Huh?

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Andrew W"
Date:	19 Dec 2003 10:10:27 PM
Object:	Huh?

It is written in Mathew 22:36,
When asked what was God's greatest commandment, Jesus said, "Thou shalt love
the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy
mind." This is the great and foremost commandment.
The problem with this is that love which is born of coercion can never
become true love which means we can no more truly love God than a slave his
keeper. Therefore the commandments could not have come form a wise and
unconditionally loving god.
Jesus was not lying, it's simply that he did not say what is claimed in the
first place.
No one knows for sure what Jesus said nearly 2000 years ago but christians
continue to swear blind that they do just because it's written in an old
badly translated and heavily annotated book.
It is said that God wants us to choose to love him above all others but if
he coerces us with threats of hell then it ceases to be a choice. Now our
love can not only not be true but it's also not even a choice any more.
The alienation process is complete.
If man turned away from God in the garden of Eden then it was for three
reasons: Inbuilt inferiority, inbuilt curiosity and neglect by god to
provide sufficient information.
We shouldn't have to pay for god's mistakes.
In any case what Adam and Eve did has nothing to do with us so we have
nothing to worry about as long as we live a decent life.
Obeying an arbitrary set of rules has nothing to do with morality but has
everything to do with the concept of slavery and slavery was one of the
things that was rampant 2000 years ago and later so it's no surprise that
men wrote such oppressive verses in the scriptures. It is doubtful whether
much of what's in the bible is the word of a single all loving god.
--
Andrew.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/ajwerner/
.

User: "Mark Fox"
Title: Re: Huh?	24 Dec 2003 03:11:03 PM

"Andrew W" <nosp@m_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote

Is that why he gave us free will? So our love would not be coerced?

Therefore the commandments could not have come form a wise and
unconditionally loving god.

Is it God who is threatening us with punishment for our sin or does
sin have natural consequences and it is God who is trying to warn us
of those consequences just like a ship at sea that is heading toward
the rocks in the dark?

It is said that God wants us to choose to love him above all others but if
he coerces us with threats of hell then it ceases to be a choice.

Its only coercion if you are afraid of hell. What is it that makes
you afraid of hell if god does not exist?

Now our
love can not only not be true but it's also not even a choice any more.
The alienation process is complete.

If man turned away from God in the garden of Eden then it was for three
reasons: Inbuilt inferiority, inbuilt curiosity and neglect by god to
provide sufficient information.

or it could have been the desire to take control. The original sin.

We shouldn't have to pay for god's mistakes.

We should stop blaming God for our mistakes.

In any case what Adam and Eve did has nothing to do with us so we have
nothing to worry about as long as we live a decent life.

We are descendents of Adam and eve possessing the same desire to take
control away from God.

Obeying an arbitrary set of rules has nothing to do with morality but has
everything to do with the concept of slavery

Have you read the Bible?
The 'rules' are:
1. love God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind
and
2. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.
They are only arbitrary if you don't understand.

and slavery was one of the
things that was rampant 2000 years ago and later so it's no surprise that
men wrote such oppressive verses in the scriptures. It is doubtful whether
much of what's in the bible is the word of a single all loving god.

Funny, by your thinking how could people, so diverse, some very good
and some very bad, some large and some small, some who lived 5000
years ago and some who are alive today, be members of the same
species?
.

User: "Andrew W"
Title: Re: Huh?	24 Dec 2003 06:34:08 PM

"Mark Fox" <mark_fox_@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a258afb5.0312241311.4887511e@posting.google.com...

"Andrew W" <nosp@m_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote

The problem with this is that love which is born of coercion can never
become true love which means we can no more truly love God than a slave

his

keeper.

Is that why he gave us free will? So our love would not be coerced?

It's difficult to say what he gave us free will for but it seems a bit
callous that he would only let us choose between eternal mindless worship at
his feet in heaven, and death.
That's a bit like what a robber says - your money or your life.
If we are son's of god then we would deserve more choices and more amicable
ones. If those are the two choices then why (according to some
denominations) would he also need to pile threats of eternal burning in fire
on top of that? At least that was clearly only used to scare naughty
children in the dark ages and was later claimed to be the truth by some.
How much more of the scriptures could be false?

Therefore the commandments could not have come form a wise and
unconditionally loving god.

First you have to ask yourself what sin is. Sin is a word which simply means
to break the rules of a ruler god. Rules which we have never really
understood in the first place. Granted some have obvious moral values but
it's the ones that are not in the Ten Commandments which are in many cases
arbitrary and nonsensical but people don't think of questioning them. They
just follow everyone else and assume that they're from our Creator also. The
only way to learn how to live a decent and peaceful life is to learn and
know the ins and outs of everything, not to just try to live a scared
sheepish life and hope for the best.
If that worked then sin would have been eliminated in the Christian sector a
long time ago and yet it is said that most people in prison are christians.
Hitler as you know was also a Christian. Need I go on?
Satan can also inspire scripture so it's unwise to brush off and ignore the
possibility that we've all been duped.

It is said that God wants us to choose to love him above all others but

he coerces us with threats of hell then it ceases to be a choice.

Its only coercion if you are afraid of hell. What is it that makes
you afraid of hell if god does not exist?

It's not fear. I just want to get people thinking.

Now our
love can not only not be true but it's also not even a choice any more.
The alienation process is complete.

If man turned away from God in the garden of Eden then it was for three
reasons: Inbuilt inferiority, inbuilt curiosity and neglect by god to
provide sufficient information.

or it could have been the desire to take control. The original sin.

We shouldn't have to pay for god's mistakes.

We should stop blaming God for our mistakes.

There's no certainty that as perfectly created creatures we ever made any
mistakes in the first place. It's only the non sequiturs in the bible that
assert that.
We might be doing a great job.

In any case what Adam and Eve did has nothing to do with us so we have
nothing to worry about as long as we live a decent life.

We are descendents of Adam and eve possessing the same desire to take
control away from God.

What makes you believe that?
We may have evolved to be morally superior to A&E after all this time.
It might only be religion that's keeping our society sick.

