How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "darwinist"
Date: 03 Jul 2006 07:42:03 PM
Object: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric
How can we prove that discomfort is a message from our
evolutionary-past, telling us to change some general kind of thing in
our specific situation? More importantly perhaps, how can we prove that
it is a message that ought to be ascribed some moral authority in our
modern world?
The requisite beliefs would seem to include evolution and evolutionary
psychology, so if the principles of these approaches do not sit well
with you, then go and read something else. Beyond that we need to
establish a moral system from these premises, and fit comfort and
discomfort somewhere around the top and centre. That is quite a
challenge, but should be sufficient.
While another person can inpsire unhealthy habits, we need only to
consider a human without a society to see a good example of ill-health.
Humans are of course social animals, and this fact has certainly not
changed from our primate ancestors to our caveman prototypes to us
modern-day civilised apes. If anything we have become more dependent on
other people, or at least on more other people. Any brain that didn't
guide us towards some kinds of social advantage from time to time would
almost certainly get us killed long before the age of reproduction, let
alone the actual accomplishment of it, our chances of which would
likely be crippled enough if we were alive, but without any trace of
social awareness or competence. We instinctively care about other
people, but the levels and manifestations will vary according to your
life and the people you encounter.
We also have within us the capacity to cheat and steal and kill and
dominate. This has proven useful in the past when dealing with other
groups of people, but tends to lose more energy than co-operation, or
at least <shudder> democracy, when that's an option. The conflict
between our need for other people and the possible advantages of
screwing them over, provide the market for ethical systems. In
pragmatic terms, what strategic balance can be struck between the two
instinctive drives just mentioned?
I slipped in there the idea that co-operation is cheaper, and it barely
needs to be proven. Wars cost lives, cities and factories. They use up
power plants, workers, and political time. If the goal of any social
system is to secure wealth - in its broadest sense of useful forms of
energy and information - for the people in control, then wars are
clearly a fools errand when more peaceful development is possible. If
you can harness the energy and organise the people then you can create
the wealth. The only proof that needs to be offered is the relative
rates of peace within democratic countries in the last hundred years
(unless they lose their democracy, please note), and between them. The
relative wealth, health and education are also discoverable from the
united nations or the cia, although both of these organisations have an
obvious bias towards (some meaning of the word) democracy.
A moral system that aims for you and yours to win, can aim for others
to win as a means to this end, but not an end in itself, unless you get
a buzz out of that kind of thing. The possible need for conflict need
not be disputed, but the possible means for co-operation should be the
focus, since it's the better option, when it's genuine.
This is all merely to show that some forms of co-operation can be
selfish and hedonistic, and can be an effective means of looking after
your personal interests. The point is to show that genuine co-operation
is not precluded, and so neither is honest dealing. They are usually
preferable, even if only from a purely economic point of view, but it
must be allowed that one could conceivably be in a position where
telling the truth is the wrong thing to do, or where co-operation is
immoral.
How to further any ethical system, using comfort as a metric, is
another question entirely. From an evolutionary point of view, the
brain needs some means to guide the mind as to what's good and what's
bad, so its self-awareness can be aware of something useful. Our
awareness of possible effects in the long term, due to the things that
we see happening around us, could be offered as such as means, but as
with immediate decisions, our reflections are ultimately judged by how
we feel about them. I will leave it to the reader to prove this to
themselves.
In other words we make decisions by emotional means anyway, and to be
aware of this is not to be a selfish hedonist who neglects and abuses
everybody else, but a selfish hedonist who looks for the best way to
satisfy their various desires, and aims for peaceful development with
anyone who aims for the same.
Comfort and discomfort are more important than stronger pleasure and
displeasure, because they give you the strategic information you need,
earlier. Small comforts will build into pleasure over time and small
discomforts into displeasure. I guess I am splitting hairs here but
discomfort is intended to denote the minor, creeping unpleasantness
that usually arrives before any storms of displeasure, although perhaps
not always.
In other words one should focus on comfort because it will warn you of
what you need to know, and will warn you when it starts, rather than
when it's got out of control. The little bad things are usually not
there for a good reason, just something you haven't dealt with yet. The
little good things are often achievable with an unintrusive detour. Of
course balance is everything but comfort can guide you if you pay
attention to how it behaves. Just because it's yours doesn't mean you
understand it, and it gives you more important information than any
other single faculty.
Lastly, comfort is only useful in the first place because it is
attached to other pieces of information floating around inside your
mind. Focussing on feelings will therefore put the rest of ones life in
focus, rather than create a distraction from it.
.

User: "RyanT"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 04 Jul 2006 08:28:02 PM
You may be interested in looking up the concept of "Tit-for-tat"...it's
a rule system used in game theory mathematics. The rules are as
follows:
1. Unless provoked, the agent will always cooperate.
2. If provoked, the agent will retaliate.
3. The agent is quick to forgive.
4. The agent must have a 2/3 chance of competing against the opponent
more than once. (This figure is adjustable.)
Oddly enough this algorythm has proven itself to be consistently
effective in simulation games, and it somewhat explains why animals and
human beings have come to rely on cooperation in order to function in
the world.
While its true that a person could acquire benefits in the short term
by screwing people over, in the long term it becomes much more
beneficial to simply cooperate, as you've said. Virtue is it's own
reward, as they say...when you're younger you sort of laugh at that
statement, but eventually you realize that these deeds do culmilate
into something bigger over longer periods of time. Is it kharma or is
it math? Either way, it supports what you are saying.
darwinist wrote:

How can we prove that discomfort is a message from our
evolutionary-past, telling us to change some general kind of thing in
our specific situation? More importantly perhaps, how can we prove that
it is a message that ought to be ascribed some moral authority in our
modern world?

The requisite beliefs would seem to include evolution and evolutionary
psychology, so if the principles of these approaches do not sit well
with you, then go and read something else. Beyond that we need to
establish a moral system from these premises, and fit comfort and
discomfort somewhere around the top and centre. That is quite a
challenge, but should be sufficient.

While another person can inpsire unhealthy habits, we need only to
consider a human without a society to see a good example of ill-health.
Humans are of course social animals, and this fact has certainly not
changed from our primate ancestors to our caveman prototypes to us
modern-day civilised apes. If anything we have become more dependent on
other people, or at least on more other people. Any brain that didn't
guide us towards some kinds of social advantage from time to time would
almost certainly get us killed long before the age of reproduction, let
alone the actual accomplishment of it, our chances of which would
likely be crippled enough if we were alive, but without any trace of
social awareness or competence. We instinctively care about other
people, but the levels and manifestations will vary according to your
life and the people you encounter.

