How Pornography Destroys Lives

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"words of truth"
Date:	21 Oct 2005 07:29:55 PM
Object:	How Pornography Destroys Lives

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/177/story_17736_1.html
How Porn Destroys Lives
Pamela Paul was shocked by what she found while researching how
pornography is changing our culture: everyone is doing it.
Interview by Rebecca Phillips
"Porn is for everyone," says author Pamela Paul, whose new book,
"Pornified," details how the widespread use of pornography is changing
American culture and relationships. Paul expected to find pornography
use mainly in the realm of "losers who couldn't get a date" when she
started researching the book. Instead, she found that it was
mainstream, bridging religious, ethnic, educational, and socio-economic
barriers. She was even more surprised, however, by how often
pornography use ruins relationships, increases sexual dysfunction, and
changes what men expect from women. Paul spoke with Beliefnet recently
about pornography addiction, how the internet has changed porn
consumption, and what secular culture can learn from the way religious
groups confront pornography use. Paul will also lead a three-week
dialogue group to answer questions and discuss with readers how
pornography has transformed their own lives.
What surprised you the most about the use of pornography in America?
Honestly, I didn't think pornography was that huge an issue before I
wrote this book. I started writing this book before the Janet Jackson
fiasco, before the Paris Hilton tapes. I knew there was a lot of
pornography out there, but I didn't think it was anything that affected
my life or the lives of anyone I knew. The question I wanted to ask
was, "With all this pornography out there, does it have any effect?"
I was absolutely shocked by what I found. I talked to people whose
lives were really destroyed by pornography. Even the people who didn't
bottom out--total porn addiction, marriages breaking up, people losing
their jobs, which did happen--even the people who didn't go to that
extreme were profoundly affected by porn. Sometimes they realized they
were, but often they didn't realize the effects pornography had on
them.
Can you share an example?
There was one woman who said to me, "I'm totally fine with porn. I
think it's fun, I look at it, my boyfriend looks at it." Half an hour
into our phone conversation, she tells me that her boyfriend and she do
not have good sex, that this is the first time she's had a bad sexual
relationship, that he looks at porn all the time, and that now she's
considering getting breast implants. This is someone who seemed very
bright and cheery about pornography, but if you scratch beneath the
surface, you find out that's not at all the case.
To answer your original question, given that everything was shocking to
me--and I don't consider myself a naive person--I was shocked by the
fact that so many men and women say that porn can help people sexually,
that it helps them open up, that it's fun and harmless, but at the same
time men who were fans of pornography were reporting that their sex
lives were damaged. They had trouble maintaining erections, they were
having trouble having intercourse with their wives, they simply
couldn't enjoy real human sexuality any more. These men had programmed
themselves to only sexually cue to computerized, commercialized
pornography.
You mentioned that not everyone takes pornography to the extreme, but
your book catalogs the stories of many people who do. How do people go
from being a casual consumer of an occasional pornographic magazine to
someone who is addicted?
I wrote a chapter about how pornography affects men and I went through
the steps for how it affects casual users: it desensitizes them, then
it escalates into more extreme and excessive interest. And then I did a
chapter on men who had completely bottomed out and were addicted to
pornography. And I went through the same steps. It's scary--the casual
user was showing the same effects, just to a lesser degree than the
addict was.
I expected pornography fans to be very defensive about their use of
pornography, and to a certain extent they were, but they were often
happy about it and proud of it. But when I asked them, "Do you think
you could ever become addicted to porn?" two-thirds of the men who
didn't think they were addicted said, "Yeah, I could see that
happening." Before the internet, I don't think we would have had this
problem.
So the internet has really changed things?
There's a chicken-and-egg conundrum of asking if the internet created
this problem or if porn helped spread use of the internet. It's
probably a combination. We have internet pornography and satellite
television pornography and DVD pornography, and it's all over the place
and always available. Fifteen years ago, someone might have picked up
Playboy now and then, might have rented a videocassette--these people
have now become daily users. The casual user has gone from someone who
looks at a magazine on occasion or rents a video when he travels for
business to someone who now spends half an hour or 45 minutes online a
day.
Is there a profile of a typical pornography consumer?
There isn't, and that's what is scary, too. It was naive on my part,
but I thought, "It's no one that I know, it's no one who's really
well-educated or self-aware or who has been in a serious relationship.
Porn is for losers who can't get a date." And I thought porn was for
kids--a phase that all teenagers go through. In fact, porn is for
everyone; everyone is using pornography. I talked to people who were
Ivy League-educated, people who were engaged, people who were married,
people who were divorced, people who were parents of young children. It
went across all socio-economic, all racial, all ethnic, and all
religious lines. I spoke with men who consider themselves to be devout
church-goers and one man who taught at a Jewish seminary. I talked to a
monk. I talked to people of all kinds of backgrounds and beliefs, and
they all used pornography.
Let's look at religious people who use pornography. Your statistic
about the number of evangelical men who use pornography is surprisingly
large. What is going on there?
I think they're a lot more honest about it. There was a 2000 survey
that Focus on the Family did that found that 18% of people who call
themselves born-again Christians admit to looking at porn sites. A
chaplain named Henry Rogers who studies pornography estimates that 40
to 70% of evangelical men say they struggle with pornography. That
might not mean that they look at it, but it might mean that they
struggle to avoid looking at it.
By and large, religious people, particularly Christian people, are
aware that this is an issue. They've addressed it much more than
secular culture has. That's something that should change. The truth is
it doesn't matter if you're religious or if you're secular--the chances
that you'll look at porn are probably equal.
What can secular culture learn from the way the religious culture deals
with pornography?
The secular world can learn from religious groups that it needs to be
discussed. Everyone talks about how there's so much porn out there, but
do we talk about it being a problem? Do we talk about how it affects
people? That's something that in many ways, religious communities have
been more proactive about.
I was surprised by how many of the women in your book seem to just
accept pornography as part of their relationships.
I think a lot of women feel cowed by the attitude of a lot of men who
use pornography--that it's a "guy thing" that they wouldn't understand.
There's also the idea that being open and cool about porn is seen as
sexy and hip. Those messages are powerful and pervasive.
What does it take for someone to realize that they're addicted to
pornography?
I spoke with probably two-dozen people who were addicted to
pornography. They talk about the denial going on for years. I spoke to
men who said they weren't addicted but who spent hours online, staying
up till one or two o'clock in the morning looking at porn. It's like
alcoholism in a lot of ways--sometimes it takes a disaster to realize
it, other times something triggers a reaction akin to shame or guilt.
With addicts, often, pornography crosses over to their real lives. They
may start going to prostitutes, hanging out in strip clubs, meeting
women from sex chat rooms. There were quite a few who found that their
interest in adult pornography trickled down to an interest in looking
at teens, and soon they found they were looking at child pornography.
For several of the men I talked to, that was a trigger for recovery.
What are some of the recovery methods that people go through? Is there
anything like Pornography Anonymous?
Yes. There are a number of 12-step groups, like Sexual Addicts
Anonymous. They're not for pornography specifically, but they all
essentially deal with pornography, or what comes afterward, since
pornography will often trickle into real life. And there are a number
of religious organizations. There's Pure Life Ministries, and other
churches that have created facilities for treatment for pornography
addiction.
You point out that porn has become a free-speech issue, and liberals
don't focus on the issues involving degradation of women.
If pornography involved blacks or Jews or any other minority or group,
I think that liberals would respond with outrage. But it's women and
there's been no response. This may be because the anti-pornography
argument has been adopted by groups that come across as reactionary or
unrealistic. Traditionally, there were two groups that were
anti-pornography. One was the religious right, who also said they were
anti-sex education and anti-homosexuality, so liberals didn't want to
associate with them. On the other hand, feminists who were
anti-pornography took a legal approach, and an approach that many other
women thought was anti-men. When those two groups aligned to fight
pornography in the 1980s, a lot of liberals were turned off.
At the same time, the pro-pornography movement had a very strong
argument that appealed to liberals. It was about the First Amendment,
civil rights, human rights. It's ironic, because they may be
championing the rights of people to look at pornography, but they're
not championing the rights of women who are in pornography or the
rights of people who don't want pornography shoved in their face
everywhere they turn.
Something like the movie "The People vs. Larry Flynt" would encourage
any liberal to side with Larry Flynt. It hugely distorts the issue. We
have spent so much time protecting the rights of people to look at
pornography. But we have spent no time protecting the right of people
to speak out against pornography.
This is big business. They have lawyers, they have advertising, they
have lobbyists. Pornography is a product, and there are billions of
dollars at stake, and they have done an effective job at creating a
message that says, "If you are open-minded, if you're a patriot, if you
believe in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, then you've got to
defend pornography whether you like it or not."
You write about how pornography doesn't have the same restrictions that
much of other media have, such as FCC regulations. Why haven't more
restrictions been put into place?
First of all, it's very important to remember that pornography is a
kind of media and it's also a product--and both of those things are
regulated. Media are regulated all the time--the FCC regulates media,
there are certain things that can't be shown to children, certain
movies that can only be shown at certain times. The only media that's
not regulated is pornography. Pornography is also a product, like
cigarettes are a product, alcohol is a product, aspirin is a product.
All of these things have zoning regulations, laws about how you can
sell it, who you can sell it to. But when it comes to pornography, we
say, "No, no, no, you've got to have unregulated pornography, otherwise
you're interfering." The idea that pornography shouldn't be regulated
is ludicrous.
There have been a lot of convoluted decisions on pornography by the
Supreme Court. Some of the [1972 case] Miller vs. California
definitions of porn still stand--they define pornography as something
that has no cultural or aesthetic or social value, and say that kind of
material should be regulated by a local community. But what is a local
community in the age of the internet? It becomes very difficult to
enforce. But to be honest, I don't think we've made a big effort.
Do you hope your book will bring pornography more into public
discussion?
People need to know that pornography is not harmless entertainment.
They need to hear that from the people who know it best--the people who
use pornography. Cigarettes were once extolled by doctors and
glamorized in the movies. Cigarette smoking was something to aspire to.
We've gotten to that point with pornography. But once people know that
cigarette smoking isn't very good for you, the consumption started to
decline. My hope would be that that would happen with pornography.
.

