual books that promote homosexuality to
children, publishes books advocating man-boy sex, including:
· Paedophilia: The Radical Case, which contains detailed information on how
to engage in sexual relations with young boys.[65]
· The Age Taboo, another defense of pedophiliawhich claims: "Boy-lovers . .
.. are not child molesters. The child abusers are . . . parents who force
their staid morality onto the young people in their custody."[66]
The Journal of Homosexuality and Pedophilia
The Journal of Homosexuality is viewed as the premier "mainstream"
English-language publication of the gay movement. One prominent editor is
John DeCecco, a psychologist at San Francisco State University who also
serves on the editorial board of the Dutch pedophile journal Paidika. It is
therefore not surprising to see pedophilia promoted on its pages.
In 1990 the Journal of Homosexuality published a series of essays on
pedophilia that were eventually published as Male Inter-Generational
Intimacy:Historical, Socio-Psychological, and Legal Perspectives, edited by
pedophile Edward Brongersma. None of the essays offered any substantive
criticism of pedophilia: most blatantly promoted man-boy love as the natural
right of homosexuals.
In 1999 Helmut Graupner, wrote an article on pedophilia in the Journal of
Homosexuality, in which he claims: "Man/boy and woman/girl relations without
doubt are same-sex relations and they do constitute an aspect of gay and
lesbian life." Graupner argues that, as such, consensual sexual relations
between adult homosexuals and youths as young as fourteen qualifies as a
"gay rights issue."[67]
The fascination with pedophilia continues to be a cause of concern even
within the gay community. Lesbian columnist Paula Martinac, writing in the
homosexual newspaper Washington Blade, states:
[S]ome gay men still maintain that an adult who has same-sex relations with
someone under the legal age of consent is on some level doing the kid a
favor by helping to bring him or her 'out.' It's not pedophilia, this
thinking goes--pedophilia refers only to little kids. Instead, adult-youth
sex is viewed as an important aspect of gay culture, with a history dating
back to 'Greek love' of ancient times. This romanticized version of
adult-youth sexual relations has been a staple of gay literature and has
made appearances, too, in gay-themed films.[68]
Martinac adds that "When some gay men venerate adult-youth sex as affirming
while simultaneously declaring 'We're not pedophiles,' they send an
inconsistent message to society. . . . The lesbian and gay community will
never be successful in fighting the pedophile stereotype until we all stop
condoning sex with young people."[69]
VICTIM'S TURNED VICTIMIZERS: THE CONSEQUENCES OF HOMOSEXUAL CHILD ABUSE
The steadfast denial of the disturbing ties with pedophilia within the
homosexual movement is no purely academic matter. Perhaps the most tragic
aspect of the homosexual-pedophile connection is the fact that men who
sexually molest boys all too often lead their victims into homosexuality and
pedophilia. The evidence indicates that a high percentage of homosexuals and
pedophiles were themselves sexually abused as children:
· The Archives of Sexual Behavior reports: "One of the most salient
findings of this study is that 46 percent of homosexual men and 22 percent
of homosexual women reported having been molested by a person of the same
gender. This contrasts to only 7 percent of heterosexual men and 1 percent
of heterosexual women reporting having been molested by a person of the same
gender."[70]
· A study of 279 homosexual/bisexual men with AIDS and control patients
discussed in the Journal of the American Medical Association reported: "More
than half of both case and control patients reported a sexual act with a
male by age 16 years, approximately 20 percent by age 10 years."[71]
· Noted child sex abuse expert David Finkelhor found that "boys victimized
by older men were over four times more likely to be currently engaged in
homosexual activity than were non-victims. The finding applied to nearly
half the boys who had had such an experience. . . . Further, the adolescents
themselves often linked their homosexuality to their sexual victimization
experiences."[72]
· A study in the International Journal of Offender Therapy and Comparative
Criminology found:"In the case of childhood sexual experiences prior to the
age of fourteen, 40 percent (of the pedophile sample) reported that they had
engaged 'very often' in sexual activity with an adult, with 28 percent
stating that this type of activity had occurred 'sometimes'"[73]
· A National Institute of Justice report states that "the odds that a
childhood sexual abuse victim will be arrested as an adult for any sex crime
is 4.7 times higher than for people . . . who experienced no victimization
as children."[74]
· A Child Abuse and Neglect study found that 59 percent of male child sex
offenders had been "victim of contact sexual abuse as a child."[75]
· The Journal of Child Psychiatry noted that "there is a tendency among boy
victims to recapitulate their own victimization, only this time with
themselves in the role of perpetrator and someone else the victim."[76]
The circle of abuse is the tragic legacy of the attempts by homosexuals to
legitimize having sex with boys. For too many boys it is already too late to
protect them from those who took advantage of their need for love and
attention. All too many later perpetrate the abuse by themselves engaging in
the sexual abuse of boys. Only by exposing the lies, insincere denials, and
deceptions--including those wrapped in scholastic garb--of those who prey
