| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"words of truth" |
| Date: |
20 Nov 2005 11:33:52 PM |
| Object: |
How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
Without God
Saturday, August 6, 2005
http://www.courierpostonline.com
Won't it be wonderful when we finally get God out of our culture? For
more than two centuries, we have been frustrated in our desire to do as
we please without any interference. Soon, we will enjoy a whole new set
of rules more to our liking.
Kids can have two mommies or two daddies or more. Teenagers can have
free sex and, thanks to the taxpayers, they won't be burdened with any
responsibility. Nor should they fret about a mistake, because abortion
will bring relief. Parents need not be informed. Coming generations
won't be hamstrung with the old-fashioned ideas our nation was founded
on because no one will be left to teach them.
And narcotics will be available with no concern about shortages because
it will have become such a lucrative business that no effort is made to
stop it. Credit cards will permit anyone to indulge without restraint
in self-gratification. When all credit is exhausted, the loss will
become someone else's problem.
Not to be overlooked will be the absence of sin. With the new system,
nothing will be "wrong." A politically correct society will offer the
opportunity to do as we please with impunity. So life in a nation
without God will be truly wonderful. However, there will be just one
little problem. Since eventually each one of us will die and science
hasn't found a solution to that, what then?
All of a sudden, we will come to the question of what happens after
death. Reaching this point makes a difference that cannot be avoided.
All of the "freedom" of the new system will culminate in an emptiness
for which there will be only one answer. In the final analysis, God's
will will prevail after all. Obedience to God is the only answer. And
the eternal life he offers and makes available to all who believe and
accept Christ, will provide more happiness than this world ever dreamed
of.
RALPH E. REHN Cherry Hill
.
|
|
| User: "thomas p" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
29 Nov 2005 09:49:18 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:19:29 -0500, Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:45:52 +0100, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> in alt.abortion with message-id
<k6cmo19rv3m2go02unq52074d0pgvip8q6@4ax.com> wrote:
The economic system established in the Soviet was based on the ideas
of Marx, Engles and Lenin. It was not 100% faithful to any of them,
but, then again, their written opinions are not holy script. As it
turned out the ideals claimed were, to a large degree, corrupted in
the service of, first of all, individual tyrants and, especially at
the end, a self-serving bureaucracy. In my opinion it could not have
worked under any circumstances, but an actual attempt was made to
transform the ideal into reality.
Actually it does work quite well on a very small scale and primitive
level. If a simple culture is involved and only a few people working
together and pooling available resources for the common good can be
very successful.
The American Indians did it, as did Israel with their Kibbutz. It
just will not work for an evolved and complex economy and political
structure.
In other words it will not work.
Not for anything beyond a small and close knit society. Human
psychological factors quickly distort the pure economics. Politics is
thus born.
The problem is in comparing different systems that are described by
the same word. Precisely because of human nature, the economic system
advocated by Marx cannot work
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Attila" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
29 Nov 2005 03:19:40 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:49:18 +0100, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> in alt.abortion with message-id
<sqtoo1hgbc2lgif1c8upsv57coi5dc8rdq@4ax.com> wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:19:29 -0500, Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:45:52 +0100, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> in alt.abortion with message-id
<k6cmo19rv3m2go02unq52074d0pgvip8q6@4ax.com> wrote:
The economic system established in the Soviet was based on the ideas
of Marx, Engles and Lenin. It was not 100% faithful to any of them,
but, then again, their written opinions are not holy script. As it
turned out the ideals claimed were, to a large degree, corrupted in
the service of, first of all, individual tyrants and, especially at
the end, a self-serving bureaucracy. In my opinion it could not have
worked under any circumstances, but an actual attempt was made to
transform the ideal into reality.
Actually it does work quite well on a very small scale and primitive
level. If a simple culture is involved and only a few people working
together and pooling available resources for the common good can be
very successful.
The American Indians did it, as did Israel with their Kibbutz. It
just will not work for an evolved and complex economy and political
structure.
In other words it will not work.
Not for anything beyond a small and close knit society. Human
psychological factors quickly distort the pure economics. Politics is
thus born.
The problem is in comparing different systems that are described by
the same word. Precisely because of human nature, the economic system
advocated by Marx cannot work
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ray Fischer" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
29 Nov 2005 11:26:37 PM |
|
|
Attila <Attila> wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:49:18 +0100, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> in alt.abortion with message-id
<sqtoo1hgbc2lgif1c8upsv57coi5dc8rdq@4ax.com> wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:19:29 -0500, Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:45:52 +0100, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> in alt.abortion with message-id
<k6cmo19rv3m2go02unq52074d0pgvip8q6@4ax.com> wrote:
The economic system established in the Soviet was based on the ideas
of Marx, Engles and Lenin. It was not 100% faithful to any of them,
but, then again, their written opinions are not holy script. As it
turned out the ideals claimed were, to a large degree, corrupted in
the service of, first of all, individual tyrants and, especially at
the end, a self-serving bureaucracy. In my opinion it could not have
worked under any circumstances, but an actual attempt was made to
transform the ideal into reality.
Actually it does work quite well on a very small scale and primitive
level. If a simple culture is involved and only a few people working
together and pooling available resources for the common good can be
very successful.
The American Indians did it, as did Israel with their Kibbutz. It
just will not work for an evolved and complex economy and political
structure.