We also have within us the capacity to cheat and steal and kill and
dominate. This has proven useful in the past when dealing with other
groups of people, but tends to lose more energy than co-operation, or
at least <shudder> democracy, when that's an option. The conflict
between our need for other people and the possible advantages of
screwing them over, provide the market for ethical systems. In
pragmatic terms, what strategic balance can be struck between the two
instinctive drives just mentioned?

I slipped in there the idea that co-operation is cheaper, and it barely
needs to be proven. Wars cost lives, cities and factories. They use up
power plants, workers, and political time. If the goal of any social
system is to secure wealth - in its broadest sense of useful forms of
energy and information - for the people in control, then wars are
clearly a fools errand when more peaceful development is possible. If
you can harness the energy and organise the people then you can create
the wealth. The only proof that needs to be offered is the relative
rates of peace within democratic countries in the last hundred years
(unless they lose their democracy, please note), and between them. The
relative wealth, health and education are also discoverable from the
united nations or the cia, although both of these organisations have an
obvious bias towards (some meaning of the word) democracy.

A moral system that aims for you and yours to win, can aim for others
to win as a means to this end, but not an end in itself, unless you get
a buzz out of that kind of thing. The possible need for conflict need
not be disputed, but the possible means for co-operation should be the
focus, since it's the better option, when it's genuine.

This is all merely to show that some forms of co-operation can be
selfish and hedonistic, and can be an effective means of looking after
your personal interests. The point is to show that genuine co-operation
is not precluded, and so neither is honest dealing. They are usually
preferable, even if only from a purely economic point of view, but it
must be allowed that one could conceivably be in a position where
telling the truth is the wrong thing to do, or where co-operation is
immoral.

How to further any ethical system, using comfort as a metric, is
another question entirely. From an evolutionary point of view, the
brain needs some means to guide the mind as to what's good and what's
bad, so its self-awareness can be aware of something useful. Our
awareness of possible effects in the long term, due to the things that
we see happening around us, could be offered as such as means, but as
with immediate decisions, our reflections are ultimately judged by how
we feel about them. I will leave it to the reader to prove this to
themselves.

In other words we make decisions by emotional means anyway, and to be
aware of this is not to be a selfish hedonist who neglects and abuses
everybody else, but a selfish hedonist who looks for the best way to
satisfy their various desires, and aims for peaceful development with
anyone who aims for the same.

Comfort and discomfort are more important than stronger pleasure and
displeasure, because they give you the strategic information you need,
earlier. Small comforts will build into pleasure over time and small
discomforts into displeasure. I guess I am splitting hairs here but
discomfort is intended to denote the minor, creeping unpleasantness
that usually arrives before any storms of displeasure, although perhaps
not always.

In other words one should focus on comfort because it will warn you of
what you need to know, and will warn you when it starts, rather than
when it's got out of control. The little bad things are usually not
there for a good reason, just something you haven't dealt with yet. The
little good things are often achievable with an unintrusive detour. Of
course balance is everything but comfort can guide you if you pay
attention to how it behaves. Just because it's yours doesn't mean you
understand it, and it gives you more important information than any
other single faculty.

Lastly, comfort is only useful in the first place because it is
attached to other pieces of information floating around inside your
mind. Focussing on feelings will therefore put the rest of ones life in
focus, rather than create a distraction from it.

.
User: "a_friend"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 04 Jul 2006 09:17:52 PM
RyanT wrote:

You may be interested in looking up the concept of "Tit-for-tat"...it's
a rule system used in game theory mathematics. The rules are as
follows:

1. Unless provoked, the agent will always cooperate.
2. If provoked, the agent will retaliate.
3. The agent is quick to forgive.
4. The agent must have a 2/3 chance of competing against the opponent
more than once. (This figure is adjustable.)

Oddly enough this algorythm has proven itself to be consistently
effective in simulation games, and it somewhat explains why animals and
human beings have come to rely on cooperation in order to function in
the world.

While its true that a person could acquire benefits in the short term
by screwing people over, in the long term it becomes much more
beneficial to simply cooperate, as you've said. Virtue is it's own
reward, as they say...when you're younger you sort of laugh at that
statement, but eventually you realize that these deeds do culmilate
into something bigger over longer periods of time. Is it kharma or is
it math? Either way, it supports what you are saying.

Cooperation, however, assumes that you have something I need or want.
It assumes to some degree a reliance on you for X. This is untrue much
of the time. You may want my cooperation, but I don't need yours.
It was interesting to note the dichotomy that you created in the
response -- cooperate or screw one over. How about neither?
.
User: "RyanT"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 04 Jul 2006 10:37:50 PM
Apathy? That would make you an American, I guess. :o
But you are definitely right in saying that there needs to be
"something we need" from each other. You might interpret rule #4 as a
necessity to have some leverage to bargain for their cooperation...the
powerless simply gets eliminated or assimilated unfortunately, just
like in real life. (Indigenous native's that were taken over by
western powers, for instance.)
Keep in mind that these simulations are designed so that the objective
of every player is to simply maximize their own benefit. Compassion
and morals don't really ever come into play, since we're talking about
digitized bits and not people. But even within this ruthless
environment it shows that there are individual benefits to be acquired
from cooperation.
Surprisingly though, there is very little that anyone needs to do to be
beneficial, if you look at things from a societal sense. Even when
reducing everything down to numbers, as long as someone holds a job and
earns their keep, they contribute enough money and productivity into
society that it results in a net positive to the economy.
a_friend wrote:

RyanT wrote:

You may be interested in looking up the concept of "Tit-for-tat"...it's
a rule system used in game theory mathematics. The rules are as
follows:

1. Unless provoked, the agent will always cooperate.
2. If provoked, the agent will retaliate.
3. The agent is quick to forgive.
4. The agent must have a 2/3 chance of competing against the opponent
more than once. (This figure is adjustable.)

Oddly enough this algorythm has proven itself to be consistently
effective in simulation games, and it somewhat explains why animals and
human beings have come to rely on cooperation in order to function in
the world.

While its true that a person could acquire benefits in the short term
by screwing people over, in the long term it becomes much more
beneficial to simply cooperate, as you've said. Virtue is it's own
reward, as they say...when you're younger you sort of laugh at that
statement, but eventually you realize that these deeds do culmilate
into something bigger over longer periods of time. Is it kharma or is
it math? Either way, it supports what you are saying.



Cooperation, however, assumes that you have something I need or want.
It assumes to some degree a reliance on you for X. This is untrue much
of the time. You may want my cooperation, but I don't need yours.

It was interesting to note the dichotomy that you created in the
response -- cooperate or screw one over. How about neither?

.
User: "a_friend"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 05 Jul 2006 09:55:04 AM
RyanT wrote:

Apathy? That would make you an American, I guess. :o

I wasn't sure how you determined that was apathy. And bzzzt, no, I'm
not an American.

