How Could Evolution NOT Happen?

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Dave F"
Date:	26 Jun 2004 09:21:59 AM
Object:	How Could Evolution NOT Happen?

A question I like to sometimes pose to creationists is: Given what we know
about genetics and nature, how could evolution not occur? What would
prevent it?
The process that leads to evolution consists of the following elements:
1. The makeup of living creatures is dictated mostly by the sequence of
base pairs in DNA (there are other factors as well, but the base pair
sequence is particularly important)
Do any of you disagree with that? There is a massive amount of direct
evidence that ties specific traits to identifiable base pair sequences.
2. The sequence of base pairs is passed through generations from parent to
child
Again - this is directly observable, and the basis of paternity tests, among
other things.
3. The process for replicating DNA base pairs from parent to child, while
usually very accurate, is not perfect. Sometimes changes (mutations) to
these base pairs occurs due to cosmic radiation, the action of chemical
contaminants, or other factors.
Once more - this has been directly observed, with specific mutations being
tied to certain forms of cancer, for example.
4. Most mutations, by far, are harmful. But, in a large population, a few
changes would occur which would help a species move into another habitat or
gain an advantage over its peers in the habitat it is in. Also, some
mutations would occur which would make the mutated one more attractive to
members of the opposite sex. For example, in a species of bird where the
female is attracted to a blue color, a mutation that turns the offspring
from a pale blue to a deep, metallic blue, might give the male offspring an
advantage over his pale blue brothers.
Is there something here to disagree with?
5. DNA sequences that include mutations that provide a survival or
reproductive benefit will be retained and expand throughout the population.
Those that don't will generally not expand throughout populations.
How could this not happen?
6. The matter of which mutations are "beneficial" is related to habitats.
A long neck is beneficial if you are in a habitat with a lot of tall trees
with edible leaves, but a waste of energy if you live in a desert or in the
mountains. A mutation that allows for a fish to obtain oxygen from gulping
air is an advantage if it lives in swamps where the dissolved oxygen
sometimes becomes scarce, but is of no value to a fish in the open ocean.
As a result, the genetic mutations that would be beneficial for a species in
a new habitat will add up over time to create a species that is optimized
for that habitat, and will be significantly different from creatures that
inhabit a different habitat.
So Creationists - which of the above six steps do you believe to be false?
If you agree with all of them, please explain what would prevent the
formation of new species over time? What natural force would prevent
evolution from happening?
.

User: "Budikka"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen?	26 Jun 2004 08:51:30 PM

"Dave F" <davef@cablespeed.com> wrote in message news:<10dr1keodrgu1cf@corp.supernews.com>...
There are creationists who might respond to this by arguing that they
never claimed there is no mutation or variation, but that mutation and
variation, whilst explaining what they term "micro-evolution" cannot
account for what they term "macro-evolution". Their position is that
this god of theirs "built-in" a certain amount of variation to aid
each organism's survival. Of course, this pisses all over a perfect
creation, but they ignore that little problem.
All you have to do, if they do call up that purported dichotomy, is
hit 'em with a request that they define the mechanism which would
allow the one (micro) and prevent the other (macro). I've never met a
creationist who can even begin to explain it. Without such a
preventative mechanism, of course, they're lost. There *is* no
difference between micro and macro, the latter being nothing more than
an accumulation of the former.
In order to even think about defining such a mechanism they would have
to define "kind", and I've never met a creationist who can do that
competently, either.
Then whilst they're still floundering pathetically over that, hit 'em
with the fact that having sequenced the mouse genome, scientists
discovered that there are apparently only 600 genes (out of the 30,000
or so that we each possess) that are different between us and mice!
They have 300 we do not, and we have 300 they do not. In simplistic
terms, this means that both we and mice have acquired 300 genes that
the other did not since we separated from our common ancestor,
whenever that was.
We know from fossils that there were organisms at least skeletally
akin to mice running around when the dinosaurs were in charge. Let's
take a pessimistic position and say that our common ancestor lived 60
million years ago.
Where they got the figure I don't know, but creationists typically
claim that a gene averages 100,000 base pairs, so I use it. Times 300
genes means that even if every single base pair in every one of those
differing 300 genes had to change, then we had to switch 30 million
base pairs in 60 million years, or one base pair every two years. How
hard is that - especially at the breeding rates that smaller mammals
enjoy? Simplistic and assumptive as it may be, I've never met any
creationist willing to even try to refute this proposition.
The average creationist (and let's face it most of them are
paradoxically below average!) is scared of the genome. They don't
want to look at it. They dare not look at it and I'm guessing that
most of them haven't even thought about it. What they want to look at
is gross anatomical form, and then only of the organisms we're most
familiar with: trees, lions, elephants, dogs, snakes, fish, flowers,
some insects, etc.
It's easy for them to fool themselves when they look at a tree and an
elephant and then pretend that evolutionists insist that one gave
direct birth to the other, but they dare not face the fact that human
DNA and chimpanzee DNA, for example, are almost exactly alike.
Clearly a tree cannot give birth to an elephant, nor can a lizard give
birth to a bird, nor a chimpanzee to a human, but given sufficient
time, something similar to chimpanzee DNA can give birth to human DNA,
and lizard DNA can give birth to bird DNA, and creationists cannot
refute this no matter how desperately they need to in order to keep
their myth alive.
Budikka
.

User: "Jenny6833A"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen?	26 Jun 2004 12:06:55 PM

"Dave F"

says in part

4. Most mutations, by far, are harmful. But, in a large population, a few
changes would occur which would help a species move into another habitat or
gain an advantage over its peers in the habitat it is in. Also, some
mutations would occur which would make the mutated one more attractive to
members of the opposite sex. For example, in a species of bird where the
female is attracted to a blue color, a mutation that turns the offspring
from a pale blue to a deep, metallic blue, might give the male offspring an
advantage over his pale blue brothers.

Is there something here to disagree with?

5. DNA sequences that include mutations that provide a survival or
reproductive benefit will be retained and expand throughout the population.
Those that don't will generally not expand throughout populations.

How could this not happen?

I don't claim to have kept up on modern thinking on mutations, so I'm looking
for some help here.
Dave, you seem to be dealing only with beneficial or harmful mutations whereas
I thought a third variety are neutral -- neither beneficial nor harmful -- or
so close to neutral that they have no effect on evolution. I'm thinking of
foot shape, nose shape and size, fingernail shapes, hair or no hair on arms,
etc.
I further thought these neutral characteristics piggybacked on those that
actually made a difference: they propogate along with a beneficial
characteristics or die out along with harmful ones.
Comments?
:-)
Jenny
Before emailing, remove Clothes
.

