Religions > Atheism > I believe the traditional views of Buddhist beliefs are dead...
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"V" |
| Date: |
02 Feb 2006 10:03:16 AM |
| Object: |
I believe the traditional views of Buddhist beliefs are dead... |
I believe the traditional views of Buddhist beliefs of escaping
samsara are dead as far as practical application for the most part of
society. To escape rebirth is impractical for the vast, vast majority
of Buddhists. You must essentially give up your current life, never
handle money, do any business, beg for food, give up entertainment of
any kind, live celibate, live perfectly devoid of passion, possessions,
cravings, desires, ill will and a host of other things...and then
escaping samsara it is 'still' only a theory at best. Then this process
must be repeated for many, many lifetimes to come. Am I against
Buddhism by writing this? No... I love Buddhism, but I also love the
truth. It was reported that Jesus said in his sermon on the mount...
"what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give
him a stone?" So, if you are asking for bread, I will give bread on
this topic and not a stone.
I'll give you an example you can all relate to. If you are reading this
you have no chance of escaping rebirth...you are too full of passion to
escape anything. What you 'should' be doing as a self proclaimed
'serious Buddhist practitioner' is; instead of reading and writing on
the computer you would be meditating on the three liberation's. By
meditating on emptiness, formlessness and passionlessness, this will
allow you, with a few lifetimes of diligent practice, to recognize the
three liberation's of the ego and the dharma as being empty, the dharma
as formless and this eventually the recognition of living is an
unworthy desire as our existence is characterized by suffering. Another
example? I posted a thread at ES on clarity of goals with your Buddhist
practice. It discussed the importance of taking the right path to reach
such goals and having a clear picture of this in your mind and actions.
I outlined my goals and the tools I use to reach those goals and asked
for others to do the same. What was the response? Last time I looked it
was nil. Thousands of members here and no one can express their goals
and path with their Buddhist practice?
Practitioners that will escape samsara can best be described as barley
leaving a trace or ripple on their life and slipping by unnoticed when
they depart to avoid rebirth. Others will argue they 'are noticed' and
this is what distinguishes them from being reborn again. In either
case, it is a 'specialized life' that allows them to escape samsara and
the 'why is it so' is not as important as the 'how it is so.' Every
step they take barely has weight on the earth and is more of a caress
than a step. Their breathing hardly disturbs the air and every breath
in and out has reverence in it and mindfulness. TNH describes this in
his peace is every step book. Such practitioners are passionless and
desireless and as such they are tethered to nothing in life, not even
the thought of escaping it. Their actions are of no karmic consequence
and after some lifetimes of this type of practice they can slip away
unnoticed. Myself, I can only practice this concentrated technique for
a few seconds or minutes at the most and then lose it. My practice is
not authentic and is forced and ego based, whereas these practitioners
practice is authentic and done without the use of force.
But, as I told you before, I am not concerned with developing this type
of 'escape' practice and only played around with it for my own
edification. The trouble is with many a practitioner is they say they
are serious, but in reality are just playing around and deluding
themselves. They might practice Buddhism as a hobby or to pass time or
to escape the troubles in their life, but that is it. Just burning
incense and chanting is not going to do much when it comes to escape
vehicles. Oh well, it may be a useful pastime to escape a delusional
life? Of the three unwholesome roots, delusion is the most important
one. For it is basic to any successful Buddhist practice to dispel such
delusions, otherwise you can see little else clearly. Karl Marx said -
religion is the opium of the masses. Many of us need such 'drugs' as a
way to not face thoughts and fears of dying. This is what many of us
run from with our various 'concentrations' and 'distractions' we tie
our minds up with trying to avoid the thought of death. Better to
accept life, as well as death and then you can be at peace with it as
part of natural law. This frees the mind to look for truth instead of
drugs.
Personally, I would rather see Buddhism be used in realistic and
practical ways to develop a life of peace generation, both inner and
outer peace in this world. Now, this is a real goal that all can
achieve with such a practice. This way living in such a peace based
world will not be viewed as hell, but as joy and compassion. Sure there
are bumps and bruises along the way for all, but it goes with the
territory of life. When I kayak and flip I get beat up on the
rocks...it goes with the territory, but I enjoy the rest of the ride.