sexually on children, can we hope to build a wall of protection around the
helpless children among us.
END NOTES
1. Dawn Fisher, "Adult Sex Offenders: Who are They? Why and How Do They Do
It?" in Tony Morrison, et al., eds., Sexual Offending Against Children
(London: Routledge, 1994), p. 11.
2. Kee MacFarlane, et al., Sexual Abuse of Young Children: Evaluation and
Treatment (New York: The Guilford Press, 1986), p. 9.
3. John Briere, et al.,eds., The APSAC Handbook on Child Maltreatment
(Thousand Oaks, California: Sage Publications, 1996), pp. 52, 53.
4. Kurt Freund, et al., "Pedophilia and Heterosexuality vs. Homosexuality,"
Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy 10 (Fall 1984): 198; See also Freund, K,
and Watson, R. J., "The Proportions of Heterosexual and Homosexual
Paedophiles among Sex Offenders against Children: an Exploratory Study,"
Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy 18 (1992): 34.
5. Bill Watkins and Arnon Bentovim, "The Sexual Abuse of Male Children and
Adolescents: A Review of Current Research," Journal of Child Psychiatry 33
(1992); in Byrgen Finkelman, Sexual Abuse (New York: Garland Publishing,
1995), p. 300.
6. MacFarlane, p. 9.
7. Kurt Freund, et al., "Pedophilia and Heterosexuality vs. Homosexuality,"
Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy 10 (1984): 197. "The proportional
prevalence of offenders against male children in this group of 457 offenders
against children was 36 percent." See also, Kurt Freund, et al.,
"Heterosexuality, Homosexuality, and Erotic Age Preference," "Approximately
one-third of these individuals had victimized boys and two-thirds had
victimized girls. This finding is consistent with the proportions reported
in two earlier studies," p. 107.
8. Watkins and Bentovim, p. 315.
9. Robert L. Johnson, "Long-term Effects of Sexual Abuse in Boys," Medical
Aspects of Human Sexuality (September 1988): 38.
10. "Understanding and Investigating Child Sexual Exploitation," (U.S.
Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, 1997), p. 12.
11. Watkins and Bentovim, p. 302.
12. Dan Black, et al., "Demographics of the Gay and Lesbian Population in
the United States: Evidence from Available Systematic Data Sources,"
Demography 37 (May 2000): 141.
13. John O. G. Billy, et al., "The Sexual Behavior of Men in the United
States," Family Planning Perspectives 25 (March/April 1993): 58.
14. J. Gordon Muir, "Homosexuals and the 10 percent Fallacy," Wall Street
Journal (March 31, 1993).
15. Milton Diamond, "Homosexuality and Bisexuality in Different
Populations," Archives of Sexual Behavior 22 (1993):300.
16. Ibid. Significantly, a number of studies that were surveyed, and which
skewed the overall percentages of homosexuals upwards, included such vague
definers as those having had "any homosexual body contact." In contrast, one
study that was limited to self-identifying homosexuals found that less than
2 percent of the male respondents considered their "sexual orientation" to
be homosexual, p. 293.
17. Freund, "Heterosexuality, Homosexuality, and Erotic Age Preference," p.
107. In this and previous studies, Freund claims that homosexuals are no
more likely than heterosexuals to be attracted to children (p. 115).
However, Silverthorn, et al., mentions the limitations of studies by Freund
and others: "Studies of homosexual male preferences are also limited. . . .
The Freund et al.(1973) study was possibly compromised because the
homosexual men used in the study were selected to be sexually attracted to
adults, but not teenaged, males. The Bailey et al. (1994) study was limited
in that it did not present participants with objective stimuli but simply
asked participants to report what age of sexual partner they preferred . . .
the Jankowiak et al. (1992) study . . . was limited in two ways: the
homosexual male participants had a limited age range of 'middle-aged
professionals' and the stimuli presented to participants were also of a
limited age range ('university to middle-aged')." Silverthorn attempted to
correct these deficiencies, and in his study found that homosexuals
"preferred younger partners than those who preferred female
partners"--including those as young as fifteen. Zebulon A. Silverthorne and
Vernon L. Quinsey, "Sexual Partner Age Preferences of Homosexual and
Heterosexual Men and Women," Archives of Sexual Behavior 29 (February 2000):
67-76.
18. Ray Blanchard, et al., "Fraternal Birth Order and Sexual Orientation in
Pedophiles," Archives of Sexual Behavior 29 (2000): 464.
19. Ibid., p. 471.
20. John M. W. Bradford, et al., "The Heterogeneity/Homogeneity of
Pedophilia," Psychiatric Journal of the University of Ottawa 13 (1988): 225.
Elsewhere the study notes: "Researchers have variously estimated the
incidence of homosexual pedophilia between 19 percent and 33 percent of
reported molestations," p. 218.
21. Freund, "Pedophilia and Heterosexuality vs. Homosexuality," p. 197.
22. Michele Elliott, "Child Sexual Abuse Prevention: What Offenders Tell
Us," Child Abuse and Neglect 19 (1995): 581.
23. The fact sheet discusses a study by Carole Jenny, et al., which claims
that only 2 of 269 child molesters could be identified as gay or lesbian.
Carole Jenny, et al., "Are Children at Risk for Sexual Abuse by
Homosexuals?" Pediatrics 94 (July 1994): 41-44. However, the Jenny study
utilized an atypical research technique: the reported child molesters
themselves were not interviewed. Instead, the researchers relied upon the
subjective opinions of "informants" who accompanied the child victim to the
medical clinic. The qualifications for such "informants" to determine the
sexual behavior of the accused molester were not established. However, once