In other words it will not work.
Not for anything beyond a small and close knit society. Human
psychological factors quickly distort the pure economics. Politics is
thus born.
The problem is in comparing different systems that are described by
the same word. Precisely because of human nature, the economic system
advocated by Marx cannot work
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
Robber-baron capitalism of the turn of the 19th century was a failure.
Tens of millions of people lived in poverty, many died, and the only
ones who benefitted were the extremely wealthy few.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
|
|
|
| User: "Attila" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
30 Nov 2005 08:18:17 AM |
|
|
On 29 Nov 2005 21:26:37 -0800, (Ray Fischer)
in alt.abortion with message-id <dmjd6d$8t4$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
Robber-baron capitalism of the turn of the 19th century was a failure.
Tens of millions of people lived in poverty, many died, and the only
ones who benefitted were the extremely wealthy few.
It was a failure in some ways. At the same time it created the
industrial and transportation base that supports our current economy.
If you look at the living conditions that existed under other systems
and in other countries you will see that the conditions in the US were
bad by the standards of today but not by the standards that existed at
the time.
No system is perfect, and every viable system changes and evolves as
conditions and circumstances warrant.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ray Fischer" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
01 Dec 2005 12:08:45 AM |
|
|
Attila <Attila> wrote:
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer)
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
Robber-baron capitalism of the turn of the 19th century was a failure.
Tens of millions of people lived in poverty, many died, and the only
ones who benefitted were the extremely wealthy few.
It was a failure in some ways.
In every important way it was a failure.
At the same time it created the
industrial and transportation base that supports our current economy.
And killed millions of people as a result. Dictatorship could have
produced the same outcome.
If you look at the living conditions that existed under other systems
and in other countries you will see that the conditions in the US were
bad by the standards of today but not by the standards that existed at
the time.
Which doesn't mean much since the US wasn't the only country to try
that experiment. The number of nations left that still use pure
capitalism is very few, and none are of any consequence.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
|
|
|
| User: "Attila" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
01 Dec 2005 08:44:27 AM |
|
|
On 30 Nov 2005 22:08:45 -0800, (Ray Fischer)
in alt.abortion with message-id <dmm41d$3t0$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
Robber-baron capitalism of the turn of the 19th century was a failure.
Tens of millions of people lived in poverty, many died, and the only
ones who benefitted were the extremely wealthy few.
It was a failure in some ways.
In every important way it was a failure.
I disagree. It built an infrastructure that exists today.
At the same time it created the
industrial and transportation base that supports our current economy.
And killed millions of people as a result. Dictatorship could have
produced the same outcome.
Millions? How?
If you look at the living conditions that existed under other systems
and in other countries you will see that the conditions in the US were
bad by the standards of today but not by the standards that existed at
the time.
Which doesn't mean much since the US wasn't the only country to try
that experiment. The number of nations left that still use pure
capitalism is very few, and none are of any consequence.
Pure capitalism is unstable and has problems. When minimal controls
are put in place it still works better than anything else that has
been tried.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ray Fischer" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
01 Dec 2005 09:28:59 PM |
|
|
Attila <Attila> wrote:
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer)
Attila <Attila> wrote:
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer)
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
Robber-baron capitalism of the turn of the 19th century was a failure.
Tens of millions of people lived in poverty, many died, and the only
ones who benefitted were the extremely wealthy few.
It was a failure in some ways.
In every important way it was a failure.
I disagree. It built an infrastructure that exists today.
What infrastruture? Roads, dams, utilities, and transportaiton that
has been government built and government regulated?
At the same time it created the
industrial and transportation base that supports our current economy.
And killed millions of people as a result. Dictatorship could have
produced the same outcome.
Millions? How?
Poverty kills. Lack of food, lack of shelter, lack of proper
nutrition, job injuries, pollution, ...
If you look at the living conditions that existed under other systems
and in other countries you will see that the conditions in the US were
bad by the standards of today but not by the standards that existed at
the time.
Which doesn't mean much since the US wasn't the only country to try
that experiment. The number of nations left that still use pure
capitalism is very few, and none are of any consequence.
Pure capitalism is unstable and has problems. When minimal controls
are put in place it still works better than anything else that has
been tried.
LOL! So now you're saying that YOUR version of capitalism is the
best?
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
|
|
|
| User: "Attila" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
02 Dec 2005 03:54:11 AM |
|
|
On 1 Dec 2005 19:28:59 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmof1r$158$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
Robber-baron capitalism of the turn of the 19th century was a failure.
Tens of millions of people lived in poverty, many died, and the only
ones who benefitted were the extremely wealthy few.
It was a failure in some ways.
In every important way it was a failure.
I disagree. It built an infrastructure that exists today.
What infrastruture? Roads, dams, utilities, and transportaiton that
has been government built and government regulated?
Railroads, oil and steel industries just to mention a few. While they
are no longer controlled by a few without that few I wonder if they
would exist at the same level.
At the same time it created the
industrial and transportation base that supports our current economy.
And killed millions of people as a result. Dictatorship could have
produced the same outcome.
Millions? How?
Poverty kills. Lack of food, lack of shelter, lack of proper
nutrition, job injuries, pollution, ...
Which is not the fault of the economic system. Such deaths have
always occurred.
If you look at the living conditions that existed under other systems
and in other countries you will see that the conditions in the US were
bad by the standards of today but not by the standards that existed at
the time.
