| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Va Fungool" |
| Date: |
14 May 2004 10:30:06 AM |
| Object: |
how do you convince a theist that god if fake? |
First off, I respect people's right to believe what they want, and I
am not calling theists stupid, but how the hell can I convince someone
that god is fake?
I mean, it is painfully obvious to me that god and the bible is a
total myth and that we are nothing more than a highly evolved
insignificant animal on an insignificant plant orbiting an
insignificant medium sized star, lost in a spiral arm of a medium
sized galaxy (one of billions), in an unimaginably vast universe.
How can people actually think than an all powerful, all knowing, all
loving being actually created us...? I mean come one, that is total
friggin lunacy!!!!!
Trying to have a rational conversation with a seemingly intelligent
theist about the topic of god is like talking to a two year old about
Santa...these people are, in many cases, much smarter than I, but they
throw all common sense out the window when it comes to belief in a
mythical being, without one shred of evidence to support his
existence...How sad and pathetic.
Anyway, has anyone ever convinced a religious folk that god is bunk,
and if so, how did you do it?
.
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| User: "Dale" |
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| Title: Re: how do you convince a theist that god if fake? |
14 May 2004 12:23:37 PM |
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"Va Fungool" <scottoline@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a8602b3b.0405140730.5bfc7bd2@posting.google.com...
First off, I respect people's right to believe what they want, and I
am not calling theists stupid, but how the hell can I convince someone
that god is fake?
You're contradicting yourself. You can't respect someone else's right to
believe AND not call them stupid AND be hellbent to convince them that they
are wrong.
I mean, it is painfully obvious to me that god and the bible is a
total myth and that we are nothing more than a highly evolved
insignificant animal on an insignificant plant orbiting an
insignificant medium sized star, lost in a spiral arm of a medium
sized galaxy (one of billions), in an unimaginably vast universe.
How can people actually think than an all powerful, all knowing, all
loving being actually created us...? I mean come one, that is total
friggin lunacy!!!!!
Trying to have a rational conversation with a seemingly intelligent
theist about the topic of god is like talking to a two year old about
Santa...these people are, in many cases, much smarter than I, but they
throw all common sense out the window when it comes to belief in a
mythical being, without one shred of evidence to support his
existence...How sad and pathetic.
Anyway, has anyone ever convinced a religious folk that god is bunk,
and if so, how did you do it?
I would never take it upon myself to do this. If people have faith it's
because they need it. You wouldn't kick the crutches out from under someone
with a broken leg, would you?
I used to believe in God and that whole bit, but the more I studied
religion, the more I realized that God could not have an active role in the
natural world. (Wait, have I told this story before?). Anyway, nowadays
believe in neither God nor not-God, nor do I disbelieve in God or not-God.
It's just a moot question.
So if you still want to mess with someone's beliefs, don't go for the God
part, but rather for the God's presence part. If something has no presence,
then it doesn't matter if it exists or doesn't. If there's no Hell or
Heaven, if there's no afterlife, if there are no miracles, if all prayers go
unaswered, if religious books are not inspired by God, then there's not much
point in God.
But on the other hand, many religionists argue themselves to this point
without even realizing it. If there's no telling who will go to Heaven or
Hell, if many are called but few are chosen, if people escaped the WTC
because "it was not their time" or because "God was looking out for them"
whereas people who didn't escape were "called back home to God", if God does
what He will without regard to any constraint, which He must if He exists in
complete freedom and omnipotence, then what's the point? God or not-God,
there is no difference.
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| User: "Kevin Anthoney" |
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| Title: Re: how do you convince a theist that god if fake? |
14 May 2004 02:51:56 PM |
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Dale wrote:
"Va Fungool" <scottoline@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a8602b3b.0405140730.5bfc7bd2@posting.google.com...
Anyway, has anyone ever convinced a religious folk that god is bunk,
and if so, how did you do it?
I would never take it upon myself to do this. If people have faith it's
because they need it. You wouldn't kick the crutches out from under
someone with a broken leg, would you?
No, but it might be fun to kick away the crutches of someone who merely
*thinks* they've got a broken leg.
