In article <IvydnaAMouj1Dv7anZ2dnUVZ_s-pnZ2d@hawaiiantel.net>,
"Hertz Donut" <somewhere@outthere.net> wrote:

"Bill Baker" <wbaker@postini.spamcon.org> wrote in message
news:13m4aegcjep7gd9@corp.supernews.com...

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 20:02:43 -1000, Hertz Donut
<somewhere@outthere.net>
wrote in message
news:<u_SdnYdylfgegf_anZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@hawaiiantel.net>:

"Hugh Gibbons" <hugh_gibbons@dontsendmeemail.net> wrote in message
news:QaSdnVjn46AXkv_anZ2dnUVZ_rqdnZ2d@comcast.com...

In article <ZfWdnYnfae8HHvzanZ2dnUVZ_vGinZ2d@hawaiiantel.net>,
"Hertz Donut" <somewhere@outthere.net> wrote:

Admiring Bill Clinton on the grounds that he was a "good" president
is
beyond any comprehension.

Well, here are some things that I would regard as measures of
"goodness" in a President.

* Enforces the law as written and does what is manifestly the right
thing even when it is to his political disadvantage.
Example: Defied Florida's Cuban exile community and popular
sentiment to return Elian Gonzalez to his father.
Counterexample: First known cases of extraordinary rendition
took place with his approval.

Clinton was impeached for perjury and obstruction, and conduct
unbecoming.

Funny how you keep returning to that. It's as if it's the only thing
you have on Clinton. Oh, wait, it is. Other than that he was a good
president.

* Works with members of all parties to achieve legislative goals.
Example: Welfare reform, every budget from 1995 to 2001.

Clinton and his butt-ugly spouse are the most partisan, party line
players
in Washington.

Is that why he had a Republican secretary of defense and frequently
worked with a Republican congress to pass legislation rather than
bully them like the current president does?

* Exercises fiscal restraint, works with Congress to set funding
levels within the government's means.
Example: With Congress, reduced budget deficit each year in
office and ran surpluses his last two years.

Cut budgets for the military, for NASA, medical research, education,
among
others.

And yet still reduced the budget deficit.

While completely eviscerating our own military....

* Has a firm and steady hand with international adversaries.

No, the only thing that Clinton had his hand in is the cookie jar, and
a
few
pages.
Don't know where you were going with this one, but Clinton failed
miserably
at retribution for all the attacks on the U.S. and it's assets that
occured
during his watch. DFunny how only those wearing their Clinton
blinders
cannot see that.

He was certainly more successful than Bush.

Two operations in Yugoslavia were successful. Containment and
disarmament of Iraq was successful.

Wow...complete *****. Saddam continue to thumb his nose at both
the
U.S.
and the U. N. for the duration of the Clinton administration, because
he
knew that Clinton was a wuss and would do nothing about it.

Is that why he backed down immediately when Clinton called his bluff
and sent planes to bomb him? And when he went back on his word
Clinton went ahead and bombed him? As for Bush, I bet Saddam is
laughing at him from hell.

Declining to intervene in
Rwanda should was his most consequential failure.

* Achieves a significant body of legislative actions that manifestly
benefit the people:

I guess if you only count those that already have everything on a
silver
platter....Clinton benefitted only the have's, not the have nots.

No, you're thinking of Bush again.

n left office with a 65% approval rating.

When the average person polled cannot name the vice president of the
U.S.,
can't identify the Pacific Ocean on a map, and cannot identify their
own
state on a map without state names on it, what does that mean? The
presidency is nto a popularity contest.

The presidency most certainly is a popularity contest. The most
popular
candidate wins the election.

*YAWN*...trying to have a debate with you is like trying to explain
physics
to a 2 year old.

Honu

It's more like a two year old trying to explain physics to his daddy.
The reason the two year old doesn't make any progress in this endeavor
is the same trouble you are having.

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 22:42:15 -1000, Hertz Donut <somewhere@outthere.net>
wrote in message news:<IvydnaAMouj1Dv7anZ2dnUVZ_s-pnZ2d@hawaiiantel.net>:

"Bill Baker" <wbaker@postini.spamcon.org> wrote in message
news:13m4aegcjep7gd9@corp.supernews.com...