Which doesn't mean much since the US wasn't the only country to try
that experiment. The number of nations left that still use pure
capitalism is very few, and none are of any consequence.
Pure capitalism is unstable and has problems. When minimal controls
are put in place it still works better than anything else that has
been tried.
LOL! So now you're saying that YOUR version of capitalism is the
best?
No. I am saying there is no reason to destroy capitalism as it exists
today simply because it does not attain what you want. Nor should
income redistribution be a part of it.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ray Fischer" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
03 Dec 2005 12:45:44 AM |
|
|
Attila <Attila> wrote:
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer) in
Attila <Attila> wrote:
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer)
Attila <Attila> wrote:
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer)
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
Robber-baron capitalism of the turn of the 19th century was a failure.
Tens of millions of people lived in poverty, many died, and the only
ones who benefitted were the extremely wealthy few.
It was a failure in some ways.
In every important way it was a failure.
I disagree. It built an infrastructure that exists today.
What infrastruture? Roads, dams, utilities, and transportaiton that
has been government built and government regulated?
Railroads, oil and steel industries just to mention a few.
Railroads which were monopolies and drove many people out of business
and into poverty. A steel industry which cannot compete on the world
market. An oil industry which is doing its best to suppress and
stifle innovation in the energy production.
Your assumption that capitalism is about benefitting society is naive
stupidity at best. Capitalism is about profits for the stockholders
and screw everybody else, even if it means that millions die.
At the same time it created the
industrial and transportation base that supports our current economy.
And killed millions of people as a result. Dictatorship could have
produced the same outcome.
Millions? How?
Poverty kills. Lack of food, lack of shelter, lack of proper
nutrition, job injuries, pollution, ...
Which is not the fault of the economic system.
What a stupid ***** you are.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
|
|
|
| User: "Attila" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
03 Dec 2005 04:10:59 AM |
|
|
On 2 Dec 2005 22:45:44 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmreuo$gk1$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer) in
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
Robber-baron capitalism of the turn of the 19th century was a failure.
Tens of millions of people lived in poverty, many died, and the only
ones who benefitted were the extremely wealthy few.
It was a failure in some ways.
In every important way it was a failure.
I disagree. It built an infrastructure that exists today.
What infrastruture? Roads, dams, utilities, and transportaiton that
has been government built and government regulated?
Railroads, oil and steel industries just to mention a few.
Railroads which were monopolies and drove many people out of business
and into poverty.
Railroads were the transportation system that opened up a huge part of
the country to settlement. Without them US history would be much
different.
A steel industry which cannot compete on the world
market.
Today, to a limited extent. But it was key in the past to overall
economic development.
An oil industry which is doing its best to suppress and
stifle innovation in the energy production.
The basic structure of the industry was built by Standard Oil before
the breakup, and it was able to sustain both the transportation and
energy industries.
Your assumption that capitalism is about benefitting society is naive
stupidity at best. Capitalism is about profits for the stockholders
Just who do you think these stockholders are?
and screw everybody else, even if it means that millions die.
Do you think it is possible to protect everyone from everything?
I had a cousin who died as a direct effect of quitting smoking. If he
has not quit he would be alive today.
At the same time it created the
industrial and transportation base that supports our current economy.
And killed millions of people as a result. Dictatorship could have
produced the same outcome.
Millions? How?
Poverty kills. Lack of food, lack of shelter, lack of proper
nutrition, job injuries, pollution, ...
Which is not the fault of the economic system.
What a stupid ***** you are.
Another of your fact filled retorts.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ray Fischer" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
03 Dec 2005 11:03:52 AM |
|
|
Attila <Attila> wrote:
On 2 Dec 2005 22:45:44 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmreuo$gk1$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer) in
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
Robber-baron capitalism of the turn of the 19th century was a failure.
Tens of millions of people lived in poverty, many died, and the only
ones who benefitted were the extremely wealthy few.
It was a failure in some ways.
In every important way it was a failure.
I disagree. It built an infrastructure that exists today.
What infrastruture? Roads, dams, utilities, and transportaiton that
has been government built and government regulated?
Railroads, oil and steel industries just to mention a few.
Railroads which were monopolies and drove many people out of business
and into poverty.
Railroads were the transportation system that opened up a huge part of
the country to settlement. Without them US history would be much
different.
That doesn't justify robbery.
The ends do not justify the means.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
|
|
|
| User: "Attila" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
03 Dec 2005 02:19:10 PM |
|
|
On 3 Dec 2005 09:03:52 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmsj5o$1gd$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
On 2 Dec 2005 22:45:44 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmreuo$gk1$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer) in
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
Robber-baron capitalism of the turn of the 19th century was a failure.
Tens of millions of people lived in poverty, many died, and the only
ones who benefitted were the extremely wealthy few.
It was a failure in some ways.
In every important way it was a failure.
I disagree. It built an infrastructure that exists today.
What infrastruture? Roads, dams, utilities, and transportaiton that
has been government built and government regulated?
Railroads, oil and steel industries just to mention a few.
Railroads which were monopolies and drove many people out of business
and into poverty.
Railroads were the transportation system that opened up a huge part of
the country to settlement. Without them US history would be much
different.
That doesn't justify robbery.
What robbery? With a few exceptions everything done was legal.
