| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Shapescare" |
| Date: |
31 Jan 2008 07:25:18 AM |
| Object: |
How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
Is it possible to believe in a god if you are an agnostic?
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| User: "Lee" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
31 Jan 2008 08:15:14 AM |
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"Shapescare" <farentilmaren@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ac062a5-8863-4744-86cb-4feb1b0da1c4@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Is it possible to believe in a god if you are an agnostic?
It depends on your definition. The words get used in different ways by
different people.
Everyone seems to agree that "theists" believe in God, god or gods.
The good folks on alt.atheism adamantly insist that "atheists" *lack* belief
in God, god or gods. However, most people that I have met outside of
alt.atheism insist just as strongly that atheists believe that gods, god or
God do not exist. "Lack of belief in God" is considered "weak atheism".
"Belief that there is no God" is considered "strong atheism".
Agnostics "don't know". Some people interpret agnosticism as "do not hold
the belief that God, god or gods exist and do not hold the belief that God,
god or gods do NOT exist". Under this interpretation, if you believe in God
(even though your may not be fully certain) you are *not* agnostic.
Others interpret agnosticism as "uncertain". Under this interpretation, a
person might think "I believe in God but I'm not certain. Therefore I'm
agnostic theist." And (under this interpretation) another person might
think "I believe there are no gods, god or God but I'm not certain.
Therefore I'm agnostic atheist".
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| User: "Reality_Check©" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
31 Jan 2008 11:23:20 PM |
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"Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote in message news:SJkoj.5178$9g.3219@trndny07...
"Shapescare" <farentilmaren@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ac062a5-8863-4744-86cb-4feb1b0da1c4@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Is it possible to believe in a god if you are an agnostic?
It depends on your definition. The words get used in different ways by
different people.
Everyone seems to agree that "theists" believe in God, god or gods.
The good folks on alt.atheism adamantly insist that "atheists" *lack*
belief in God, god or gods. However, most people that I have met outside
of alt.atheism insist just as strongly that atheists believe that gods,
god or God do not exist.
You, and "most people" are IDIOTS !
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "Michael" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
01 Feb 2008 12:42:23 AM |
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On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 00:23:20 -0500, Reality_Check© wrote:
You, and "most people" are IDIOTS !
This is impossible. Most people are "average" -- by definition!
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
01 Feb 2008 05:08:43 AM |
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Michael <newsus...@orneveien.org> wrote:
This is impossible. =A0Most people are "average" -- by definition!
Buy a new dictionary.
The average of { 2, 3,10} if 5, though clearly '5' does not exist
within the set {2, 3, 10}.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
01 Feb 2008 01:47:12 AM |
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On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 23:42:23 -0700, Michael <newsuser3@orneveien.org>
wrote:
On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 00:23:20 -0500, Reality_Check© wrote:
You, and "most people" are IDIOTS !
This is impossible. Most people are "average" -- by definition!
It is not impossible:
The average is an idiot.
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| User: "Shapescare" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
31 Jan 2008 11:13:15 AM |
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On Jan 31, 3:15 pm, "Lee" <l...@not.me> wrote:
Under this interpretation, a
person might think "I believe in God but I'm not certain. Therefore I'm
agnostic theist."
But this "uncertain" person would have to make a definite choice which
god(s) to believe in, and say: "There are thousands of possible (and
impossible) gods out there, and I choose to believe in gods number
265, 1654 and perhaps number 2421 as well.
Or, he could say that there is a slight possibility that /all/ gods
exist.
And (under this interpretation) another person might
think "I believe there are no gods, god or God but I'm not certain.
Therefore I'm agnostic atheist".
Exactly!!
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
03 Feb 2008 08:31:39 AM |
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On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:15:14 GMT, "Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote:
"Shapescare" <farentilmaren@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ac062a5-8863-4744-86cb-4feb1b0da1c4@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Is it possible to believe in a god if you are an agnostic?
It depends on your definition. The words get used in different ways by
different people.
One way by atheists who understand perfectly what we are.
And the other way by theists who insist we're something else,
inventing positions we don't have.
Everyone seems to agree that "theists" believe in God, god or gods.
The good folks on alt.atheism adamantly insist that "atheists" *lack* belief
in God, god or gods. However, most people that I have met outside of
alt.atheism insist just as strongly that atheists believe that gods, god or
God do not exist.
And they're all theists who are incapable of grasping the world
outside their religion, and who think they get to tell us what our POV
"really" is based on presumptions only theists have.
"Lack of belief in God" is considered "weak atheism".
"Belief that there is no God" is considered "strong atheism".
Neither are accurate, because they are fabrications by theists who
can't grasp that the word "God" means something else outside their
religion.
Agnostics "don't know".