--
Kevin Anthoney
kanthoney[a]dsl.pipex.com
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| User: "Alex" |
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| Title: Re: how do you convince a theist that god if fake? |
15 May 2004 09:27:37 AM |
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On Fri, 14 May 2004 20:51:56 +0100, Kevin Anthoney
<kevin_anthoney@hotmail.com> wrote:
No, but it might be fun to kick away the crutches of someone who merely
*thinks* they've got a broken leg.
The problem is, that sometimes they've neglected that leg for so long,
that they'll end up falling flat on their face without those crutches.
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| User: "Kevin Anthoney" |
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| Title: Re: how do you convince a theist that god if fake? |
15 May 2004 09:36:32 AM |
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Alex wrote:
On Fri, 14 May 2004 20:51:56 +0100, Kevin Anthoney
<kevin_anthoney@hotmail.com> wrote:
No, but it might be fun to kick away the crutches of someone who merely
*thinks* they've got a broken leg.
The problem is, that sometimes they've neglected that leg for so long,
that they'll end up falling flat on their face without those crutches.
Like I said, fun.
<Evil Grin!>
--
Kevin Anthoney
kanthoney[a]dsl.pipex.com
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| User: "Alex" |
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| Title: Re: how do you convince a theist that god if fake? |
15 May 2004 09:40:09 AM |
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On 14 May 2004 08:30:06 -0700, (Va Fungool)
wrote:
First off, I respect people's right to believe what they want, and I
am not calling theists stupid, but how the hell can I convince someone
that god is fake?
If they're true believers, then rationality doesn't enter into the
picture. They may be smart in dealing with the rest of their lives
(maybe a medical doctor or a lawyer) but when religion enters the
picture something in their heads shuts off. They *can't* logically
examine their beliefs, all while assuming that they have examined them
(and they happen to be the right ones to believe in).
It all boils down to feelings. So, the best you can do is point out
injustices in the world in a tone that says, "I just want to know why
these things happen if your God exists because I would like to believe
too." Never press beyond a second question (or even the first if the
person you asked appears disturbed).
E.g. "So God is everywhere then? [retorical question] So He was in
that room where the pedophile molested that little girl, dozens of
times, over two weeks?"
If the answer you get is a calm one then you can ask one more question
(such as, "Why wouldn't God help the little girl?") but if the person
already appears to be angry, upset, or even flustered - stop, you've
already done the best you can hope for.
The trick is not to be labelled "tool of the Devil" in the believer's
mind so you can keep bringing up these doubts. The label you should
strive for, by the way, is "confused searcher for God".
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| User: "Spooked " |
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| Title: Re: how do you convince a theist that god if fake? |
14 May 2004 05:24:41 PM |
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On 14 May 2004 08:30:06 -0700, (Va Fungool)
wrote:
First off, I respect people's right to believe what they want, and I
am not calling theists stupid, but how the hell can I convince someone
that god is fake?
I mean, it is painfully obvious to me that god and the bible is a
total myth and that we are nothing more than a highly evolved
insignificant animal on an insignificant plant orbiting an
insignificant medium sized star, lost in a spiral arm of a medium
sized galaxy (one of billions), in an unimaginably vast universe.
How can people actually think than an all powerful, all knowing, all
loving being actually created us...? I mean come one, that is total
friggin lunacy!!!!!
Trying to have a rational conversation with a seemingly intelligent
theist about the topic of god is like talking to a two year old about
Santa...these people are, in many cases, much smarter than I, but they
throw all common sense out the window when it comes to belief in a
mythical being, without one shred of evidence to support his
existence...How sad and pathetic.
Anyway, has anyone ever convinced a religious folk that god is bunk,
and if so, how did you do it?
So strange...I smell the scent of a troll...
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| User: "LP" |
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| Title: Re: how do you convince a theist that god if fake? |
14 May 2004 02:31:59 PM |
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On 14 May 2004 08:30:06 -0700, (Va Fungool)
wrote:
First off, I respect people's right to believe what they want, and I
am not calling theists stupid, but how the hell can I convince someone
that god is fake?