Obeying an arbitrary set of rules has nothing to do with morality but

has

everything to do with the concept of slavery

Have you read the Bible?

I've tried to read it many times. It's the same gibberish each time.

The 'rules' are:

1. love God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind

Love is earned. It needs no rule in order to manifest.

and

2. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

They are only arbitrary if you don't understand.

That is a classic exclusivist line by christians which can only cause
division in society. Another ploy by fallen angels and their bible.
The question is do christians truly understand them or are they just wanting
to stay in their sheep safety zone?
There's nothing wrong with the second one, it's the first one which clearly
shows the god of the bible's (Satan's) oppressive nature.

and slavery was one of the
things that was rampant 2000 years ago and later so it's no surprise

that

men wrote such oppressive verses in the scriptures. It is doubtful

whether

much of what's in the bible is the word of a single all loving god.

Maybe we're not. Maybe we're a mixture of races from different genetic
experiments by different advanced off world factions.
That would explain why so many disagree on simple things and why we have so
much trouble getting along with each other.
--
Andrew.
The bible has always been our greatest source of dope.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/ajwerner/
.

User: "Mark Fox"
Title: Re: Huh?	26 Dec 2003 01:07:47 PM

"Andrew W" <nosp@m_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote..

"Mark Fox" <mark_fox_@yahoo.com> wrote ...

"Andrew W" <nosp@m_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote

The problem with this is that love which is born of coercion can never
become true love which means we can no more truly love God than a slave his
keeper.

Is that, perhaps, why he gave us free will? So our love would not be coerced?

It's difficult to say what he gave us free will for but it seems a bit
callous that he would only let us choose between eternal mindless worship at
his feet in heaven, and death.

Eternal mindless worship is an idea invented by humans in an attempt
to build a bureaucratic organization to control other people. Ignore
all that crap you have been told. Go out and use your mind in every
way you are able.

That's a bit like what a robber says - your money or your life.

Its more like the light house keeper who warns you that you are
heading towards the rocks in stormy seas at night. He is not going to
stop you from certain death and destruction but he is warning you. If
you ignore him, then he will certainly feel bad for you and weep with
you as he watches your ship break up on those rocks and you drown in
the sea.

If we are son's of god then we would deserve more choices and more amicable
ones. If those are the two choices then why (according to some
denominations) would he also need to pile threats of eternal burning in fire
on top of that?

No, thats just more of the bureaucratic attempts to control other
people. Its crap. Ignore it.

At least that was clearly only used to scare naughty
children in the dark ages and was later claimed to be the truth by some.
How much more of the scriptures could be false?

would it be false or just misunderstood?

Therefore the commandments could not have come form a wise and
unconditionally loving god.

Which commandments? the two that Jesus gave us?
1. Love God
2. Love you neighbor
how could those possibly not come from a wise and unconditionally
loving God.
If you were referring to the ten commandments of the old testament
then you haven't read the whole bible.

First you have to ask yourself what sin is.

Sin means to error, to miss the bulls eye in target practice.

Sin is a word which simply means
to break the rules of a ruler god.

No, thats more mindless crap you have been told by men trying to take
control over you.

Rules which we have never really
understood in the first place.

There are only two rules:
1. Love God
2. Love your neighbor
How many lifetimes would it take to truly understand the breadth and
depth of meaning in those two simple rules?

Granted some have obvious moral values but
it's the ones that are not in the Ten Commandments which are in many cases
arbitrary and nonsensical but people don't think of questioning them.

Jesus himself questioned them. Or more specifically he explained to us
that we completely screwed up their meaning so to try and help us he
redefined them for us. Have you ever read what Jesus actually said?

They
just follow everyone else and assume that they're from our Creator also. The
only way to learn how to live a decent and peaceful life is to learn and
know the ins and outs of everything, not to just try to live a scared
sheepish life and hope for the best.

Loving your neighbor when he is not particularly lovable is no task
for the "scared" or the "sheepish"!!

If that worked then sin would have been eliminated in the Christian sector

Sin is not the point. Go back and read the words of Jesus. The much
larger point is to love God and your neighbor. If you achieve that
then sin will take care of itself.

a
long time ago and yet it is said that most people in prison are christians.

or so they might claim. That doesn't make it true. Jesus said "you
will know them by their fruits".

Hitler as you know was also a Christian. Need I go on?

I don't agree. Hitler thought that he was God.

Satan can also inspire scripture so it's unwise to brush off and ignore the
possibility that we've all been duped.

But its so clear that Jesus' two commandments are not an attempt to
dupe us.

We shouldn't have to pay for god's mistakes.

We should stop blaming God for our mistakes.

There's no certainty that as perfectly created creatures we ever made any
mistakes in the first place.

Its the fundamental concept of the faith. God is perfect. We are not.
If you disagree then you need to explain why "perfect" humans are so
unhappy and fail so miserably.

It's only the non sequiturs in the bible that
assert that.

non sequiturs? how so? The Bible seems to me to accurately describe
the human condition. The Bible tells me, if nothing else, that people
have not changed in five thousand years.

We might be doing a great job.

Yes, just what I was thinking as I watched yet another news story
about a priest molesting a child.
We must be doing a GREAT job!

In any case what Adam and Eve did has nothing to do with us so we have
nothing to worry about as long as we live a decent life.

We are descendents of Adam and eve possessing the same desire to take
control away from God.

What makes you believe that?

A million experiences of human behavior. At the top of this very very
long list is Stalin, Hitler, Saddam (some believe George Bush should
be on the list). Further down the list are the CEOs of Enron, Worldcom
and Microsoft. All of whom were either killed or found themselves in
court defending themselves against accusations of crimes against the
people.

We may have evolved to be morally superior to A&E after all this time.
It might only be religion that's keeping our society sick.

or rather its false religion that is a symptom of a sick society.

Obeying an arbitrary set of rules has nothing to do with morality but

has

everything to do with the concept of slavery

Have you read the Bible?

I've tried to read it many times. It's the same gibberish each time.

The 'rules' are:

1. love God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind

Love is earned. It needs no rule in order to manifest.

and

2. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

They are only arbitrary if you don't understand.