User: "Andrew W"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	23 Oct 2005 04:25:27 AM

"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1129940995.353583.226220@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/177/story_17736_1.html

How Porn Destroys Lives

Can you share an example?

There was one woman who said to me, "I'm totally fine with porn. I
think it's fun, I look at it, my boyfriend looks at it." Half an hour
into our phone conversation,
she tells me that her boyfriend and she do
not have good sex, that this is the first time she's had a bad sexual
relationship,

Maybe this is the first time she's had an incompatible partner.
If a relationship goes bad just because of one thing then its not a very
good relationship in the first place.

that he looks at porn all the time, and that now she's
considering getting breast implants.

If this happens then each person definitely needs to find a better and more
compatible partner. One who is genuinely interested in the other as a person
and not just as an object.
Pornography isn't going to be the only cause of problems here by a long shot
if any.

This is someone who seemed very
bright and cheery about pornography, but if you scratch beneath the
surface, you find out that's not at all the case.

To answer your original question, given that everything was shocking to
me--and I don't consider myself a naive person--I was shocked by the
fact that so many men and women say that porn can help people sexually,
that it helps them open up, that it's fun and harmless, but at the same
time men who were fans of pornography were reporting that their sex
lives were damaged. They had trouble maintaining erections, they were
having trouble having intercourse with their wives, they simply
couldn't enjoy real human sexuality any more. These men had programmed
themselves to only sexually cue to computerized, commercialized
pornography.

If anything, the problem here is that pornography has merely taken the
mystery out of sex. It hasn't actually destroyed anything.
But a relationship that has to rely entirely on sex and mystery to keep it
running is not much of a relationship.

People need to know that pornography is not harmless entertainment.

How is it harmful? Who does it hurt?
(The only thing I would definitely speak out against is paying for porn
because that stimulates the porn trade, especially child porn).
It can actually relieve sexual tension.
And beholding the beauty of the human body can be uplifting.
It can however be addictive, but then so can love and sex and many other
things.
Even simple things like coffee can be addictive. In fact nearly everyone IS
addicted to coffee (except me) and no one says anything about that despite
it having little or no nutritional value, in fact being bad for you.
--
Andrew W.
Beware of invisible entities that coerce you into a life of worship and
sacrifice.
Beware of any being who offers you a gift in the form of death and
suffering.
Beware of any religion that makes free-mindedness a crime.
Free-mindedness is foolishness to those whose brains are perishing.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.

User: "Hyerdahl"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	23 Oct 2005 07:17:31 AM

Andrew W wrote:

(edit)
How is it harmful? Who does it hurt?

Porn is just one aspect of the ideology that women should be sexually
available to men. Likely as not, it has inspired rapes and torture of
women. However, many things can do that, not just porn. That being
the case, it makes sense to me that women don't like porn and consider
it harmful. As to who it harms, by the number of marriages failing in
the world today, it is just one more straw breaking the camel's back.
And, it is my personal opinion that the more one engage in any kind of
extreme sex on a regular basis, the less likely it is that person will
find sexual satisfaction in their real life, placing them more and more
in some kind of fantasy world. That simply isn't a sign of good mental
health.

(The only thing I would definitely speak out against is paying for porn
because that stimulates the porn trade, especially child porn).

Yup. If one keeps pushing the envelope, it takes more to satisfy. In
fact, that's what Ted Bundy (the serial killer) said. He said he
started with porn, and moved on to torturing small animals until his
orgasms could not be accomplished without torturing and killing.

It can actually relieve sexual tension.