it is "determined" beforehand that pedophiles who molest boys cannot be
considered gay or homosexual if they have had sexual relations with women,
it is a foregone conclusion that few if any of the pedophiles -who often
have girlfriends, are married, and have children - will be labeled
homosexual. The Jenny study used this narrow profile despite the fact that
the study itself found that 22 percent of the perpetrators were of the same
sex as the victim. In these cases the molesters clearly engaged in
homosexual sexual molestation.
24. "Fact Sheet on Sexual Orientation and Child Abuse," Human Rights
Campaign (2001):available at:
http://hrc.grassroots.com/family/soandchildabusefact/. The fact sheet
discusses a study by Carole Jenny, et al., which claims that only 2 of 269
child molesters could be identified as gay or lesbian. Carole Jenny, et al.,
"Are Children at Risk for Sexual Abuse by Homosexuals?" pp. 41-44. However,
the Jenny study utilized an atypical research technique. The reported child
molesters themselves were not interviewed; instead, the researchers relied
upon the subjective opinions of "informants" who accompanied the child
victim to the medical clinic.
25. Note that the well-accepted definition of "child" as someone between
infancy and the age of maturation is employed here.
26. Bradford, p.218.
27. "[Pedophiles] can be of either sex or any [sexual] orientation, i.e.,
homosexual, heterosexual or bisexual." Paedophilia:Some Questions and
Answers (London: Paedophilic Informational Exchange, 1978); quoted in Seth
L. Goldstein, "Investigating Child Sexual Exploitation:Law Enforcement's
Role," FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin 53 (January 1984): 23.
28. W. L. Marshall, et al., "Sexual Offenders against Male Children: Sexual
Preferences," Behavior Research and Therapy 26 (March 1988): 390.
29. Freund, "Pedophilia and Heterosexuality vs. Homosexuality," p.194.
30. Ibid., p. 197.
31. Bradford, et al., p. 217.
32. Ibid., pp. 218, 219.
33. Marshall, p. 390.
34. James Bickley and Anthony R. Beech, "Classifying Child Abusers: Its
Relevance to Theory and Clinical Practice," International Journal of
Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology 45 (2001): 56.
35. Krisin A. Danni, et al., "An Analysis of Predicators of Child Sex
Offender Types Using Presentence Investigation Reports," International
Journal of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology 44 (2000): 491.
36. Zebulon A. Silverthorne and Vernon L. Quinsey, "Sexual Partner Age
Preferences of Homosexual and Heterosexual Men and Women," p.73.
37. Karla Jay and Allen Young, The Gay Report: Lesbians and Gay Men Speak
Out about Sexual Experiences and Lifestyles (New York: Summit Books, 1979),
p. 275
38. Marshall, "Sexual Offenders against Male Children: Sexual Preferences,"
p. 383.
39. W. L. Marshall, et al., "Early Onset and Deviant Sexuality in Child
Molesters," Journal of Interpersonal Violence 6 (1991): 323-336.
40. W. D. Erickson, "Behavior Patterns of Child Molesters," Archives of
Sexual Behavior 17 (1988): 83.
41. John F. Harvey, O.S.F.S., The Homosexual Person: New Thinking in
Pastoral Care (San Francisco: Ignatius Press:1987): 221
42. Ibid., p. 219.
43. Elliott, p. 581.
44. Marshall, "Sexual Offenders against Male Children: Sexual Preferences,"
p. 383.
45. Bradford, p. 219.
46. Bradford, p. 224.
47. "Understanding and Investigating Child Sexual Exploitation," p. 5.
48. Thorstad is co-author, with John Lauritsen, of The early homosexual
rights movement (1864-1935) (New York: Times Change Press, 1974).
49. David Thorstad, "May/Boy Love and the American Gay Movement" Journal of
Homosexuality 20 (1990): 252.
50. Ibid., p. 253.
51. Ibid., p. 258.
52. Ibid., p. 266.
53. George Archibald, "U.N. Group Keeps Ban on Gay Lobby," Washington Times
(May 1, 2002).
54. Raymond-Jean Frontain, "The Works of Allen Ginsberg," Journal of
Homosexuality 34 (1997): 109.
55. Mary Eberstadt, "'Pedophilia Chic' Reconsidered" The Weekly Standard 6
(January 8, 2001).
56. Ibid., p. 21.
57. Ibid., p. 22.
58. Ibid.
59. Ibid.
60. Ibid., p. 23.
61. Ibid. Emphasis added by Eberstadt.
62. Ibid., p. 23.
63. Ibid.
64. From the Gay Men's Press website:
www.gmppubs.co.uk/cgi-bin/web_store/web_store.cgi
65. Tom O'Carroll, Paedophilia: The Radical Case (Boston:Alyson
Publications, 1982).
66. Daniel Tsang, editor, The Age Taboo: Gay Male Sexuality, Power, and
Consent (Boston: Alyson Publications ; London : Gay Men's Press, 1981), p.
144.
67. Helmut Graupner, "Love Versus Abuse: Crossgenerational Sexual Relations
of Minors: A Gay Rights Issue?" Journal of Homosexuality 37 (1999): 23, 26.
68. Paula Martinac, "Mixed Messages on Pedophilia Need to be Clarified,
Unified," Washington Blade (March 15, 2002).
69. Ibid.
70. Marie, E. Tomeo, et al., "Comparative Data of Childhood and Adolescence
Molestation in Heterosexual and Homosexual Persons," Archives of Sexual
Behavior 30 (2001): 539.
71. Harry W. Haverkos, et al., "The Initiation of Male Homosexual Behavior,"
The Journal of the American Medical Association 262 (July 28, 1989): 501.
72. Watkins and Bentovim, p. 316.
73. Gary A. Sawle, Jon Kear-Colwell, "Adult Attachment Style and Pedophilia:
A Developmental Perspective," International Journal of Offender Therapy and
Comparative Criminology 45 (February 2001):6.
74. Cathy Spatz Widom, "Victims of Childhood Sexual Abuse - Later Criminal
Consequences," Victims of Childhood Sexual Abuse Series:NIJ Research in
Brief, (March 1995): 6.
75. Elliott, p. 582.
76. Watkins, p. 319. Watkins mentions several studies confirming that
between 19 percent and 61 percent of male sex abusers had previously been
sexually abused themselves.
--
----------
J Yöung
youngopinions@aol.com
.