User: "Eric Pepke"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen?	26 Jun 2004 06:40:33 PM

jenny6833a@aol.comClothes (Jenny6833A) wrote in message news:<20040626130655.13589.00000559@mb-m12.aol.com>...

Dave, you seem to be dealing only with beneficial or harmful mutations whereas
I thought a third variety are neutral -- neither beneficial nor harmful -- or
so close to neutral that they have no effect on evolution. I'm thinking of
foot shape, nose shape and size, fingernail shapes, hair or no hair on arms,
etc.

This is true. There's also the large number of introns, which are
genes that never
get expressed at all and seem to have no effect whatsoever. These are
good for
dating lineages because, as they have no effect, natural selection can
be presumed
not to have worked directly on them, so the statistics becomes a lot
easier.
However, this is not essential to the argument, so it doesn't really
make a difference.
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen?	28 Jun 2004 09:32:13 AM

(Eric Pepke) wrote in alt.atheism

Jenny6833A wrote in message

Dave, you seem to be dealing only with beneficial or harmful mutations
whereas I thought a third variety are neutral -- neither beneficial nor
harmful -- or so close to neutral that they have no effect on evolution.
I'm thinking of foot shape, nose shape and size, fingernail shapes, hair
or no hair on arms, etc.

This is true. There's also the large number of introns, which are
genes that never get expressed at all and seem to have no effect
whatsoever. These are good for dating lineages because, as they
have no effect, natural selection can be presumed not to have worked
directly on them, so the statistics becomes a lot easier.
However, this is not essential to the argument, so it doesn't really
make a difference.

Which is more or less evolved? A sea turtle with flippers for legs
and arms, or a box turtle with sharp claws?
Do you believe or imagine that the sea turtles were created first, and
then crawled up onto land to produce the box turtles, or do you see
it the other way around?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen?	26 Jun 2004 09:39:58 AM

Dave F <davef@cablespeed.com> wrote in alt.atheism

Not me.

There is a massive amount of direct evidence that ties specific traits to identifiable
base pair sequences.
2. The sequence of base pairs is passed through generations from parent to
child
Again - this is directly observable, and the basis of paternity tests, among
other things.
3. The process for replicating DNA base pairs from parent to child, while
usually very accurate, is not perfect. Sometimes changes (mutations) to
these base pairs occurs due to cosmic radiation, the action of chemical
contaminants, or other factors.

I've asked creationists to explain why the incorrect copying of DNA
takes place, and whether their god has anything to do with it, but
most of them shy away from answering, or say that the devil causes
the mutations, or that the incorrect copying only started after the
fictional Adam and Eve ate from some forbidden fruit. Before that,
all animals were exact clones of their parents, I guess... Heh.
<snip the rest>
You seem to have a pretty good handle on evolution and the mechanisms
involved, and I don't disagree with anything else you posted.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: ""
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen?	26 Jun 2004 10:23:58 AM

"Elroy Willis" <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:hn5rd0pst9e91e586v88kogoptvp31motg@4ax.com...

Dave F <davef@cablespeed.com> wrote in alt.atheism

A question I like to sometimes pose to creationists is: Given what we

know

about genetics and nature, how could evolution not occur? What would
prevent it?

The process that leads to evolution consists of the following elements:

1. The makeup of living creatures is dictated mostly by the sequence of
base pairs in DNA (there are other factors as well, but the base pair
sequence is particularly important)

Do any of you disagree with that?

Not me.

There is a massive amount of direct evidence that ties specific traits

to identifiable

base pair sequences.

2. The sequence of base pairs is passed through generations from parent

child

Again - this is directly observable, and the basis of paternity tests,

among

other things.

3. The process for replicating DNA base pairs from parent to child,

while

usually very accurate, is not perfect. Sometimes changes (mutations) to
these base pairs occurs due to cosmic radiation, the action of chemical
contaminants, or other factors.

I've asked creationists to explain why the incorrect copying of DNA
takes place, and whether their god has anything to do with it, but
most of them shy away from answering, or say that the devil causes
the mutations, or that the incorrect copying only started after the
fictional Adam and Eve ate from some forbidden fruit. Before that,
all animals were exact clones of their parents, I guess... Heh.

<snip the rest>

You seem to have a pretty good handle on evolution and the mechanisms
involved, and I don't disagree with anything else you posted.

--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news

Even that makes no sense. How could they be exact clones of their parents?
If you blend 2 things you get something totally new.
Kathryn
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen?	26 Jun 2004 10:38:57 AM

wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message

Dave F <davef@cablespeed.com> wrote in alt.atheism

3. The process for replicating DNA base pairs from parent to child,
while usually very accurate, is not perfect. Sometimes changes
(mutations) to these base pairs occurs due to cosmic radiation, the
action of chemical contaminants, or other factors.

Even that makes no sense. How could they be exact clones of their
parents? If you blend 2 things you get something totally new.

Don't ask me to make sense of creationist reasoning. It falls flat
on its face, in my opinion. Their logic and supposed rational
thinking has been destroyed by their god myth, so it seems.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "Uncle Dollar Bill"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen?	26 Jun 2004 01:37:54 PM

In alt.atheism on Sat, 26 Jun 2004 15:23:58 +0000 (UTC),
"kathrynahunter@btinternet.com"
<kathrynahunterlosethis@btinternet.com> wrote:

"Elroy Willis" <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:hn5rd0pst9e91e586v88kogoptvp31motg@4ax.com...

Dave F <davef@cablespeed.com> wrote in alt.atheism

A question I like to sometimes pose to creationists is: Given what we

know

about genetics and nature, how could evolution not occur? What would
prevent it?

The process that leads to evolution consists of the following elements:

1. The makeup of living creatures is dictated mostly by the sequence of
base pairs in DNA (there are other factors as well, but the base pair
sequence is particularly important)

Do any of you disagree with that?

Not me.

There is a massive amount of direct evidence that ties specific traits

to identifiable

base pair sequences.

2. The sequence of base pairs is passed through generations from parent

child

Again - this is directly observable, and the basis of paternity tests,

among

other things.

3. The process for replicating DNA base pairs from parent to child,

while

usually very accurate, is not perfect. Sometimes changes (mutations) to
these base pairs occurs due to cosmic radiation, the action of chemical
contaminants, or other factors.

