In article <4244ac62$1_5W.0.0.1> "Precision" <precision@Usenet.com>
writes:

"cactus" <baldemar.malnariz@ubadlands.edu> wrote in message
news:KgF0e.2991$gI5.325@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

Presumably the literalists would have Aurochsen on Noah's Ark. These
were
large, wild, vicious and probably untamable creatures. It would be
interesting to imagine not only finding pairs of them but going to
Poland,
capturing them and bringing them to the Ark. Kangaroos would probably
have been easier, except for the water transport.

For more on the Aurochs, see
http://users.aristotle.net/~swarmack/aurohist.html

{...}

One who believes in the historical Biblical account of Noah's Ark has to
make a leap of faith that God used His supernatural powers to properly
subdue any beasts in confinement that would pose a threat to the Ark and
its
safety.

Oh, that's easily the least of the enormous list of miracles that
one must accept. The first that comes to my mind is simply
gathering up all the species -- there are probably three million
species of beetles alone -- to getting ahold of the huge number
of animals, such as wombats and wallabies, which seem never
to have lived on the same continent as Noah, to fitting these
millions of species into a tiny boat, to maintaining temperatures
acceptable to both penguins and tropical birds, to the time
required to go around adequately feeding and cleaning up after
several million creatures.

And even if you were to replace "millions" with "thousands" in
the above paragraph, it would still require miracle stacked on
miracle to sustain them all for several months. All with a crew
of a dozen or so.

And then, of course, God had to arrange a sudden genetic explosion
to produce the vast genetic diversity found in today's
species, a diversity which had been reduced to nothing by squeezing
those species through the genetic bottleneck represented by having
only one pair of ancestors.

And then he had to arrange for all those wombats and wallabies
to somehow make the decades-long trek back to South America
and Australia without leaving any fossil trace of their
ever having been in Eurasia.

No, keeping the Aurochs quiet would be a snap. Arranging for the
several thousand other requisite miracles would be a bit more.

"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:d22dn5$31u$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...

In article <4244ac62$1_5W.0.0.1> "Precision" <precision@Usenet.com>
writes:

"cactus" <baldemar.malnariz@ubadlands.edu> wrote in message
news:KgF0e.2991$gI5.325@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

Presumably the literalists would have Aurochsen on Noah's Ark. These
were
large, wild, vicious and probably untamable creatures. It would be
interesting to imagine not only finding pairs of them but going to
Poland,
capturing them and bringing them to the Ark. Kangaroos would probably
have been easier, except for the water transport.

For more on the Aurochs, see
http://users.aristotle.net/~swarmack/aurohist.html

{...}

One who believes in the historical Biblical account of Noah's Ark has to
make a leap of faith that God used His supernatural powers to properly
subdue any beasts in confinement that would pose a threat to the Ark and
its
safety.

Oh, that's easily the least of the enormous list of miracles that
one must accept. The first that comes to my mind is simply
gathering up all the species -- there are probably three million
species of beetles alone -- to getting ahold of the huge number
of animals, such as wombats and wallabies, which seem never
to have lived on the same continent as Noah, to fitting these
millions of species into a tiny boat, to maintaining temperatures
acceptable to both penguins and tropical birds, to the time
required to go around adequately feeding and cleaning up after
several million creatures.

The Ark was likely the size of a multi-storey Naval aircraft carrier or
city-sized cruise ship. It was definitely NOT a "tiny boat." God gave Noah
the "technology" for lack of a better term to build a seaworthy ship of huge
proportions.

And even if you were to replace "millions" with "thousands" in
the above paragraph, it would still require miracle stacked on
miracle to sustain them all for several months. All with a crew
of a dozen or so.

God could have caused food to materialize just as he caused "manna" to
materialize for the Israelites later, and water to literally gush out of
rocks so the Israelites did not die of thirst in the wilderness. God wrote
the scientific laws that control our reality and has transmuted the physics
in times past to perform miracles for those He loves.

And then, of course, God had to arrange a sudden genetic explosion
to produce the vast genetic diversity found in today's
species, a diversity which had been reduced to nothing by squeezing
those species through the genetic bottleneck represented by having
only one pair of ancestors.

Again, divine intervention at work...

And then he had to arrange for all those wombats and wallabies
to somehow make the decades-long trek back to South America
and Australia without leaving any fossil trace of their
ever having been in Eurasia.

Why not teleport them there? And if God has the power to do anything then
you may ask why go through the drama of altering physics to do anything that
otherwise would be impossible for humans? I believe the answer is right
there in your Bible. God didn't have to go through the trouble of allowing
humans to live at all. He could have just scrapped the whole Eden project
and started fresh.

The reason God chose to take humans on a historical journey from Eden
through the dark valleys of human history between then and now, has much to
do with God's giving humans freedom of will when He could have made them
mere automatons without will.

In giving humans free will, a steep learning
curve is implied. Humans had to lean through trial and error how to live
together in a peaceful civilization to one another's benefit. The whole
exercise from the Ark to other miracles of the Bible was in essence staged
by God (for lack of a better term, and I use the word "staged" in a very
serious context where the whole process of the Ark and other miracles taught
valuable lessons to mankind that paved the way for future generations).

Human history is indeed a divine drama that is intended to not only teach
mankind powerful lessons needed for them to live FOREVER as continuously
advancing intelligent free-willed beings, but for purposes we tiny
spiritually undeveloped humans cannot even begin to fathom the depths of.

No, keeping the Aurochs quiet would be a snap. Arranging for the
several thousand other requisite miracles would be a bit more.

Cary, you made an eloquent argument but let me give you a quick and dirty
analogy to where your reasoning fails. Take ten to the power of a trillion.
Such an unfathomable number to scientists, for if the power were less than
100 it would exceed all of the atoms in the known universe. And yet a God
who could create ALL dimensions of space/time including this tiny
insignificant universe (as compared to the grand scheme of things) has an
intelligence so advanced that ten to the trillionth power is equivalent in
simplicity to God as 1+1=2 is simple to you and I.

Precision wrote:

"Vic Sagerquist" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns962273EC93EE1vicman@127.0.0.1...

on 23 Mar 2005 in alt.atheism, Precision dropped trou, farted, whirled,
then shouted:

<snip>

Well, this started out interesting, but quickly fell apart as it lead to
this:

For further information on the destiny of humans and this planet, I
highly recommend a thorough reading of the entire Bible. Learn the
truth about human history from its beginning to eternal future. This
is one book that has been neglected even though its timeless wisdom
can only point to its origin from the most advanced extra-terrestrial
intelligence that we could possibly imagine.

Gobbledygook. The bible is a book of fables and mythology. Granted it
does contain some historical characters, but it is mixed with a teeming
pile of magical garbage that has no bearing on modern society. However,
I
hope a lot of people take your advice and read the bible thoroughly. The
bible is one of the greatest reasons to deconvert to atheism ever.

I respectfully reply that you are completely mistaken. The Bible is a
blueprint for eternal life.

No, it's not. Your "god" is a great destructor who's not to be trusted.

Those whose lives it has changed will attest to that fact. However, the
Bible contains truths that you might find unpalatable. We fear what we do
not understand. Nonetheless I strongly disagree that the Bible is "one of
the greatest reasons to reconvert to atheism ever." I know, because
reading the Bible raised my awareness of greater realities in space and
time, gave me the sure knowledge that this life is the beginning of a
remarkable journey that will last many eternities, and "converted" me
from atheism to the truth that God does exist.

So you decided to take the easy way out.