User: "Strife767"
Title: Re: Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse	16 Oct 2006 11:12:16 PM

On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 00:01:46 -0400, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 02:04:31 GMT, Strife767 <strife767@gmail.com>
wrote:

On top of that, _quite_ a few guys have no problem admitting that
mid-teens are sexually attractive.

I think all men find them attractive, many just have a problem
admitting it.

More like "few." Most men seem completely unashamed of it.
--
____________ _____________ __________________
__ ___/_ /__________(_)__ __/____/__ /_ ___/__ /
_____ \_ __/_ ___/_ /__ /_ _ _ \_ /_ __ \__ /
____/ // /_ _ / _ / _ __/ / __/ / / /_/ /_ /
/____/ \__/ /_/ /_/ /_/ \___//_/ \____/ /_/
Skeptic, atheist...and somehow an optimist. Go figure.
I want to change the world.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse	16 Oct 2006 04:07:36 PM

willow wrote:

usenet_trash@yahoo.de wrote:

wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

On 9 Oct 2006 14:44:58 -0700,

wrote:

Sure enough, he was killed a few months ago. Justice.

Feel the Christian love. Hypocrite.

Death to the gueer ***** pedophile rapist. Apparently you support
him.

He merely points out that your behaviour differs from the behaviour of
your Jesus. And btw pedophilia does not necessarily have to be wrong.
Violence or extortion is what is wrong with that.

When is pedophilia not necessarily wrong? When you are
the pedofreak perpetrator? You poor, sick, wretched pedogeek.

It does not make me a pedophile when I argue that pedophilia is not
necessarily wrong. Besides, you have not yet said why pedophilia is
wrong. What exactly is wrong with that? At which age do you think
people should be allowed sexual behaviour?
.

User: "willow"
Title: Re: Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse	16 Oct 2006 07:01:00 PM

wrote:

willow wrote:

wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

On 9 Oct 2006 14:44:58 -0700,

wrote:

Sure enough, he was killed a few months ago. Justice.

Feel the Christian love. Hypocrite.

Death to the gueer ***** pedophile rapist. Apparently you support
him.

He merely points out that your behaviour differs from the behaviour of
your Jesus. And btw pedophilia does not necessarily have to be wrong.
Violence or extortion is what is wrong with that.