But you are definitely right in saying that there needs to be
"something we need" from each other. You might interpret rule #4 as a
necessity to have some leverage to bargain for their cooperation...the
powerless simply gets eliminated or assimilated unfortunately, just
like in real life. (Indigenous native's that were taken over by
western powers, for instance.)

I don't need anything from you. I don't need your cooperation. Now, if
you need something from me, that leaves in a rather unique position. If
what you need from me is also something that I need for myself, then
you are unlikely to get it.
.
User: "RyanT"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 05 Jul 2006 01:37:37 PM
Ideas, though, are infinite in supply. I can give, you can give, and
nothing is lost. That's why markets based on ideas are often the most
creative.
It may be hard to imagine from an individualist perspetive, but many
social theories do emphasize the fact that the benefit of others
usually always result in the benefit of one self through social
benefit. If we are ultimately affective by the social evironment we
live in, then it makes sense to take care of it.
a_friend wrote:

RyanT wrote:

Apathy? That would make you an American, I guess. :o


I wasn't sure how you determined that was apathy. And bzzzt, no, I'm
not an American.

But you are definitely right in saying that there needs to be
"something we need" from each other. You might interpret rule #4 as a
necessity to have some leverage to bargain for their cooperation...the
powerless simply gets eliminated or assimilated unfortunately, just
like in real life. (Indigenous native's that were taken over by
western powers, for instance.)


I don't need anything from you. I don't need your cooperation. Now, if
you need something from me, that leaves in a rather unique position. If
what you need from me is also something that I need for myself, then
you are unlikely to get it.

.
User: "a_friend"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 05 Jul 2006 08:25:45 PM
RyanT wrote:

Ideas, though, are infinite in supply. I can give, you can give, and
nothing is lost. That's why markets based on ideas are often the most
creative.

It may be hard to imagine from an individualist perspetive, but many
social theories do emphasize the fact that the benefit of others
usually always result in the benefit of one self through social
benefit. If we are ultimately affective by the social evironment we
live in, then it makes sense to take care of it.

I'm willing to let people experience the consequences of their actions.
If a large portion of the population, for example, is intent on fossil
fuel, driving cars, etc. then, let them enjoy the repurcussions of
those actions. They didn't need my cooperation to make the choice and
the certainly don't need my cooperation to stop the problem.
.
User: "RyanT"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 05 Jul 2006 10:20:08 PM
The world is too full of problems for any man-made construct like the
government to solve everything anyway. People will learn from their
mistakes in one way or another...sometimes the mistakes learned are
from directly disobeying the law to begin with.
Of course, if one breaks a law that is stupid, that would make them a
positive example, as opposed to a negative one. But if a law works
then I don't really see any reason to remove them. You don't want 20
people being murdered before the serial killer is finally stopped by
the mob -- it would be much more preferrable if the killings did not
happen in the first place. Although it's not perfect, this is how we
do things in civilized society; it works a lot better than places where
the law of the land is mob rule, if you ask me.
a_friend wrote:

RyanT wrote:

Ideas, though, are infinite in supply. I can give, you can give, and
nothing is lost. That's why markets based on ideas are often the most
creative.

It may be hard to imagine from an individualist perspetive, but many
social theories do emphasize the fact that the benefit of others
usually always result in the benefit of one self through social
benefit. If we are ultimately affective by the social evironment we
live in, then it makes sense to take care of it.


I'm willing to let people experience the consequences of their actions.
If a large portion of the population, for example, is intent on fossil
fuel, driving cars, etc. then, let them enjoy the repurcussions of
those actions. They didn't need my cooperation to make the choice and
the certainly don't need my cooperation to stop the problem.

.
User: "a_friend"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 06 Jul 2006 06:33:13 AM
RyanT wrote:

The world is too full of problems for any man-made construct like the
government to solve everything anyway. People will learn from their
mistakes in one way or another...sometimes the mistakes learned are
from directly disobeying the law to begin with.

The world is also a place of incredible opportunity for those willing
to pursue them. The world is also a place of incredible acts. The world
is also a place of incredible knowledge with much to learn. How any
chooses to see the world is their choice.

Of course, if one breaks a law that is stupid, that would make them a
positive example, as opposed to a negative one. But if a law works
then I don't really see any reason to remove them. You don't want 20
people being murdered before the serial killer is finally stopped by
the mob -- it would be much more preferrable if the killings did not
happen in the first place. Although it's not perfect, this is how we
do things in civilized society; it works a lot better than places where
the law of the land is mob rule, if you ask me.

Or, hire the serial killer as part of the armed forces. Those who want
to fight and kill will find ways to do so.
.
User: "RyanT"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 06 Jul 2006 11:36:34 AM
Serial killers generally don't make good soldiers. Ask anybody who's
served in the military -- what the armed forces needs are people with
integrity, and that's hard enough to find amongst normal people.
Especially with today's tactical military problems, the matters of war
are no longer just the simple act of killing everyone. Half of what
the military personnel is doing in Iraq right now is the dreadful task
of distinguishing civilian from enemy combatants, which isn't easy. It
requires the soldier to follow directions and achieve specific
objectives.
a_friend wrote:

RyanT wrote:

The world is too full of problems for any man-made construct like the
government to solve everything anyway. People will learn from their
mistakes in one way or another...sometimes the mistakes learned are
from directly disobeying the law to begin with.


The world is also a place of incredible opportunity for those willing
to pursue them. The world is also a place of incredible acts. The world
is also a place of incredible knowledge with much to learn. How any
chooses to see the world is their choice.

Of course, if one breaks a law that is stupid, that would make them a
positive example, as opposed to a negative one. But if a law works
then I don't really see any reason to remove them. You don't want 20
people being murdered before the serial killer is finally stopped by
the mob -- it would be much more preferrable if the killings did not
happen in the first place. Although it's not perfect, this is how we
do things in civilized society; it works a lot better than places where
the law of the land is mob rule, if you ask me.


Or, hire the serial killer as part of the armed forces. Those who want
to fight and kill will find ways to do so.

.
User: "a_friend"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 06 Jul 2006 04:46:45 PM
RyanT wrote:

Serial killers generally don't make good soldiers. Ask anybody who's
served in the military -- what the armed forces needs are people with
integrity, and that's hard enough to find amongst normal people.

Especially with today's tactical military problems, the matters of war
are no longer just the simple act of killing everyone. Half of what
the military personnel is doing in Iraq right now is the dreadful task
of distinguishing civilian from enemy combatants, which isn't easy. It
requires the soldier to follow directions and achieve specific
objectives.