What is there to "not know" in the real world outside the theist's
religion?
Some people interpret agnosticism as "do not hold
the belief that God, god or gods exist and do not hold the belief that God,
god or gods do NOT exist". Under this interpretation, if you believe in God
(even though your may not be fully certain) you are *not* agnostic.
Others interpret agnosticism as "uncertain". Under this interpretation, a
person might think "I believe in God but I'm not certain. Therefore I'm
agnostic theist." And (under this interpretation) another person might
think "I believe there are no gods, god or God but I'm not certain.
Therefore I'm agnostic atheist".
Why can't people accept that we are simply absent the property of
being theist?
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| User: "Lee" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
04 Feb 2008 03:43:27 PM |
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"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:aqjbq3p07qa31vo850gr1ltvsqel8k5rt7@4ax.com...
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:15:14 GMT, "Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote:
most people that I have met outside of
alt.atheism insist just as strongly that atheists believe that gods, god
or
God do not exist.
And they're all theists who are incapable of grasping the world
outside their religion, and who think they get to tell us what our POV
"really" is based on presumptions only theists have.
No. They are atheists who have considered what God, god, gods would be (if
such things did exist) and came to the conclusion that God, god, gods do not
exist.
Your brand of atheism holds ignorance at it's core.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
04 Feb 2008 04:11:16 PM |
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On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 21:43:27 GMT, "Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:aqjbq3p07qa31vo850gr1ltvsqel8k5rt7@4ax.com...
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:15:14 GMT, "Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote:
most people that I have met outside of
alt.atheism insist just as strongly that atheists believe that gods, god
or
God do not exist.
And they're all theists who are incapable of grasping the world
outside their religion, and who think they get to tell us what our POV
"really" is based on presumptions only theists have.
No. They are atheists who have considered what God, god, gods would be (if
such things did exist) and came to the conclusion that God, god, gods do not
exist.
Your brand of atheism holds ignorance at it's core.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
04 Feb 2008 04:14:19 PM |
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On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 21:43:27 GMT, "Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:aqjbq3p07qa31vo850gr1ltvsqel8k5rt7@4ax.com...
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:15:14 GMT, "Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote:
most people that I have met outside of
alt.atheism insist just as strongly that atheists believe that gods, god
or
God do not exist.
And they're all theists who are incapable of grasping the world
outside their religion, and who think they get to tell us what our POV
"really" is based on presumptions only theists have.
No. They are atheists who have considered what God, god, gods would be (if
such things did exist) and came to the conclusion that God, god, gods do not
exist.
Your brand of atheism holds ignorance at it's core.
What do you imagine you achieve by this kind of personal lie?
Why do you imagine atheists should start from the implicit presumption
of the theists' god?
If you don't start from there about Zeus, Odin and all the others why
imagine anybody should start from the implicit presumption of one
called "God"?
Think about it. "God" only has any significance and relevance inside
somebody else's religion.
It's their presumption, not ours. Part of their paradigm not ours.
Most atheists don't have anything to believe doesn't exist. Or to be
agnostic about. Or to not believe.
Because it's merely part of the alternate virtual reality of somebody
else's religion.
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| User: "Lee" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
04 Feb 2008 06:15:30 PM |
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"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:fc3fq35j2i5qi9i53fqg19jdvnt38a5lak@4ax.com...
On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 21:43:27 GMT, "Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:aqjbq3p07qa31vo850gr1ltvsqel8k5rt7@4ax.com...
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:15:14 GMT, "Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote:
most people that I have met outside of
alt.atheism insist just as strongly that atheists believe that gods, god
or
God do not exist.
And they're all theists who are incapable of grasping the world
outside their religion, and who think they get to tell us what our POV
"really" is based on presumptions only theists have.
No. They are atheists who have considered what God, god, gods would be
(if
such things did exist) and came to the conclusion that God, god, gods do
not
exist.
Your brand of atheism holds ignorance at it's core.
Why do you imagine atheists should start from the implicit presumption
of the theists' god?
If you don't start from there about Zeus, Odin and all the others why
imagine anybody should start from the implicit presumption of one
called "God"?
Personally, I do "start from there" about Zeus, Odin and all the others, and
I conclude that they all don't exist.
Think about it. "God" only has any significance and relevance inside
somebody else's religion.
You think about it: IF "God" were to actually exist THEN "God" would be
extremely significant and relevant to the universe and to us who live it in.
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| User: "Shapescare" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
05 Feb 2008 02:41:53 AM |
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On Feb 5, 1:15=A0am, "Lee" <l...@not.me> wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <ca...@optonline.net> wrote in messagenews:fc3fq35j2i=
5qi9i53fqg19jdvnt38a5lak@4ax.com...
Think about it. "God" only has any significance and relevance inside
somebody else's religion.