I've asked creationists to explain why the incorrect copying of DNA
takes place, and whether their god has anything to do with it, but
most of them shy away from answering, or say that the devil causes
the mutations, or that the incorrect copying only started after the
fictional Adam and Eve ate from some forbidden fruit. Before that,
all animals were exact clones of their parents, I guess... Heh.

<snip the rest>

You seem to have a pretty good handle on evolution and the mechanisms
involved, and I don't disagree with anything else you posted.

--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news

Even that makes no sense. How could they be exact clones of their parents?
If you blend 2 things you get something totally new.

Functionally speaking, if we're speaking of a perfect genome that
never mutates, they _would_ be clones of their parents. The male
genome would be the same as the female genome, the XY thang (or
whatever it is in any given animal) being the only difference. I
guess it would be more proper to call such a state "heterogenous", but
"clones" work about as well. :-)
--
L8r,
Uncle Dollar Bill
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen?	26 Jun 2004 11:30:27 AM

(Uncle Dollar Bill) wrote in alt.atheism

<kathrynahunterlosethis@btinternet.com> wrote:

Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message

<snip>

Even that makes no sense. How could they be exact clones of their
parents? If you blend 2 things you get something totally new.

Where did the blue and green eye genes come from? And the
blonde and red hair genes as well? Magic, or incorrect copying
of DNA? A gift from some god, or a curse from some devil?
Adam was a blue-eyed blonde-haired Viking, and Eve was a dark-haired
dark-eyed French or Spanish Woman who liked the look of Adam.
"Hoo boy, he makes my heart throb and my loins boil..." :)
I've read several different accounts that say some of the early
European women found the blonde hair and blue eyes of many
of the Vikings as beautiful, and something they wanted to pass on
as a trait to their children.
I dunno if it's true or not, but rumor has it that the Viking men kept
their hair a lot cleaner than many other men in different cultures of
the time, who hardly ever washed their hair, or rolled up their greasy
hair inside turbins, or simply shaved it all off to prevent lice...
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Micha=EBl?="
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen?	26 Jun 2004 11:43:22 AM

Elroy Willis a =E9crit :

Adam was a blue-eyed blonde-haired Viking, and Eve was a dark-haired
dark-eyed French or Spanish Woman who liked the look of Adam.

Hum, they were both Africans. Adam was a tall muscular Masai and Eve a=20
beautiful Ethiopian girl.
The blue-eyed blonde-haired first descendant was an adopted one.

"Hoo boy, he makes my heart throb and my loins boil..." :)

But this quote is totally true. :)

I've read several different accounts that say some of the early
European women found the blonde hair and blue eyes of many
of the Vikings as beautiful, and something they wanted to pass on
as a trait to their children.

Specially the women from Scandinavia :)

I dunno if it's true or not, but rumor has it that the Viking men kept
their hair a lot cleaner than many other men in different cultures of
the time, who hardly ever washed their hair, or rolled up their greasy
hair inside turbins, or simply shaved it all off to prevent lice...

That's disgusting.
Well, maybe not in Europe, but in other parts of the planet.
Micha=EBlM
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen?	26 Jun 2004 12:24:22 PM

Micha�l <monzo@free.fr> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis a �crit :

Parlez vous francais?

Adam was a blue-eyed blonde-haired Viking, and Eve was a
dark-haired dark-eyed French or Spanish Woman who liked the
look of Adam.

Hum, they were both Africans.

I was actually just speculating or making believe up above. I don't
really believe there were some individual Adam and Eve characters,
in any particular story that someone has come up with from their
imaginations.

Adam was a tall muscular Masai and Eve a beautiful Ethiopian girl.
The blue-eyed blonde-haired first descendant was an adopted one.

Adopted? Found floating in a basket in a river, perhaps?

"Hoo boy, he makes my heart throb and my loins boil..." :)

But this quote is totally true. :)

Yes, lots of women seem to swoon over blond-haired men. The
Jesus character seems to have morphed from dark skinned and
dark haired to light skinned and light haired among many of the
women who think Jesus is their saviour. He's the light of my
world they say, so he could hardly be dark skinned, could he?
I'm not so sure if the male Jesus believers really care about the skin
color or eye color or hair color of Jesus, do they? Hmm...

Specially the women from Scandinavia :)

They were dark haired to begin with?

That's disgusting.

Which parts?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Micha=EBl?="
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen?	26 Jun 2004 01:01:33 PM

Elroy Willis a =E9crit :

Micha=EBl <monzo@free.fr> wrote in alt.atheism
=20
=20

Elroy Willis a =E9crit :

=20
=20
Parlez vous francais?

Oui monsieur.

Hum, they were both Africans.

=20
=20
I was actually just speculating or making believe up above. I don't
really believe there were some individual Adam and Eve characters,
in any particular story that someone has come up with from their
imaginations.

Me too.
Moi aussi.
Except the fact that first humans (homo sapiens sapiens) were in fact=20
really Africans.

Adam was a tall muscular Masai and Eve a beautiful Ethiopian girl.
The blue-eyed blonde-haired first descendant was an adopted one.

=20
=20
Adopted? Found floating in a basket in a river, perhaps?

Yes Sir.

In the US maybe. Not the Case in France.

He's the light of my
world they say, so he could hardly be dark skinned, could he?

A dark light maybe. Well, there's a black Virgin Mary in South of France.=
She's gorgeous (I like Virgin Mary).

I dunno if it's true or not, but rumor has it that the Viking men kept=
their hair a lot cleaner than many other men in different cultures of
the time, who hardly ever washed their hair, or rolled up their greasy=
hair inside turbins, or simply shaved it all off to prevent lice...

=20
=20

That's disgusting.

=20
=20
Which parts?

The 'lice' one. My head is scratchy now.
Micha=EBlM
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen?	27 Jun 2004 09:10:07 AM

Micha�l <monzo@free.fr> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis a �crit :

Micha�l <monzo@free.fr> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis a �crit :

Parlez vous francais?

Oui monsieur.

Your native language?
<babelfish>
Votre langue maternelle?
I couldn't remember the French word for "native" so I had to
babelfish it. Interesting that babelfish translated the word "native"
to "maternelle" when using the whole phrase.
Who was it that decided that "your native language" should
be translated as "votre langue maternelle" instead of "votre
langue paternel?"
Why not "votre langue indig�ne" instead?
Indig�ne looks a lot like "indiginous" to me, and related to
"indian" and "indo" and other such words, and they all seem
to be gender inspecific so far as I can tell.
Where did the custom of giving such words a male or female gender
come from originally, in your opinion?
Did most ancient people consider all physical objects as either
male or female in some way? Did they not consider some objects
as neutral in gender, like a rock?