I mean, it is painfully obvious to me that god and the bible is a
total myth and that we are nothing more than a highly evolved
insignificant animal on an insignificant plant orbiting an
insignificant medium sized star, lost in a spiral arm of a medium
sized galaxy (one of billions), in an unimaginably vast universe.
How can people actually think than an all powerful, all knowing, all
loving being actually created us...? I mean come one, that is total
friggin lunacy!!!!!
Trying to have a rational conversation with a seemingly intelligent
theist about the topic of god is like talking to a two year old about
Santa...these people are, in many cases, much smarter than I, but they
throw all common sense out the window when it comes to belief in a
mythical being, without one shred of evidence to support his
existence...How sad and pathetic.
Anyway, has anyone ever convinced a religious folk that god is bunk,
and if so, how did you do it?
Teach them how to think critically.
There are many books and articles on this subject.
I believe it is better not to mention the irrational beliefs that are
so dear to them and central to their personality. Just show them how
gullibility can lead people to believe a huge assortment of strange
things, and how learning to think critically can help one sort out the
trash. Give them examples of some irrational beliefs that they may be
more willing to reject, and then help them see why they are
irrational.
The best book I have found that teaches critical thinking is.
How to Think About Weird Things: Critical Thinking for a New Age
by Theodore, Jr. Schick, Lewis Vaughn
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0767420489
Two other good books to check out are:
Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and
Other Confusions of Our Time
by Michael Shermer (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805070893
The Demon-Haunted World
by Carl Sagan (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345409469
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: how do you convince a theist that god if fake? |
15 May 2004 08:04:55 AM |
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On 14 May 2004 08:30:06 -0700, (Va Fungool) wrote:
First off, I respect people's right to believe what they want, and I
am not calling theists stupid, but how the hell can I convince someone
that god is fake?
He's not.
I mean, it is painfully obvious to me that god and the bible is a
total myth
It is wonderfully obvious to me that God and the bible is total truth.
Anyway, has anyone ever convinced a religious folk that god is bunk,
and if so, how did you do it?
Why would anyone believe him when all evidence demands the existence of almighty God.
duke
*****
John 6
53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless
you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his
blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my
flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I
will raise him up at the last day.
*****
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| User: "Alex" |
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| Title: Re: how do you convince a theist that god if fake? |
15 May 2004 09:43:05 AM |
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On Sat, 15 May 2004 08:04:55 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
Anyway, has anyone ever convinced a religious folk that god is bunk,
and if so, how did you do it?
Why would anyone believe him when all evidence demands the existence of almighty God.
Obviously this question wasn't directed toward you but you answered
anyway. You must really want to turn people away from your God that
you would do something so rude and inconsiderate.
Or, maybe you can explain how your constant rude interruptions in
alt.atheism help more people come to your particular flavour of deity.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: how do you convince a theist that god if fake? |
15 May 2004 05:56:44 PM |
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On Sat, 15 May 2004 10:43:05 -0400, Alex <a@b.c> wrote:
Anyway, has anyone ever convinced a religious folk that god is bunk,
and if so, how did you do it?
Why would anyone believe him when all evidence demands the existence of almighty God.
Obviously this question wasn't directed toward you but you answered
anyway. You must really want to turn people away from your God that
you would do something so rude and inconsiderate.
Sorry, bubba, but when you post to the public, the public answers.
Or, maybe you can explain how your constant rude interruptions in
alt.atheism help more people come to your particular flavour of deity.
If you want privacy, send an email.
duke
*****
John 6
53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless
you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his
blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my
flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I
will raise him up at the last day.
*****
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| User: "Alex" |
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| Title: Re: how do you convince a theist that god if fake? |
15 May 2004 11:23:36 PM |
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On Sat, 15 May 2004 17:56:44 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
Or, maybe you can explain how your constant rude interruptions in
alt.atheism help more people come to your particular flavour of deity.
If you want privacy, send an email.
I didn't ask for privacy, I asked you a question.
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| User: "dummie" |
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| Title: Re: how do you convince a theist that god if fake? |
16 May 2004 12:12:04 AM |
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duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
Why would anyone believe him when all evidence demands the existence of almighty God.