Yes, that's true, but it's probably not as healthy a way as being able
to relate to another human being on a sexual or intimate basis. And, a
person who has a well-developed imagination may not need to invest in
porn, but rather to invest in himself or his intimate partner.

And beholding the beauty of the human body can be uplifting.

There is NOTHING uplifting about pornography; it's very purpose is so
that men will pay money to a commercial publisher for the very purpose
of jacking off.
I think to confuse that with art is feeble. When was the last time you
jacked off observing a nude at the Met? :-)

It can however be addictive, but then so can love and sex and many other
things.

Comparing jacking off to love makes me feel a bit sad for you, but
whatever.
When some of the world's greatest philosophers (like Jesus) instructed
us to "love one another", I don't think they had porn in mind. :-)

Even simple things like coffee can be addictive.

I am addicted to good coffee. This morning, I'm enjoying a
Sumatra-hazelnut blend. However, my coffee addiction doesn't cut me
off from my friends and loved ones the way a porn addiction can. And
my friends don't think less of me because of it. In fact, one of them
drops by each morning (after the coffee brews and before we walk and
swim).
In fact nearly everyone IS addicted to coffee (except me) and no one
says anything about that despite it having little or no nutritional
value, in fact being bad for you.
How many people know you're a pornmeister? :-) I'm going to suggest
here that people who want intimate relationships defeat that very
purpose by hooking up with pornmeisters. It's simply counter
productive. And if you're a married man, and your wife thinks of your
addiction as leaving the marriage for outside sexual stimulation,
well...that leaves the door open for her as well. And let's face it,
women are not all that visual.

User: "Andrew W"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	23 Oct 2005 07:52:21 AM

"Hyerdahl" <Hyerdahl3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1130069851.813953.76140@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Andrew W wrote:

(edit)

How is it harmful? Who does it hurt?

Porn is just one aspect of the ideology that women should be sexually
available to men.

Hmm. I think its just about admiring the beauty of the human body.
Its erotic to see something that's normally covered up.
If people were to stop covering themselves up all the time then there would
be no need for pornography.
There are no problems like this over in Sweden.

Likely as not, it has inspired rapes and torture of
women.

A person who has so little compassion and empathy for another's pain and
violation will rape someone sooner or later no matter what. The main reason
for rape I think is poor education and bad rearing. The only thing kids
learn nowadays is how to memorise facts and figures to get a job, but
they're not taught crucial people skills or compassion/empathy at all. They
end up having to learn that from their friends.

However, many things can do that, not just porn. That being
the case, it makes sense to me that women don't like porn and consider
it harmful. As to who it harms, by the number of marriages failing in
the world today, it is just one more straw breaking the camel's back.

I think marriage is just going out of fashion. The world is speeding up.
People need to move around and experience different things/people. The
marriage contract is becoming a horrible constriction in this day and age.

And, it is my personal opinion that the more one engage in any kind of
extreme sex on a regular basis, the less likely it is that person will
find sexual satisfaction in their real life, placing them more and more
in some kind of fantasy world. That simply isn't a sign of good mental
health.

(The only thing I would definitely speak out against is paying for porn
because that stimulates the porn trade, especially child porn).

He sounds like he seriously needed to get a life.
--
Andrew W.
Beware of invisible entities that coerce you into a life of worship and
sacrifice.
Beware of any being who offers you a gift in the form of death and
suffering.
Beware of any religion that makes free-mindedness a crime.
Free-mindedness is foolishness to those whose brains are perishing.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.

User: "Hyerdahl"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	23 Oct 2005 11:42:19 AM

Andrew W wrote:

"Hyerdahl" <Hyerdahl3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1130069851.813953.76140@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Andrew W wrote:

(edit)

How is it harmful? Who does it hurt?

Porn is just one aspect of the ideology that women should be sexually
available to men.

Hmm. I think its just about admiring the beauty of the human body.

I don't believe you. It's about jacking off.

Its erotic to see something that's normally covered up.
If people were to stop covering themselves up all the time then there would
be no need for pornography.

Again, not true. It isn't the nudity in porn per se, that gets men
off; it's the sexual availability of women. If you've ever been to a
nude beach you'll soon discover that nudity is just nudity.

There are no problems like this over in Sweden.

Sure there are, but Swedes don't connect nudity with sex as much as
Americans do. :-)

Likely as not, it has inspired rapes and torture of
women.

A person who has so little compassion and empathy for another's pain and
violation will rape someone sooner or later no matter what.

Creating a market of women is what subjects women to being marketed and
that makes rapists feel more inclined to rape, as a factor in rape.
There are correlations between rape and porn. That is more than enough
of a reason for women to stay clear of pornmeisters.
The main reason > for rape I think is poor education and bad rearing.
The main reason for rape is CONTROL, coupled with anger by men who
think women should be sexually available to them, but are not. Porn
just adds fuel to the fire, which is more than enough of a reason for
women to distance themselves from pornmeisters.
The only thing kids learn nowadays is how to memorise facts and
figures to get a job, but they're not taught crucial people skills or
compassion/empathy at all.
Are you blaming society for the behavior of rapists?
They end up having to learn that from their friends.
And, girls also learn things from their friends ...like how to carry
guns. :-)

I think marriage is just going out of fashion.

And, that is one of the things that make it less than fashionable.
Women don't seem to want unfair options where men get to have
stimulation outside of marriage.
The world is speeding up.
And, now women have the same sexual rights men have.

People need to move around and experience different things/people. The
marriage contract is becoming a horrible constriction in this day and age.

I tend to agree there.

(The only thing I would definitely speak out against is paying for porn
because that stimulates the porn trade, especially child porn).

He sounds like he seriously needed to get a life.

Too late for that.

User: "Eris"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	23 Oct 2005 12:22:17 PM

On 23 Oct 2005 09:42:19 -0700, "Hyerdahl" <Hyerdahl3@aol.com> wrote:

Andrew W wrote:

"Hyerdahl" <Hyerdahl3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1130069851.813953.76140@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Andrew W wrote:

(edit)

How is it harmful? Who does it hurt?

Porn is just one aspect of the ideology that women should be sexually
available to men.

Hmm. I think its just about admiring the beauty of the human body.

I don't believe you. It's about jacking off.

Its erotic to see something that's normally covered up.
If people were to stop covering themselves up all the time then there would
be no need for pornography.

Again, not true. It isn't the nudity in porn per se, that gets men
off; it's the sexual availability of women. If you've ever been to a
nude beach you'll soon discover that nudity is just nudity.

There are no problems like this over in Sweden.

Sure there are, but Swedes don't connect nudity with sex as much as
Americans do. :-)

Likely as not, it has inspired rapes and torture of
women.

A person who has so little compassion and empathy for another's pain and
violation will rape someone sooner or later no matter what.

The studies they did showed that rapist didn't look at porn, if they
wanted to be sexually aroused they would get an actual woman.
Porn doesn't scream or beg.
F.O.A.D

The only thing kids learn nowadays is how to memorise facts and
figures to get a job, but they're not taught crucial people skills or
compassion/empathy at all.