Sure they do. Tick them off and then drop them in by parachute to enemy
territory. Jeffrey Dahmer could have been given a supply of sedatives,
a few drums for storage and be turned loose on downtown Iraq. And a
whole lot cheaper. Talk about a secret weapon.
He did it here and he was a criminal, if he did it there he would be a
war hero.
.
User: "darwinist"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 06 Jul 2006 09:18:10 PM
a_friend wrote:

RyanT wrote:

Serial killers generally don't make good soldiers. Ask anybody who's
served in the military -- what the armed forces needs are people with
integrity, and that's hard enough to find amongst normal people.

Especially with today's tactical military problems, the matters of war
are no longer just the simple act of killing everyone. Half of what
the military personnel is doing in Iraq right now is the dreadful task
of distinguishing civilian from enemy combatants, which isn't easy. It
requires the soldier to follow directions and achieve specific
objectives.


Sure they do. Tick them off and then drop them in by parachute to enemy
territory. Jeffrey Dahmer could have been given a supply of sedatives,
a few drums for storage and be turned loose on downtown Iraq. And a
whole lot cheaper. Talk about a secret weapon.

He did it here and he was a criminal, if he did it there he would be a
war hero.

Serial killers tend to be psychopaths that use psychological
manipulation, and prey on the weak. I don't think they would make good
politicians or soldiers, because they do not fit into a group, and are
in fact quite weak due to a lack of emotional intelligence, and an
inability to connect with people.
Hitler, for example, was merely a xenophobe and a patriot. They were
common diseases in an uncommon man. He would not have made it as far as
he did if he was a psychopath.
Psycopaths can make fantastic businessmen, however, because cold,
callous calculation and psychological manipulation are considered great
virtues.
.
User: "a_friend"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 06 Jul 2006 09:29:33 PM
darwinist wrote:

a_friend wrote:

RyanT wrote:

Serial killers generally don't make good soldiers. Ask anybody who's
served in the military -- what the armed forces needs are people with
integrity, and that's hard enough to find amongst normal people.

Especially with today's tactical military problems, the matters of war
are no longer just the simple act of killing everyone. Half of what
the military personnel is doing in Iraq right now is the dreadful task
of distinguishing civilian from enemy combatants, which isn't easy. It
requires the soldier to follow directions and achieve specific
objectives.


Sure they do. Tick them off and then drop them in by parachute to enemy
territory. Jeffrey Dahmer could have been given a supply of sedatives,
a few drums for storage and be turned loose on downtown Iraq. And a
whole lot cheaper. Talk about a secret weapon.

He did it here and he was a criminal, if he did it there he would be a
war hero.


Serial killers tend to be psychopaths that use psychological
manipulation, and prey on the weak. I don't think they would make good
politicians or soldiers, because they do not fit into a group, and are
in fact quite weak due to a lack of emotional intelligence, and an
inability to connect with people.

Hitler, for example, was merely a xenophobe and a patriot. They were
common diseases in an uncommon man. He would not have made it as far as
he did if he was a psychopath.

Psycopaths can make fantastic businessmen, however, because cold,
callous calculation and psychological manipulation are considered great
virtues.

I would run an army differently. If the objective is to destroy an
enemy then a serial killer will do the job quite nicely. They don't
need to socialize with anyone. Keep them fed and ready. You and I might
feel rewarded for taking a holiday. The serial killer's treat would the
opportunity to kill. Intelligence isn't really a requirement, although
they do seem to be quite adept at killing. And the notion of power is
useless. Where there is an army and a navy, I would have the
psychopaths and the sociopaths. A sociopath can kill without remorse. A
soldier will feel guilt as a result of having a conscience. Military
training is the attempt to override the conscience and turn someone
into a "trained" killer. Sociopaths are natural born soliders. Just
needing a little guidance on who they can kill.
Just an idea...
.
User: "darwinist"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 06 Jul 2006 11:23:27 PM
a_friend wrote:

darwinist wrote:

a_friend wrote:

RyanT wrote:

Serial killers generally don't make good soldiers. Ask anybody who's
served in the military -- what the armed forces needs are people with
integrity, and that's hard enough to find amongst normal people.

Especially with today's tactical military problems, the matters of war
are no longer just the simple act of killing everyone. Half of what
the military personnel is doing in Iraq right now is the dreadful task
of distinguishing civilian from enemy combatants, which isn't easy. It
requires the soldier to follow directions and achieve specific
objectives.


Sure they do. Tick them off and then drop them in by parachute to enemy
territory. Jeffrey Dahmer could have been given a supply of sedatives,
a few drums for storage and be turned loose on downtown Iraq. And a
whole lot cheaper. Talk about a secret weapon.

He did it here and he was a criminal, if he did it there he would be a
war hero.


Serial killers tend to be psychopaths that use psychological
manipulation, and prey on the weak. I don't think they would make good
politicians or soldiers, because they do not fit into a group, and are
in fact quite weak due to a lack of emotional intelligence, and an
inability to connect with people.

Hitler, for example, was merely a xenophobe and a patriot. They were
common diseases in an uncommon man. He would not have made it as far as
he did if he was a psychopath.

Psycopaths can make fantastic businessmen, however, because cold,
callous calculation and psychological manipulation are considered great
virtues.


I would run an army differently. If the objective is to destroy an
enemy then a serial killer will do the job quite nicely. They don't
need to socialize with anyone.

What about teamwork? Sometimes that's part of the strategy and for good
reason.

Keep them fed and ready. You and I might
feel rewarded for taking a holiday. The serial killer's treat would the
opportunity to kill. Intelligence isn't really a requirement, although
they do seem to be quite adept at killing. And the notion of power is
useless. Where there is an army and a navy, I would have the
psychopaths and the sociopaths. A sociopath can kill without remorse. A
soldier will feel guilt as a result of having a conscience. Military
training is the attempt to override the conscience and turn someone
into a "trained" killer.

A very rare and specific kind of trained killer: a loyal one.

Sociopaths are natural born soliders. Just
needing a little guidance on who they can kill.

Just an idea...

.
User: "a_friend"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 06 Jul 2006 11:30:33 PM
darwinist wrote:

a_friend wrote:

darwinist wrote:

a_friend wrote:

RyanT wrote:

Serial killers generally don't make good soldiers. Ask anybody who's
served in the military -- what the armed forces needs are people with
integrity, and that's hard enough to find amongst normal people.

Especially with today's tactical military problems, the matters of war
are no longer just the simple act of killing everyone. Half of what
the military personnel is doing in Iraq right now is the dreadful task
of distinguishing civilian from enemy combatants, which isn't easy. It
requires the soldier to follow directions and achieve specific
objectives.


Sure they do. Tick them off and then drop them in by parachute to enemy
territory. Jeffrey Dahmer could have been given a supply of sedatives,
a few drums for storage and be turned loose on downtown Iraq. And a
whole lot cheaper. Talk about a secret weapon.