That is a classic exclusivist line by christians which can only cause
division in society.

Love causes division in our society?

Another ploy by fallen angels and their bible.

Love is a ploy?

The question is do christians truly understand them or are they just wanting
to stay in their sheep safety zone?

Truth is still truth whether people understand it yet or not.

There's nothing wrong with the second one, it's the first one which clearly
shows the god of the bible's (Satan's) oppressive nature.

Love is oppressive?

and slavery was one of the
things that was rampant 2000 years ago and later so it's no surprise

that

men wrote such oppressive verses in the scriptures. It is doubtful

whether

much of what's in the bible is the word of a single all loving god.

Or perhaps "learning how to get along with each other" is the first
step to Loving each other which after all was Jesus' command to us two
thousand years ago. Its been two thousand years. In that time its
been reprinted everywhere, all across the world. Do you think people
someday will ever decide to listen?
.

User: "Andrew W"
Title: Re: Huh?	26 Dec 2003 06:03:10 PM

"Mark Fox" <mark_fox_@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a258afb5.0312261107.29352ff@posting.google.com...

"Andrew W" <nosp@m_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote..

"Mark Fox" <mark_fox_@yahoo.com> wrote ...

"Andrew W" <nosp@m_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote

That's a bit like what a robber says - your money or your life.

No one has a clue where we are headed.
It's not for certain that we're headed for death on the soul level.
If we are headed for death then maybe it will happen no matter what we
choose believe in.

At least that was clearly only used to scare naughty
children in the dark ages and was later claimed to be the truth by some.
How much more of the scriptures could be false?

would it be false or just misunderstood?

False because the idea of hell is ridiculous. Why would it be necessary to
make someone suffer forever? What would be the point? Why not just
terminated them and be done with it?

Therefore the commandments could not have come form a wise and
unconditionally loving god.

Which commandments? the two that Jesus gave us?

1. Love God
2. Love you neighbor

how could those possibly not come from a wise and unconditionally
loving God.

Because if God is so wonderful then it's not necessary for him to command us
to love him. His works and actions would be ample to win our love.
Do you have to tell your children to love you?
No, they do it all by themselves.
The commandment is redundant and highly suspect.

If you were referring to the ten commandments of the old testament
then you haven't read the whole bible.

The bible can't be read. It must be deciphered.
Each verse must have it's context reconstructed and everyone comes up with a
slightly different context and meaning.

First you have to ask yourself what sin is.

Sin means to error, to miss the bulls eye in target practice.

If that's what sin was then we would simply try and try again.
You don't condemn someone just for some mistakes.
Clearly that's not what sin means.
It means to break a rule and that can be done out of confusion and
misinformation. If it's misinformation then it's god's fault for not
explaining things properly in the first place because a perfectly created
and fully informed human does not make such a big mistake.
It is said that we were created perfect in the garden of Eden. If that's not
true then God can't be perfect because a perfect God does not create
imperfect beings because then we would not be in his image.

Sin is a word which simply means
to break the rules of a ruler god.

No, thats more mindless crap you have been told by men trying to take
control over you.

In that case sin is just a word which was made up by the religious elite and
we should simply ignore it.

Rules which we have never really
understood in the first place.

There are only two rules:

1. Love God
2. Love your neighbor

How many lifetimes would it take to truly understand the breadth and
depth of meaning in those two simple rules?

I have no problem with the second rule, it's just the first one that's suss
(see above re. love).
If that rule is suss then all of scripture is suss.

Granted some have obvious moral values but
it's the ones that are not in the Ten Commandments which are in many

cases

arbitrary and nonsensical but people don't think of questioning them.

No one knows exactly what Jesus said.
The only way you could possibly know what Jesus really said all those
centuries ago is if someone was standing right next to him with a pen and
paper when he said it and if we now had that very piece of paper. Even then
his exact meaning could have been misconstrued by the writer. Look at how
many people today are misunderstanding each other. That's why there are so
many arguments and conflicts going on all the time.
Over the period of 2000 years the misunderstandings would have been
amplified hundreds of times while superstitious people put their own
religious slant on the texts as they were translating, transcribing and
copying them.
Face it. The pilot has long fallen out of the plane.

They
just follow everyone else and assume that they're from our Creator also.

The

only way to learn how to live a decent and peaceful life is to learn and
know the ins and outs of everything, not to just try to live a scared
sheepish life and hope for the best.

Loving your neighbor when he is not particularly lovable is no task
for the "scared" or the "sheepish"!!

Religion is based on truths, half truths and lies.
The above just happens to be one of the truths.
They put in the truths as bait to get the followers in.
The mistake most people make is to adopt some parts of religion and the
bible and reject others. The problem with this is that you don't know which
parts are true so you end up confused and in a quandary.
This plays right into the hands of religious elites because your rational
thought process crashes and you end up in their hands.
The best thing to do is reject religion completely and go by your own
morals.
Those who have low morals won't listen to religion anyway so what's the
point of having religion in the fist place?
It's only confusing the good folk.

If that worked then sin would have been eliminated in the Christian

sector

Sin is not the point. Go back and read the words of Jesus. The much
larger point is to love God and your neighbor. If you achieve that
then sin will take care of itself.

See further above regarding Jesus' words and also about loving god.

possibility that we've all been duped.

But its so clear that Jesus' two commandments are not an attempt to
dupe us.

I know you want to believe it's what Jesus said.
It's only human to want to believe.
But I think you already have enough morals to continue your life with.
And If those are the only two important commandments then why is it
necessary to read the rest of the bible?
Do you enjoy clouding that which was meant to be simple?

There's no certainty that as perfectly created creatures we ever made

any

mistakes in the first place.

Its the fundamental concept of the faith. God is perfect. We are not.

We were allegedly made perfect in Eden. (if that's true that is).
Therefore the concept of faith and salvation is ludicrous.
If we were created as perfect creatures by a perfect God then why would he
need to test us? It would only be if he had some doubts about our perfection
and a true God can have no doubts.
If it was because of having given us a choice then why would he give a
choice to creatures that are only going to be used for mindless worship?
God is either completely insane or mankind has been making up stories all
these centuries. Considering that man loves making up and embellishing
stories I'd go with the latter.