You think about it: =A0IF "God" were to actually exist THEN "God" would be=
extremely significant and relevant to the universe and to us who live it i=
n.-
What is this "god"-creature that you are referring to?
Does a "god" have to have human-like features in order to be
considered a god?
Does a "god" have to be the "creator" in order to be considered a god?
Does a "god" have to be the father of Jesus in order to be considered
a god?
Does a "god" have to be "good" in order to be considered a god?
Does a "god" have to have Mohammad as his prophet in order to be
considered a god?
Does a "god" have to be the "creator" in order to be considered a god?
Does a "god" have to favour the Jews in order to be considered a god?
If we see something/someone we believe to be "god", how do we know
that it actually /is/ God?
In short, what constitutes a god?
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
04 Feb 2008 07:08:09 PM |
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On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:15:30 GMT, "Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:fc3fq35j2i5qi9i53fqg19jdvnt38a5lak@4ax.com...
On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 21:43:27 GMT, "Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:aqjbq3p07qa31vo850gr1ltvsqel8k5rt7@4ax.com...
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:15:14 GMT, "Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote:
most people that I have met outside of
alt.atheism insist just as strongly that atheists believe that gods, god
or
God do not exist.
And they're all theists who are incapable of grasping the world
outside their religion, and who think they get to tell us what our POV
"really" is based on presumptions only theists have.
No. They are atheists who have considered what God, god, gods would be
(if
such things did exist) and came to the conclusion that God, god, gods do
not
exist.
Your brand of atheism holds ignorance at it's core.
Why do you imagine atheists should start from the implicit presumption
of the theists' god?
If you don't start from there about Zeus, Odin and all the others why
imagine anybody should start from the implicit presumption of one
called "God"?
Personally, I do "start from there" about Zeus, Odin and all the others, and
I conclude that they all don't exist.
No, you don't. You treat them as figures people used to believe in,
wove legends around etc.
Think about it. "God" only has any significance and relevance inside
somebody else's religion.
You think about it: IF "God" were to actually exist THEN "God" would be
extremely significant and relevant to the universe and to us who live it in.
You think about it. Demonstrate that it has any relevance then you
might have a point.
Why do you treat it differently than all the other unjustified "if"
objects?
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| User: "Lee" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
04 Feb 2008 07:34:23 PM |
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"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:6ldfq3l9uue4723orochgfdhrbthepummu@4ax.com...
On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:15:30 GMT, "Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:fc3fq35j2i5qi9i53fqg19jdvnt38a5lak@4ax.com...
On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 21:43:27 GMT, "Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:aqjbq3p07qa31vo850gr1ltvsqel8k5rt7@4ax.com...
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:15:14 GMT, "Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote:
most people that I have met outside of
alt.atheism insist just as strongly that atheists believe that gods,
god
or
God do not exist.
And they're all theists who are incapable of grasping the world
outside their religion, and who think they get to tell us what our POV
"really" is based on presumptions only theists have.
No. They are atheists who have considered what God, god, gods would be
(if
such things did exist) and came to the conclusion that God, god, gods do
not
exist.
Your brand of atheism holds ignorance at it's core.
Why do you imagine atheists should start from the implicit presumption
of the theists' god?
If you don't start from there about Zeus, Odin and all the others why
imagine anybody should start from the implicit presumption of one
called "God"?
Personally, I do "start from there" about Zeus, Odin and all the others,
and
I conclude that they all don't exist.
No, you don't. You treat them as figures people used to believe in,
wove legends around etc.
I treat Zeus, Odin, all the others, "God", sasquatch and the Loch Ness
Monster the same way. I examine the evidence and determine a conclusion.
If someone were to ask me whether I think they exist, I would answer that I
think they don't.
Think about it. "God" only has any significance and relevance inside
somebody else's religion.
You think about it: IF "God" were to actually exist THEN "God" would be
extremely significant and relevant to the universe and to us who live it
in.
You think about it. Demonstrate that it has any relevance then you
might have a point.
Relevance is a red herring. "God" would be relevant if it were to exist. So
what is actually important is to demonstrate existence. And since its
existence cannot be demonstrated then the reasonable conclusion is its
non-existence.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
04 Feb 2008 04:56:53 PM |
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On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 21:43:27 GMT, "Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:aqjbq3p07qa31vo850gr1ltvsqel8k5rt7@4ax.com...
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:15:14 GMT, "Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote:
most people that I have met outside of
alt.atheism insist just as strongly that atheists believe that gods, god
or
God do not exist.
And they're all theists who are incapable of grasping the world
outside their religion, and who think they get to tell us what our POV
"really" is based on presumptions only theists have.
No. They are atheists who have considered what God, god, gods would be (if
such things did exist) and came to the conclusion that God, god, gods do not
exist.