He did it here and he was a criminal, if he did it there he would be a
war hero.


Serial killers tend to be psychopaths that use psychological
manipulation, and prey on the weak. I don't think they would make good
politicians or soldiers, because they do not fit into a group, and are
in fact quite weak due to a lack of emotional intelligence, and an
inability to connect with people.

Hitler, for example, was merely a xenophobe and a patriot. They were
common diseases in an uncommon man. He would not have made it as far as
he did if he was a psychopath.

Psycopaths can make fantastic businessmen, however, because cold,
callous calculation and psychological manipulation are considered great
virtues.


I would run an army differently. If the objective is to destroy an
enemy then a serial killer will do the job quite nicely. They don't
need to socialize with anyone.


What about teamwork? Sometimes that's part of the strategy and for good
reason.

To what end? If the goal, or objective is to defeat the enemy then, I
have a solution to the problem. Why train a civilian to kill and
override their conscience when sociopaths and psychopaths already
exist.

Keep them fed and ready. You and I might
feel rewarded for taking a holiday. The serial killer's treat would the
opportunity to kill. Intelligence isn't really a requirement, although
they do seem to be quite adept at killing. And the notion of power is
useless. Where there is an army and a navy, I would have the
psychopaths and the sociopaths. A sociopath can kill without remorse. A
soldier will feel guilt as a result of having a conscience. Military
training is the attempt to override the conscience and turn someone
into a "trained" killer.


A very rare and specific kind of trained killer: a loyal one.

Loyalty, who needs it. The sociopath and psychopath can live inside
enemy territory. If they travel back to the homeland then, they face
incarceration. We could store them on island, let's call it New York.
And when needed they can be released into enemy territory.
We could spend billions building and lobbing bombs at someone, or pay
the food and housing for a group of sociopaths and psychopaths and then
turn them loose where needed.
The objective of war is to win, right? Or is it to lose or have a
stalemate?

Sociopaths are natural born soliders. Just
needing a little guidance on who they can kill.

Just an idea...

.
User: "darwinist"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 06 Jul 2006 11:40:33 PM
a_friend wrote:
[...]

I would run an army differently. If the objective is to destroy an
enemy then a serial killer will do the job quite nicely. They don't
need to socialize with anyone.


What about teamwork? Sometimes that's part of the strategy and for good
reason.


To what end? If the goal, or objective is to defeat the enemy then, I
have a solution to the problem. Why train a civilian to kill and
override their conscience when sociopaths and psychopaths already
exist.

Because defeating the enemy may be harder than being comfortable with
the idea of their death.

Keep them fed and ready. You and I might
feel rewarded for taking a holiday. The serial killer's treat would the
opportunity to kill. Intelligence isn't really a requirement, although
they do seem to be quite adept at killing. And the notion of power is
useless. Where there is an army and a navy, I would have the
psychopaths and the sociopaths. A sociopath can kill without remorse. A
soldier will feel guilt as a result of having a conscience. Military
training is the attempt to override the conscience and turn someone
into a "trained" killer.


A very rare and specific kind of trained killer: a loyal one.


Loyalty, who needs it. The sociopath and psychopath can live inside
enemy territory. If they travel back to the homeland then, they face
incarceration. We could store them on island, let's call it New York.
And when needed they can be released into enemy territory.

Then what do they do?

We could spend billions building and lobbing bombs at someone, or pay
the food and housing for a group of sociopaths and psychopaths and then
turn them loose where needed.

The objective of war is to win, right? Or is it to lose or have a
stalemate?

What if the enemy had bombs?

Sociopaths are natural born soliders. Just
needing a little guidance on who they can kill.

Just an idea...

.
User: "a_friend"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 07 Jul 2006 08:11:49 PM
darwinist wrote:

a_friend wrote:
[...]

I would run an army differently. If the objective is to destroy an
enemy then a serial killer will do the job quite nicely. They don't
need to socialize with anyone.


What about teamwork? Sometimes that's part of the strategy and for good
reason.


To what end? If the goal, or objective is to defeat the enemy then, I
have a solution to the problem. Why train a civilian to kill and
override their conscience when sociopaths and psychopaths already
exist.


Because defeating the enemy may be harder than being comfortable with
the idea of their death.

Think outside of the box. 1,000 psychopaths and sociopaths released
into enemy territory is likely to create panick and terror in the
enemy. As the number of deaths/murders accumulate, it is well likely
that their focus would change from combattant to an internal matter
requiring attention. Dropping female sociopaths (even masquerading as
prostitutes) into an area with male soldiers would quickly and
efficiently reduce the size of the enemy's army.

Keep them fed and ready. You and I might
feel rewarded for taking a holiday. The serial killer's treat would the
opportunity to kill. Intelligence isn't really a requirement, although
they do seem to be quite adept at killing. And the notion of power is
useless. Where there is an army and a navy, I would have the
psychopaths and the sociopaths. A sociopath can kill without remorse. A
soldier will feel guilt as a result of having a conscience. Military
training is the attempt to override the conscience and turn someone
into a "trained" killer.


A very rare and specific kind of trained killer: a loyal one.


Loyalty, who needs it. The sociopath and psychopath can live inside
enemy territory. If they travel back to the homeland then, they face
incarceration. We could store them on island, let's call it New York.
And when needed they can be released into enemy territory.


Then what do they do?

Return them to the island with housing and good food until they next
time there are need. One man's prison is another paradise. You could
spend billions over years fighting a Vietnam or utilize the psychopaths
and sociopaths within the society.

We could spend billions building and lobbing bombs at someone, or pay
the food and housing for a group of sociopaths and psychopaths and then
turn them loose where needed.

The objective of war is to win, right? Or is it to lose or have a
stalemate?


What if the enemy had bombs?

Oh well. A few bombs might hit a few targets. But an army of psycho and
sociopaths can already be at work behind enemy lines long before that
point. Desperate times call for creative measures.
I'd rather have 1000 unorganized sociopaths behind enemy lines than
10,000 trained and loyal soldiers who have to over ride moral and
ethical considerations to fight a war.

Sociopaths are natural born soliders. Just
needing a little guidance on who they can kill.

Just an idea...

.
User: "RyanT"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 07 Jul 2006 11:52:52 PM
Yes, but your forgetting the context of the Iraq war here -- if we
wanted to kill indescriminantly, we would've just dropped cluster bombs
everywhere. Iraq is a difficult situation because the soldiers are
required to make distiguishments between innocent civilians and enemy
combatants.
And serial killers are not very good at soldiering to begin with --
they prey on weak, unsuspecting targets within domestic environments.
I'd suspect that the majority of them would just shrivel up and die if
put into any serious combat situation.
a_friend wrote:

darwinist wrote:

a_friend wrote:
[...]