When is pedophilia not necessarily wrong? When you are
the pedofreak perpetrator? You poor, sick, wretched pedogeek.

You imply that you are not necessarily a pedophile, but you
ask what exactly is wrong with that (pedophilia)? That's
absolutely incredible. You are comfortable with a sexually
mature adult penetrating, forcing oral sex on, masturbating, or
involving in any type of sexual activity, a child, who is sexually
and emotionally immature?
Are you also comfortable with a child experiencing pain, trauma,
humiliation, fear, HIV, STD's, etc. from such an experience? Some
children, who are assaulted by pedofreaks grow up to help swell
their perverted ranks. That doesn't bother you though, does it?
Life can be difficult enough for children without some montrous
freak introducing him/her to the realm of adult sexual behavior.
A few children experience pleasure. Nevertheless, why
shouldn't innocence be retained until a person is of an age when
he/she is sexually and emotionally mature enough to engage in
sex with someone to whom that person chooses to lose his/her
innocence a/o virginity?
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse	16 Oct 2006 08:00:33 PM

On 16 Oct 2006 17:01:00 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:

usenet_trash@yahoo.de wrote:
Are you also comfortable with a child experiencing pain, trauma,
humiliation, fear, HIV, STD's, etc. from such an experience? Some
children, who are assaulted by pedofreaks grow up to help swell
their perverted ranks. That doesn't bother you though, does it?
Life can be difficult enough for children without some montrous
freak introducing him/her to the realm of adult sexual behavior.
A few children experience pleasure. Nevertheless, why
shouldn't innocence be retained until a person is of an age when
he/she is sexually and emotionally mature enough to engage in
sex with someone to whom that person chooses to lose his/her
innocence a/o virginity?

So the question remains - at what age do you think a person "is
sexually and emotionally mature enough to engage in sex with someone
to whom that person chooses to lose his/her innocence a/o virginity"?
Menstruation, for a woman, as our ancestors figured? Some arbitrary
year? 13 (as in some states)? 17? 21? Are all 21 year olds
emotionally mature enough? How do we choose?
(I'm not defending pedophilia, I'm asking how we choose.)
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid
consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and
ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who
works on the basis of reward and punishment. "
- Letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein Archive 59-215
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
.

User: "ScottyFLL"
Title: Re: Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse	16 Oct 2006 09:12:47 PM

Al Klein wrote:

I'm gonna say 30. :-)
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse	16 Oct 2006 11:02:58 PM

On 16 Oct 2006 19:12:47 -0700, "ScottyFLL" <ScottyFLL@gmail.com>
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

I'm gonna say 30. :-)

I've met 30 year olds who aren't mature enough to be allowed to go out
of the house alone.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Never in human history have such genocide and cruelty been
witnessed. Such a genocide was never seen in the time of the pharaohs nor
of Hitler nor of Mussolini."
- Mehmet Elkatmi, head of Turkish parliament's human rights commission
on Bush's genocide in the Iraq war. 11-28-2004
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
.

User: "willow"
Title: Re: Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse	17 Oct 2006 09:28:12 PM

Al Klein wrote:

On 16 Oct 2006 17:01:00 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:

usenet_trash@yahoo.de wrote:

Are you also comfortable with a child experiencing pain, trauma,
humiliation, fear, HIV, STD's, etc. from such an experience? Some
children, who are assaulted by pedofreaks grow up to help swell
their perverted ranks. That doesn't bother you though, does it?

Life can be difficult enough for children without some montrous
freak introducing him/her to the realm of adult sexual behavior.
A few children experience pleasure. Nevertheless, why
shouldn't innocence be retained until a person is of an age when
he/she is sexually and emotionally mature enough to engage in
sex with someone to whom that person chooses to lose his/her
innocence a/o virginity?

It seems to me that sex should be an adult activity, and
eighteen year olds are considered adults in this country.
No, that doesn't mean that all eighteen year olds are
emotionally or sexually mature, but most are physically mature.
Adults should be accorded adult privileges. Ideally these
people would be married to one another, but adults are
free to make those decisions for themselves.
My concern does not lie so much with even mid-teen to older
people, but with very small children, prepubescent children, and
children who are in the early stages of pubescence. Those
who are not physically, emotionally or sexually mature enough
to make an informed decision with regard to sexual activity.
Allow a person to complete the final stage of sexual and
reproductive maturity along with emotional growth for goodness
sake.

(I'm not defending pedophilia, I'm asking how we choose.)
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid
consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and
ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who
works on the basis of reward and punishment. "
- Letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein Archive 59-215
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)

This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse	18 Oct 2006 01:20:43 PM

On 17 Oct 2006 19:28:12 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

On 16 Oct 2006 17:01:00 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:
So the question remains - at what age do you think a person "is
sexually and emotionally mature enough to engage in sex with someone
to whom that person chooses to lose his/her innocence a/o virginity"?
Menstruation, for a woman, as our ancestors figured? Some arbitrary
year? 13 (as in some states)? 17? 21? Are all 21 year olds
emotionally mature enough? How do we choose?