Your brand of atheism holds ignorance at it's core.
Your lack of knowledge about Hfiouhergozzerguh holds ignorance at it's
core.
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| User: "Lee" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
04 Feb 2008 06:03:05 PM |
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"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:e06fq3dnb1jjhmi030t52ae93md4o670t2@4ax.com...
On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 21:43:27 GMT, "Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:aqjbq3p07qa31vo850gr1ltvsqel8k5rt7@4ax.com...
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:15:14 GMT, "Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote:
most people that I have met outside of
alt.atheism insist just as strongly that atheists believe that gods, god
or
God do not exist.
And they're all theists who are incapable of grasping the world
outside their religion, and who think they get to tell us what our POV
"really" is based on presumptions only theists have.
No. They are atheists who have considered what God, god, gods would be
(if
such things did exist) and came to the conclusion that God, god, gods do
not
exist.
Your brand of atheism holds ignorance at it's core.
Your lack of knowledge about Hfiouhergozzerguh holds ignorance at it's
core.
A google search for Hfiouhergozzerguh found nothing. If you tell me what
Hfiouhergozzerguh is then maybe I'll want to discuss it with you.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
05 Feb 2008 01:01:08 AM |
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On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:03:05 GMT, "Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote:
"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:e06fq3dnb1jjhmi030t52ae93md4o670t2@4ax.com...
On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 21:43:27 GMT, "Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:aqjbq3p07qa31vo850gr1ltvsqel8k5rt7@4ax.com...
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:15:14 GMT, "Lee" <lee@not.me> wrote:
most people that I have met outside of
alt.atheism insist just as strongly that atheists believe that gods, god
or
God do not exist.
And they're all theists who are incapable of grasping the world
outside their religion, and who think they get to tell us what our POV
"really" is based on presumptions only theists have.
No. They are atheists who have considered what God, god, gods would be
(if
such things did exist) and came to the conclusion that God, god, gods do
not
exist.
Your brand of atheism holds ignorance at it's core.
Your lack of knowledge about Hfiouhergozzerguh holds ignorance at it's
core.
A google search for Hfiouhergozzerguh found nothing. If you tell me what
Hfiouhergozzerguh is then maybe I'll want to discuss it with you.
You have proven my EXACT point to a remarkable degree!
Oh, the delicious irony.
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| User: "Shapescare" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
03 Feb 2008 10:39:28 AM |
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On Feb 3, 3:31 pm, Christopher A. Lee <ca...@optonline.net> wrote:
Neither are accurate, because they are fabrications by theists who
can't grasp that the word "God" means something else outside their
religion.
I agree.
And this is why I can't see any real difference between the terms /
agnostic/ and /atheist/.
Theists have a clear conception of "God" whereas agnostics/atheists
consider "god" a mere concept.
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| User: "Dag Yo" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
31 Jan 2008 12:06:36 PM |
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On Jan 31, 5:25 am, Shapescare <farentilma...@gmail.com> wrote:
Is it possible to believe in a god if you are an agnostic?
Why not. I don't know that life on other planets exists but I believe
that it does.
Likewise it should be reasonable that some theists don't know if god
exist but believe that a god does.
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| User: "Shapescare" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
31 Jan 2008 01:27:44 PM |
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On Jan 31, 7:06 pm, Dag Yo <sir_ro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jan 31, 5:25 am, Shapescare <farentilma...@gmail.com> wrote:
Is it possible to believe in a god if you are an agnostic?
Why not. I don't know that life on other planets exists but I believe
that it does.
I don't buy your allegory.
I don't know the metaphysics behind our world, but I still believe
that there is something that we don't know and don't understand. But
because I do not know or understand the "metaphysic" reality, I DO NOT
CONSTRUCT any human-like entity that is supposed to explain ontology
and ethics.
Likewise, I do not know that life on other planets exist, but I /know/
that it may well do. But because I do not know about any alien forms
of life, I do not construct any alien life form, and I do not place
these "creatures" om certain planets in certain solar systems in
certain galaxies.
In my opinion, if you identify the god of your belief, you're saying
that he (or she) exists.
Likewise it should be reasonable that some theists don't know if god
exist but believe that a god does.
"A god", perhaps, but not "one certain god".
Consequently, if you're only saying that "a god" may exist, you
haven't established an entity that is even possible to believe in,
because "a god" could be anything.
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| User: "Dag Yo" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
31 Jan 2008 02:24:04 PM |
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I've got two points to make then.
The first of which is that I made a mistake. Technically I do not
believe that life exists on other planets as I said that I did.
Rather, I believe that life very *probably* exists on other planets --
as in I'm stopping just short of certainty/justified-true-belief. And
that is a necessary distinction to make. So at least in that respect,
my analogy is ***** after all.