Hum, they were both Africans.

Me too.
Moi aussi.
Except the fact that first humans (homo sapiens sapiens) were in fact
really Africans.

But not some single pair of a male and female so-called humans.
The idea that we all came from eight people who climbed off
of some ancient wooden boat built by people who believe their
god created rainbows to say he was sorry for flooding the world
is a joke, imo. Just an ancient myth that some people think is
really true, sad as it seems to me...
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Micha=EBl?="
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen?	27 Jun 2004 04:03:00 PM

Elroy Willis a =E9crit :

Your native language?
=20
<babelfish>
Votre langue maternelle?

Oui. Je suis fran=E7ais (ah ah, try to find '=E7' on your keyboard!).
Bebelfish is OK but not perfect. But it's nice when you want to check=20
for stupid games or information on japanese websites for example.

I couldn't remember the French word for "native" so I had to
babelfish it. Interesting that babelfish translated the word "native"
to "maternelle" when using the whole phrase.

But that's correct. "d'origine" is correct too, but not really used.

Who was it that decided that "your native language" should
be translated as "votre langue maternelle" instead of "votre
langue paternel?"

Like "mother tongue".
The funny thing is with "homeland".
In French "mother homeland": la m=E8re patrie.
'Patrie' comes from the latin 'Pater', the land of our ancestors, or=20
Fathers.
I think it's the opposite in German, but I'm not sure.
And "langue" is feminine anyway.

Where did the custom of giving such words a male or female gender
come from originally, in your opinion?

Don't know. Some language lose this specificity after some times, like=20
Persian, which had masculin and feminine before, but not now, except for =
the Dari, a dialect spoken in Afghanistan.
Maybe it's related to the definition of the world as something not=20
neutral but double like in Taoism, or the Patriarchal system, and maybe=20
sometimes Matriarchal, or the over-sexualisation of what is around us.

Did most ancient people consider all physical objects as either
male or female in some way? Did they not consider some objects
as neutral in gender, like a rock?

In German it's the case. Not in French. You have to choose. But the=20
masculin is often considered like a neutral (I think it comes from the=20
patriarchal society).

Except the fact that first humans (homo sapiens sapiens) were in fact=20
really Africans.

=20
=20
But not some single pair of a male and female so-called humans.

Agree with that.

The idea that we all came from eight people who climbed off
of some ancient wooden boat built by people who believe their
god created rainbows to say he was sorry for flooding the world
is a joke, imo. Just an ancient myth that some people think is
really true, sad as it seems to me...

No, you really mean that some people still believe that Noah is not a=20
myth? ;)
Bien,
Micha=EBlM
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen?	28 Jun 2004 08:54:46 AM

Micha�l <monzo@free.fr> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis a �crit :

Your native language?
Votre langue maternelle?

Oui. Je suis fran�ais (ah ah, try to find '�' on your keyboard!).

Il est 0xe7 dans l'hexad�cimal. Takes at least three or four
keystrokes to reproduce it en anglais, via ALT-xxx.
How many keys does a French keyboard actually have? I've never
seen one before.

Bebelfish is OK but not perfect. But it's nice when you want to check
for stupid games or information on japanese websites for example.

It comes in handy sometimes, for sure...

I couldn't remember the French word for "native" so I had to
babelfish it. Interesting that babelfish translated the word "native"
to "maternelle" when using the whole phrase.

But that's correct. "d'origine" is correct too, but not really used.

De or Da origin, en allemand?

Who was it that decided that "your native language" should
be translated as "votre langue maternelle" instead of "votre
langue paternel?"

Like "mother tongue".

An example of the age-old mother verses father, or mere vs. patrie, or
madre vs. padre, or a combination of the two, trying to consolidate
them somehow?

The funny thing is with "homeland".
In French "mother homeland": la m�re patrie.
'Patrie' comes from the latin 'Pater', the land of our ancestors, or
Fathers.

"Pater" seems to come from words like "peter" or "rock" as far as I
can tell. You can see the connection in words like petrified and
petroleum.
Quel est le mot pour "le pere dans le ciel," en francais?
Est il Ju-Pater, in some form or another? :)

I think it's the opposite in German, but I'm not sure.
And "langue" is feminine anyway.

Ah, I guess it makes sense to use "maternal" if the word
"langue" or "language" is already considered feminine in
the first place.

Where did the custom of giving such words a male or female gender
come from originally, in your opinion?

Don't know. Some language lose this specificity after some times, like
Persian, which had masculin and feminine before, but not now, except for
the Dari, a dialect spoken in Afghanistan.

I saw some connections between "le" and "la" and "el" and "al" a few
years ago, and thought there might be something to it, but I haven't
received very much support for the idea over the years. A flipping or
reversal of letters seems to be common among different languages
nonetheless...

Maybe it's related to the definition of the world as something not
neutral but double like in Taoism, or the Patriarchal system, and maybe
sometimes Matriarchal, or the over-sexualisation of what is around us.

In a culture where women are in charge of raising the children, it
would seem logical that the children will learn the language of the
mother and women first, don't you think?

Did most ancient people consider all physical objects as either
male or female in some way? Did they not consider some objects
as neutral in gender, like a rock?

In German it's the case. Not in French. You have to choose. But the
masculin is often considered like a neutral (I think it comes from the
patriarchal society).

Interesting...

Except the fact that first humans (homo sapiens sapiens) were in fact
really Africans.

But not some single pair of a male and female so-called humans.

Agree with that.

No, you really mean that some people still believe that Noah is not a
myth? ;)

At least a few hundred million or maybe even a billion or more, last
time I checked. :)
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Micha=EBlM?="
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen?	28 Jun 2004 10:36:09 AM

Elroy Willis is the first guy I reply to with Mozilla Thunderbird :

Il est 0xe7 dans l'hexad�cimal. Takes at least three or four
keystrokes to reproduce it en anglais, via ALT-xxx.

How many keys does a French keyboard actually have? I've never
seen one before.

More or less like in english. But we use not only Alt and Ctrl, but also
Alt Gr.

De or Da origin, en allemand?

No idea. I'm not a german speaker.

"Pater" seems to come from words like "peter" or "rock" as far as I
can tell. You can see the connection in words like petrified and
petroleum.