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 20:02:43 -1000, Hertz Donut <somewhere@outthere.net>
wrote in message
news:<u_SdnYdylfgegf_anZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@hawaiiantel.net>:

"Hugh Gibbons" <hugh_gibbons@dontsendmeemail.net> wrote in message
news:QaSdnVjn46AXkv_anZ2dnUVZ_rqdnZ2d@comcast.com...

In article <ZfWdnYnfae8HHvzanZ2dnUVZ_vGinZ2d@hawaiiantel.net>,
"Hertz Donut" <somewhere@outthere.net> wrote:

Admiring Bill Clinton on the grounds that he was a "good" president
is
beyond any comprehension.

Well, here are some things that I would regard as measures of
"goodness" in a President.

* Enforces the law as written and does what is manifestly the right
thing even when it is to his political disadvantage.
Example: Defied Florida's Cuban exile community and popular
sentiment to return Elian Gonzalez to his father.
Counterexample: First known cases of extraordinary rendition
took place with his approval.

Clinton was impeached for perjury and obstruction, and conduct
unbecoming.

Funny how you keep returning to that. It's as if it's the only thing
you have on Clinton. Oh, wait, it is. Other than that he was a good
president.

* Works with members of all parties to achieve legislative goals.
Example: Welfare reform, every budget from 1995 to 2001.

Clinton and his butt-ugly spouse are the most partisan, party line
players
in Washington.

Is that why he had a Republican secretary of defense and frequently
worked with a Republican congress to pass legislation rather than
bully them like the current president does?

* Exercises fiscal restraint, works with Congress to set funding
levels within the government's means.
Example: With Congress, reduced budget deficit each year in
office and ran surpluses his last two years.

Cut budgets for the military, for NASA, medical research, education,
among
others.

And yet still reduced the budget deficit.

While completely eviscerating our own military....

* Has a firm and steady hand with international adversaries.

No, the only thing that Clinton had his hand in is the cookie jar, and
a
few
pages.
Don't know where you were going with this one, but Clinton failed
miserably
at retribution for all the attacks on the U.S. and it's assets that
occured
during his watch. DFunny how only those wearing their Clinton blinders
cannot see that.

He was certainly more successful than Bush.

Two operations in Yugoslavia were successful. Containment and
disarmament of Iraq was successful.

Wow...complete *****. Saddam continue to thumb his nose at both the
U.S.
and the U. N. for the duration of the Clinton administration, because
he
knew that Clinton was a wuss and would do nothing about it.

Is that why he backed down immediately when Clinton called his bluff
and sent planes to bomb him? And when he went back on his word
Clinton went ahead and bombed him? As for Bush, I bet Saddam is
laughing at him from hell.

Declining to intervene in
Rwanda should was his most consequential failure.

* Achieves a significant body of legislative actions that manifestly
benefit the people:

I guess if you only count those that already have everything on a
silver
platter....Clinton benefitted only the have's, not the have nots.

No, you're thinking of Bush again.

n left office with a 65% approval rating.

When the average person polled cannot name the vice president of the
U.S.,
can't identify the Pacific Ocean on a map, and cannot identify their
own
state on a map without state names on it, what does that mean? The
presidency is nto a popularity contest.

The presidency most certainly is a popularity contest. The most popular
candidate wins the election.

*YAWN*...trying to have a debate with you is like trying to explain
physics
to a 2 year old.

...with you being the 2-year-old. Right-wingers like yourself are known
for denying facts and reality. Thanks for yet another demonstration.

In article <9sidnSqxD8BcYfzanZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@hawaiiantel.net>,
"Hertz Donut" <somewhere@outthere.net> wrote:

What cowardice are you speaking of?

The failure of Clinton to prosecute all the attacks on the U.S. that
occured
during his watch. His failure to stop the planning and commision of the
events of 9/11.

Can be even more directly assigned to George W. Bush, during whose term
the final planning and execution of that plot took place, after he ignored
all the warning signs. He was already focused on invading Iraq months
before the 9/11 attack.

You want to talk about cowardice? Who was President when an American
spy plane was forced down in China and who allowed the Chinese to get
away with taking it apart and sending it home in pieces three months
later? And who APOLOGIZED for this incident? Ring any bells?