Name one chunk of evidence that demands the existence of God.
I knew you were bluffing.
-------------
-Mike#1375
BAAWA Knight!
-------------
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| User: "dgillesp" |
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| Title: Re: how do you convince a theist that god if fake? |
14 May 2004 12:51:37 PM |
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Va Fungool wrote:
First off, I respect people's right to believe what they want, and I
am not calling theists stupid, but how the hell can I convince someone
that god is fake?
Which version of this faked deity do you mean? The God witnessed to in
the Bible has many times been remade into the likeness of both his
friends (theists) and his foes (atheists). Their description often
reveals more about themselves than it does about God.
I mean, it is painfully obvious to me that god and the bible is a
total myth
I don't think you mean to say the Bible is a myth. It really exists as
a hardback or soft cover volume, commonly acknowledged to be the world's
best seller.
and that we are nothing more than a highly evolved
insignificant animal
And that's your bottom line definition of what it means to exist - an
animal pure and simple. Well, it does appear to be a 'dog eat dog'
world. More power then to the big dog!!!
on an insignificant plant orbiting an
insignificant medium sized star, lost in a spiral arm of a medium
sized galaxy (one of billions), in an unimaginably vast universe.
You realize that you have at least as many cells in your body as there
are stars in the universe--maybe even more. In fact, you are a
microcosm of the universe, and so far as we know for sure, man is the
only being in this universe that is consciously aware of it's
existence. Oh well, sometimes the most precious gifts come in very
small packages.
How can people actually think than an all powerful, all knowing, all
loving being actually created us...?
Perhaps because their concept corresponds to reality--always a
possibility, you know. No one has been able to prove that He does not
exist.
I mean come one, that is total
friggin lunacy!!!!!
How intelligent of you to dismiss so flippantly the faith of billions of
"seemingly intelligent" as well as simpleminded human beings.
Trying to have a rational conversation with a seemingly intelligent
theist about the topic of god is like talking to a two year old about
Santa...
That will always be the case when you narrow down the scope of reality
only to what can be seen under a microscope or through a telescope.
Though Santa is highly unscientific and nonrational, he represents
something very important to the human condition. We would be the poorer
without him.
these people are, in many cases, much smarter than I, but they
throw all common sense out the window when it comes to belief in a
mythical being, without one shred of evidence to support his
existence...How sad and pathetic.
How one reads the evidence is what makes the important difference. If
you approach it with the preassumption that nothing exists beyond what
science and reason can put into a box, the evidence for God is
automatically excluded. As for cause and effect, effects are always the
result of more than a single cause. Human nature being what it is, we
want to keep it simple: either "Goddidit" or Chancedidit."
Anyway, has anyone ever convinced a religious folk that god is bunk,
and if so, how did you do it?
Henry Ford also said, "History is bunk." How do you convince people
that without history we lose our sense of identity and become
amnesiacs? The evidence points to the fact that what's happening right
now is the only reality that actually matters.
methodios
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| User: "Dixit" |
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| Title: Re: how do you convince a theist that god if fake? |
14 May 2004 05:17:04 PM |
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dgillesp wrote:
Va Fungool wrote:
How can people actually think than an all powerful, all knowing, all
loving being actually created us...?
Perhaps because their concept corresponds to reality--always a
possibility, you know. No one has been able to prove that He does not
exist.
Argument from ignorance.
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| User: "Virgil" |
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| Title: Re: how do you convince a theist that god if fake? |
15 May 2004 12:31:46 AM |
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In article <Azbpc.3172$qA.305038@attbi_s51>, Dixit, AKA Septic Capon,
the Simple Pimple, <dixit@nospam.net>
wrote:
dgillesp wrote:
Va Fungool wrote:
How can people actually think than an all powerful, all knowing, all
loving being actually created us...?
Perhaps because their concept corresponds to reality--always a
possibility, you know. No one has been able to prove that He does not
exist.
Argument from ignorance.
It is not an argument from ignorance to say that what has not been
proved impossible has not been proved impossible.