If you look at the population it is not declining...escaping rebirth
very impractical. I guess it is a fantasy for most, just as heaven is a
fantasy to those not believing in Christian doctrine. In either
practice though, it is much better to be peace based and make this a
life of acceptance and peace instead of one to dread, a life that one
would not mind living indefinitely and one that you were happy to live
in any case. Unfortunately when I talk of a practice based on inner
peace most people are dumbfounded, or as one Buddhist practitioner
asked me, 'what is your great attraction to inner peace and happiness?"
- as he could see little benefit in such a practice.
A snip from Bhikkhu Bodhi on suffering:
"The Buddha does not merely touch the problem of suffering
tangentially; he makes it, rather, the very cornerstone of his
teaching. He starts the Four Noble Truths that sum up his message with
the announcement that life is inseparably tied to something he calls
dukkha. The Pali word is often translated as suffering, but it means
something deeper than pain and misery. It refers to a basic
unsatisfactoriness running through our lives, the lives of all but the
enlightened. Sometimes this unsatisfactoriness erupts into the open as
sorrow, grief, disappointment, or despair; but usually it hovers at the
edge of our awareness as a vague unlocalized sense that things are
never quite perfect, never fully adequate to our expectations of what
they should be. This fact of dukkha, the Buddha says, is the only real
spiritual problem."
V writes:
Yes, the above is true...but Bhikkhu Bodhi also touches on an important
concept that can help us find peace in this life when he writes:
"a basic unsatisfactoriness running through our lives, the lives of all
but the enlightened."
You see, a person cannot be at peace within and with all with their
current life if they are always trying to escape life out of fear and
hatred for living it and feeling regret for it as a burden unjustly
imposed on them. No, such a person is not an enlightened being nor is
he or she even pointed in the right direction for reaching
enlightenment - other than to say he or she needs to look in the
'opposite' direction from where they are looking. An old saying tells
us, "A diamond cannot be polished without friction." So, by applying
the 'rule of opposites', the once unenlightened mind, can use this
'friction' or former despair to help them turn around to find peace.
This is why I always stress to look at the extremes and every option in
between to find the answer. For if one direction doesn't work, the
opposite direction or a blending of the two just might. Unfortunately,
when 'self rules self' the mind is stubborn and fixated on the being
right and there are few options to try when the ego rules the roost.
Develop 'self without self' and look for universal truth for the answer
you seek. The truth is that which doesn't not change, whereas 'self'
always changes.
Mixing the Eastern and Western philosophy is tough sometimes as the
East puts mind before heart and the West tends to put heart before
mind. If we go back to the basics of Buddhism we can check our
progression as to why there is any dissatisfaction in our progress for
finding peace. In Buddhist threefold training we train in moral
discipline, we train the mind and we train in wisdom. The training in
moral discipline or 'precepts' brings one enough initial peace to
advance to the other disciplines which require more work. Training the
mind helps concentrate it as well as calm it, so one may see things in
clear light with wisdom training. But without removing the basic
obstacles to our growth, we cannot go onto more advanced training
successfully. For wisdom is the final destination for the enlightened
mind, as you can have concentration and calmness, but still not possess
wisdom or enlightenment. Calmness and concentration are prerequisites
to enlightenment, they are not guarantees of enlightenment. For
enlightenment we need to bring the heart and the mind together for
balance. When trained in properly, these three areas help with
discerning truth and being at peace with it and this quality of being
at peace with ourselves as well as with others is the foundation for
enlightenment.
I have only brought all this up to help dispel some delusions in
practitioners. As I said above, the three unwholesome roots of
delusions, greed and hate are very basic to a practice. Out of these
three, delusion is the foundational root, for without seeing delusions
for what they are, you cannot distinguish the other two unwholesome
roots of greed and hate. But this is only restating the eightfold path
of right actions, right thoughts, right view, right intentions, right
livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration.
Isn't it kind of sad though a Christian - Buddhist has to lecture you
on such topics? After all a Christian - Buddhist is not a 'real'
Buddhist? Well, this mix of Christian - Buddhist is one of the reasons
I can write on such topics. It allows me, as I said above, to mix heart
and mind in balance and see things from a different perspective. As I
have mentioned before, a wooden Buddha will not get through a fire, a
clay Buddha will not get through the ocean and a bronze Buddha will not
get though a furnace. But, a clay Buddha can get through the furnace
and turn to stone, a wooden Buddha can float across a river and a
bronze Buddha will withstand a fire. So I use many tools to find peace
and do not limit myself. I do not write on this topic to try to force a
change on your journey or goals with your Buddhist practice. Only you
can do that and that change must come from within you as a real and
authentic change in your nature. But, if you have no goals or path to
follow, maybe this post will 'awaken you' to finding one? I make no
claim to have the 'last word' on this subject. I can only share how I
practice and find peace with it in this life. When we put our peace
first we will be awakened to a new life that we can 'live' with
serenely.