Are you blaming society for the behavior of rapists?

They end up having to learn that from their friends.

And, girls also learn things from their friends ...like how to carry
guns. :-)

I think marriage is just going out of fashion.

And, that is one of the things that make it less than fashionable.
Women don't seem to want unfair options where men get to have
stimulation outside of marriage.

The world is speeding up.

And, now women have the same sexual rights men have.

People need to move around and experience different things/people. The
marriage contract is becoming a horrible constriction in this day and age.

I tend to agree there.

(The only thing I would definitely speak out against is paying for porn
because that stimulates the porn trade, especially child porn).

He sounds like he seriously needed to get a life.

Too late for that.

User: "thomas p"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	23 Oct 2005 01:39:35 PM

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 22:52:21 +1000, "Andrew W"
<removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:

"Hyerdahl" <Hyerdahl3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1130069851.813953.76140@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Andrew W wrote:

(edit)

snip

He sounds like he seriously needed to get a life.

Also I doubt that he would have an objective or view of himself or be
trusted to express it honestly.
Porn is very big business, which indicates a huge number of customers;
yet there is not a huge number of serial killers running around.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)

.

User: "wbarwell"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	23 Oct 2005 03:42:40 PM

thomas p wrote:

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 22:52:21 +1000, "Andrew W"
<removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:

"Hyerdahl" <Hyerdahl3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1130069851.813953.76140@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Andrew W wrote:

(edit)

snip

Yup. If one keeps pushing the envelope, it takes more to satisfy.
In
fact, that's what Ted Bundy (the serial killer) said. He said he
started with porn, and moved on to torturing small animals until
his orgasms could not be accomplished without torturing and
killing.

He sounds like he seriously needed to get a life.

Also I doubt that he would have an objective or view of himself or
be trusted to express it honestly.

Porn is very big business, which indicates a huge number of
customers; yet there is not a huge number of serial killers running
around.

In Japan, late in the evening, softporn is common on TV.
As are rather violent movies that would not be shown
on American TV stations.
Yet despite that, crime in Japan is not notably
prevalent, especially in comparison to the US.
--
The official spokesman of the Foxes said
today that investigation into what happened
to the henhouse may be needed.
Cheerful Charlie
.

User: "Ike"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	22 Oct 2005 05:27:02 AM

"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1129940995.353583.226220@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

The problem isn't porn. Porn is a symptomof a problem. Everything you might
call porn isn't porn anyway. Some kinds of porn are art. Misuse of the
depiction of erotic acts is like misuse of food or misuse of coffee.
people do this because they are like prisoners. They either don't have other
options or don't see options. Ask yourself what is the purpose of attacking
the use of porn? If you don't know of a feedback loop that will get people
to stop using it, and do other things that are more rewarding and at the
same time economically induce less porn usage, in the public, you are just
basically promoting your own fame using a troubling issue to get attention
fo yourself .
But I see you are trying to act on the pubic interest.
.

User: "Hyerdahl"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	22 Oct 2005 07:18:11 AM

Ike wrote:

"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1129940995.353583.226220@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/177/story_17736_1.html

How Porn Destroys Lives
(edit)

The problem isn't porn. Porn is a symptomof a problem. Everything you might
call porn isn't porn anyway. Some kinds of porn are art.

Porn is created out of the desire to sell tittilation. Most porn is
commercial and it's all about money, not art. However, I have no
desire to censor or even to limit porn itself, if there are willing
participants. In fact, it might be a good idea to put more variety of
stuff out there, like the rape and torture of men. Some women might
like to see that, and let's face it, fellas, it's all done willingly,
right? Heck, we could even market the rape and torture of a particular
group of men, i.e. rich white men, men of the Supreme Court, all the
President's men, etc. I'm sure you'd have no objection, considering
the films out there about the rape and torture of women, eh?
Misuse of the > depiction of erotic acts is like misuse of food or
misuse of coffee. people do this because they are like prisoners. They
either don't have other > options or don't see options. Ask yourself
what is the purpose of attacking the use of porn?
There is where we part company. The porn is there, and available for
anyone to use, but as free and equal people, women need not date,
befriend or marry pornmeisters. That is up to them. It is my personal
opinion that men who do use porn are weak men who know they are doing
the wrong thing, but do it anyway.
Why would I want such a person as a friend, lover or mate?
If you don't know of a feedback loop that will get people

to stop using it, and do other things that are more rewarding and at the
same time economically induce less porn usage, in the public, you are just
basically promoting your own fame using a troubling issue to get attention
fo yourself .

Now wait a minute; it's not my job to get people to stop using porn;
I just told you I don't care whether you use porn or not. My own
choice, however, regarding who gets to be important in my own life, is
to exclude people who use porn. And that's just a personal choice for
me, much the same way I don't want to kiss a smoker. ugh. disgusting.

But I see you are trying to act on the pubic interest.

The original postor may be; not me. :-) I don't care how many people
use things that are bad for them. It's up to them.
.

User: "Ike"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	22 Oct 2005 12:38:13 PM

"Hyerdahl" <Hyerdahl3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1129983491.660824.225770@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Ike wrote:

"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1129940995.353583.226220@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/177/story_17736_1.html

How Porn Destroys Lives
(edit)

The problem isn't porn. Porn is a symptomof a problem. Everything you
might
call porn isn't porn anyway. Some kinds of porn are art.

Name a few films like that. . It would be illegal unless the victims signed
a waiver. Conslult a lawyer for more details.

Misuse of the > depiction of erotic acts is like misuse of food or
misuse of coffee. people do this because they are like prisoners. They
either don't have other > options or don't see options. Ask yourself
what is the purpose of attacking the use of porn?

the last sentence you quoted was not mine.

There is where we part company. The porn is there, and available for
anyone to use, but as free and equal people, women need not date,
befriend or marry pornmeisters. That is up to them. It is my personal
opinion that men who do use porn are weak men who know they are doing
the wrong thing, but do it anyway.
Why would I want such a person as a friend, lover or mate?

Apparently some women have lower standards than yours.

If you don't know of a feedback loop that will get people

to stop using it, and do other things that are more rewarding and at the
same time economically induce less porn usage, in the public, you are
just
basically promoting your own fame using a troubling issue to get
attention
fo yourself .

(here I was piggybacking answering he article writer)

But I see you are trying to act on the pubic interest.

The original postor may be; not me. :-) I don't care how many people
use things that are bad for them. It's up to them.

like I said, I was answering the original article, a practice called
piggybacking and should have made that clear, but it was late at night.
Speaking of feedback loops, the only feedback loop the author was promoting
was the RCC's. A feedback loop that benefits a church will not have enough
economic benefit left over to permanently help its members with sex
addiction.
.