Likewise it should be reasonable that some theists don't know if god
exist but believe that a god does.
"A god", perhaps, but not "one certain god".
Consequently, if you're only saying that "a god" may exist, you
haven't established an entity that is even possible to believe in,
because "a god" could be anything.
Keeping what you're saying here in mind, I don't think that theist are
actually all that careful with their use of language and (if I can
just make a sweeping statement) they are not very careful with their
beliefs either. I think that you are correct if you look closely at
the matter, but I don't think that theists do look so closely at such
matters; and because of their penchant for sloppy thinking, it seems
that even though they might not be able to (in actuality) be both
theists and agnostics; theists can probably hold those two exclusive
positions at the same time (and believe them both to be the case) even
though it isn't correct.
---------
On Jan 31, 11:27 am, Shapescare <farentilma...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 31, 7:06 pm, Dag Yo <sir_ro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jan 31, 5:25 am, Shapescare <farentilma...@gmail.com> wrote:
Is it possible to believe in a god if you are an agnostic?
Why not. I don't know that life on other planets exists but I believe
that it does.
I don't buy your allegory.
I don't know the metaphysics behind our world, but I still believe
that there is something that we don't know and don't understand. But
because I do not know or understand the "metaphysic" reality, I DO NOT
CONSTRUCT any human-like entity that is supposed to explain ontology
and ethics.
Likewise, I do not know that life on other planets exist, but I /know/
that it may well do. But because I do not know about any alien forms
of life, I do not construct any alien life form, and I do not place
these "creatures" om certain planets in certain solar systems in
certain galaxies.
In my opinion, if you identify the god of your belief, you're saying
that he (or she) exists.
Likewise it should be reasonable that some theists don't know if god
exist but believe that a god does.
"A god", perhaps, but not "one certain god".
Consequently, if you're only saying that "a god" may exist, you
haven't established an entity that is even possible to believe in,
because "a god" could be anything.
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| User: "Shapescare" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
02 Feb 2008 02:37:22 PM |
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On Jan 31, 9:24 pm, Dag Yo <sir_ro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I've got two points to make then.
The first of which is that I made a mistake. Technically I do not
believe that life exists on other planets as I said that I did.
Rather, I believe that life very *probably* exists on other planets --
as in I'm stopping just short of certainty/justified-true-belief. And
that is a necessary distinction to make. So at least in that respect,
my analogy is ***** after all.
Likewise it should be reasonable that some theists don't know if god
exist but believe that a god does.
"A god", perhaps, but not "one certain god".
Consequently, if you're only saying that "a god" may exist, you
haven't established an entity that is even possible to believe in,
because "a god" could be anything.
Keeping what you're saying here in mind, I don't think that theist are
actually all that careful with their use of language and (if I can
just make a sweeping statement) they are not very careful with their
beliefs either. I think that you are correct if you look closely at
the matter, but I don't think that theists do look so closely at such
matters; and because of their penchant for sloppy thinking, it seems
that even though they might not be able to (in actuality) be both
theists and agnostics; theists can probably hold those two exclusive
positions at the same time (and believe them both to be the case) even
though it isn't correct.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
I was concerned with definitions, but I understand that I need to
consider more how the brains of theists work.
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| User: "Conspiracy of Doves" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
31 Jan 2008 10:19:08 AM |
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On Jan 31, 8:25 am, Shapescare <farentilma...@gmail.com> wrote:
Is it possible to believe in a god if you are an agnostic?
Everyone in the world is either an atheist or a theist. Either you
have a belief in a god or you don't.
Agnostics are people who say that it is not possible to know whether
or not there is a god.
Now, belief and knowledge are two different things. So regardless as
to whether it is possible to know if there is a god or not, you still
either have a belief or you don't. It is perfectly possible to admit
that you don't (or can't) know that there is a god, yet still believe
that there is one.
That is a difficult concept for atheists, since for us belief almost
always follows knowledge. We generally don't accept anything as true
unless we have a solid reason to. But then, that's what makes us
atheists.
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| User: "Shapescare" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
02 Feb 2008 02:33:01 PM |
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On Jan 31, 5:19 pm, Conspiracy of Doves <mark_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jan 31, 8:25 am, Shapescare <farentilma...@gmail.com> wrote:
Is it possible to believe in a god if you are an agnostic?
Everyone in the world is either an atheist or a theist. Either you
have a belief in a god or you don't.
Agnostics are people who say that it is not possible to know whether
or not there is a god.
Now, belief and knowledge are two different things. So regardless as
to whether it is possible to know if there is a god or not, you still
either have a belief or you don't. It is perfectly possible to admit
that you don't (or can't) know that there is a god, yet still believe
that there is one.
But who believes in /a/ god?