The ends do not justify the means.
Who said they do?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ray Fischer" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
03 Dec 2005 08:54:58 PM |
|
|
Attila <Attila> wrote:
On 3 Dec 2005 09:03:52 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmsj5o$1gd$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
On 2 Dec 2005 22:45:44 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmreuo$gk1$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer) in
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
Robber-baron capitalism of the turn of the 19th century was a failure.
Tens of millions of people lived in poverty, many died, and the only
ones who benefitted were the extremely wealthy few.
It was a failure in some ways.
In every important way it was a failure.
I disagree. It built an infrastructure that exists today.
What infrastruture? Roads, dams, utilities, and transportaiton that
has been government built and government regulated?
Railroads, oil and steel industries just to mention a few.
Railroads which were monopolies and drove many people out of business
and into poverty.
Railroads were the transportation system that opened up a huge part of
the country to settlement. Without them US history would be much
different.
That doesn't justify robbery.
What robbery? With a few exceptions everything done was legal.
Don't play your little games with me, *****. I have no patiencefor
sociopaths who think that they can steal, maim, and murder so long as
they can get away with it.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
|
|
|
| User: "Attila" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
04 Dec 2005 03:58:35 AM |
|
|
On 3 Dec 2005 18:54:58 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmtlq2$vb4$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
On 3 Dec 2005 09:03:52 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmsj5o$1gd$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
On 2 Dec 2005 22:45:44 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmreuo$gk1$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer) in
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
Robber-baron capitalism of the turn of the 19th century was a failure.
Tens of millions of people lived in poverty, many died, and the only
ones who benefitted were the extremely wealthy few.
It was a failure in some ways.
In every important way it was a failure.
I disagree. It built an infrastructure that exists today.
What infrastruture? Roads, dams, utilities, and transportaiton that
has been government built and government regulated?
Railroads, oil and steel industries just to mention a few.
Railroads which were monopolies and drove many people out of business
and into poverty.
Railroads were the transportation system that opened up a huge part of
the country to settlement. Without them US history would be much
different.
That doesn't justify robbery.
What robbery? With a few exceptions everything done was legal.
Don't play your little games with me, *****. I have no patiencefor
sociopaths who think that they can steal, maim, and murder so long as
they can get away with it.
Nor have I, Moose Breath.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ray Fischer" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
04 Dec 2005 03:08:48 PM |
|
|
Attila <Attila> wrote:
On 3 Dec 2005 18:54:58 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmtlq2$vb4$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
On 3 Dec 2005 09:03:52 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmsj5o$1gd$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
On 2 Dec 2005 22:45:44 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmreuo$gk1$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer) in
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
Robber-baron capitalism of the turn of the 19th century was a failure.
Tens of millions of people lived in poverty, many died, and the only
ones who benefitted were the extremely wealthy few.
It was a failure in some ways.
In every important way it was a failure.
I disagree. It built an infrastructure that exists today.
What infrastruture? Roads, dams, utilities, and transportaiton that
has been government built and government regulated?
Railroads, oil and steel industries just to mention a few.
Railroads which were monopolies and drove many people out of business
and into poverty.
Railroads were the transportation system that opened up a huge part of
the country to settlement. Without them US history would be much
different.
That doesn't justify robbery.
What robbery? With a few exceptions everything done was legal.
Don't play your little games with me, *****. I have no patiencefor
sociopaths who think that they can steal, maim, and murder so long as
they can get away with it.
Nor have I, Moose Breath.
You're lying. "everything done was legal" were your words.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
|
|
|
| User: "Attila" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
04 Dec 2005 05:58:35 PM |
|
|
On 4 Dec 2005 13:08:48 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmvlt0$3ch$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
On 3 Dec 2005 18:54:58 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmtlq2$vb4$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
On 3 Dec 2005 09:03:52 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmsj5o$1gd$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
On 2 Dec 2005 22:45:44 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmreuo$gk1$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer) in
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
Robber-baron capitalism of the turn of the 19th century was a failure.
Tens of millions of people lived in poverty, many died, and the only
ones who benefitted were the extremely wealthy few.
It was a failure in some ways.
In every important way it was a failure.
I disagree. It built an infrastructure that exists today.
What infrastruture? Roads, dams, utilities, and transportaiton that
has been government built and government regulated?
Railroads, oil and steel industries just to mention a few.
Railroads which were monopolies and drove many people out of business
and into poverty.
Railroads were the transportation system that opened up a huge part of
the country to settlement. Without them US history would be much
different.
That doesn't justify robbery.
What robbery? With a few exceptions everything done was legal.
Don't play your little games with me, *****. I have no patiencefor
sociopaths who think that they can steal, maim, and murder so long as
they can get away with it.
Nor have I, Moose Breath.
You're lying. "everything done was legal" were your words.
Actually you can read my exact words a few lines up, as well as your
directly factual and on point response.
I am sure if you could provide a law that was broken you would jump
at the opportunity to post it. And robbery requires a law to be
broken.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "David Jensen" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
03 Dec 2005 02:22:34 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 15:19:10 -0500, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<0cv3p1l5spfahuls190mme5t4diohepkgi@4ax.com>:
On 3 Dec 2005 09:03:52 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmsj5o$1gd$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
On 2 Dec 2005 22:45:44 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmreuo$gk1$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer) in
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
Robber-baron capitalism of the turn of the 19th century was a failure.