If you disagree then you need to explain why "perfect" humans are so
unhappy and fail so miserably.

Because we've been deceived by religion into making ourselves miserable.
Obviously we were never designed to be perfect in the fist place so there's
no need for salvation.

It's only the non sequiturs in the bible that
assert that.

non sequiturs? how so? The Bible seems to me to accurately describe
the human condition. The Bible tells me, if nothing else, that people
have not changed in five thousand years.

But most people have changed and for the better.
The sickos are now in a minority.
The only reason we get the impression that they're in a majority is because
we have something call a news media.
There are only some sick sectors of society and one of those is the one that
feels the need to give away all their power and will to an invisible and
perfect deity who degrades us at every turn.

We might be doing a great job.

Yes, just what I was thinking as I watched yet another news story
about a priest molesting a child.

We must be doing a GREAT job!

See above re. the news media.
When was the last time we had an inquisition?

In any case what Adam and Eve did has nothing to do with us so we

have

nothing to worry about as long as we live a decent life.

We are descendents of Adam and eve possessing the same desire to take
control away from God.

What makes you believe that?

There's no evidence that god has been in control of this world to begin
with.
The lunatics have been running the asylum all along.
The only ones who can save us is ourselves otherwise we will never learn.
We just need a little more teamwork to further isolate the remaining
tyrants.

We may have evolved to be morally superior to A&E after all this time.
It might only be religion that's keeping our society sick.

or rather its false religion that is a symptom of a sick society.

Pretty much all religions are cults.
They nearly all place a monopoly on god and they all claim to be the only
ones with the truth.

They are only arbitrary if you don't understand.

That is a classic exclusivist line by christians which can only cause
division in society.

Love causes division in our society?

It's only lies in love's clothing.
God has never followed through on any promise of love in contemporary times
and that he did 2000 years ago are merely passion based claims written down
on paper.

Another ploy by fallen angels and their bible.

Love is a ploy?

If you believe it's love just because it says so in the bible then you've
been scammed good and proper. See the bottom of my webpage to see what love
is.
There's very little real love in the bible. It's all just sickly sweet hot
air, moustache twirling and empty promises.

The question is do christians truly understand them or are they just

wanting

to stay in their sheep safety zone?

Truth is still truth whether people understand it yet or not.

Yes but do you really know what the absolute truth is?
No one knows the truth and no organisation has a monopoly on the truth.

Maybe we're not. Maybe we're a mixture of races from different genetic
experiments by different advanced off world factions.
That would explain why so many disagree on simple things and why we have

much trouble getting along with each other.

Or perhaps "learning how to get along with each other" is the first
step to Loving each other which after all was Jesus' command to us two
thousand years ago.

You can't command someone to learn something.
They'll either learn or they won't.
In this environment we are naturally forced to learn.
Why then would god also need to command us to learn on top of that?
The commandment is redundant and silly.
It wasn't Jesus or god that issued the commandment but man out of his dumb
control freak nature.

its been two thousand years. In that time its
been reprinted everywhere, all across the world. Do you think people
someday will ever decide to listen?

They have been listening to a degree. But they've been spending most of
their time putting their own slant and context on it and then ramming it
down each others throats.
--
Andrew.
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
- Albert Einstein
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/ajwerner/
.

User: "Icarus"
Title: Re: Huh?	26 Dec 2003 01:25:57 PM

Mark Fox wrote:
....

Its more like the light house keeper who warns you that you are
heading towards the rocks in stormy seas at night. [God] is not
going to stop you from certain death and destruction but he is
warning you. If you ignore him, then he will certainly feel
bad for you and weep with you as he watches your ship break up
on those rocks and you drown in the sea.

etc...
Why can't you see that this is just childish mythology? It all goes
back to humans trying to impose their will and their morals on other
people. Nothing more. There's nothing wrong with trying to persuade
others that your own morality is the correct one and everything else
is wrong, but to dress it up with supernatural nonsense only detracts
from the argument, rather than supporting it (amongst rational people,
at least).
.

User: "Mark Fox"
Title: Re: Huh?	26 Dec 2003 06:07:07 PM

"Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com> wrote

Mark Fox wrote:

...

etc...

Why can't you see that this is just childish mythology?

Its called "free will".
.

User: "Andrew W"
Title: Re: Huh?	26 Dec 2003 08:03:46 PM

"Mark Fox" <mark_fox_@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a258afb5.0312261607.186bf5cb@posting.google.com...

"Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com> wrote

Mark Fox wrote:

...

etc...

Why can't you see that this is just childish mythology?

Its called "free will".

But then he commands us to love him and commands cancel out free will.
Face it. The commands came from man.
--
Andrew.
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
- Albert Einstein
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/ajwerner/
.

User: "Mark Fox"
Title: Re: Huh?	28 Dec 2003 03:39:09 PM

"Andrew W" <nosp@m_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message news:<3fece885$0$18751$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>...

"Mark Fox" <mark_fox_@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a258afb5.0312261607.186bf5cb@posting.google.com...

"Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com> wrote

Mark Fox wrote:

...

etc...

Why can't you see that this is just childish mythology?

Its called "free will".

But then he commands us to love him and commands cancel out free will.
Face it. The commands came from man.

The word "command" is a poor one. I use it often in error. A better
word is "advice". God advises us that following two simple rules is
much much better for us than not.
.

User: "Andrew W"
Title: Re: Huh?	28 Dec 2003 05:50:20 PM

"Mark Fox" <mark_fox_@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a258afb5.0312281339.7fce8477@posting.google.com...

"Andrew W" <nosp@m_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message

news:<3fece885$0$18751$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>...

But then he commands us to love him and commands cancel out free will.
Face it. The commands came from man.

The word "command" is a poor one. I use it often in error. A better
word is "advice". God advises us that following two simple rules is
much much better for us than not.