User: "Hyerdahl"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	22 Oct 2005 12:58:49 PM

Ike wrote:

"Hyerdahl" <Hyerdahl3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1129983491.660824.225770@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Ike wrote:

"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1129940995.353583.226220@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/177/story_17736_1.html

How Porn Destroys Lives
(edit)

The problem isn't porn. Porn is a symptomof a problem. Everything you
might>> call porn isn't porn anyway. Some kinds of porn are art.

Name a few films like that. . It would be illegal unless the victims signed
a waiver. Conslult a lawyer for more details.

I don't need to consult a lawyer to know about films like that which
do, in fact exist out there. And you may be confusing dramatic art
with reality. No one is talking about raping or torturing a man in
reality; we are talking about ART. The actors sign documents
consenting to be filmed.

the last sentence you quoted was not mine.

Ok, but I'd like to answer anyway.

There is where we part company. The porn is there, and available for
anyone to use, but as free and equal people, women need not date,
befriend or marry pornmeisters. That is up to them. It is my personal
opinion that men who do use porn are weak men who know they are doing
the wrong thing, but do it anyway. Why would I want such a person as a friend, lover or mate?

Apparently some women have lower standards than yours.

Apparently. :-) But then, pornmeisters will tend to attract those
low-quality women, so it all works out.

If you don't know of a feedback loop that will get people
to stop using it, and do other things that are more rewarding and at the

same time economically induce less porn usage, in the public, you are
just basically promoting your own fame using a troubling issue to get
attention fo yourself .

(here I was piggybacking answering he article writer)
Sure. I do that all the time, and folks don't like it. :-)

But I see you are trying to act on the pubic interest.

Not really. I suppose the only interest I have is in making sure women
understand that they need not put up with porn in their own lives, and
that means making better choices. The original postor may be; not me.
:-) I don't care how many people use things that are bad for them.
It's up to them.

like I said, I was answering the original article, a practice called
piggybacking and should have made that clear, but it was late at night.

Oh, that's ok. I do the same thing and so...I don't get mad when
others do it.

Speaking of feedback loops, the only feedback loop the author was promoting
was the RCC's. A feedback loop that benefits a church will not have enough
economic benefit left over to permanently help its members with sex
addiction.

Most patriarchal churches don't even admit sex addiction problems. In
Salt Lake City Utah, during the twice-a-year Mormon conference...they
have to increase the vice squad by 2/3. :-) Men who cannot enjoy
normal relationships with women, often resort to porn or some other
sexual devise they can control. On their knees is how controlling men
like their women, either at the male only chuch alter, or at home or
....in pornography.
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	22 Oct 2005 09:12:50 AM

In <1129940995.353583.226220@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "words of
truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote:

If pornography involved blacks or Jews or any other minority or group

That's actually funny...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"We're angry, Mr. President, and we'll be angry long
after our beloved city and surrounding parishes have
been pumped dry. Our people deserved rescuing.
Many who could have been were not. That's to the
government's shame."
http://www.nola.com/
"FEMA email warned of disaster"
http://makeashorterlink.com/?C5332250C
.

User: "thomas p"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	22 Oct 2005 01:58:01 PM

On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:12:50 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:

In <1129940995.353583.226220@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "words of
truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote:

If pornography involved blacks or Jews or any other minority or group

That's actually funny...

He used to be a writer for Woody Allen.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)

.

User: "Hyerdahl"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	22 Oct 2005 02:35:23 PM

thomas p wrote:

On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:12:50 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:

In <1129940995.353583.226220@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "words of
truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote:

If pornography involved blacks or Jews or any other minority or group

That's actually funny...

He used to be a writer for Woody Allen.

I guess he must have. :-)

Thomas P.

"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"

(Kierkegaard)

User: "Mr. F. Le Mur"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	22 Oct 2005 06:31:47 AM

On 21 Oct 2005 17:29:55 -0700, "words of truth"
<wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/177/story_17736_1.html

How Porn Destroys Lives

AKA, How Puritans Freak Out.
.

User: "Ike"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	22 Oct 2005 12:39:08 PM

"Mr. F. Le Mur" <flemur13013@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nbmll1p0okd9nnoa9i3e7443kjt2pcvuqq@4ax.com...

On 21 Oct 2005 17:29:55 -0700, "words of truth"
<wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/177/story_17736_1.html

How Porn Destroys Lives

AKA, How Puritans Freak Out.

Not just freak out. Promote their church.
.

User: "Hyerdahl"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	22 Oct 2005 12:44:00 PM

Ike wrote:

"Mr. F. Le Mur" <flemur13013@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nbmll1p0okd9nnoa9i3e7443kjt2pcvuqq@4ax.com...

On 21 Oct 2005 17:29:55 -0700, "words of truth"
<wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/177/story_17736_1.html

How Porn Destroys Lives

AKA, How Puritans Freak Out.

Not just freak out. Promote their church.

Controlling patriarchs like their women on their knees, whether it's
praying to a male-only godhead or giving head. Pornography is for
those men, no?
.

User: "MensLiberator"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	22 Oct 2005 06:32:16 PM

Hyerdahl wrote:

Controlling patriarchs like their women on their knees, whether it's
praying to a male-only godhead or giving head. Pornography is for
those men, no?

This image of this pathetic little woman bowing down to a man that you
create.
If only it were real somehwere!
If we do a reality check on all this, the fact is there are two
situations in life.
Marriage or equivalent relationships and being single.
The issue is not about single people who can be their own boss, not
controlled by any patriarch or MATRIARCH.
It is about the status of men and women in marriage or living together
as if they were married.
And the point there is one or the other has to be the boss.
And more likely than not it is now the woman, especially when backed up
by the forces of law, the police and the courts.
Men do not want women on their knees, except for a few sick ones, just
like the sick women who become dominatrixes and do disgusting things to
men for money.
All that sensible men want is PEACE and RATIONALITY in the home.
In at least 75-90% of modern families it is the women calling the
shots.
This image of the little woman bowing down before the monstrous
patriarch is laughable beyond belief, and may have existed in the
Victorian era, but certainly not since the 1960s.
Pornography is exploiting men - they pay for it, instead of being able
to demand or expect sex from their wives as in previous eras.
The women doing it, mostly laugh at men for being so stupid to hand
over their hard earned cash for what they used to get for free.
As to women praying on their knees to a god, women voluntarily choose
to pray on their knees to many gods, and "goddesses", like those who
produce the fashions they slavishly buy into, and the soap operas they
are slavishly addicted to, and the jobs and career paths they
egotistically worship, and above all the feminist philosophies which
they imagine will liberate them but only give them more pain than they
have ever had in history, because such philosophies create a needless,
pointless, vain and futile war with men of which nobody benefits, and
the main casualties are not only men, but women themselves and their
children.
Any sane woman would gather all the feminists together and put them on
a boat to a far away place and hope they never return.
But psychologically damaged women who have had many unhappy
relationships cling to the raft of feminism as if it were going to
bring them to a "treasure island" instead of the disaster of being
scuttled on the rocks, and even if they get off the rocks, they find
they are sailing nowhere but cast adrift on the ocean forever, without
ever finding "the promised land."
The promised land, is when women learn to put their egos aside and find
out how to be loving people. Women's problem is not about men. It's
about not having love in their hearts, and expressing it as hate and
envy of men as most of the feminist culture and philosophy does.
A philosophy that is based on hate and envy - i.e. feminism - just
destroys whoever follows it. It robs them of the opportunity to be good
hearted and real human beings.
We men so much want to love you women, but in your fear and envy and
arguing over things that don't matter, you won't let us.
We don't want you to kneel. We just want to put our arms around you and
have you sit on our knee and give you the love you refuse, but so very
desperately need.
.