And some 16 year olds are both emotionally and physically mature
enough for sex.

Ideally these people would be married to one another

Why?

My concern does not lie so much with even mid-teen to older
people, but with very small children, prepubescent children, and
children who are in the early stages of pubescence. Those
who are not physically, emotionally or sexually mature enough
to make an informed decision with regard to sexual activity.

So, again, how do we decide when any particular child is physically,
emotionally and sexually mature enough?

Allow a person to complete the final stage of sexual and
reproductive maturity along with emotional growth for goodness
sake.

And how do we decide when one has?

(I'm not defending pedophilia, I'm asking how we choose.)

And I'm still asking.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I've heard the call. I believe God wants me to run for president."
- George W. Bush, quoted in George Magazine, September, 2000
"God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith,
deep and unshakeable faith, that he was sent to us by
God to save Germany."
- Hermann Goering, speaking of Hitler
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
.

User: "willow"
Title: Re: Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse	19 Oct 2006 04:00:15 PM

Al Klein wrote:

On 17 Oct 2006 19:28:12 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

On 16 Oct 2006 17:01:00 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:

And some 16 year olds are both emotionally and physically mature
enough for sex.

I can agree with this.

Ideally these people would be married to one another

Why?

Because it's part of my belief system.

So, again, how do we decide when any particular child is physically,
emotionally and sexually mature enough?

Define who you consider a child. I'm not posting about
children being ready to engage in sex.

Allow a person to complete the final stage of sexual and
reproductive maturity along with emotional growth for goodness
sake.

And how do we decide when one has?

When one's sex organs have matured, when he/she understands
enough about sex to make an informed decision about entering
into sexual activity, as I wrote above, and he/she can handle it.
Getting to know the person well would be beneficial in making
that decision I should think.
Ideally, no coercion or deceit would be involved either. Ha! How
often does that happen?

(I'm not defending pedophilia, I'm asking how we choose.)

And I'm still asking.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I've heard the call. I believe God wants me to run for president."
- George W. Bush, quoted in George Magazine, September, 2000

"God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith,
deep and unshakeable faith, that he was sent to us by
God to save Germany."
- Hermann Goering, speaking of Hitler
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User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse	19 Oct 2006 06:56:21 PM

On 19 Oct 2006 14:00:15 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

On 17 Oct 2006 19:28:12 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:

Ideally these people would be married to one another

Why?

Because it's part of my belief system.

How would that make it ideal for them? Those for whom it's a part of
their belief system will get married. Those who don't evidently don't
include that in their belief system.

So, again, how do we decide when any particular child is physically,
emotionally and sexually mature enough?

Define who you consider a child.

You said "Those who are not physically, emotionally or sexually mature
enough" - how do we decide who is "physically, emotionally and
sexually mature enough"?
I'm not defining anything, I'm asking you to clarify your statement.

Allow a person to complete the final stage of sexual and
reproductive maturity along with emotional growth for goodness
sake.

And how do we decide when one has?

When one's sex organs have matured, when he/she understands
enough about sex to make an informed decision about entering
into sexual activity, as I wrote above, and he/she can handle it.

Which means anywhere from around 12 to never, depending on the
individual.

Ideally, no coercion or deceit would be involved either. Ha! How
often does that happen?

Coercion in that regard is a class A felony in most jurisdictions.
Where it isn't it should be.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"We should do unto others as we would want them to do unto us. If I were an unborn
fetus I would want others to use force to protect me, therefore using force against
abortionists is *justifiable homocide*."
- "Pro-Life" doctor killer and corpse Paul Hill
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
.

User: "willow"
Title: Re: Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse	19 Oct 2006 07:17:44 PM

Al Klein wrote:

On 19 Oct 2006 14:00:15 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

On 17 Oct 2006 19:28:12 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:

Ideally these people would be married to one another

Why?

Because it's part of my belief system.

How would that make it ideal for them? Those for whom it's a part of
their belief system will get married. Those who don't evidently don't
include that in their belief system.

Ideal from my point of view based on my beliefs. Where they
have the freedom, people generally do what they want to do .

So, again, how do we decide when any particular child is physically,
emotionally and sexually mature enough?

Define who you consider a child.

You said "Those who are not physically, emotionally or sexually mature
enough" - how do we decide who is "physically, emotionally and
sexually mature enough"?

I'm not defining anything, I'm asking you to clarify your statement.

Allow a person to complete the final stage of sexual and
reproductive maturity along with emotional growth for goodness
sake.

And how do we decide when one has?