Maybe... In hindi, for 'stone', they say 'patthar'. In french it's 'pierre'.
I think in latin it's 'petra'.

Quel est le mot pour "le pere dans le ciel," en francais?

Est il Ju-Pater, in some form or another? :)

Notre p�re qui �tes aux cieux
(the Pater Noster?)

Don't know. Some language lose this specificity after some times, like
Persian, which had masculin and feminine before, but not now, except for
the Dari, a dialect spoken in Afghanistan.

Like in pashto, once again.
A simple example: 'Lion', in Pashto can be call zmarak or zmaray.
But if you say mzaray it's correct too.
And there's many example like that in this language.
le: french. el: spanish (il in italian?).

In a culture where women are in charge of raising the children, it
would seem logical that the children will learn the language of the
mother and women first, don't you think?

Good point.

In German it's the case. Not in French. You have to choose. But the
masculin is often considered like a neutral (I think it comes from the
patriarchal society).

Interesting...

Let's say for example in French, "the teacher".
Even if it's a woman, you will say "le professeur".
Same, If you have two thousand women you will say: elles.
If you have two thousand men, you will say: ils.
But if in this group there's only one man, you will have to say: ils/eux.
Micha�lM
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen - Especially in Languages?	28 Jun 2004 12:24:36 PM

Micha�lM <monzo@free.fr> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis is the first guy I reply to with Mozilla Thunderbird :

Il est 0xe7 dans l'hexad�cimal. Takes at least three or four
keystrokes to reproduce it en anglais, via ALT-xxx.
How many keys does a French keyboard actually have? I've never
seen one before.

More or less like in english. But we use not only Alt and Ctrl, but also
Alt Gr.

You frequently use the alt and ctrl keys while you compose your
messages?

De or Da origin, en allemand?

No idea. I'm not a german speaker.

Me either, although I do like german potato salad!
And swedish meatballs too!
Mon great grandpere et mon great grandmere on le side de mon
pere were from sweden, et les people on my madre's side are
from some part of france.

"Pater" seems to come from words like "peter" or "rock" as far as I
can tell. You can see the connection in words like petrified and
petroleum.
Maybe... In hindi, for 'stone', they say 'patthar'. In french it's 'pierre'.

Pierre is the French word for Peter, isn't it?

I think in latin it's 'petra'.

Petra, rock, and peter all seem to tie to pater, at least in
my own mind they do...

Quel est le mot pour "le pere dans le ciel," en francais?
Est il Ju-Pater, in some form or another? :)

Notre p�re qui �tes aux cieux

Quel est la difference between ciel and cieux?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Micha=EBlM?="
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen - Especially in Languages?	28 Jun 2004 01:33:06 PM

Elroy (le roi= the King)
Willis ('William' meaning 'valiant protector' or 'resolute guardian')
So The Valiant King protector wrote, from his camp in eastern-Anatolia:

More or less like in english. But we use not only Alt and Ctrl, but also
Alt Gr.

You frequently use the alt and ctrl keys while you compose your
messages?

no. In fact only for the Capital letter with an accent like
�... and only alt+ the number (but it's crap)
@ is made with AltGr+ 0 for example. Same for ~ in �, or ^...

Me either, although I do like german potato salad!

And swedish meatballs too!

Mon great grandpere et mon great grandmere on le side de mon
pere were from sweden, et les people on my madre's side are
from some part of france.

You speak like the crazy monk in "The Name of the Rose".
"Stupido stupido, no comprendo..."
German potato salad is with vinaigrette right?
J'ai faim...

Maybe... In hindi, for 'stone', they say 'patthar'. In french it's 'pierre'.

Pierre is the French word for Peter, isn't it?

Yes it is. The translation of the Bible in French kept some of the jokes
from the original text. ;)

I think in latin it's 'petra'.

Petra, rock, and peter all seem to tie to pater, at least in
my own mind they do...

Don't know. 'Papa' (dad) is often used in Europe and in the Indian
subcontinent. Must come from the same origine.

Quel est le mot pour "le pere dans le ciel," en francais?

Est il Ju-Pater, in some form or another? :)

Do you try to link Pater with Jupiter?
Ok, Dyaus Pita, in hinduism, according to Wikipedia, is like Zeus or
Jupiter for the Greeks and the Romans respectively. The funny part is
that until know, people use 'Pita' for 'father' in hindi ('mata-pita'
means parents for example).
I think that the link seems clear. But the stone??? Not sure.

Notre p�re qui �tes aux cieux

Quel est la difference between ciel and cieux?

It's the plural.
Un ciel, des cieux. Because there's different levels in the sky,
according to the Jewish tradition and maybe also to the greco-latin one.
Micha�lM
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen - Especially in Languages?	29 Jun 2004 09:48:25 AM

Micha�lM <monzo@free.fr> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy (le roi= the King)
Willis ('William' meaning 'valiant protector' or 'resolute guardian')
So The Valiant King protector wrote, from his camp in eastern-Anatolia:

Valiant King protector... Interesting...
I sometimes wonder if a king who could speak a bunch of different
languages would stand a better chance than one who had to rely on
a bunch of translators...

More or less like in english. But we use not only Alt and Ctrl, but also
Alt Gr.

You frequently use the alt and ctrl keys while you compose your
messages?

no. In fact only for the Capital letter with an accent like
�... and only alt+ the number (but it's crap)
@ is made with AltGr+ 0 for example. Same for ~ in �, or ^...

So it's not really a whole lot more typing, at least if you've got the
proper keyboard and get used to using it, so it seems.

You speak like the crazy monk in "The Name of the Rose".
" Stupido stupido, no comprendo..."

C'est mon franglais et spanglais. :)

German potato salad is with vinaigrette right?

A little vinegar, and even some bacon bits in some of the
recipes. Yum yum!

J'ai faim...

Mois aussi. :)

Maybe... In hindi, for 'stone', they say 'patthar'. In french it's 'pierre'.

Pierre is the French word for Peter, isn't it?

Yes it is. The translation of the Bible in French kept some of the jokes
from the original text. ;)

Which ones?

I think in latin it's 'petra'.

Petra, rock, and peter all seem to tie to pater, at least in
my own mind they do...

Don't know. 'Papa' (dad) is often used in Europe and in the Indian
subcontinent.

In the family of my brother-in-law, Nana and Papa are used to refer to
Grandmother and Grandfather, but I see Papa used to refer to father
quite often as well. I'm not sure where Nana comes from... I haven't
looked into it yet.