Believers believe in one specific god.
That is a difficult concept for atheists, since for us belief almost
always follows knowledge. We generally don't accept anything as true
unless we have a solid reason to. But then, that's what makes us
atheists.
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| User: "Hatter" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
31 Jan 2008 09:40:40 AM |
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On Jan 31, 8:25=A0am, Shapescare <farentilma...@gmail.com> wrote:
Is it possible to believe in a god if you are an agnostic?
Read items from Deists during the enlightenment. The only thing they
attribut to God is creation...they say "don't know" to everything else
Hatter
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| User: "V" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
02 Feb 2008 05:40:43 PM |
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On Jan 31, 8:25=EF=BF=BDam, Shapescare <farentilma...@gmail.com> wrote:
Is it possible to believe in a god if you are an agnostic?
Sure an agnostic can be a theist.
It is no different from an agnostic atheist like myself than it is for
an agnostic theist.
I lean towards atheism, but I may be wrong.
Some agnostics lean towards theism, but they may be wrong.
Very simple my friend .. don't get so stuck on the minutia.
BuddyThunder wrote:
"I've recently read a bunch of posts from the local theists of various
unsupportable beliefs calling atheists worshippers of this and
that.Darwin, science, money, rationalism, ourselves, and the senses
have all got the treatment, but non sequiturs like this simply make
the poster look hysterical and silly. For the theists among us: I am
an atheist. I worship nothing.... Incidentally, so do you!"
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
V:
Thanks for your post BuddyThunder
I've noticed this phenomena many times at alt.atheism.
Atheists seem to think if they 'justify' something in their mind, then
the 'god of logic' will make it true in the real world.
Unfortunately they forget they are humans and not machines.
The nature of humans is that of imperfection - it is only the nature
of gods to be perfect.
As such, what is logical is not always practical when it comes to
humans.
And this fact is only magnified a hundred fold when the logic emanates
from the sick atheist's mind.
Whenever we take it upon ourselves to beat down others, we are headed
in a direction of destroying peace. We destroy our own peace as well
as others peace. It takes no energy from me to pass something by and
leave it alone in peace. But it takes my energy as well as my peace to
pick something up to destroy it.
When I posted this paragraph earlier, an atheist piped to call me a
liar and accuse me of hypocrisy, telling me that I destroy a potato
when I pick it up to eat it.
Natural law dictates I must eat, but there is no law that says I must
spew venom from my mouth to destroy others.
If atheists can get over fishing for red herrings and get onto bigger
fish to fry they will see a world of difference in their peace
practice.
The destruction of inner peace by destroying potatoes comes about when
I destroy my neighbors crop field of potatoes by poisoning them to
bankrupt him in order to take over his farmland...it does not come
about by eating a potato.
The God of Nature gives me potatoes to eat, the God of inner Peace
tells me to not eat potatoes in excess or to destroy others if I wish
to be at peace. I cannot see either God, I know not how they work, I
just know they are.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=3D342.0
Being truth based instead of ego based, I have no need for
justification, I just seek the truth BuddyThunder.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=3D532.0
I look impartially at theists as well as atheists. If I did otherwise,
I could not be truth based, but would be ego based.
Do I seek to destroy atheists?
No, to do so would destroy me as well.
But, I do seek to have an opinion and comment on their actions.
And if what I say is false, then refute me, so I may adopt the truth
BuddyThunder.
But, the facts show the more I write, the less the atheists refute
BuddyThunder.
Atheists are a sad lot. They have no answers for me. You would think
if they cannot answer a proposition, they would look into it for
aspects of truth.
But honor dies where the interest lies BuddyThunder.
And with atheists their interest is in 'claiming they do not worship
anything under the sun'...well except worshiping themselves it seems.
But as atheists are ego based and not truth based BuddyThunder, they
are run by confused passions and deceit, as their ego's spin webs to
make their delusional and toxic thoughts appear as truth to them.
How could they live otherwise? The toxicity would kill them!
So, I am afraid I must disagree and rest on 'what is' true and not
what 'you wish' to be true BuddyThunder.
Now, you don't have to rationalize and justify yourself to me my
friend, you are free to do and think as you like BuddyThunder.
Thoreau once said when people invited him to dinner they put their
pride in how fancy and expensive a meal they could make. Whereas he
put his pride in how simple and inexpensive a meal he could make.
Where do you put your pride BuddyThunder?
Don't put your pride in saying 'I am an atheist and worship nothing'.
May I be so bold as to suggest you put your pride in being at peace
BuddyThunder.
Thoreau also said a thousand will strike at the branches of evil, but
only one will strike at the roots...be that one atheist that strikes
with truth BuddyThunder
But, no matter how you slice it, the fact remains, the confused, mind
manacled, spiritually sick atheist do worship many false gods
BuddyThunder.