When one's sex organs have matured, when he/she understands
enough about sex to make an informed decision about entering
into sexual activity, as I wrote above, and he/she can handle it.

Which means anywhere from around 12 to never, depending on the
individual.

How many twelve year old girls know most of the consequences
of sexual acitivity? How many understand the emotional stakes?
How many know when they are being deceived into engaging
in sex with someone who is telling them things they what to hear
in order to shag them? Many women are so deceived.

Ideally, no coercion or deceit would be involved either. Ha! How
often does that happen?

Coercion in that regard is a class A felony in most jurisdictions.
Where it isn't it should be.

Good boy.

--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"We should do unto others as we would want them to do unto us. If I were an unborn
fetus I would want others to use force to protect me, therefore using force against
abortionists is *justifiable homocide*."
- "Pro-Life" doctor killer and corpse Paul Hill
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse	19 Oct 2006 09:50:53 PM

On 19 Oct 2006 17:17:44 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

On 19 Oct 2006 14:00:15 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:
You said "Those who are not physically, emotionally or sexually mature
enough" - how do we decide who is "physically, emotionally and
sexually mature enough"?

I'm not defining anything, I'm asking you to clarify your statement.

Allow a person to complete the final stage of sexual and
reproductive maturity along with emotional growth for goodness
sake.

And how do we decide when one has?

When one's sex organs have matured, when he/she understands
enough about sex to make an informed decision about entering
into sexual activity, as I wrote above, and he/she can handle it.

Which means anywhere from around 12 to never, depending on the
individual.

So I ask you again - how do we decide which ones are and which ones
aren't?

Many women are so deceived.

Many 40 year old women are so deceived, so do we set the age of
consent to 50? 75?
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds
are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her
tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of
the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."
- Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826)
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This signature was made by SigChanger.
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User: "willow"
Title: Re: Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse	20 Oct 2006 06:12:35 AM

Al Klein wrote:

On 19 Oct 2006 17:17:44 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

On 19 Oct 2006 14:00:15 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:

You said "Those who are not physically, emotionally or sexually mature
enough" - how do we decide who is "physically, emotionally and
sexually mature enough"?

I'm not defining anything, I'm asking you to clarify your statement.

Allow a person to complete the final stage of sexual and
reproductive maturity along with emotional growth for goodness
sake.

And how do we decide when one has?

When one's sex organs have matured, when he/she understands
enough about sex to make an informed decision about entering
into sexual activity, as I wrote above, and he/she can handle it.

Which means anywhere from around 12 to never, depending on the
individual.

So I ask you again - how do we decide which ones are and which ones
aren't?

Why don't we just let kids be kids who concern themselves
with school work, learning to fit in with other kids, sports,
music, art, clothes, etc. Kids who are free from the possible
repercussions of sexual activity. There will be a lifetime to
deal with those things. What twelve year old girl needs to
experience being seduced and abandoned. Why should she
have to learn to deal with pregnancy, miscarriage or abortion?
Let her concentrate on school projects and other kid activities
I repeat.

Many women are so deceived.

Many 40 year old women are so deceived, so do we set the age of
consent to 50? 75?

Whatever you want me to say, I probably won't say.
The same thing can happen to a fifty or seventy-five year
old. As I said before, people are considered adults at
eighteen. Set the age of consent at eighteen and let the
chips fall where they may. At some point people have
a responsibilty to themselves to look out for themselves.

--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds
are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her
tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of
the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."
- Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826)
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This signature was made by SigChanger.
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User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse	20 Oct 2006 07:45:17 AM

On 20 Oct 2006 04:12:35 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

On 19 Oct 2006 17:17:44 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
So I ask you again - how do we decide which ones are and which ones
aren't?

So you're saying that, at whatever age a child decides to have sex,
it's up to them?
Or you're saying that you're going to sidestep the question?

Many women are so deceived.

Many 40 year old women are so deceived, so do we set the age of
consent to 50? 75?

Why not 17? Some states say 15. Some countries (same species) say
13.
Are you saying it's entirely subjective?

At some point people have
a responsibilty to themselves to look out for themselves.

That's the question - how do we determine where the point is. You're
insisting on there being a point, but you won't address how we
determine where it is.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of
themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell
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User: "willow"
Title: Re: Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse	20 Oct 2006 08:20:02 AM

Al Klein wrote:

On 20 Oct 2006 04:12:35 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

On 19 Oct 2006 17:17:44 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>

So I ask you again - how do we decide which ones are and which ones
aren't?

So you're saying that, at whatever age a child decides to have sex,
it's up to them?

No, that is not what I posted, and you know it. Where did I
list sex as an option for a child? Apparently I was under
the false impression that you don't consider sex as a child
activity.

Or you're saying that you're going to sidestep the question?

Many women are so deceived.

Many 40 year old women are so deceived, so do we set the age of
consent to 50? 75?