Tens of millions of people lived in poverty, many died, and the only
ones who benefitted were the extremely wealthy few.
It was a failure in some ways.
In every important way it was a failure.
I disagree. It built an infrastructure that exists today.
What infrastruture? Roads, dams, utilities, and transportaiton that
has been government built and government regulated?
Railroads, oil and steel industries just to mention a few.
Railroads which were monopolies and drove many people out of business
and into poverty.
Railroads were the transportation system that opened up a huge part of
the country to settlement. Without them US history would be much
different.
That doesn't justify robbery.
What robbery? With a few exceptions everything done was legal.
"Sign this treaty giving up your land or we'll kill you."
The ends do not justify the means.
Who said they do?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Attila" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
04 Dec 2005 03:57:18 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 14:22:34 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<bjv3p11pdmc0a93bjol1d40cdu0ivt7l1l@4ax.com> wrote:
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 15:19:10 -0500, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<0cv3p1l5spfahuls190mme5t4diohepkgi@4ax.com>:
On 3 Dec 2005 09:03:52 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmsj5o$1gd$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
On 2 Dec 2005 22:45:44 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmreuo$gk1$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer) in
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
Robber-baron capitalism of the turn of the 19th century was a failure.
Tens of millions of people lived in poverty, many died, and the only
ones who benefitted were the extremely wealthy few.
It was a failure in some ways.
In every important way it was a failure.
I disagree. It built an infrastructure that exists today.
What infrastruture? Roads, dams, utilities, and transportaiton that
has been government built and government regulated?
Railroads, oil and steel industries just to mention a few.
Railroads which were monopolies and drove many people out of business
and into poverty.
Railroads were the transportation system that opened up a huge part of
the country to settlement. Without them US history would be much
different.
That doesn't justify robbery.
What robbery? With a few exceptions everything done was legal.
"Sign this treaty giving up your land or we'll kill you."
I agree the treatment of primitive societies by the standards of today
was reprehensible but that is hardly a reason to condemn an entire
economic system. That treatment was rooted in social and political
issues more than economic issues.
At the time it was simply the way things were done.
It is still being done in some parts of the world, where one group has
something another and stronger group wants.
The ends do not justify the means.
Who said they do?
.
|
|
|
| User: "David Jensen" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
04 Dec 2005 12:03:13 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 04:57:18 -0500, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<m5f5p1thi6fnj6fessedi3hpjo0mt6c3q4@4ax.com>:
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 14:22:34 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<bjv3p11pdmc0a93bjol1d40cdu0ivt7l1l@4ax.com> wrote:
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 15:19:10 -0500, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<0cv3p1l5spfahuls190mme5t4diohepkgi@4ax.com>:
On 3 Dec 2005 09:03:52 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmsj5o$1gd$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
On 2 Dec 2005 22:45:44 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmreuo$gk1$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer) in
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
Robber-baron capitalism of the turn of the 19th century was a failure.
Tens of millions of people lived in poverty, many died, and the only
ones who benefitted were the extremely wealthy few.
It was a failure in some ways.
In every important way it was a failure.
I disagree. It built an infrastructure that exists today.
What infrastruture? Roads, dams, utilities, and transportaiton that
has been government built and government regulated?
Railroads, oil and steel industries just to mention a few.
Railroads which were monopolies and drove many people out of business
and into poverty.
Railroads were the transportation system that opened up a huge part of
the country to settlement. Without them US history would be much
different.
That doesn't justify robbery.
What robbery? With a few exceptions everything done was legal.
"Sign this treaty giving up your land or we'll kill you."
I agree the treatment of primitive societies by the standards of today
was reprehensible but that is hardly a reason to condemn an entire
economic system. That treatment was rooted in social and political
issues more than economic issues.
At the time it was simply the way things were done.
It is still being done in some parts of the world, where one group has
something another and stronger group wants.
Almost all of the rail laid in the United States was done in a
mercantilist manner. The fact that it was legal for the government to
hand out huge swaths of land to railroad developers and then give them
operational monopolies doesn't mean that it was just. The fact that it
was legal for oil companies to pollute for decades, rather than pay
their own costs, doesn't mean it was just. The fact that it was legal
for Pinkertons to kill strikers doesn't mean it was just.
When the government conspires with capital owners to let them
externalize their costs, that is not capitalism. It is some corrupt form
of mercantilism.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Attila" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
04 Dec 2005 05:56:07 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 12:03:13 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<5gb6p15q1j1fh56pjldlv2ldoc19k5rsgt@4ax.com> wrote:
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 04:57:18 -0500, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<m5f5p1thi6fnj6fessedi3hpjo0mt6c3q4@4ax.com>:
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 14:22:34 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<bjv3p11pdmc0a93bjol1d40cdu0ivt7l1l@4ax.com> wrote:
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 15:19:10 -0500, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<0cv3p1l5spfahuls190mme5t4diohepkgi@4ax.com>:
On 3 Dec 2005 09:03:52 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmsj5o$1gd$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
On 2 Dec 2005 22:45:44 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmreuo$gk1$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer) in
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
Robber-baron capitalism of the turn of the 19th century was a failure.
Tens of millions of people lived in poverty, many died, and the only
ones who benefitted were the extremely wealthy few.
It was a failure in some ways.
In every important way it was a failure.