I would run an army differently. If the objective is to destroy an
enemy then a serial killer will do the job quite nicely. They don't
need to socialize with anyone.


What about teamwork? Sometimes that's part of the strategy and for good
reason.


To what end? If the goal, or objective is to defeat the enemy then, I
have a solution to the problem. Why train a civilian to kill and
override their conscience when sociopaths and psychopaths already
exist.


Because defeating the enemy may be harder than being comfortable with
the idea of their death.


Think outside of the box. 1,000 psychopaths and sociopaths released
into enemy territory is likely to create panick and terror in the
enemy. As the number of deaths/murders accumulate, it is well likely
that their focus would change from combattant to an internal matter
requiring attention. Dropping female sociopaths (even masquerading as
prostitutes) into an area with male soldiers would quickly and
efficiently reduce the size of the enemy's army.

Keep them fed and ready. You and I might
feel rewarded for taking a holiday. The serial killer's treat would the
opportunity to kill. Intelligence isn't really a requirement, although
they do seem to be quite adept at killing. And the notion of power is
useless. Where there is an army and a navy, I would have the
psychopaths and the sociopaths. A sociopath can kill without remorse. A
soldier will feel guilt as a result of having a conscience. Military
training is the attempt to override the conscience and turn someone
into a "trained" killer.


A very rare and specific kind of trained killer: a loyal one.


Loyalty, who needs it. The sociopath and psychopath can live inside
enemy territory. If they travel back to the homeland then, they face
incarceration. We could store them on island, let's call it New York.
And when needed they can be released into enemy territory.


Then what do they do?


Return them to the island with housing and good food until they next
time there are need. One man's prison is another paradise. You could
spend billions over years fighting a Vietnam or utilize the psychopaths
and sociopaths within the society.

We could spend billions building and lobbing bombs at someone, or pay
the food and housing for a group of sociopaths and psychopaths and then
turn them loose where needed.

The objective of war is to win, right? Or is it to lose or have a
stalemate?


What if the enemy had bombs?


Oh well. A few bombs might hit a few targets. But an army of psycho and
sociopaths can already be at work behind enemy lines long before that
point. Desperate times call for creative measures.

I'd rather have 1000 unorganized sociopaths behind enemy lines than
10,000 trained and loyal soldiers who have to over ride moral and
ethical considerations to fight a war.

Sociopaths are natural born soliders. Just
needing a little guidance on who they can kill.

Just an idea...

.
User: "a_friend"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 08 Jul 2006 09:58:50 AM
RyanT wrote:

Yes, but your forgetting the context of the Iraq war here -- if we
wanted to kill indescriminantly, we would've just dropped cluster bombs
everywhere. Iraq is a difficult situation because the soldiers are
required to make distiguishments between innocent civilians and enemy
combatants.

And serial killers are not very good at soldiering to begin with --
they prey on weak, unsuspecting targets within domestic environments.
I'd suspect that the majority of them would just shrivel up and die if
put into any serious combat situation.

Combat is for fools. Armies are expensive to create, expensive to
maintain and the human and social costs of training citizens to over
ride their ethical and moral codes is quite difficult. After the war,
this leads to difficulties with re-integration into family and
community life. The health and mental health costs are enormous.
Nothing worse than millions of veterans with fried neural circuits,
PTSD, missing limbs, unemployed, broken families, or killed in service.
The prescriptions costs of sedating veterans and dealing with their
mental health is a huge cost.
Giving sociopaths a few targets in exchange for food, housing, a few
perks and the opportunity not to be executed or housed in prisons is
likely to produce results. Anyone gung-ho on signing up is probably in
this category anyway.
.
User: "rugged individuals"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 12 Jul 2006 01:56:43 AM
"a_friend" <a_f_r_i_e_n_d@hotmail.com> wrote

...the human and social costs of training citizens to over
ride their ethical and moral codes is quite difficult. After the war,
this leads to difficulties with re-integration into family and
community life. The health and mental health costs are enormous.
Nothing worse than millions of veterans with fried neural circuits,
PTSD, missing limbs, unemployed, broken families, or killed in service.
The prescriptions costs of sedating veterans and dealing with their
mental health is a huge cost.

You overgeneralize. Study -- for example -- the soldiers (especially the
leading generals) of the American Civil War (1861-1865). Lee, Grant,
Longstreet, Sherman, Hancock, Meade etc.etc.etc. demonstrate all the
exemplary character traits we naturally look up to, and especially
integrity.
Every trained soldier I've ever encountered has come away from his
experiences with enhancements not deficits to character.
I've seen so much benefit from military training and service, that I think
it would be beneficial for any nation to adopt MANDATORY SERVICE (of at
least two years duration) for ALL secondary school graduates.

Giving sociopaths a few targets in exchange for food, housing, a few
perks and the opportunity not to be executed or housed in prisons is
likely to produce results. Anyone gung-ho on signing up is probably in
this category anyway.

Isn't that kinda what we did with bin Laden, the Taliban; even Saddam
Hussein -- in fact, all the puppets heading the puppet regimes. The problem
is that once you turn them on, you can't turn the lunatics off.
.
User: "Harry F. Leopold"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 12 Jul 2006 06:01:04 AM
On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 01:56:43 -0500, rugged individuals wrote
(in article <G8-dne0lScS3ACnZnZ2dnUVZ_oudnZ2d@comcast.com>):
snip

I've seen so much benefit from military training and service, that I think
it would be beneficial for any nation to adopt MANDATORY SERVICE (of at least
two years duration) for ALL secondary school graduates.

Since you think this is such a great idea, I think you should have a
mandatory military service of at least 25 years. Hey, what was good enough
for the Roman Empire should be good enough for you, right?
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)
³Damn! I never expected to see this place be armpit-deep in wombats. Kinda
cute as long as you don't move, or breath. ;-)³
.

User: "a_friend"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 12 Jul 2006 09:20:09 AM
rugged individuals wrote:

"a_friend" <a_f_r_i_e_n_d@hotmail.com> wrote

...the human and social costs of training citizens to over
ride their ethical and moral codes is quite difficult. After the war,
this leads to difficulties with re-integration into family and
community life. The health and mental health costs are enormous.
Nothing worse than millions of veterans with fried neural circuits,
PTSD, missing limbs, unemployed, broken families, or killed in service.
The prescriptions costs of sedating veterans and dealing with their
mental health is a huge cost.