User: "KiriK"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	22 Oct 2005 08:29:20 PM

MensLiberator wrote:

Hyerdahl wrote:

Controlling patriarchs like their women on their knees, whether it's
praying to a male-only godhead or giving head. Pornography is for
those men, no?

This image of this pathetic little woman bowing down to a man that you
create.

If only it were real somehwere!

Yeah, it's a fantasy. Like all those fairy tales with the damsels in
distress and knights in shining armor and happily ever after. We all
want that to happen, but reality is lots different.
Okay, the bible says that women should be submissive. And a lot of guys
think that that's how it should be and they feel that women who aren't
that way are sinful and wicked.
And there's the macho man image of a guy who women fall all over
themselves to be with and who'll do anything for them. A lot of guys
want that too.
That's fantasy. That's what porn is. It's men dominating women. Well,
mostly. It's men doing stuff to women and women obeying and enjoying
it. You know, how many times do you see a woman on top, or a guy
licking *****? And there's no love or tenderness at all in porn. It's
all lust.
But guys want that fantasy and they aren't getting it in reality, so
that's why porn is how it is. They're selling a fantasy.
Hiya James!

Pornography is exploiting men - they pay for it, instead of being able
to demand or expect sex from their wives as in previous eras.

Yeah, It's men exploiting other men.

The women doing it, mostly laugh at men for being so stupid to hand
over their hard earned cash for what they used to get for free.

Umm, well, the women are happy to have a job because it makes them
free. But it's men that run all those porn movies and stuff. They do
the writing and the directing and take the pictures.

As to women praying on their knees to a god, women voluntarily choose
to pray on their knees to many gods, and "goddesses", like those who
produce the fashions they slavishly buy into, and the soap operas they
are slavishly addicted to, and the jobs and career paths they
egotistically worship, and above all the feminist philosophies which
they imagine will liberate them but only give them more pain than they
have ever had in history, because such philosophies create a needless,
pointless, vain and futile war with men of which nobody benefits, and
the main casualties are not only men, but women themselves and their
children.

I don't know. When you're young you want that true love fantasy and the
total trust thing and so you give in to your lover and fall head over
heels in love. But when you give yourself so freely you end up getting
exploited or used and hurt. And so you don't give in as much the next
time and you're more careful but you still end up getting hurt. So
after a while you learn not to give in and not to trust so much and
then love doesn't feel so good anymore and you wish that you could go
back and feel like you did when you were young.
I feel that that's true for men too. That's sad.

The promised land, is when women learn to put their egos aside and find
out how to be loving people. Women's problem is not about men. It's
about not having love in their hearts, and expressing it as hate and
envy of men as most of the feminist culture and philosophy does.

Yeah, and men have lots of ego problems too.

We men so much want to love you women, but in your fear and envy and
arguing over things that don't matter, you won't let us.

Yeah, and lots of men have issues with women too, like fear and anger.
Some men only want sex, but most of them want love too, and they end up
getting hurt the same way that women do. They want the fantasy, but
reality isn't like that, and so they get hurt.
KiriK
.

User: ""
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	23 Oct 2005 03:17:52 AM

This image of this pathetic little woman bowing down to a man that you
create.
If only it were real somehwere!

Yeah, it's a fantasy. Like all those fairy tales with the damsels in
distress and knights in shining armor and happily ever after. We all
want that to happen, but reality is lots different.
REPLY
Well, you see Kiri, I don't see life like that, that it can't be real.
But if women don't behave like princesses and men don't behave like
knights then yes, obviously it can't and doesn't happen.
And I am just suggesting that if women would be women again, and men
would be men, it could happen.
It's not about clothes and props, it's about behaviour.
Like in Don Quixote, he imagines he is a knight in shining armour
devoting his life to a fair maiden, even though it's all a delusion on
his part.
It doesn't have to be a delusion if a man can find a fair maiden, and
the fair maiden can find a knight.
But since feminism, fair maidens don't often play fair any more, and
then the knights go off on a different kind of quest, which makes it
seem like they don't exist any more.
KIRI
Okay, the bible says that women should be submissive. And a lot of guys
think that that's how it should be and they feel that women who aren't
that way are sinful and wicked.
REPLY
Well, as I said in replying to Hyerdahl, I can't see how you can have
true equality in a relationship, and though both partners shoudl
respect each other, I think if you are talking marriage or living
together, or having children together, it has to be agreed who is going
to be "the boss."
KIRI
And there's the macho man image of a guy who women fall all over
themselves to be with and who'll do anything for them. A lot of guys
want that too.
REPLY
Well Kiri, I think women who go for that, are just stupid women, don't
you?
I mean, I think women should agree to let a man who is smarter or wise
than them be the boss, but just submitting to a guy because he is a big
strong hunk and maybe aggressive, is a pretty stupid thing to do, I
would say.
KIRI
That's fantasy. That's what porn is. It's men dominating women. Well,
mostly. It's men doing stuff to women and women obeying and enjoying
it. You know, how many times do you see a woman on top, or a guy
licking *****? And there's no love or tenderness at all in porn. It's
all lust.
REPLY
Yes, Kiri, I agree that porn is often about men who feel like dirt
treating women in the same way.
I mean, I feel that the current society has made men feel like nothing,
and they see all these beautiful women going down the street in their
fine clothes, looking sexy and beautiful, 99.9999% of whom they can
never have.
So most men feel like nothing when compared to some beautiful
"goddess", and when they find even relatively plain women can reject
them and treat them like dirt, and refuse their sexual demands, they go
in for "fantasies of empowment", which involve forcibly dominating or
beating women or whatever, because in that, their feeling of
humiliation is assuaged by humiliating and dominating women, as least
temporarily.
But then in real life, they get domianted by and humiliated by real
women again, so porn becomes maybe the only arena for men where they
can actually get the "sex" they want, but almost all the women they
want won't give to them.
This also explains why many men have rough, violent sex with women.
They are trying to humiliate women because they themselves feel
humiliated.
It is just like the bully who bullies others due to having been bullied
themselves (usually by a parent). They are trying to get back their
feeling of OKayness, of self-respect, which in their immaturity they
can only do by humiliating, bullying or dominating someone else.
KIRI
But guys want that fantasy and they aren't getting it in reality, so
that's why porn is how it is. They're selling a fantasy.
REPLY
Yes, Kiri, thats it all right, they are selling men fantasies, because
they can't get the real thing, so it's pretty sad and exploitative
really isn't it?