But it still doesn't nullify the original observation.
If God is so wonderful then we will love him.
We don't need to be advised to give our love.
It comes naturally.
It would only be if God feared that we might not love him or if he had an
ego problem but a true God has no fears or ego.
Humans have much fear and ego but do they have to advise their children to
love them?
Would children be a threat to adults if they didn't?
Would it be any skin off their nose?
It's obviously part of the religious control program.
The bible is obviously mostly inspired by man.
I'm surprised no one picked it up before.
.

User: "Icarus"
Title: Re: Huh?	28 Dec 2003 04:17:42 PM

Mark Fox wrote:

God advises us that following two simple
rules is much much better for us than not.

But it's still your god who made the rules, and promises that he will
torture us for the rest of eternity if we get it wrong, is it not?
.

User: "Thunder"
Title: Re: Huh?	03 Jan 2004 11:00:34 AM

"Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com> wrote in message
news:bsnktl$ei890$1@ID-165613.news.uni-berlin.de...

Mark Fox wrote:

God advises us that following two simple
rules is much much better for us than not.

But it's still your god who made the rules, and promises that he will
torture us for the rest of eternity if we get it wrong, is it not?

Normally I wouldn't bother much with trolling
threads that are cross posted into Christian
and Atheist newsgroups. However, there are
some interesting misconceptions that arise in
subsequent posts such as this one.
Rules? Yes, God made rules but which "rules"
were you talking about and why do you think you
are involved? Are you talking about the
Ten Commandments, the 613 Mosaic Laws? Unless
you have covenanted with God to the terms of
the agreement, these Commandments and Mosaic Laws
will not help you the way they would help the
Hebrews. Of course they are *good* to follow
even if you don't get the same benefit that the
Hebrews got. What you need to understand is
that God knows that we cannot keep the "rules"
on our own strength. We need the strength of
God within us. The Hebrews couldn't do it.
They were scattered as promised because they
didn't keep the covenanted terms of the agreement.
However, God still loved us and gave us a better
Covenant, a New Covenant, one where the "laws"
of God are written upon our hearts instead of
upon tablets of stone. This New Covenant has
been opened to all of mankind as we talk,
the Gospel has been spread around the world.
This leads us to the next point, punishment.
You use the term "torture" when you refer to
the consequences of the choices in life that
*you* have made. Yeshua (Jesus), one who has
lived among us, will be the Judge at the end
who will consider everyone according to what
they have been given. Those that have never
been given the opportunity of entering the
New Covenant will be judged according to the
natural laws that God has given to all mankind.
I don't pretend to know the outcome of this
judgment but I understand that it certainly
will not go well for those who have opposed
God in this life. It stands to reason that
if you opposed God in this life, then there
is no reason for you to expect to live with
the Holy God in the next life. So where does
this leave those who will not live with God?
Hell is a place of separation that is reserved
for these people. In summary, if you can't
live by God's terms, you just don't get to
live with God into eternity. IMHO, it will
be the *knowledge* that you have missed out
on the chance to live with God into eternity
that will be a torture, a torture of your own
making, not of God's.
Thunder
.

User: "Icarus"
Title: Re: Huh?	04 Jan 2004 03:32:20 PM

Thunder wrote:

"Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com> wrote:

Mark Fox wrote:

God advises us that following two simple
rules is much much better for us than not.

But it's still your god who made the rules, and
promises that he will torture us for the rest of
eternity if we get it wrong, is it not?

The two that Mark enunciated in this thread; Love God, and Love thy
neighbour. Mark seems to think that a god exists, who made these
rules, and requires us to follow them, and if we don't follow them
then his god will torture us for the rest of eternity. That's why
(apparently) I am involved (although of course, it's nonsense :-) ).
Essentially I was trying to highlight how disingenuous it is of Mark
to say that his god "advises us" that it's "better for us" to follow
the rules than not, as if his god were a helpful bystander, when in
fact it's (supposedly) him that set everything up this way and knew
even before the universe was created exactly who would and would not
be convinced of his existence.
I had to snip the rest of your post, for which I apologise, but it was
all based on an assumption that a god exists, and is therefore
meaningless to me.
.

User: "Mark Fox"
Title: Re: Huh?	26 Dec 2003 04:17:32 PM

"Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com> wrote..

Mark Fox wrote:

...

Why can't you see that this is just childish mythology? It all goes
back to humans trying to impose their will and their morals on other
people.

No one is imposing their will on you or anyone else. You are free to
do as you please. This is the message of Jesus. Just don't blame
others when disaster comes.

Nothing more. There's nothing wrong with trying to persuade
others that your own morality is the correct one and everything else
is wrong,

Who said that everything/everyone else is wrong? Are you perhaps
reacting to some other experience? The analogy of the light house
keeper has nothing to say about other people being right or wrong.
Show me any other philosophy ever invented by man that is rational but
yet rejects the two laws of Christianity, love God and love your
neighbor. I haven't found one yet.

but to dress it up with supernatural nonsense only detracts
from the argument, rather than supporting it (amongst rational people,
at least).

So, ignore the supernatural component of the argument if you wish. The
argument still prevails that it is good to love God and to love your
neighbor.
People (some of them rational) have been believing in God for many
thousands of years but if you are not comfortable dealing with such a
concept then focus on the second commandment, love your neighbor. That
second commandment alone will take a lifetime to fully comprehend much
less fulfill.
I find it curious how simple and rational advice such as this can give
you so much pain and distress. Unless of course you are really
reacting to some other experience in your life.
.

User: "Andrew W"
Title: Re: Huh?	26 Dec 2003 08:45:35 PM

"Mark Fox" <mark_fox_@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a258afb5.0312261417.7a6bcb6f@posting.google.com...

Why would it take so long? Love your neighbour simply means to care about
your fellow humans as you would for yourself and help them whenever they
need help. That's not hard for a decent caring person.
It doesn't mean that you have to ask them all out on a date.
--
Andrew.
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
- Albert Einstein
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/ajwerner/
.

User: "Mark Fox"
Title: Re: Huh?	28 Dec 2003 03:14:54 PM

"Andrew W" <nosp@m_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote...

"Mark Fox" <mark_fox_@yahoo.com> wrote...

Therefore the commandments could not have come form a wise and
unconditionally loving god.