Quel est le mot pour "le pere dans le ciel," en francais?
Est il Ju-Pater, in some form or another? :)

Do you try to link Pater with Jupiter?

Certainement! Il est Zeus-Pater, le pere dans le ciel.

Ok, Dyaus Pita, in hinduism, according to Wikipedia, is like Zeus or
Jupiter for the Greeks and the Romans respectively.

Oui. Dies-Pater est le meme comme Ju-Pater.
Wow, put that into Babelfish, and look what it comes up with:
"Yes. Dies-lord' s Prayer is the same one like Ju-lord' s Prayer."
What I meant to say was that Zeus-Pater and Dies-Pater are
the same thing as Ju-Piter...
How did the word "Prayer" get in there, en francais?
Notre p�re dan le ciel?
Our father who art in heaven?

The funny part is that until know, people use 'Pita' for 'father'
in hindi ('mata-pita' means parents for example).

I can see matriarch and patriarch in mata and pita, if I try
very hard... :)

I think that the link seems clear. But the stone??? Not sure.

Have you done any reading about ancient meteorite cults?
They worshipped "stones which fell from the sky." The muslims
still worship some black stone meteorite in mecca.
I didn't know much about them until someone around here mentioned
them, but it seems that people worshipped rocks which fell from the
sky and still do. The rock, or petra, or peter, ou pierre, are all
references to rock.
There is another connection though, between the ancient city of
Petra, which was carved out of solid rock walls, and it was located
in the middle of a prosperous trade route, and the Romans wanted
to take control of it. The area is supposed to contain a cave in
which many people believe the bones of the biblical patriarchs are
buried in.
If you have access to a french bible, what does the following verse
show?
Acts 19:35
"And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, Ye men of
Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the
Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image
which fell down from Jupiter?"
What does the last word say in the above verse, en francais?
Does it actually say Jupiter, or does it say Zeus, or does it perhaps
say ciel, instead?

Notre p�re qui �tes aux cieux

Quel est la difference between ciel and cieux?

It's the plural.
Un ciel, des cieux.

Ah. I see.

Because there's different levels in the sky, according to the Jewish
tradition and maybe also to the greco-latin one.

And also to the persian and indian or hindu traditions.
Is the phrase "I'm in seventh heaven" common en francais?
If so, what do the people who use it think it really means?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Micha=EBlM?="
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen - Especially in Languages?	29 Jun 2004 02:08:37 PM

"Little Elroy Willis wrote a beautiful poem today. Can he recite his
poem in front of the class?
-Yes M'am" :

Pierre is the French word for Peter, isn't it?

Yes it is. The translation of the Bible in French kept some of the jokes
from the original text. ;)

Which ones?

Hum, for the rock:
Matthew 16:18
"And I say also unto thee, That thou are Peter, and upon this rock I
will build my church;"
"Et moi, je te dis que tu es Pierre,
^^^^^^
et que sur cette pierre je b�tirai mon �glise;"
^^^^^^
There is also Matthew 27:46, when Jesus say "Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani".
Some People were thinking that he was calling for Elias, dumb people.
But it works in French: Elias is called '�lie' in French.

Wow, put that into Babelfish, and look what it comes up with:

"Yes. Dies-lord' s Prayer is the same one like Ju-lord' s Prayer."

What I meant to say was that Zeus-Pater and Dies-Pater are
the same thing as Ju-Piter...

How did the word "Prayer" get in there, en francais?

Pater is the Pater Noster, the prayer.
Like Ave Maria, but for the Father.

Notre p�re dan le ciel?

Our father who art in heaven?

Yes

I can see matriarch and patriarch in mata and pita, if I try
very hard... :)

It is. (short fast)

Have you done any reading about ancient meteorite cults?
They worshipped "stones which fell from the sky." The muslims
still worship some black stone meteorite in mecca.

Is there any other famous examples?
According to Ast�rix le gaulois (a French comic), the only thing Gauls
were afraid of was that the sky will fall on their head.
It's linked to their cult, the true one, not the comic one. So maybe
there's a link.

I didn't know much about them until someone around here mentioned
them, but it seems that people worshipped rocks which fell from the
sky and still do. The rock, or petra, or peter, ou pierre, are all
references to rock.

Hindus still worship any stone which has a strange shape. In many
villages you can find them painted in orange and with rose petals on it.
It's a kind of god...

There is another connection though, between the ancient city of
Petra, which was carved out of solid rock walls, and it was located
in the middle of a prosperous trade route, and the Romans wanted
to take control of it. The area is supposed to contain a cave in
which many people believe the bones of the biblical patriarchs are
buried in.

Ah ah!!!! The cave in Indiana Jones and the last Crusade?

If you have access to a french bible, what does the following verse
show?

Acts 19:35
"And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, Ye men of
Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the
Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image
which fell down from Jupiter?"

Hum... Found it:
Bible de J�rusalem:
"Enfin le chancelier calma la foule et dit: "�ph�siens, quel homme au
monde ignore que la ville d'�ph�se est la gardienne du temple de la
grande Art�mis et de sa statue tomb�e du ciel?"
Art�mis is the greek equivalent of the roman Diana.

What does the last word say in the above verse, en francais?

Ciel. (???)

Does it actually say Jupiter, or does it say Zeus, or does it perhaps
say ciel, instead?

Ciel (??? Ah ah!!!)

Is the phrase "I'm in seventh heaven" common en francais?
If so, what do the people who use it think it really means?

Je suis au septi�me ciel!
Yes we say it too. Something like "I'm in heaven".
Micha�lM
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen - Especially in Languages?	30 Jun 2004 07:55:42 AM

Micha�lM <monzo@free.fr> wrote in alt.atheism

"Little Elroy Willis wrote a beautiful poem today. Can he recite his
poem in front of the class?
-Yes M'am" :

<snip>

Have you done any reading about ancient meteorite cults?
They worshipped "stones which fell from the sky." The muslims
still worship some black stone meteorite in mecca.

Is there any other famous examples?

From:
http://www.haberer-meteorite.de/english/Culture%20and%20religion.htm
"With these manifold examples, it isn't amazing, that also in the
Greek-Roman history again and again one steps on meteorites-cults.
According to the religious historian Mircea Eliade, both the Palladion
of Troja, the Arthemis of Ephesus as well as the cone of the Elagabal
in Emesa are of meteoric origin."
The Arthemis of Ephesus is mentioned in the bible verse below,
and many people believe that the temple to Arthemis/Diana was built
around a meteorite which fell from the sky.