Pornography is exploiting men - they pay for it, instead of being able
to demand or expect sex from their wives as in previous eras.

KIRI
Yeah, It's men exploiting other men.
REPLY
Yes, Kiri, and also sometimes women exploiting men, because some women
get very wealthy and famous due to porn, especially the smarter ones,
who just do "page 3" or something, and do "glamour" as opposed to
"porn."

The women doing it, mostly laugh at men for being so stupid to hand
over their hard earned cash for what they used to get for free.

KIRI
Umm, well, the women are happy to have a job because it makes them
free. But it's men that run all those porn movies and stuff. They do
the writing and the directing and take the pictures.
REPLY
Well, Kiri, I wish there were better jobs for women than that, and that
they would stop being so willing to be porn stars, which so many young
women obviously are.
KIRI
I don't know. When you're young you want that true love fantasy and the
total trust thing and so you give in to your lover and fall head over
heels in love. But when you give yourself so freely you end up getting
exploited or used and hurt. And so you don't give in as much the next
time and you're more careful but you still end up getting hurt. So
after a while you learn not to give in and not to trust so much and
then love doesn't feel so good anymore and you wish that you could go
back and feel like you did when you were young.
I feel that that's true for men too. That's sad.
KIRI
Yes, Kiri, you have a good heart.
I feel that you just have to be more careful in relationships, and not
jump in "head first."
I am "old fashioned" in many of my ideas because I think the old
fashioned ideas made people happier.
If you take the time to be friends with a man, find someone you really
like as a friend, and don't get into sex until you are really good
friends, then there is something more than sex holding the relationship
together.
But I don't think it happens very often that men and women become good
friends. If you look at marriages, even celebrity ones that last, that
is the reason - they are good mates, regardless of gender issues.

KIRI
Yeah, and men have lots of ego problems too.
REPLY
Yes, Kiri, I know, I am just going on about the feminists, which you do
not appear to me to be.

We men so much want to love you women, but in your fear and envy and
arguing over things that don't matter, you won't let us.

KIRI
Yeah, and lots of men have issues with women too, like fear and anger.
Some men only want sex, but most of them want love too, and they end up
getting hurt the same way that women do. They want the fantasy, but
reality isn't like that, and so they get hurt.
KiriK
REPLY
Yes, Kiri, I think we all ask too much of one another, especially in
terms of sex. The best kind of man for a woman to have is one who isn't
crazy about sex. That's why a lot of girls go for older men to have
relationships with, because they are mostly not so sex crazed as
younger men, they care more about the relationship and the
"togetherness" than the "wham bam" part all the time.
.

User: "KiriK"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	23 Oct 2005 10:48:21 PM

wrote:

This image of this pathetic little woman bowing down to a man that you
create.

If only it were real somehwere!

Yeah, I liked that book. I remember the stuff with the windmills
whenever I see all those religious guys trying to wipe out pornography
and teen sex and stuff. They all want to be Crusaders for Jesus.
Hiya again!

It doesn't have to be a delusion if a man can find a fair maiden, and
the fair maiden can find a knight.

But since feminism, fair maidens don't often play fair any more, and
then the knights go off on a different kind of quest, which makes it
seem like they don't exist any more.

Yeah, but guys never played fair. When you first meet them it's like,
you are their quest and they're so noble and they say and do everything
to make you believe that they're the one and so you let them into your
castle and then the next thing you know they're off on another quest
for another damsel. Pbbbt!
Anyway, I know all about fantasy because that's what I do for a living.
I can be whoever a man wants me to be. I've learned a lot about men and
their fantasies.

KIRI
And there's the macho man image of a guy who women fall all over
themselves to be with and who'll do anything for them. A lot of guys
want that too.

REPLY
Well Kiri, I think women who go for that, are just stupid women, don't
you?

I mean, I think women should agree to let a man who is smarter or wise
than them be the boss, but just submitting to a guy because he is a big
strong hunk and maybe aggressive, is a pretty stupid thing to do, I
would say.

Well, you fall in love because you feel that he's the one. Yeah, it's
stupid to follow your heart, but it hurts not to. And, well it hurts
when your heart gets broken too. Now it's like, when I feel myself
falling love with a guy I'm filled with this feeling of dread too. I
hate that.

I mean, I feel that the current society has made men feel like nothing,
and they see all these beautiful women going down the street in their
fine clothes, looking sexy and beautiful, 99.9999% of whom they can
never have.

Yeah, but not 100%.

But then in real life, they get domianted by and humiliated by real
women again, so porn becomes maybe the only arena for men where they
can actually get the "sex" they want, but almost all the women they
want won't give to them.

Yeah, almost all, but not all.
Is there someone out there who you are avoiding? Why?

KIRI
But guys want that fantasy and they aren't getting it in reality, so
that's why porn is how it is. They're selling a fantasy.

REPLY
Yes, Kiri, thats it all right, they are selling men fantasies, because
they can't get the real thing, so it's pretty sad and exploitative
really isn't it?

Yeah, but at least they have porn. If they didn't have anything then
that would be really sad.

REPLY
Yes, Kiri, and also sometimes women exploiting men, because some women
get very wealthy and famous due to porn, especially the smarter ones,
who just do "page 3" or something, and do "glamour" as opposed to
"porn."

It doesn't pay that well. Unless you're like Jenna and you write a book
that everyone buys.

REPLY
Well, Kiri, I wish there were better jobs for women than that, and that
they would stop being so willing to be porn stars, which so many young
women obviously are.

Yeah, that's a total meat market. I'm so glad that I don't have to do
that.

I am "old fashioned" in many of my ideas because I think the old
fashioned ideas made people happier.

If you take the time to be friends with a man, find someone you really
like as a friend, and don't get into sex until you are really good
friends, then there is something more than sex holding the relationship
together.

Yeah, that's the old fashioned thing. You know, when you first go to
bed with a guy that's when you give in to him too. Then you get sex and
love mixed up and that can mess up your sex life because all your
emotional issues get in the way.

We men so much want to love you women, but in your fear and envy and
arguing over things that don't matter, you won't let us.

KIRI
Yeah, and lots of men have issues with women too, like fear and anger.
Some men only want sex, but most of them want love too, and they end up
getting hurt the same way that women do. They want the fantasy, but
reality isn't like that, and so they get hurt.

REPLY
Yes, Kiri, I think we all ask too much of one another, especially in
terms of sex. The best kind of man for a woman to have is one who isn't
crazy about sex. That's why a lot of girls go for older men to have
relationships with, because they are mostly not so sex crazed as
younger men, they care more about the relationship and the
"togetherness" than the "wham bam" part all the time.