I disagree. It built an infrastructure that exists today.
What infrastruture? Roads, dams, utilities, and transportaiton that
has been government built and government regulated?
Railroads, oil and steel industries just to mention a few.
Railroads which were monopolies and drove many people out of business
and into poverty.
Railroads were the transportation system that opened up a huge part of
the country to settlement. Without them US history would be much
different.
That doesn't justify robbery.
What robbery? With a few exceptions everything done was legal.
"Sign this treaty giving up your land or we'll kill you."
I agree the treatment of primitive societies by the standards of today
was reprehensible but that is hardly a reason to condemn an entire
economic system. That treatment was rooted in social and political
issues more than economic issues.
At the time it was simply the way things were done.
It is still being done in some parts of the world, where one group has
something another and stronger group wants.
Almost all of the rail laid in the United States was done in a
mercantilist manner. The fact that it was legal for the government to
hand out huge swaths of land to railroad developers and then give them
operational monopolies doesn't mean that it was just.
Irrelevant. Selling that land provided the money needed to complete
the railroad.
The fact that it
was legal for oil companies to pollute for decades, rather than pay
their own costs, doesn't mean it was just.
Irrelevant. Pollution was not a known issue at the time. I am sure
we do things today in our everyday lives that will horrify furtre
generations.
The fact that it was legal
for Pinkertons to kill strikers doesn't mean it was just.
Again, those were the standards of the time.
When the government conspires with capital owners to let them
externalize their costs, that is not capitalism. It is some corrupt form
of mercantilism.
But that was the way business was done then and it was acceptable.
Standards have changed but that is not a reason to condemn people who
operated under the standards of the times.
Should every doctor who uses a procedure that is supplanted by a
better procedure be persecuted for using the old procedure, even
thought it was the only one known at the time?
.
|
|
|
| User: "David Jensen" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
04 Dec 2005 07:04:12 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 18:56:07 -0500, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<4407p1lr8bdaol8ke09ub6lmd19d9u6q10@4ax.com>:
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 12:03:13 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<5gb6p15q1j1fh56pjldlv2ldoc19k5rsgt@4ax.com> wrote:
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 04:57:18 -0500, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<m5f5p1thi6fnj6fessedi3hpjo0mt6c3q4@4ax.com>:
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 14:22:34 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<bjv3p11pdmc0a93bjol1d40cdu0ivt7l1l@4ax.com> wrote:
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 15:19:10 -0500, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<0cv3p1l5spfahuls190mme5t4diohepkgi@4ax.com>:
On 3 Dec 2005 09:03:52 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmsj5o$1gd$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
On 2 Dec 2005 22:45:44 -0800, (Ray Fischer) in
alt.abortion with message-id <dmreuo$gk1$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer) in
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
Robber-baron capitalism of the turn of the 19th century was a failure.
Tens of millions of people lived in poverty, many died, and the only
ones who benefitted were the extremely wealthy few.
It was a failure in some ways.
In every important way it was a failure.
I disagree. It built an infrastructure that exists today.
What infrastruture? Roads, dams, utilities, and transportaiton that
has been government built and government regulated?
Railroads, oil and steel industries just to mention a few.
Railroads which were monopolies and drove many people out of business
and into poverty.
Railroads were the transportation system that opened up a huge part of
the country to settlement. Without them US history would be much
different.
That doesn't justify robbery.
What robbery? With a few exceptions everything done was legal.
"Sign this treaty giving up your land or we'll kill you."
I agree the treatment of primitive societies by the standards of today
was reprehensible but that is hardly a reason to condemn an entire
economic system. That treatment was rooted in social and political
issues more than economic issues.
At the time it was simply the way things were done.
It is still being done in some parts of the world, where one group has
something another and stronger group wants.
Almost all of the rail laid in the United States was done in a
mercantilist manner. The fact that it was legal for the government to
hand out huge swaths of land to railroad developers and then give them
operational monopolies doesn't mean that it was just.
Irrelevant. Selling that land provided the money needed to complete
the railroad.
The fact that it
was legal for oil companies to pollute for decades, rather than pay
their own costs, doesn't mean it was just.
Irrelevant. Pollution was not a known issue at the time. I am sure
we do things today in our everyday lives that will horrify furtre
generations.
The fact that it was legal
for Pinkertons to kill strikers doesn't mean it was just.
Again, those were the standards of the time.
When the government conspires with capital owners to let them
externalize their costs, that is not capitalism. It is some corrupt form
of mercantilism.
But that was the way business was done then and it was acceptable.
Standards have changed but that is not a reason to condemn people who
operated under the standards of the times.
Should every doctor who uses a procedure that is supplanted by a
better procedure be persecuted for using the old procedure, even
thought it was the only one known at the time?
It's beyond foolish to excuse actions that were crimes _at the time_
just because the government looked away.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Attila" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
05 Dec 2005 06:33:57 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 19:04:12 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<6f47p1pce5u8871p0j6lji021o66ggtihv@4ax.com> wrote:
When the government conspires with capital owners to let them
externalize their costs, that is not capitalism. It is some corrupt form
of mercantilism.
But that was the way business was done then and it was acceptable.
Standards have changed but that is not a reason to condemn people who
operated under the standards of the times.
Should every doctor who uses a procedure that is supplanted by a
better procedure be persecuted for using the old procedure, even
thought it was the only one known at the time?