Atheists worship their intellect, atheists make the test tube their
god, atheists worship hatred, atheists worship ignorance and
deceit...and atheists deify themselves BuddyThunder.
But humans do not make good gods BuddyThunder.
For once they become a god in their mind, they think they are perfect
and lose that part of being human that distinguishes them from all
else...they lose their conscience BuddyThunder.
And in the process, these self defied atheist gods loose all touch
with humanity BuddyThunder.
We can see this come to life with the quote below from Enkidu. This
same thinking that Enkidu uses to convince itself that it knows
everything about everything is what fuels the delusional atheists
mind.
This ego based foundation of godlike knowledge tells the atheist that
they know the unknowable.
Such atheists are only haggard shells of a human, withering away in
their hate based, delusional stew they call a life.
And as they live on a diet of hate and self righteous deceit - over
time, this poison festers and yields them a putrid, cesspool of a life
that manifests itself as the tragedy upon humanity known as the
dogmatic, mind manacled, spiritually sick atheist.
The atheist that only has a foundation of ego and hate will never find
peace BuddyThunder.
Despite Neil's claims to the contrary..this is 'universal law'
BuddyThunder.
We can see what happened recently at alt.athesim when we had a
'potential atheist convert' questioning their faith wondered onto our
board.
They could see 'atheism in action' for themselves with many
spiritually sick example members and their projection of this
spiritual sickness and self hate onto others.
They left in a few days offering...thanks...but no thanks.
These potential 'atheist converts' soon go back to their priest or
minister begging them to be admitted back into the flock...and who
could blame them!
For the 'God delusion' at least delivers a modicum of peace
Whereas the hate fueled, toxic, cesspool of a mind that atheists rely
on yields zero peace.
But such a mind is good for one thing BuddyThunder...it is good for
poisoning the individual and everyone around them.
Be honest with yourself BuddyThunder. Can poison, hatred and
destruction that the atheist offer ever yield you inner peace?
See:
http://www.churcharson.com/act_now/
I submit that you all drop the pretense and lies that you have been
grasping onto for entire life BuddyThunder and rebuild your life
through a foundation of truth and testing and regenerate yourself into
a truth based agnostic freethinker.
I've run into many of toxic atheists over the last 10 years
BuddyThunder. And can tell you without any doubt, that the atheist
that only has a foundation of ego, delusion and hate can and will
never find peace.
When this self deification occurs, the result is always the
same...they all self-destruct...the poison gets to them sooner or
later.
Lets look at one such self deified atheist Enkidu.
Now Enkidu knows everything about everything and no one can tell 'it'
a thing.
(BTW Enkidu, what is your gender so I may address you properly. I know
you are a shame based individual and are predisposed to hiding. But
offering your gender should be not be that big of a deal?)
Enkidu writes: "You (V) have nothing to say that we haven't heard
before, nothing to say that hasn't been say better by others, and
nothing to say that was worth hearing when said better by others. Your
pathetic little turds of truth are unoriginal*, irrational, ill-
conceived, ill-received, and devoid of value. But no, with all the
understanding of diarrhoeic bull's *****, you continue to spray *****
with abandon. " (condensed)
When you become this mind manacled as Enkidu, you make yourself the
god, you know all there is to know about everything under the sun and
forget you are interdependent with others as well as the spirit.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=3D613.0
Enkidu is free to have an opinion and speak for itself, but Enkidu
also speaks for 'all' of alt.atheism as well!
Who do I tell you I speak for?
For myself, my sig line I have used in the past state..."any opinion
expressed here is that of my own and is not the opinion,
recommendation or belief of any group or organization."
This is the clue of self deification BuddyThunder.
When we think we 'control all' and 'can speak for' and 'know all'...we
think we are god.
Now, Enkidu is not alone.
There are a few more mind manacled atheist gods here... Raven,
Robibnikoff, Bilbo, Michael Gray, Kate, Floyd, Neil, Michelle,
Parsifa, Martin, Lucifer, Syd M, John #1782, Kate, Hollis,
Gail,...they are all good examples of this sickness of self
deification.
They pass their time by as perennial fiends of shame and hostility,
just more cowards behind their keyboards, provoking others through
their frantic efforts to bloat their ego by degrading people in their
misguided hopes of finding inner peace.
But peace eludes them at every step. The more they write, the sicker
they become.
Can it be any other way when we administer poison BuddyThunder?
It is just like drinking salt water to quench thirst - futile.
So are the efforts of these sad and hopeless individuals that think
maybe they can find inner peace by hurting and destroying others.
As James Allen tell us...
"Good thoughts and actions can never produce bad results. Bad thoughts
and actions can never produce good results. This is but saying that
nothing can come from corn but corn, nothing from nettles but nettles.