Umm, you're right that they don't want sex so much.
KiriK
.

User: "Katt"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	24 Oct 2005 08:51:35 AM

"KiriK" <kiri.kensington@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1130125701.232928.310750@f14g2000cwb.

Anyway, I know all about fantasy because that's what I do for a living.

Wow!!
Katt.
.

User: "KiriK"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	25 Oct 2005 02:34:10 AM

Katt wrote:

"KiriK" <kiri.kensington@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1130125701.232928.310750@f14g2000cwb.

Anyway, I know all about fantasy because that's what I do for a living.

Wow!!

Katt.

Purrrrrr.
KiriK
.

User: "MensLiberator"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	24 Oct 2005 02:05:18 AM

KIRI
Yeah, but guys never played fair. When you first meet them it's like,
you are their quest and they're so noble and they say and do everything
to make you believe that they're the one and so you let them into your
castle and then the next thing you know they're off on another quest
for another damsel. Pbbbt!
REPLY
Well, the thing is Kiri, it depends what you want out of life.
If you want a long lasting relationship with a man, I would if I were
you make him wait at least a year before having sex with him ,and I
mean by that, be his friend for a year, and if he still wants to be
with you as a friend, your best friend, and he wants to be with you
daily as opposed to anyone else.
If a man's quest is not for YOU, then he is not going to see you
regularly and wait a whole year for you.
But when women jump into bed with a man after a few dates or weeks they
are never going to know if he is really intrested in them, or only
interested in seeing her to get his regular fix.
KIRI
Anyway, I know all about fantasy because that's what I do for a living.
I can be whoever a man wants me to be. I've learned a lot about men and
their fantasies.
REPLY
Well, I am not going to judge you for doing what you do Kiri,
particularly since as I said before, you seem to be like someone who
has got a kind heart, which I think it is fairly well known quite a lot
of people in your occupation have got.
I can't tell for sure, but you also sound quite young, so hopefully
there is a lot of time for you to do something else if you want to.
None of us is condemned to a life of not being who we want to be.
The thing is, most people are just interested in looking after number
one, and it is really not easy to find another human being to care
about any of us, unless we are going to do a lot for them in return.
So really, unless you are going to have a family with children, and
take care of a man, he is not likely going to stay with you or any
other woman.
But there are very definitely two kinds of men - the faithful - one
woman man - and the ones who live by the code "why buy one book when
you can take thousands out of the library for free?"
So if you want to settle down with one man, you have to look for one of
the faithful types, but they are going to want you to be faithful too.
I mean, if a faithful type of man thinks a woman is easy, he is not
going to be interested, because he doesn't want to arrive home one day
and find her in bed with someone else, because he doesn't do that
himself.
I would advise you Kiri, that if you must do what you do, to charge as
much as you possibly can and retire in a few years, because you are
only fleecing wealthy men who probably fleece other people to get their
money any way.
Then if you want to - as I said, I'm not judging you, your life is your
own - you can start some place new, and leave that life totally behind.
Open a flower shop or something, far away from where you do business
now - another country even maybe - and then you can be whoever you
like.
I hope you didn't find those suggestions offensive Kiri.
I am going to stop posting here now however, because I am quite a
private person, and frankly it disturbs my mind to be exposing my
thoughts in public like this, so thanks for the friendly communication
Kiri, but now I'll say good bye and good luck to you.
.

User: "KiriK"
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	25 Oct 2005 02:33:10 AM

MensLiberator wrote:

If you want a long lasting relationship with a man, I would if I were
you make him wait at least a year before having sex with him ,and I
mean by that, be his friend for a year, and if he still wants to be
with you as a friend, your best friend, and he wants to be with you
daily as opposed to anyone else.

If a man's quest is not for YOU, then he is not going to see you
regularly and wait a whole year for you.

Yeah, a guy who'd wait a year. Wow. I don't know. Sex is really
important to guys. I'd feel bad about making a guy wait that long for
me. And if he was really hot I couldn't wait that long either. :)
Hiya James!
You know, letting a guy into your heart and letting him into your *****
are two different things. I know that all the movies are like you fall
in love and then you end up in bed in the next scene. I guess that
that's the old fashioned thing. But you can tell a lot about a guy by
how he touches you and how he reacts when you touch him. Just don't go
all doe-eyed after the first kiss.

KIRI
Anyway, I know all about fantasy because that's what I do for a living.
I can be whoever a man wants me to be. I've learned a lot about men and
their fantasies.

REPLY
Well, I am not going to judge you for doing what you do Kiri,
particularly since as I said before, you seem to be like someone who
has got a kind heart, which I think it is fairly well known quite a lot
of people in your occupation have got.

Yeah, but a lot of them are total bitches. I don't know how they can do
it. It's like they hate their clients but they put up this perfect act
when they're with them.

So if you want to settle down with one man, you have to look for one of
the faithful types, but they are going to want you to be faithful too.

My lover is great. He's okay with what I do. He's not the jealous type.
I want to hold on to him but I'm always flying off somewhere. I hope
that he stays with me.

I would advise you Kiri, that if you must do what you do, to charge as
much as you possibly can and retire in a few years, because you are
only fleecing wealthy men who probably fleece other people to get their
money any way.

Yeah. Everybody is loaded these days. Shanghai is totally crazy. And
the Arabs. I mean, a million dollars is like nothing to them. But then
they turn around and go nuts about some little thing like how expensive
room service is. "I would buy the hotel just to fire the manager!" And
they're not joking.

Then if you want to - as I said, I'm not judging you, your life is your
own - you can start some place new, and leave that life totally behind.

Yeah, on a beach in Southern France.

I hope you didn't find those suggestions offensive Kiri.

It's okay. I've been called lots worse.

I am going to stop posting here now however, because I am quite a
private person, and frankly it disturbs my mind to be exposing my
thoughts in public like this, so thanks for the friendly communication
Kiri, but now I'll say good bye and good luck to you.

James, you are such a warm and kind man and I'm so happy that you
opened your heart to me. I opened up too and it felt wonderful. You
have a beautiful gift to give some lucky woman and I'm going to be so
jealous of her.
KiriK
.

User: ""
Title: Re: How Pornography Destroys Lives	25 Oct 2005 03:52:20 AM

KiriK wrote:

Hi Kiri
I have actually unsubscribed from the group now Kiri - just come back
on briefly to reply to you and then I am off again.
But thanks for SEEING ME AS I REALLY AM which a lot of the other
"ladies" on here during my brief "visit" were incapable of doing.
There are only two kinds of people in the world - those with hearts and
those without, and it really is not a gender issue.
Unlike you, most of the women on here have got nothing to say to men
except insults, and so I realise there is not any point wasting my time
"aruging the toss" with them on here, so I am leaving it to the other
guys on here, who enjoy banging their heads againt a brick wall
apparently far more than I do.
Good luck Kiri, take care and enjoy that beach!
James.
.