You overgeneralize. Study -- for example -- the soldiers (especially the
leading generals) of the American Civil War (1861-1865). Lee, Grant,
Longstreet, Sherman, Hancock, Meade etc.etc.etc. demonstrate all the
exemplary character traits we naturally look up to, and especially
integrity.
Every trained soldier I've ever encountered has come away from his
experiences with enhancements not deficits to character.
I've seen so much benefit from military training and service, that I think
it would be beneficial for any nation to adopt MANDATORY SERVICE (of at
least two years duration) for ALL secondary school graduates.

Giving sociopaths a few targets in exchange for food, housing, a few
perks and the opportunity not to be executed or housed in prisons is
likely to produce results. Anyone gung-ho on signing up is probably in
this category anyway.


Isn't that kinda what we did with bin Laden, the Taliban; even Saddam
Hussein -- in fact, all the puppets heading the puppet regimes. The problem
is that once you turn them on, you can't turn the lunatics off.

Not only do those christian like their aggression and war, now they
want EVERYONE doing it. We could have a torture chamber in every city
for non-believers and heretics.
Meds, from my understanding, do help to reduce the aggression rugged,
consider them.
.
User: "rugged individuals"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 13 Jul 2006 01:07:51 AM
"a_friend" <a_f_r_i_e_n_d@hotmail.com> wrote

Meds, from my understanding, do help to reduce the aggression rugged,
consider them.

Just curious, friend... You're basically value neutral. You're adept at
arguing both sides depending on circumstances. You are not an absolutist
about anything. What's wrong with aggression? It must have some value. It
all depends on how it's used, right? Aggression against others is generally
not a good thing. But aggressively pursuing a noble goal, or ideal? That's
energy well spent, right?
Anyway, we digress. Mandatory national service for all would be a great
leveler of society. The wishy-washy proud pampered kids would develop
character and some humility. The undervalued, outcast, underprivileged kids
would develop character and some pride.
All would develop in service to something greater than themselves.
The anarchists and iconoclasts would have an immensely more difficult task
trying to dismantle society when all have had a part in building and
maintaining it.
I read an editorial the other day (I think from Investor's Business Daily)
to the effect: It's been said, "America is the only nation in history built
on an ideal." That is why we are the most patriotic nation on earth. We
aren't devoted to a language, or a soccer team, or a cuisine. We have a
creed that unites us.
We all could benefit from service to a creed of ideals; made mandatory so
that we're sure everyone gets it, and that no one is left behind in
purposelessness or mischief. "Duty, honor, country"; bravehearts in all. I
think it would be a boon to the economies as well, because wasteful spending
on programs to help non-productive "screw-ups" would necessarily diminish
and fade away.
.
User: "a_friend"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 13 Jul 2006 09:15:49 PM
rugged individuals wrote:

"a_friend" <a_f_r_i_e_n_d@hotmail.com> wrote

Meds, from my understanding, do help to reduce the aggression rugged,
consider them.

Just curious, friend... You're basically value neutral. You're adept at
arguing both sides depending on circumstances. You are not an absolutist
about anything. What's wrong with aggression? It must have some value. It
all depends on how it's used, right? Aggression against others is generally
not a good thing. But aggressively pursuing a noble goal, or ideal? That's
energy well spent, right?

Anyway, we digress. Mandatory national service for all would be a great
leveler of society. The wishy-washy proud pampered kids would develop
character and some humility. The undervalued, outcast, underprivileged kids
would develop character and some pride.
All would develop in service to something greater than themselves.
The anarchists and iconoclasts would have an immensely more difficult task
trying to dismantle society when all have had a part in building and
maintaining it.
I read an editorial the other day (I think from Investor's Business Daily)
to the effect: It's been said, "America is the only nation in history built
on an ideal." That is why we are the most patriotic nation on earth. We
aren't devoted to a language, or a soccer team, or a cuisine. We have a
creed that unites us.

We all could benefit from service to a creed of ideals; made mandatory so
that we're sure everyone gets it, and that no one is left behind in
purposelessness or mischief. "Duty, honor, country"; bravehearts in all. I
think it would be a boon to the economies as well, because wasteful spending
on programs to help non-productive "screw-ups" would necessarily diminish
and fade away.

Ah, yes. The religious training their legions of soldiers to hunt down
heretics and non-believers. Kill each other off if you must. The rest
of us who remain will work towards goals other than than owning pieces
of soil, the substances that can be found under them, or which
hallucination that they kneel or pray to on a regular basis. War! The
work project of the religious.
.
User: "rugged individuals"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 14 Jul 2006 01:09:35 AM
"a_friend" <a_f_r_i_e_n_d@hotmail.com> wrote


Ah, yes. The religious training their legions of soldiers to hunt down
heretics and non-believers. Kill each other off if you must. The rest
of us who remain will work towards goals other than than owning pieces
of soil, the substances that can be found under them, or which
hallucination that they kneel or pray to on a regular basis. War! The
work project of the religious.

You're SO negative. Always seeing problems instead of possibilities.
I don't know if it's a tool where you come from; but here in the good 'ol
USofA judges have developed a penchant for meting out justice by issuing
sentences of "community service" for those who have trampled on the
community by violation of the law.
The concept is to instill a sense of identity with and duty to the community
via the service imposed so as to preclude any more of the alienation that
theoretically underlay the transgression.
That's the concept, in a way, of mandatory service. It's done via an
organization such as the military because the discipline required for
success is best instilled via a hierarchical organization and the
organization (military) already exists -- and because you atheists won't let
us mix church and government activity.
And why does shooting enter into it? We'll just be creating proud Yanks and
proud Brits and proud Frenchmen (although they don't need much coaching).
There's no requirement of killing to enhance the sense of honor.
And, regarding "War! The work project of the religious.":
Excluding Islamo-fascism -- which admittedly is a big causal factor in war
today -- unless you're dealing with the middle ages, aren't most wars
prosecuted by secular states for secular interests? Maybe they do it
"religiously", but it's not done for religion.
So that sentence of yours was cheap fictional drama.
And, regarding "...The rest of us who remain will work towards goals other
than than owning pieces of soil, the substances that can be found under
them..."
So, you want no religion, and you want no country. So, you want nothing; you
want a utopia, which is "nowhere". And what will you remaining folks do when
some of you get a little acquisitive about some of that land and what lies
beneath it? You (in other threads) want everyone who has a child to support
his child without dependency or demand upon the resources of others. But
that support requires making a claim to some of those resources which no one
in "nowhere" can claim. (So, without drawing the entire picture for you,
things go down hill fast without help from religion or nationality.) Read
the history of the Plymouth colony. Ownership is a prerequisite of
abundance.
So forget equality of ownership. If you're going to at least preserve
equality of rights, you guys "who remain" are going to have to forsake
communism, and adopt private enterprise (capitalism) at some point --
probably early on.
And, regarding "...The rest of us who remain will work towards goals other
than than..."
Like what? We're talking about survival, not Lollapalooza.
.
User: "a_friend"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 14 Jul 2006 07:05:57 AM
rugged individuals wrote:

"a_friend" <a_f_r_i_e_n_d@hotmail.com> wrote


Ah, yes. The religious training their legions of soldiers to hunt down
heretics and non-believers. Kill each other off if you must. The rest
of us who remain will work towards goals other than than owning pieces
of soil, the substances that can be found under them, or which
hallucination that they kneel or pray to on a regular basis. War! The
work project of the religious.