Why not 17? Some states say 15. Some countries (same species) say
13.

I posted eighteen, Al, and the operative word is adult.
Can't make it any plainer than that.

Are you saying it's entirely subjective?

Al Klein, I know you are far more intelligent than
your response to my post indicates.

At some point people have
a responsibilty to themselves to look out for themselves.

That's the question - how do we determine where the point is. You're
insisting on there being a point, but you won't address how we
determine where it is.

What part of eighteen year old adult are you unable to comprehend?

--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of
themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell
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User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse	20 Oct 2006 04:40:31 PM

On 20 Oct 2006 06:20:02 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

On 20 Oct 2006 04:12:35 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:

Why not 17? Some states say 15. Some countries (same species) say
13.

I posted eighteen, Al, and the operative word is adult.

Some states define 'adult' as 17, some as 15. Some countries define
'adult' as 13. It's a word that depends on local definition. If you
want to choose 18, fine, that's your choice. I don't think all
children are mature by the age of 18, and I don't think all children
under the age of 18 are not mature. IOW, I don't think an arbitrary
number is a measure of maturity.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Never in human history have such genocide and cruelty been
witnessed. Such a genocide was never seen in the time of the pharaohs nor
of Hitler nor of Mussolini."
- Mehmet Elkatmi, head of Turkish parliament's human rights commission
on Bush's genocide in the Iraq war. 11-28-2004
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User: "willow"
Title: Re: Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse	20 Oct 2006 05:47:07 PM

Al Klein wrote:

On 20 Oct 2006 06:20:02 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

On 20 Oct 2006 04:12:35 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:

Why not 17? Some states say 15. Some countries (same species) say
13.

I posted eighteen, Al, and the operative word is adult.

In the USA the age of majority in the states is no younger than
18. In a few the aom is 19, and in the rest it's 21.
It's true that each and every 18 yr. old is not mature, and some
people are mature before they reach the age of 18, but since
they are mostly regarded as adults across this country, they
should be allowed to make decisions about sex for themselves.
They are allowed to vote and they are allowed to join, or be
drafted into the armed services. That is, drafted when it is in
effect. These are two of the biggies on which they can decide.
Some people never mature, but what can one do about that?
True an arbitrary number is no measure of maturity, but when
a person reaches the age of majority they are free to engage
in legal adult conduct. What are we to do, have the maturity
police administer maturity tests? I think not.

--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Never in human history have such genocide and cruelty been
witnessed. Such a genocide was never seen in the time of the pharaohs nor
of Hitler nor of Mussolini."
- Mehmet Elkatmi, head of Turkish parliament's human rights commission
on Bush's genocide in the Iraq war. 11-28-2004
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User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse	20 Oct 2006 06:57:14 PM

On 20 Oct 2006 15:47:07 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:

In the USA the age of majority in the states is no younger than
18. In a few the aom is 19, and in the rest it's 21.

I can't find a single State in which it's 21, or even 19. In the
majority of states it seems to be 16.
<http://www.actwin.com/eatonohio/gay/consent.htm>
<http://www.coolnurse.com/consent.htm>
Now if we look at the rest of the world, we find that the youngest age
of consent is 12. In Japan, a modern industrialized nation, the age
of consent is 13. In fact the only countries in which the age of
consent for heterosexual sex is higher than 19 are Madagascar and
Tunisia. The majority of the world seems to think that 14-16 is old
enough.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my
contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him, the
spinal cord would fully suffice."
- Albert Einstein
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User: "willow"
Title: Re: Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse	20 Oct 2006 07:38:36 PM

Al Klein wrote:

On 20 Oct 2006 15:47:07 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:

In the USA the age of majority in the states is no younger than
18. In a few the aom is 19, and in the rest it's 21.

I was addressing the age of majority. You are correct, many
of our states have age of consent laws for people as young
as 16. I googled the topic, Age of Consent.
Personally, I think it's appalling for reasons I have stated in my
previous posts. A really young person can be exposed to all
the pitfalls that sex entails, but he/she can't drive, drink, vote,
etc.
and for good reasons. However, teens are allowed to be involved
in conduct that can result in HIV, AIDS, STDS, pregnancy, miscarriage,
abortion, exploitation, and whatever else. It sucks.

--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my
contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him, the
spinal cord would fully suffice."
- Albert Einstein
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User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse	20 Oct 2006 10:07:07 PM

On 20 Oct 2006 17:38:36 -0700, "willow" <willowrun06@comcast.net>
wrote:

Whether they're "allowed to" or not, they're going to. Abstinence is
the best form of birth control for species it works for - it doesn't
work for extant species.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"If we really know Truth, we do not fear hearing falsehoods or half-truths; if we are not sure of the truth - we shudder and try to shout down every utterance." - A. J. Mims
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