According to Ast�rix le gaulois (a French comic), the only thing Gauls
were afraid of was that the sky will fall on their head.
It's linked to their cult, the true one, not the comic one. So maybe
there's a link.

C'est possible.

Hindus still worship any stone which has a strange shape. In many
villages you can find them painted in orange and with rose petals on it.
It's a kind of god...

From the above link:
"And in India meteoritologists again and again have problems when a
new meteorite fall in their country is observed: usually their hindu
countrymen erected already a shrine around the holy stone before the
scientists are on the spot at all."

Ah ah!!!! The cave in Indiana Jones and the last Crusade?

Je ne sais pas.
I have seen commentaries that claim that Jesus was actually
standing in the city of Petra when he made the "You are Peter, and
upon this rock I will build my church" statement. Rome certainly
wanted to take control of Petra, and building a church on top of some
already established "holy site" would be one way to go about it.
Capturing an existing holy site, and then overlaying it with the
religion of the conquerors was common back then. Look at what
the Muslims did when they took over Jerusalem. They built a mosque
right on top of the Jewish holy rock where Abraham was supposed to
have been willing to sacrifice his son. They made up a story about
Muhammad ascending into heaven from the same rock, and all of the
sudden, Jerusalem became a holy site for them when it hadn't
really been one before, as far as I can tell.

If you have access to a french bible, what does the following verse
show?
Acts 19:35 (KJV)
"And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, Ye men of
Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the
Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image
which fell down from Jupiter?"

What does the last word say in the above verse, en francais?

Ciel. (???)

Does it actually say Jupiter, or does it say Zeus, or does it perhaps
say ciel, instead?

Ciel (??? Ah ah!!!)

The KJV uses "Jupiter" but the NKJV uses "Zeus," and the NLV
uses "stone god," and "fell from the sky."
Acts 19:35 (NLV)
"One of the city leaders stopped the noise. He spoke, 'Men of Ephesus,
everyone knows our city is where the god of Diana is kept. That is the
stone god that fell from the sky."
Interesting, eh?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "Harry F. Leopold"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen - Especially in Languages?	29 Jun 2004 05:12:18 PM

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:48:25 -0500, Elroy Willis wrote
(in article <03u2e0pnteot1d1ckj0heektchd4rgklrk@4ax.com>):
snip

Ok, Dyaus Pita, in hinduism, according to Wikipedia, is like Zeus or
Jupiter for the Greeks and the Romans respectively.

Oui. Dies-Pater est le meme comme Ju-Pater.

Wow, put that into Babelfish, and look what it comes up with:

"Yes. Dies-lord' s Prayer is the same one like Ju-lord' s Prayer."

What I meant to say was that Zeus-Pater and Dies-Pater are
the same thing as Ju-Piter...

How did the word "Prayer" get in there, en francais?

Pater Nostra (the Latin title for The Lords Prayer), the people that program
Babelfish obviously tried to deal with incomplete statements or words, and as
usual it doesn't always work correctly.

Notre p�re dan le ciel?

Our father who art in heaven?

--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)
Campus Crusade for Cthulhu Supporter
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen - Especially in Languages?	30 Jun 2004 09:42:01 AM

Harry F. Leopold <hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis wrote
snip

Ok, Dyaus Pita, in hinduism, according to Wikipedia, is like Zeus or
Jupiter for the Greeks and the Romans respectively.

Pater Nostra (the Latin title for The Lords Prayer), the people that
program Babelfish obviously tried to deal with incomplete statements
or words, and as usual it doesn't always work correctly.

So "pater nostra" means "father our" or "our father" if taken
literally, correct?
Nostra Damus must mean "our something," then, doesn't it?
What does the Damus mean or stand for?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "Enkidu"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen - Especially in Languages?	30 Jun 2004 10:28:46 AM

In article <sam5e05rc46he54iuspom5e3r93jij5h3n@4ax.com>,

says...

Harry F. Leopold <hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis wrote

snip

Ok, Dyaus Pita, in hinduism, according to Wikipedia, is like Zeus or
Jupiter for the Greeks and the Romans respectively.

Oui. Dies-Pater est le meme comme Ju-Pater.

Wow, put that into Babelfish, and look what it comes up with:

"Yes. Dies-lord' s Prayer is the same one like Ju-lord' s Prayer."

What I meant to say was that Zeus-Pater and Dies-Pater are
the same thing as Ju-Piter...

How did the word "Prayer" get in there, en francais?

Pater Nostra (the Latin title for The Lords Prayer), the people that
program Babelfish obviously tried to deal with incomplete statements
or words, and as usual it doesn't always work correctly.

So "pater nostra" means "father our" or "our father" if taken
literally, correct?

Nostra Damus must mean "our something," then, doesn't it?

What does the Damus mean or stand for?

Our Dumb-*****? Considering how accurate his predictions have been, it's
not a bad choice.
--
Enkidu - AA# 2165
EAC Plant Psychologist
"Today, the theory of evolution is an accepted fact for
everyone but a fundamentalist minority, whose objections
are based not on reasoning but on doctrinaire adherence
to religious principles"
James D. Watson
http://www.nobel.se/medicine/laureates/1962/watson-bio.html
"The Astonishing Hypothesis is that `You,' your joys and
your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your
sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no
more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells
and their associated molecules."
Francis Crick
http://www.nobel.se/medicine/laureates/1962/crick-bio.html
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen - Especially in Languages?	30 Jun 2004 11:04:47 AM

Enkidu <enkidu@leaddogs.org> wrote in alt.atheism

elo@airmail.net says...

Harry F. Leopold <hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis wrote
snip

Ok, Dyaus Pita, in hinduism, according to Wikipedia, is like
Zeus or Jupiter for the Greeks and the Romans respectively.

Pater Nostra (the Latin title for The Lords Prayer), the people that
program Babelfish obviously tried to deal with incomplete statements
or words, and as usual it doesn't always work correctly.

So "pater nostra" means "father our" or "our father" if taken
literally, correct?
Nostra Damus must mean "our something," then, doesn't it?
What does the Damus mean or stand for?

Our Dumb-*****? Considering how accurate his predictions have been,
it's not a bad choice.

I think the football players at Notre Dame might want to kick your
***** for that remark, eh? Calling them dumb asses might be an
insult to their intelligence...
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "Enkidu"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen - Especially in Languages?	30 Jun 2004 08:15:32 PM

In article <b4s5e09gq5kmfuet4asl94qj3a7j4i3ehm@4ax.com>,

says...