In the book "The Miracle of Mindfulness." it says: "If while washing
dishes we think only of the tea that awaits us...then we are not
'washing the dishes.' If we can't wash the dishes, chances are we won't
be able to drink our tea either." So it goes with a person that
focusses their attention always to the future at some distant hope of
finding the happiness through death to replace the lack of happiness
that they cannot find in the present. I prefer to practice mindfulness
of my life in the present moment. As such, I work to make the present
moment peaceful when I have a say in the matter and make it one that I
do not need to escape from through fixating on the future hopes of
escaping life. And when I do not have a say in the matter, I am at
peace with this road also. I practice for inner peace, but also it
might be termed enlightenment. Buddhism provides this tool, which is
just one out of the many tools I use for peace development. For once we
have found a contentment within and with all and are at peace - we are
progressing on the road to enlightenment. You can also tell when you
have "arrived" by your practice telling you so. Does your practice
revolve around actually practicing what you have learned to generate
peace within or are you on a never ending journey of always looking and
never finding?
I look at pain and suffering as part of natural law. I accept it as
part of life and look at this as growing pains. Humans are not singled
out in this area as every animate and most inanimate object suffer from
impermanence as well. While inanimate objects do not suffer pain for
the most part they would if they felt the changes happening to
them...the rocks crumbling or the earth splitting. Nothing can live
without experiencing pain - it is natural law and not just karma.
Without this pain of impermanence we could not digest food nor could we
even experience taste. The embryo could not grow or rain fall from the
sky. Sometimes we can get blinded to the big picture when we
concentrate on the minutia. I find many problems can be solved with a
simple acceptance of what IS. Now, an area that humans can cause great
suffering is through their actions. In this area we do have some
control over our suffering and the suffering of others as all our
actions have consequences and many of our actions are producing
consequences that rob of us and others of peace.
Once I am at peace, I can share with others about finding peace for
themselves, which is the secondary reason I practice. I have no
interest in practicing Buddhism for extinguishing reincarnation. Such
"fear based" reasons for being a Buddhist are not authentic or natural
- the persons actions are based on fear or negative consequences
otherwise they would not do them. My actions are based on inner peace
and if I stray - there goes my peace - it is my choice. I enjoy life
and realize that due to natural law, suffering comes about as part of
the process and I accept it as a fair trade off for the privilege of
living, so I would enjoy any reincarnation if given the privilege.
Buddhism helps makes this trade off of life and pain more in my favor
by lending me support to live a life at peace in the present. I do not
practice Buddhism to earn merit for the next life - I practice Buddhism
for my own peace generation in THIS LIFE.
If you would like to try another path to peace other than destruction
of ones existence, try the path of the Bodhisattva. The world is ripe
with those living in misery. There are no shortage of customers for you
to offer peace to. And as you instill seeds of peace within others, you
plant the same seeds and water these seeds within you as well. As you
give so you receive. I hope you can find the same contentment within
your life as I have found through Buddhism. and if you still wish to
work towards extinguishing samsara, then by all means go in that
direction. Give up your current life, all attachments and tethers and
start on a new life this very instant. In the bible, Luke 16:13 tells
us, "No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one,
and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the
other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon" This goes the same for those
seeking the path of extinguishing rebirth, you cannot serve two
masters...so better get to work ... once you have decided which path to
take.
Good Luck,
V (male)
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| User: "Jim07D6" |
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| Title: Re: I believe the traditional views of Buddhist beliefs are dead... |
02 Feb 2006 12:52:44 PM |
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"V" <vfr44@aol.com> said:
I believe the traditional views of Buddhist beliefs of escaping
samsara are dead as far as practical application for the most part of
society. To escape rebirth is impractical for the vast, vast majority
of Buddhists. You must essentially give up your current life, never
handle money, do any business, beg for food, give up entertainment of
any kind, live celibate, live perfectly devoid of passion, possessions,
cravings, desires, ill will and a host of other things...and then
escaping samsara it is 'still' only a theory at best. Then this process
must be repeated for many, many lifetimes to come. Am I against
Buddhism by writing this? No... I love Buddhism, but I also love the
truth. It was reported that Jesus said in his sermon on the mount...