Which commandments? the two that Jesus gave us in Matthew 22:37,
Mark 12:28, and Luke 10:25? The ones where God himself revised
and clairified the entire old Testament (the Law and the Prophets):
1. Love God
2. Love you neighbor

People (some of them rational) have been believing in God for many
thousands of years but if you are not comfortable dealing with such a
concept then focus on the second commandment, love your neighbor. That
second commandment alone will take a lifetime to fully comprehend much
less fulfill.

Simple?
During your travels you come across a poor man begging for a dollar.
Do you give him a dollar? Would that be love? What if he needed that
dollar for medicine for his child and he is out of work? What if he
is lying and instead he overdoses and dies because of drugs purchased
with that dollar you gave him?
Is there a risk that a young mother and her baby will be injured by
the car behind you as he tries to get around you because you are
blocking his path while you are stopped in your car on the street
talking to that poor man? Would putting that young mother at risk be
an act of love on your part? Would the poor man be showing love in
this case?
You are the President at war. Would it be Love to kill ten thousand of
the enemy nation in a seven day battle with nuclear weapons in order
to save 100 thousand of your own troops in a in a two year long and
bloody combat? Would it be love if you called the enemy before hand
and explained that you had such a bomb and would they please give up
before the bomb is used so no one has to get hurt?
Not really so simple is it?
Maybe thats why God in an earlier time gave ten much simpler examples
of his holy law? Perhaps its because he knew that we weren't ready to
fully understand. The question is: Are we ready now?
.

User: "Andrew W"
Title: Re: Huh?	28 Dec 2003 05:32:10 PM

"Mark Fox" <mark_fox_@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a258afb5.0312281314.54a69462@posting.google.com...

"Andrew W" <nosp@m_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote...

"Mark Fox" <mark_fox_@yahoo.com> wrote...
they
need help. That's not hard for a decent caring person.
It doesn't mean that you have to ask them all out on a date.

I said help him, not become his analyst and doctor.
As long as you make an effort, you've done your good deed.
It's the simple things we do that make a difference.
There are many good people in this world. Good deeds are a shared thing.
God dosen't expect you to take one man onto your shoulders alone.

Is there a risk that a young mother and her baby will be injured by
the car behind you as he tries to get around you because you are
blocking his path while you are stopped in your car on the street
talking to that poor man? Would putting that young mother at risk be
an act of love on your part? Would the poor man be showing love in
this case?

God didn't make us psychic.
Only use powers which you have been given.
Don't try to use ones you weren't.
You won't score points for trying to be superhuman.

You are the President at war. Would it be Love to kill ten thousand of
the enemy nation in a seven day battle with nuclear weapons in order
to save 100 thousand of your own troops in a in a two year long and
bloody combat? Would it be love if you called the enemy before hand
and explained that you had such a bomb and would they please give up
before the bomb is used so no one has to get hurt?

Yes. God kills and tortures masses all the time so it must be love.
We learn from our Master's examples, do we not?

Not really so simple is it?

No but we weren't exactly created to be Einsteins were we?
Like I said. We can do only what we were given the capabilities to do.

Maybe thats why God in an earlier time gave ten much simpler examples
of his holy law? Perhaps its because he knew that we weren't ready to
fully understand. The question is: Are we ready now?

Well after 2000 years many of us 'have' actually evolved but we still
haven't been given an update on the original "Duh!" based commandments which
is a bit suspicious don't you think?
Maybe God 'has' flown the coup and the lunatics 'have' been running the
asylum all this time after all.
.

User: "bob young"
Title: Re: Huh?	28 Dec 2003 03:51:06 AM

Andrew W wrote:

"Mark Fox" <mark_fox_@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a258afb5.0312261417.7a6bcb6f@posting.google.com...

....or do it in the name of ANY imaginary god!

--
Andrew.

Imagination is more important than knowledge.
- Albert Einstein

Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/ajwerner/

User: "Mark Fox"
Title: Re: Huh?	28 Dec 2003 03:36:43 PM

bob young wrote

Andrew W wrote:

"Mark Fox" <mark_fox_@yahoo.com> wrote...

...or do it in the name of ANY imaginary god!

I mostly just ignore religion but I have investigated lots of gods.
Jesus is by far the best one I can Imagine! I say that without
comment on whether those other gods are false or not. I simply don't
know. I don't really care. All I know is that Jesus is God come to
Earth in the form of a man. He came because we are of great value to
him. Upon his death he turned the most profound evil, the torture and
murder of an innocent man, into a profoundly good thing, the offer of
salvation to all people and I gladly accept his offer.
.

User: "Andrew W"
Title: Re: Huh?	28 Dec 2003 04:59:12 PM

"Mark Fox" <mark_fox_@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a258afb5.0312281336.78afd30d@posting.google.com...

All I know is that Jesus is God come to
Earth in the form of a man. He came because we are of great value to
him.

Yep. That's why he made us so dumb and egotistical.
High dumbness = high value.
Yep. Makes sense.

Upon his death he turned the most profound evil, the torture and
murder of an innocent man, into a profoundly good thing,

Yep. That was truly good.
Umm, what was the good thing about it again?
Well, he must have succeeded because all the evil in this world is well and
truly gone!
Yep. A job well done!
Praise the Lord!

the offer of
salvation to all people and I gladly accept his offer.

I accept it too!
I'm not sure that I understand what it entails, and it did allegedly happen
2000 years ago from what I'm told but it sounds very profound, heart
wrenching and biblical so I'm in, that's for sure!
Let's go and preach it to the world!
Maybe they'll understand it!
.

User: "Icarus"
Title: Re: Huh?	26 Dec 2003 07:59:57 PM

Mark Fox wrote:

"Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com> wrote..

Mark Fox wrote:

...

Its more like the light house keeper who warns you that you
are heading towards the rocks in stormy seas at night.
[God] is not going to stop you from certain death and
destruction but he is warning you. If you ignore him, then
he will certainly feel
bad for you and weep with you as he watches your ship break
up

Why can't you see that this is just childish mythology? It
all goes back to humans trying to impose their will and their
morals on other people.

No one is imposing their will on you or anyone else. You are
free to do as you please. This is the message of Jesus. Just
don't blame others when disaster comes.