Only someone as ignorant as Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, would argue
so.
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| User: "Dixit" |
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| Title: Re: how do you convince a theist that god if fake? |
15 May 2004 01:24:29 AM |
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Virgil wrote:
In article <Azbpc.3172$qA.305038@attbi_s51>, Dixit, AKA Septic Capon,
the Simple Pimple, <dixit@nospam.net>
wrote:
dgillesp wrote:
Va Fungool wrote:
How can people actually think than an all powerful, all knowing, all
loving being actually created us...?
Perhaps because their concept corresponds to reality--always a
possibility, you know. No one has been able to prove that He does not
exist.
Argument from ignorance.
It is not an argument from ignorance to say that what has not been
proved impossible has not been proved impossible.
So there might be a God because nobody has proved that is impossible?
That's definitely argument from ignorance.
Anyway, you are lying, Russell has shown that there cannot be any such
thing as the hypothetical God, the hypothetical first cause:
"The argument that there must be a first cause is one that cannot have
any validity. If anything must have a cause, then God must have a cause.
If there can be anything without a cause, it may just as well be the
world [universe, everything that exists] as God." -- Lord Bertrand
Russell (1872 - 1970)
It's a very simple problem for anybody who still believes there might be
one anyway. All they have to do is come up with an argument for God, the
hypothetical first cause/creator of the universe, that does not run into
this fatal problem inherent in the very idea of it, which Russell points
out.
<cue the chirping crickets>
1957 Bertrand Russell: "no reason to suppose that the world had a
beginning at all"
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| User: "Virgil" |
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| Title: Re: how do you convince a theist that god if fake? |
15 May 2004 02:49:33 AM |
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In article <xIipc.14205$6f5.1229894@attbi_s54>,
Dixit, AKA Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, <dixit@nospam.net> wrote:
Virgil wrote:
In article <Azbpc.3172$qA.305038@attbi_s51>, Dixit, AKA Septic Capon,
the Simple Pimple, <dixit@nospam.net>
wrote:
dgillesp wrote:
Va Fungool wrote:
How can people actually think than an all powerful, all knowing, all
loving being actually created us...?
Perhaps because their concept corresponds to reality--always a
possibility, you know. No one has been able to prove that He does not
exist.
Argument from ignorance.
It is not an argument from ignorance to say that what has not been
proved impossible has not been proved impossible.
So there might be a God because nobody has proved that is impossible?
That's definitely argument from ignorance.
Wrong! To argue that there MUST be a God because nobody has proved it
impossible would be an argument from ignorance. But no one here has made
that argument.
To argue that , as far as we know, there MIGHT be a God because we do
not know that there cannot be one is quite a proper agument. It is
merely saying that because we do not know that God is impossible we do
not know that God is impossible. This is a tautology, and only fools
like Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, try to claim that tautologies are
fallacies.
Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, is again de4monstrating his inability
to distinguish between "MIGHT" and "MUST".
Rusell only argues that there need not be one, not that there cannot be
one.
"The argument that there must be a first cause is one that cannot have
any validity. If anything must have a cause, then God must have a cause.
If there can be anything without a cause, it may just as well be the
world [universe, everything that exists] as God." -- Lord Bertrand
Russell (1872 - 1970)
1957 Bertrand Russell: "no reason to suppose that the world had a
beginning at all"
Nor any reason to suppose it didn't. And that uncertainty is all that I
claim, whereas Septic Capon, the Simple Pimple, claims certainty with
neither proof nor evidence.
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| User: "Bucephalis" |
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| Title: Re: how do you convince a theist that god if fake? |
15 May 2004 05:33:30 PM |
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The problem with proving the existence of God is that first you have to
define what he is. What characteristics are you referring to in your
proof. The effort to do this has, over the millenia, caused thousands
of writers to write millions of books, and they are still doing it.
It's kind of like making a million dollars. Easy, just start with
$900,000. An old piece of advice I heard says you can't argue religion
and science. Proving God requires faith. Rationally thinking, more than
likely you won't find anyone who doesn't believe trying to prove the
existence of God.
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