It's beyond foolish to excuse actions that were crimes _at the time_
just because the government looked away.
Oh? Exactly what laws were broken yet not enforced? I remind you the
anti-trust laws were enacted as a result of the conditions you
describe. They did not exist at the time.
.
|
|
|
| User: "David Jensen" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
05 Dec 2005 07:37:16 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 07:33:57 -0500, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<ppc8p1pje9baei5f3hiqnc9jivbh3bmfp8@4ax.com>:
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 19:04:12 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<6f47p1pce5u8871p0j6lji021o66ggtihv@4ax.com> wrote:
When the government conspires with capital owners to let them
externalize their costs, that is not capitalism. It is some corrupt form
of mercantilism.
But that was the way business was done then and it was acceptable.
Standards have changed but that is not a reason to condemn people who
operated under the standards of the times.
Should every doctor who uses a procedure that is supplanted by a
better procedure be persecuted for using the old procedure, even
thought it was the only one known at the time?
It's beyond foolish to excuse actions that were crimes _at the time_
just because the government looked away.
Oh? Exactly what laws were broken yet not enforced? I remind you the
anti-trust laws were enacted as a result of the conditions you
describe. They did not exist at the time.
For pollution? Nuisance.
For killing? Murder.
For property expropriation? Treaties.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Attila" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
05 Dec 2005 05:10:58 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 07:37:16 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<uig8p1pcbg7pd3ti5fjab2mqpnb0qm1c2t@4ax.com> wrote:
It's beyond foolish to excuse actions that were crimes _at the time_
just because the government looked away.
Oh? Exactly what laws were broken yet not enforced? I remind you the
anti-trust laws were enacted as a result of the conditions you
describe. They did not exist at the time.
For pollution? Nuisance.
Pollution was not even in the average vocabulary of the time.
For killing? Murder.
Which has always been illegal and punished.
For property expropriation? Treaties.
Treaties are legal unless made at gunpoint. And this was the era of
gunboat diplomacy.
.
|
|
|
| User: "David Jensen" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
05 Dec 2005 08:16:14 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 18:10:58 -0500, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<p4i9p1drtkf5p023ld58md7gp37ose1r34@4ax.com>:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 07:37:16 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<uig8p1pcbg7pd3ti5fjab2mqpnb0qm1c2t@4ax.com> wrote:
It's beyond foolish to excuse actions that were crimes _at the time_
just because the government looked away.
Oh? Exactly what laws were broken yet not enforced? I remind you the
anti-trust laws were enacted as a result of the conditions you
describe. They did not exist at the time.
For pollution? Nuisance.
Pollution was not even in the average vocabulary of the time.
But nuisance was understood by the lawyers of the day.
For killing? Murder.
Which has always been illegal and punished.
But was not punished in the examples.
For property expropriation? Treaties.
Treaties are legal unless made at gunpoint. And this was the era of
gunboat diplomacy.
The US government forced the treaties on the natives and then the US
government broke the treaties. Whether the Indians were bound by the
treaties, the US was and the US violated its treaties.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Attila" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
06 Dec 2005 07:16:54 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 20:16:14 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<i0t9p1pg2m4ab954guun8u18uv2vspudqa@4ax.com> wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 18:10:58 -0500, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<p4i9p1drtkf5p023ld58md7gp37ose1r34@4ax.com>:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 07:37:16 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<uig8p1pcbg7pd3ti5fjab2mqpnb0qm1c2t@4ax.com> wrote:
It's beyond foolish to excuse actions that were crimes _at the time_
just because the government looked away.
Oh? Exactly what laws were broken yet not enforced? I remind you the
anti-trust laws were enacted as a result of the conditions you
describe. They did not exist at the time.
For pollution? Nuisance.
Pollution was not even in the average vocabulary of the time.
But nuisance was understood by the lawyers of the day.
What is considered a nuisance today was not so considered then.
For killing? Murder.
Which has always been illegal and punished.
But was not punished in the examples.
Officials not enforcing laws has always been a problem, and a
different issue.
Look that the current immigration chaos.
For property expropriation? Treaties.
Treaties are legal unless made at gunpoint. And this was the era of
gunboat diplomacy.
The US government forced the treaties on the natives and then the US
government broke the treaties. Whether the Indians were bound by the
treaties, the US was and the US violated its treaties.
I agree. While that was common for the times, especially where a
weaker power was concerned, it should not have been done. But it was
not a crime at the time.
.
|
|
|
| User: "David Jensen" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
06 Dec 2005 07:20:12 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 08:16:54 -0500, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<6j3bp11lhufah9gioefog263cnnvl1opik@4ax.com>:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 20:16:14 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<i0t9p1pg2m4ab954guun8u18uv2vspudqa@4ax.com> wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 18:10:58 -0500, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<p4i9p1drtkf5p023ld58md7gp37ose1r34@4ax.com>:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 07:37:16 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<uig8p1pcbg7pd3ti5fjab2mqpnb0qm1c2t@4ax.com> wrote:
It's beyond foolish to excuse actions that were crimes _at the time_
just because the government looked away.
Oh? Exactly what laws were broken yet not enforced? I remind you the
anti-trust laws were enacted as a result of the conditions you
describe. They did not exist at the time.
For pollution? Nuisance.
Pollution was not even in the average vocabulary of the time.