It's simply a matter of observation that religions try to recruit more
followers and try to tell everyone else what they should believe and
how they should behave.

Nothing more. There's nothing wrong with trying to persuade
others that your own morality is the correct one and
everything else is wrong,

Who said that everything/everyone else is wrong?

Obviously if you think something is morally right then you must think
the alternative(s) morally wrong.

Are you
perhaps reacting to some other experience? The analogy of the
light house keeper has nothing to say about other people being
right or wrong.

We're threatened with "disaster", we're warned that we're "heading
towards the rocks". Why would certain behaviour lead towards disaster
if it's not wrong?

Show me any other philosophy ever invented by man that is
rational but yet rejects the two laws of Christianity, love
God and love your neighbor. I haven't found one yet.

Surely any belief system that includes the concept of a god must be a
religion rather than a philosophy? Not sure what your point is here.
If you're talking about religious belief systems, then plenty of gods
in history have been feared rather than loved.

but to dress it up with supernatural nonsense only detracts
from the argument, rather than supporting it (amongst
rational people, at least).

So, ignore the supernatural component of the argument if you
wish. The argument still prevails that it is good to love God
and to love your neighbor.

Err... the idea of a god *is* the supernatural component...

I'm perfectly comfortable with the concept that gods are invented by
people, and that they've been inventing them for thousands of years.
And yes, I already do aspire to that kind of philosophy.

I find it curious how simple and rational advice such as this
can give you so much pain and distress. Unless of course you
are really reacting to some other experience in your life.

I don't see anything rational about adults believing in fairy tales...
but it doesn't cause me pain and distress, more like amusement and
bewilderment at people's gullibility.
.

User: "Mark Fox"
Title: Re: Huh?	28 Dec 2003 03:25:13 PM

"Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com> wrote

Mark Fox wrote:

"Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com> wrote..

Mark Fox wrote:

God is vengeful and likes to make you suffer when you do wrong.

Its more like the light house keeper who warns you that you
are heading towards the rocks in stormy seas at night.
[God] is not going to stop you from certain death and
destruction but he is warning you. If you ignore him, then
he will certainly feel
bad for you and weep with you as he watches your ship break
up

Why can't you see that this is just childish mythology? It
all goes back to humans trying to impose their will and their
morals on other people.

No one is imposing their will on you or anyone else. You are
free to do as you please. This is the message of Jesus. Just
don't blame others when disaster comes.

It's simply a matter of observation that religions try to recruit more
followers and try to tell everyone else what they should believe and
how they should behave.

Jesus hated religion. He called the religious leaders, "You brood of
vipers". He ignored most of the human fabricated religious rules of
his day, never bothered anyone who wasn't interested in what he had to
say, never took a dime for his trouble, and ultimately died for his
trouble. I'm talking about God not religion.
.

User: "Icarus"
Title: Re: Huh?	28 Dec 2003 03:58:48 PM

Mark Fox wrote:

Jesus hated religion. He called the religious leaders, "You
brood of vipers". He ignored most of the human fabricated
religious rules of his day, never bothered anyone who wasn't
interested in what he had to say, never took a dime for his
trouble, and ultimately died for his trouble. I'm talking
about God not religion.

The Jesus character may or may not have existed, but you're still
talking about people telling other people what is the right and wrong
way to behave, and how you will (supposedly) be punished (by eternal
torment) if you choose the wrong way. It's disingenuous of you to
suggest otherwise.
.

User: "Mark Fox"
Title: Re: Huh?	29 Dec 2003 08:11:43 PM

"Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com> wrote

Mark Fox wrote:

No one is imposing their will on you or anyone else. You are
free to do as you please. This is the message of Jesus. Just
don't blame others when disaster comes.

It's simply a matter of observation that religions try to recruit more
followers and try to tell everyone else what they should believe and
how they should behave.

Religions (all of them) are crap. Don't waste your time with them.
I'm talking about Jesus, what he did and what he said.

Nothing more. There's nothing wrong with trying to persuade
others that your own morality is the correct one and
everything else is wrong,

Who said that everything/everyone else is wrong?

Obviously if you think something is morally right then you must think
the alternative(s) morally wrong.

We are talking about loving your neighbor. Are you proposing that not
loving your neighbor is morally right? It seems obvious to me that
Jesus' advice to us is morally right and the alternative is just sad
and pitiful.

Are you
perhaps reacting to some other experience? The analogy of the
light house keeper has nothing to say about other people being
right or wrong.

We're threatened with "disaster", we're warned that we're "heading
towards the rocks". Why would certain behaviour lead towards disaster
if it's not wrong?

Its the same reason that you will suffer terribly if you stick your
hand in a lighted stove. That behavior is not morally wrong but it is
very stupid and you will get badly hurt.

Show me any other philosophy ever invented by man that is
rational but yet rejects the two laws of Christianity, love
God and love your neighbor. I haven't found one yet.

Surely any belief system that includes the concept of a god must be a
religion rather than a philosophy?

What's the difference between religion and philosophy?

Not sure what your point is here.
If you're talking about religious belief systems, then plenty of gods
in history have been feared rather than loved.

Jesus' point was that you should not have to fear God.

but to dress it up with supernatural nonsense only detracts
from the argument, rather than supporting it (amongst
rational people, at least).

So, ignore the supernatural component of the argument if you
wish. The argument still prevails that it is good to love God
and to love your neighbor.

Err... the idea of a god *is* the supernatural component...

If you reject the supernatural component I assume that the first
commandment becomes a fantasy in your mind. Christianity is still a
good thing even if it was just the object of a fantasy.

People (some of them rational) have been believing in God for
many thousands of years ....

I don't see anything rational about adults believing in fairy tales...
but it doesn't cause me pain and distress, more like amusement and
bewilderment at people's gullibility.

Gullibility usually leads to loss and despair. Christians, true
Christians, (not to be confused with the many charlatans wondering the
Earth) are built up by their faith. They are happier and more secure
than those who live in fear and bewilderment.
.

User: "bob young"
Title: Re: Huh?	28 Dec 2003 03:50:13 AM

Mark Fox wrote:

"Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com> wrote..