"what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give
him a stone?" So, if you are asking for bread, I will give bread on
this topic and not a stone.
I'll give you an example you can all relate to. If you are reading this
you have no chance of escaping rebirth...you are too full of passion to
escape anything.
<...>
Here is a response, with my comments at the end, if you find it too
long to read right now:
"What Took You So Long?"
From What Took You So Long? An Assortment of Life's Everyday Ironies,
Sheldon Kopp, photographs by Claire Flanders, Science and Behavior
Books, Palo Alto, CA, 1979.
Introduction
We are all tempted to try to understand the seemingly senseless
suffering that life provides for each of us. People have always
searched for ways to overcome their helplessness. Long before Buddha
was enlightened or Christ crucified and resurrected, ordinary men and
women already struggled to free themselves from this wheel of sorrows,
to reach a place beyond this vale of tears.
In India, old, old stories still are told of a Hindu holy man named
Narada who devoted his life to attaining the spiritual liberation of
Nirvana. Tied to the slowly turning wheel of Samsara, he had been
trapped too long in the unending cycle of birth, life, death, and
rebirth. He wanted only to free himself from attachment to Maya, the
illusion that is life, so that at last he might be released from the
bondage of everyday existence.
In seeking Nirvana, Narada chose Bhakti-Yoga as his personal path. He
had set himself a difficult task, but there is no easy way to attain
Nirvana. In order to find union with God, Narada went to live simply
and alone on a mountaintop where he could devote himself to
uninterrupted meditation on the Divine Being. After years of austere
and reverent concentration, the holy man had attained so high a level
of spiritual liberation that he invited the fond attention of one of
the three aspects of the Universal Lord.
And so it was that one day in that remote and barren hermitage, before
the dedicated old man's eyes there appeared the object of his
devotion, Vishnu, the Preserver and Sustainer of the Universe.
Delighted with Narada's fulfillment of his many vows, Vishnu said to
him: "I have come to grant you a boon. Ask of me whatever you wish and
it will be yours."
Joyfully, Narada replied: "O Lord, if you are so pleased with me,
there is one favor I would ask. I would like you to explain to me the
secret of the power of Maya, the illusion by which at the same time
you both reveal and conceal the nature of the universe."
Vishnu responded more gravely: "Good Narada, other holy men before you
have asked to be granted that same boon. Believe me, it never works
out very well. What would you do with comprehension of my Maya anyway?
Why not ask for something else? You can have anything you like."
But Narada insisted that nothing would do but that he should come to
learn the power of Maya so that he would forever after understand the
secret of how attachment to illusion creates needless suffering.
"Very well, then," answered Vishnu, "have it your own way." An
ambiguous smile played along his beautifully curved lips. "Come with
me to the place where you will learn the power of Maya."
Together they left the pleasant coolness of the sheltering hermitage
roof, descended the steep wooded slope, and headed out beyond the
valley. Under a mercilessly scorching sun, Vishnu led Narada across a
barren stretch of desert. It was many hours before they came to a
place of shade. Vishnu stretched out on a cool spot on the sand,
saying: "It is here that you will learn the power of Maya."
Narada was about to sit at the Lord's feet to be instructed when
Vishnu said: "I am so thirsty. Before we begin, I would like you to
take this cup and go fetch me some cool water."
Always ready to serve his master, Narada took the empty cup and went
off over a rise in search of water. Just beyond that dune,
unexpectedly the holy man came upon a fertile valley. At the near edge
of the abundantly cultivated fields was a small tree-shaded cottage.
Beside it was a well. Delighted at his good fortune, Narada knocked at
the cottage door to ask permission to fill his cup from the well.
But the door was opened by a maiden so beautiful that the old man
immediately became enthralled. Lost in the enchantment of her eyes, he
stood there too dazed to remember why he had come to the cottage in
the first place.
But no matter. She seemed as taken with him as he with her. Inviting
him to enter with a voice so compelling that he could not refuse, the
maiden made him welcome. Introducing him to the rest of her family,
she insisted that he stay for dinner. Though he had just arrived as a
stranger, Narada soon felt as if he were at home among good and
trusted friends. Easily transformed from unbidden visitor to
house-guest, he stayed on as one comfortable day followed the next.