Men understand this law in the natural world, and work with it. But
few understand it in the mental and moral world...
and
"To think well of all, to be cheerful with all, to patiently learn to
find the good in all - such unselfish thoughts are the very portals of
heaven; and to dwell day by day in thoughts of peace toward every
creature will bring abounding peace to their possessor."
This doesn't mean we have to not be concerned with danger to our well
being by any particular group. but, it also reminds us we will never
be at peace by fostering hatred for another.
As Enkidu tells us above..all this is nothing original*....what I've
said nothing new - as Raven, Robibnikoff, Bilbo, Michael Gray, Kate,
Floyd, Neil, Michelle, Parsifa, Martin, Lucifer, Syd M, John #1782,
Enkidu, Kate, Hollis, Gail already knows everything about
everything.....
As I have told Raven and will tell the rest of you - we can change our
current life, a life that yields us nothing but pain and suffering,
into a new life of joy and inner peace. We transform ourselves by the
simple action of taking that first step in the opposite direction that
we have been headed in for so long...but I can't take that first step
for you my friend.
Also see:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=3D509.0
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/125b41aa8fd2b87=
b/cf400bdf88ba1701?lnk=3Dgst&q=3Dconundrum&rnum=3D7&hl=3Den#cf400bdf88ba1701=
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=3D614.0
*For your information Enkidu, a portion of what I write is original,
so you may wish to amend your words somewhat. But do not get stuck
with 'a thing being original or not original,' just look at it for
practical application for its truth with yielding peace Enkidu.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=3D4.0
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
31 Jan 2008 09:35:24 PM |
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On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 05:25:18 -0800 (PST), Shapescare
<farentilmaren@gmail.com> wrote:
Is it possible to believe in a god if you are an agnostic?
Agnosticism is about knowledge, not belief.
So: YES, it is possible to be a theist and agnostic.
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| User: "Jenny6833A" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
01 Feb 2008 01:57:33 AM |
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On Jan 31, 8:35=A0pm, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 05:25:18 -0800 (PST), Shapescare
<farentilma...@gmail.com> wrote:
Is it possible to believe in a god if you are an agnostic?
Agnosticism is about knowledge, not belief.
Well, actually, agnosticsm is a belief about knowledge.
Agnosticism is the _belief_ that knowledge of gods is forever
unachievable.
So: YES, it is possible to be a theist and agnostic.
The agnostic says,"I believe that knowledge of gods is forever
unachievable." The theist says, "I believe XYZ god exists."
So, yes, it's possible and quite common to be both.
:-)
Jenny
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
01 Feb 2008 05:40:05 PM |
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On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 23:57:33 -0800 (PST), Jenny6833A
<Jenny6833A@aol.com> wrote:
On Jan 31, 8:35Â pm, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 05:25:18 -0800 (PST), Shapescare
<farentilma...@gmail.com> wrote:
Is it possible to believe in a god if you are an agnostic?
Agnosticism is about knowledge, not belief.
Well, actually, agnosticsm is a belief about knowledge.
In fact, agnosticism is a belief about someone else's claim to a
belief about knowledge.
This leads to an infinite regress, which is not at all helpful.
I prefer my proximal description, than your distal one.
Agnosticism is the _belief_ that knowledge of gods is forever
unachievable.
So: YES, it is possible to be a theist and agnostic.
The agnostic says,"I believe that knowledge of gods is forever
unachievable." The theist says, "I believe XYZ god exists."
So, yes, it's possible and quite common to be both.
:-)
Jenny
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| User: "Reality_Check©" |
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| Title: Re: How can an agnostic /not/ be an atheist? |
01 Feb 2008 11:33:00 PM |
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"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:nbb7q31af7nbj8m8ufknuda5udbju82j4r@4ax.com...
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 23:57:33 -0800 (PST), Jenny6833A
<Jenny6833A@aol.com> wrote:
On Jan 31, 8:35 pm, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 05:25:18 -0800 (PST), Shapescare
<farentilma...@gmail.com> wrote:
Is it possible to believe in a god if you are an agnostic?
Agnosticism is about knowledge, not belief.
Well, actually, agnosticsm is a belief about knowledge.
In fact, agnosticism is a belief about someone else's claim to a
belief about knowledge.
This leads to an infinite regress, which is not at all helpful.
I prefer my proximal description, than your distal one.
Agnostics are intellectual cowards.
Agnosticism is the _belief_ that knowledge of gods is forever
unachievable.
So: YES, it is possible to be a theist and agnostic.
The agnostic says,"I believe that knowledge of gods is forever
unachievable." The theist says, "I believe XYZ god exists."
So, yes, it's possible and quite common to be both.
:-)
Jenny
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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