Mark Fox wrote:

...

Why can't you see that this is just childish mythology? It all goes
back to humans trying to impose their will and their morals on other
people.

No one is imposing their will on you or anyone else. You are free to
do as you please. This is the message of Jesus. Just don't blame
others when disaster comes....

I suppose jesus or allah was responsible for the disaster [earthquake] in
Iran last week!
Idiot

Nothing more. There's nothing wrong with trying to persuade
others that your own morality is the correct one and everything else
is wrong,

Who said that everything/everyone else is wrong? Are you perhaps
reacting to some other experience? The analogy of the light house
keeper has nothing to say about other people being right or wrong.

Show me any other philosophy ever invented by man that is rational but
yet rejects the two laws of Christianity, love God and love your
neighbor. I haven't found one yet.

but to dress it up with supernatural nonsense only detracts
from the argument, rather than supporting it (amongst rational people,
at least).

So, ignore the supernatural component of the argument if you wish. The
argument still prevails that it is good to love God and to love your
neighbor.

If the correct assumption that the god and all that goes with it is pure
mythology then loving this mythology is plainly stupid.
One can love a neighbour without superstition.

People (some of them rational) have been believing in God for many
thousands of years but if you are not comfortable dealing with such a
concept then focus on the second commandment, love your neighbor. That
second commandment alone will take a lifetime to fully comprehend much
less fulfill.

I find it curious how simple and rational advice such as this can give
you so much pain and distress. Unless of course you are really
reacting to some other experience in your life.

User: "Mark Fox"
Title: Re: Huh?	28 Dec 2003 03:29:54 PM

bob young wrote

Mark Fox wrote:

"Icarus" wrote..

Mark Fox wrote:

...

Why can't you see that this is just childish mythology? It all goes
back to humans trying to impose their will and their morals on other
people.

No one is imposing their will on you or anyone else. You are free to
do as you please. This is the message of Jesus. Just don't blame
others when disaster comes....

I suppose jesus or allah was responsible for the disaster [earthquake] in
Iran last week!

Unless the quake happened because Iran was testing an underground
nuclear device then I wouldn't say that anyone is responsible.

but to dress it up with supernatural nonsense only detracts
from the argument, rather than supporting it (amongst rational people,
at least).

So, ignore the supernatural component of the argument if you wish. The
argument still prevails that it is good to love God and to love your
neighbor.

If the correct assumption that the god and all that goes with it is pure
mythology then loving this mythology is plainly stupid.

One can love a neighbour without superstition.

True.

Idiot

I thought your name was "Bob"??
.

User: "Andrew W"
Title: Re: Huh?	28 Dec 2003 05:35:55 PM

"Mark Fox" <mark_fox_@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a258afb5.0312281329.7b8c5fdc@posting.google.com...

I suppose jesus or allah was responsible for the disaster [earthquake]

Iran last week!

Unless the quake happened because Iran was testing an underground
nuclear device then I wouldn't say that anyone is responsible.

ROTFL!
Good one Mark.

One can love a neighbour without superstition.

True.

Idiot

I thought your name was "Bob"??

ROTFL!
.

User: "bob young"
Title: Re: Huh?	29 Dec 2003 08:21:07 AM

Mark Fox wrote:

bob young wrote

Mark Fox wrote:

"Icarus" wrote..

Mark Fox wrote:

...

Why can't you see that this is just childish mythology? It all goes
back to humans trying to impose their will and their morals on other
people.

No one is imposing their will on you or anyone else. You are free to
do as you please. This is the message of Jesus. Just don't blame
others when disaster comes....

I suppose jesus or allah was responsible for the disaster [earthquake] in
Iran last week!

Unless the quake happened because Iran was testing an underground
nuclear device then I wouldn't say that anyone is responsible.

but to dress it up with supernatural nonsense only detracts
from the argument, rather than supporting it (amongst rational people,
at least).

So, ignore the supernatural component of the argument if you wish. The
argument still prevails that it is good to love God and to love your
neighbor.

If the correct assumption that the god and all that goes with it is pure
mythology then loving this mythology is plainly stupid.

One can love a neighbour without superstition.

True.

Idiot

I thought your name was "Bob"??

no way of getting out of it that way - you are the idiot!
.

User: "Mark Fox"
Title: Re: Huh?	29 Dec 2003 06:21:43 PM

"Andrew W" <nosp@m_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote>...

"Mark Fox" <mark_fox_@yahoo.com> wrote in message

I suppose jesus or allah was responsible for the disaster [earthquake]in
Iran last week!

Unless the quake happened because Iran was testing an underground
nuclear device then I wouldn't say that anyone is responsible.

ROTFL!
Good one Mark.

One can love a neighbour without superstition.

True.

Idiot

I thought your name was "Bob"??

ROTFL!

bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:

no way of getting out of it that way - you are the idiot!

Perhaps, but I'm also funny. You on the other hand are dull and boring.
.

User: "bob young"
Title: Re: Huh?	28 Dec 2003 03:46:13 AM

Icarus wrote:

Mark Fox wrote:

...

etc...

Why can't you see that this is just childish mythology? It all goes
back to humans trying to impose their will and their morals on other
people. Nothing more. There's nothing wrong with trying to persuade
others that your own morality is the correct one and everything else
is wrong, but to dress it up with supernatural nonsense only detracts
from the argument, rather than supporting it (amongst rational people,
at least)....

Fully, totally agree...nicely put
bob
hong kong
"It would be very nice if there were a God who created the world and was
a benevolent providence, and if there were a moral order in the universe
and an after-life; but it is a very striking fact that all this is
exactly as we are bound to wish it to be."
[Sigmund Freud]
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Huh?	26 Dec 2003 04:02:52 PM

On 26 Dec 2003 11:07:47 -0800,

(Mark Fox) posted
to alt.atheism:

"Andrew W" <nosp@m_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote..

That's a bit like what a robber says - your money or your life.

Its more like the light house keeper who warns you that you are
heading towards the rocks in stormy seas at night.

The lighthouse keeper didn't create the rocks, the storm, the ship or
you. If h