You're SO negative. Always seeing problems instead of possibilities.

[snip]

And, regarding "...The rest of us who remain will work towards goals other
than than..."
Like what? We're talking about survival, not Lollapalooza.

Negative? LOL. If you insist. As to possibilities, yes, I look forward
to the day when you can receive treatment and your hallucinations end.
It will be a pleasure to welcome you back then.
.
User: "rugged individuals"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 14 Jul 2006 07:47:51 PM

rugged individuals wrote:

And, regarding "...The rest of us who remain will work towards goals
other than..."
Like what? We're talking about survival, not Lollapalooza.


"a_friend" <a_f_r_i_e_n_d@hotmail.com> wrote

Negative? LOL. If you insist.

What's negative about inviting you to confront the realities of your own
vision of the future? In your opinion I won't be there (having been killed
off in the wars of religion and property) so I'm not even in the picture;
medication won't be necessary.
That leaves the issue of how you latter day saints are going to manage your
everyday affairs in a way that preserves your "nowhere-ian" ideals and
assures your ability to survive. If 1) you want folks to provide for their
own kids, and 2) you won't permit ownership of resources, how do you avoid
the results every prior nowhere-ian experiment has generated?
I'm curious as to how you imagine (hallucinate) you'll be able to pull it
off with the rest of those "who remain". Since you don't think my kind will
be there (because of our madness) you could at least make us envy you for
what has never been and what we'll never see or have. Do tell what it will
be like.
.
User: "a_friend"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 14 Jul 2006 08:39:28 PM
rugged individuals wrote:

rugged individuals wrote:

And, regarding "...The rest of us who remain will work towards goals
other than..."
Like what? We're talking about survival, not Lollapalooza.


"a_friend" <a_f_r_i_e_n_d@hotmail.com> wrote

Negative? LOL. If you insist.



What's negative about inviting you to confront the realities of your own
vision of the future? In your opinion I won't be there (having been killed
off in the wars of religion and property) so I'm not even in the picture;
medication won't be necessary.
That leaves the issue of how you latter day saints are going to manage your
everyday affairs in a way that preserves your "nowhere-ian" ideals and
assures your ability to survive. If 1) you want folks to provide for their
own kids, and 2) you won't permit ownership of resources, how do you avoid
the results every prior nowhere-ian experiment has generated?

I'm curious as to how you imagine (hallucinate) you'll be able to pull it
off with the rest of those "who remain". Since you don't think my kind will
be there (because of our madness) you could at least make us envy you for
what has never been and what we'll never see or have. Do tell what it will
be like.

Nice try, rugged. There is a world of difference in the ability to
hypothesize as a cognitive exercise versus claiming the existence of a
being which is invisible. But continue to speak with your
hallucination. However, if you haven't noticed, I really have little
interest in discussing anything with you beyond the presence of your
mental illness and your reluctance to seek treatment.
.
User: "rugged individuals"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 16 Jul 2006 03:04:46 AM
"a_friend" <a_f_r_i_e_n_d@hotmail.com> wrote

Nice try, rugged. There is a world of difference in the ability to
hypothesize as a cognitive exercise versus claiming the existence of a
being which is invisible. But continue to speak with your
hallucination. However, if you haven't noticed, I really have little
interest in discussing anything with you beyond the presence of your
mental illness and your reluctance to seek treatment.

A meaningless jumble of words conveying a half-baked
value judgement from a bigot. (This succinct style really is easy.)
As easy as that was, I do have to expand just a little:
You won't (can't) answer my honest interrogatives. Why?
If you aren't a teacher, you're a propagandist. Your usefulness to society
is considerably diminished thereby.
"Truth does not evolve. Error must evolve."
You snipe with broad-brush assertions of your "nowhere-ian" vision, then
cover those illusions by attributing delusionary thought to those who call
you on your phony views.
In contrat to you (skippin', bobbin', divin', weavin',) I have not moved
from the "rock" I've been standing on from the beginning.
Romans 8:31 "What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who
is against us?"
.
User: "a_friend"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 16 Jul 2006 11:07:22 AM
rugged individuals wrote:

"a_friend" <a_f_r_i_e_n_d@hotmail.com> wrote

Nice try, rugged. There is a world of difference in the ability to
hypothesize as a cognitive exercise versus claiming the existence of a
being which is invisible. But continue to speak with your
hallucination. However, if you haven't noticed, I really have little
interest in discussing anything with you beyond the presence of your
mental illness and your reluctance to seek treatment.


A meaningless jumble of words conveying a half-baked
value judgement from a bigot. (This succinct style really is easy.)


As easy as that was, I do have to expand just a little:

You won't (can't) answer my honest interrogatives. Why?
If you aren't a teacher, you're a propagandist. Your usefulness to society
is considerably diminished thereby.

You speak on behalf of society now? Delusions of grandeur?
Sadly for you, my value to society isn't determined by you. Although
the religious would be sure to institute their inquisitions for heretic
and non-believers. Mental illness is a terrible thing to watch.
Hallucinate as we do, or suffer at the stake with fire -- mental illnes
by choice.
.
User: "a_friend"

Title: Re: How to Use Comfort as an Ethical Metric 17 Jul 2006 07:25:01 PM
rugged individuals wrote:

Again you demonstrate an inability to follow an argument. Are you actually a
thinking human being, or are you just a machine in some university computer
lab trying to pass the Turing test?

Christian you said? One minute you love me, the next...

I wrote:

If you aren't a teacher, you're a propagandist. Your usefulness to
society
is considerably diminished thereby.


(That is a truism, based on the antecedent discussions between us. If you
can't expand and elaborate upon your arguments, you are just reciting
mantras of YOUR belief system. If you can't address challenges to your
beliefs, you should reexamine them. As a situational ethicist with no
absolute positions on anything, that shouldn't be difficult for you to do.)

Of course, I can respond. I choose to limit my engagement with those
who are clearly mentally ill as demonstrated by their comfort and pride
in their hallucinations. But thanks for the invitation.
I've clearly indicated that I only intended to engage you
superficially, and I see that you are having difficulty with my "No."
The remainder of you post was so *christian* that I saved it for
posterity. It was so jesus-like of you.
.






























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