Enkidu <enkidu@leaddogs.org> wrote in alt.atheism

says...

Harry F. Leopold <hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis wrote

snip

Ok, Dyaus Pita, in hinduism, according to Wikipedia, is like
Zeus or Jupiter for the Greeks and the Romans respectively.

Oui. Dies-Pater est le meme comme Ju-Pater.

Wow, put that into Babelfish, and look what it comes up with:

"Yes. Dies-lord' s Prayer is the same one like Ju-lord' s Prayer."

What I meant to say was that Zeus-Pater and Dies-Pater are
the same thing as Ju-Piter...

How did the word "Prayer" get in there, en francais?

Pater Nostra (the Latin title for The Lords Prayer), the people that
program Babelfish obviously tried to deal with incomplete statements
or words, and as usual it doesn't always work correctly.

So "pater nostra" means "father our" or "our father" if taken
literally, correct?

Nostra Damus must mean "our something," then, doesn't it?

What does the Damus mean or stand for?

Our Dumb-*****? Considering how accurate his predictions have been,
it's not a bad choice.

I think the football players at Notre Dame might want to kick your
***** for that remark, eh? Calling them dumb asses might be an
insult to their intelligence...

As I look around, I see only small house apes. Lucky me!
--
Enkidu - AA# 2165
EAC Plant Psychologist
"Today, the theory of evolution is an accepted fact for
everyone but a fundamentalist minority, whose objections
are based not on reasoning but on doctrinaire adherence
to religious principles"
James D. Watson
http://www.nobel.se/medicine/laureates/1962/watson-bio.html
"The Astonishing Hypothesis is that `You,' your joys and
your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your
sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no
more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells
and their associated molecules."
Francis Crick
http://www.nobel.se/medicine/laureates/1962/crick-bio.html
.

User: "Harry F. Leopold"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen - Especially in Languages?	30 Jun 2004 04:08:42 PM

On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:42:01 -0500, Elroy Willis wrote
(in article <sam5e05rc46he54iuspom5e3r93jij5h3n@4ax.com>):

Subject: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen - Especially in
Languages?
From: Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net>
Date: Today 9:42
Newsgroups: alt.atheism

Harry F. Leopold <hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis wrote

snip

Ok, Dyaus Pita, in hinduism, according to Wikipedia, is like Zeus or
Jupiter for the Greeks and the Romans respectively.

Oui. Dies-Pater est le meme comme Ju-Pater.

Wow, put that into Babelfish, and look what it comes up with:

"Yes. Dies-lord' s Prayer is the same one like Ju-lord' s Prayer."

What I meant to say was that Zeus-Pater and Dies-Pater are
the same thing as Ju-Piter...

How did the word "Prayer" get in there, en francais?

Pater Nostra (the Latin title for The Lords Prayer), the people that
program Babelfish obviously tried to deal with incomplete statements
or words, and as usual it doesn't always work correctly.

So "pater nostra" means "father our" or "our father" if taken literally,
correct?

Nostra Damus must mean "our something," then, doesn't it?

What does the Damus mean or stand for?

My Latin dates from the mid-50's, it is very vague and was only slightly more
than alter-boy knowledge. I did go to a Catholic grade school, after all.
--
"Nobody ever expects the peer reviewed journal!"
Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and literacy...literacy and
surprise....
Our two weapons are literacy and surprise... and ruthless
sticklery....
Our three weapons are literacy, surprise, and ruthless sticklery...
and an almost fanatical devotion to Strunk & White....
Our four... no...
Amongst our weapons... Amongst our weaponry...
are such elements as literacy, surprise...
(From Brien and Beowulf)
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen - Especially in Languages?	01 Jul 2004 06:58:18 AM

Harry F. Leopold <hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis wrote in article

Harry F. Leopold <hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis wrote

Ok, Dyaus Pita, in hinduism, according to Wikipedia, is like Zeus or
Jupiter for the Greeks and the Romans respectively.

Any ties to pita bread? Hmm...
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "Jura Koch-Sacher"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen - Especially in Languages?	02 Jul 2004 02:53:45 AM

Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
<t328e0d07poj8avmeft40j6a08ihejjo8a@4ax.com>:

Harry F. Leopold <hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis wrote in article

Harry F. Leopold <hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis wrote

Ok, Dyaus Pita, in hinduism, according to Wikipedia, is like Zeus or
Jupiter for the Greeks and the Romans respectively.

Any ties to pita bread? Hmm...

Not really. From http://www.etymonline.com/p6etym.htm
<quote>
pita - "thick, flat bread," 1951, from Modern Heb. pita or Modern Gk.
petta "bread," perhaps from Gk. peptos "cooked," or somehow connected
to pizza (q.v.).
</quote>
However, the word 'pita' means 'father' in Sanskrit. Again, from
http://www.etymonline.com/j2etym.htm
<quote>
Jupiter - c.1205, "supreme deity of the ancient Romans," from L.
Iupeter, from PIE *dyeu-peter- "god-father," from *deiw-os "god" +
peter "father" in the sense of "male head of a household." Cf. Gk. Zeu
pater, vocative of Zeus pater "Father Zeus;" Skt. Dyauspita "heavenly
father." The planet name is attested from c.1290. Jupiter Pluvius
"Jupiter as dispenser of rain" was used jocularly from 1864.
</quote>
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: How Could Evolution NOT Happen - Especially in Languages?	02 Jul 2004 05:06:51 AM

Jura Koch-Sacher <jura@koch-sacher.com> wrote in alt.atheism

However, the word 'pita' means 'father' in Sanskrit. Again, from
http://www.etymonline.com/j2etym.htm
<quote>
Jupiter - c.1205, "supreme deity of the ancient Romans," from L.
Iupeter, from PIE *dyeu-peter- "god-father," from *deiw-os "god" +
peter "father" in the sense of "male head of a household." Cf. Gk. Zeu
pater, vocative of Zeus pater "Father Zeus;" Skt. Dyauspita "heavenly
father." The planet name is attested from c.1290. Jupiter Pluvius
"Jupiter as dispenser of rain" was used jocularly from 1864.
</quote>

From:
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/j/jupiter.html
"Jupiter is the supreme god of the Roman pantheon, called dies pater,
"shining father"."
It looks like the dyaus and deiw-os could mean "shining" as well
as heavenly. Jupiter does indeed shine in heaven, if you know where
to look for it.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

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