But nuisance was understood by the lawyers of the day.
What is considered a nuisance today was not so considered then.
Do tell us all about it.
For killing? Murder.
Which has always been illegal and punished.
But was not punished in the examples.
Officials not enforcing laws has always been a problem, and a
different issue.
Look that the current immigration chaos.
Yes.
For property expropriation? Treaties.
Treaties are legal unless made at gunpoint. And this was the era of
gunboat diplomacy.
The US government forced the treaties on the natives and then the US
government broke the treaties. Whether the Indians were bound by the
treaties, the US was and the US violated its treaties.
I agree. While that was common for the times, especially where a
weaker power was concerned, it should not have been done. But it was
not a crime at the time.
It was a crime, there was just no enforcement. Governments are hardly
ever punished if they cooperate in a criminal conspiracy.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "thomas p" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
30 Nov 2005 02:50:23 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:18:17 -0500, Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote:
On 29 Nov 2005 21:26:37 -0800, (Ray Fischer)
in alt.abortion with message-id <dmjd6d$8t4$1@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
Robber-baron capitalism of the turn of the 19th century was a failure.
Tens of millions of people lived in poverty, many died, and the only
ones who benefitted were the extremely wealthy few.
It was a failure in some ways. At the same time it created the
industrial and transportation base that supports our current economy.
If you look at the living conditions that existed under other systems
and in other countries you will see that the conditions in the US were
bad by the standards of today but not by the standards that existed at
the time.
No system is perfect, and every viable system changes and evolves as
conditions and circumstances warrant.
And when people make a conscious decision to change things. Changes
will come no matter what, but whether they will be positive or
negative is another question altogether.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Terry Cross" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
30 Nov 2005 06:39:37 PM |
|
|
Attila wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:49:18 +0100, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> in alt.abortion with message-id
<sqtoo1hgbc2lgif1c8upsv57coi5dc8rdq@4ax.com> wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:19:29 -0500, Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:45:52 +0100, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> in alt.abortion with message-id
<k6cmo19rv3m2go02unq52074d0pgvip8q6@4ax.com> wrote:
The economic system established in the Soviet was based on the ideas
of Marx, Engles and Lenin. It was not 100% faithful to any of them,
but, then again, their written opinions are not holy script. As it
turned out the ideals claimed were, to a large degree, corrupted in
the service of, first of all, individual tyrants and, especially at
the end, a self-serving bureaucracy. In my opinion it could not have
worked under any circumstances, but an actual attempt was made to
transform the ideal into reality.
Actually it does work quite well on a very small scale and primitive
level. If a simple culture is involved and only a few people working
together and pooling available resources for the common good can be
very successful.
The American Indians did it, as did Israel with their Kibbutz. It
just will not work for an evolved and complex economy and political
structure.
This is quite obviously not true. A snie qua non of Marxism is
coercion - compulsion, force, if you will - slave labor. Neither the
Amerindians nor the Israelis used slave labor among their own people.
The differnce is critical.
In other words it will not work.
Not for anything beyond a small and close knit society. Human
psychological factors quickly distort the pure economics. Politics is
thus born.
The problem is in comparing different systems that are described by
the same word. Precisely because of human nature, the economic system
advocated by Marx cannot work
Marxism was a fraud. It promised freedom through slavery (in the words
of Orwell), and the result was slavery. What do ya know.
Exactly. And some of the systems described as 'capitalism' will not
work yet some are much more successful than anything else that has
been tried.
You could describe a dog as a "cow," and still it would starve on a
diet of grass. Would it surprise anyone?
The essential difference between the Capitalism of the West and the
Communism of the East was Freedom vs. Slavery. You could have a
communist (small C) society based on Freedom, and it might work just
fine - look at the socialism in Sweden.
On the other hand, you could have a capitalist (small C) system based
on Slavery, and have it not work at all. By slavery, I do not mean the
Slavery of Dixie, where only a part of the populace was enslaved. I
refer to the Slavery of Post-Industrial capitalism, the future economy
of the US, where the rich are out-sight-rich, and the poor are
hopelessly poor.
TCross
.
|
|
|
| User: "Attila" |
|
| Title: Re: How Would Nation Without God Look Like ? |
30 Nov 2005 10:34:15 PM |
|
|
On 30 Nov 2005 16:39:37 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> in
alt.abortion with message-id
<1133397577.349602.71170@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:
Attila wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:49:18 +0100, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> in alt.abortion with message-id
<sqtoo1hgbc2lgif1c8upsv57coi5dc8rdq@4ax.com> wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:19:29 -0500, Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:45:52 +0100, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> in alt.abortion with message-id
<k6cmo19rv3m2go02unq52074d0pgvip8q6@4ax.com> wrote:
The economic system established in the Soviet was based on the ideas
of Marx, Engles and Lenin. It was not 100% faithful to any of them,
but, then again, their written opinions are not holy script. As it
turned out the ideals claimed were, to a large degree, corrupted in
the service of, first of all, individual tyrants and, especially at
the end, a self-serving bureaucracy. In my opinion it could not have
worked under any circumstances, but an actual attempt was made to
transform the ideal into reality.
Actually it does work quite well on a very small scale and primitive
level. If a simple culture is involved and only a few people working
together and pooling available resources for the common good can be
very successful.
The American Indians did it, as did Israel | | | | |