Inevitably, the holy man and the maiden fell in love and after a time
they married.
Twelve years passed. When his wife's father died, Narada took over the
farm. The crops were more abundant each season, and during those years
three beautiful children were born to this loving couple. Narada had
everything that anyone might want. This was the happiest time of his
entire life.
The twelfth year turned out to be a time of natural disasters. An
extraordinarily violent rainy season resulted in flooding that
destroyed the crops and swept away the thatched huts. One night the
farm-hands fled. The next morning the torrents rose until even the
high ground of Narada's own cottage had to be abandoned.
Their youngest child perched on his shoulder, one hand supporting his
wife while with the other he led his two older children, Narada waded
out into the swirling thigh-high waters. Losing his footing in the
slippery mud, he lurched forward, pitching the smallest child from his
shoulder headlong into the swelling stream. In a desperate grab to try
to save the baby, Narada released his hold on his wife and their other
children. The baby was swept away in the rushing waters, and the
others along with him.
None could be saved. All were gone. How could it be? Narada had been
the happiest of men. He had had a lovely wife and three wonderful
children. Now all were drowned. He had become the most successful
farmer in the whole valley, and now the crops were gone as were his
friends and his home.
Weeping in bewilderment and feeling more sorrow than he had
experienced in all of his life, Narada stood dazedly midst the waters
swirling up above his knees. Alone and devastated, he knew that
everything and everyone he cared about were lost to him forever.
And then all at once the swirling currents were gone. Looking down at
the dry sand beneath his feet, Narada saw that the only water that
remained filled a small cup that unaccountably appeared in his hand.
He was startled to hear a familiar voice. Looking up, just ahead of
him he saw Vishnu stretched out in a shady spot on this barren desert.
Smiling serenely, Vishnu asked teasingly: "Sweet Narada, what took you
so long?"
My comment:
While Narada's failure to let go of attachment is exemplified by his
being captivated (captured) by the life he found in the valley, it is
also true that his being in a struggle to "reach a place beyond this
vale of tears" was equally fatal to his hopes. As you point out ("If
you are reading this you have no chance of escaping rebirth...you are
too full of passion to escape anything"). There is an inherent,
self-defeating contradiction involved in any -ism that sets out
letting go of attachment as a means to an end, when the end is being
free of attachment! Clearly you are aware of this.
So, the question which immediately presents it self is, should a
person abandon this -ism, since it is inherently self-defeating.
I say, yes.
But interestingly, the way by which one *comes* to abandon this -ism,
and what one is left with after abandoning it, can give a hint at what
it is like to have let go of attachment. Or not.
My example is your reaction to reading the Narada story. If you find
yourself laughing a bit at the end, at the futility of it all, but
then with a feeling of release from the "problem", I think you get a
glimpse of what letting go of attachment feels like. Having a sense
that Narada's reaction to Vishnu's question is to laugh at the
realization that life captured him, gives a similar glimpse.
And that's about as far as I think I want to go, because too much
analysis of this issue is self-defeating.
--- Jim07D6
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: I believe the traditional views of Buddhist beliefs are dead... |
02 Feb 2006 11:44:59 AM |
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"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1138896196.908374.278950@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I believe the traditional views of Buddhist beliefs of escaping
samsara are dead as far as practical application for the most part of
society.
Goody for you.
Go tell someone who cares.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: I believe the traditional views of Buddhist beliefs are dead... |
03 Feb 2006 06:53:14 PM |
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On 2 Feb 2006 08:03:16 -0800, "V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in alt.atheism
I believe the traditional views of Buddhist beliefs of escaping
samsara are dead
So is your brain, dumbfuck. Post your ***** in the Jesus circle jerk
groups, or somewhere else that gives a flying *****.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters.
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| User: "Uncle Buck" |
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| Title: Re: I believe the traditional views of Buddhist beliefs are dead... |
04 Feb 2006 12:17:08 PM |
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On 2 Feb 2006 08:03:16 -0800, "V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote:
I believe the traditional views of Buddhist beliefs of escaping
samsara are dead as far as practical application for the most part of
society.
Quick comment: I wasn't aware that was an imperative. Something "to be attained
eventually", perhaps, but as far as I can tell, not everyone wants to stop
incarnating. And as far as I can tell, there is nothing wrong with that.
--
L8r,
Uncle Buck
************************************************
"'True Perfection' would not be sadistic enough
to create anything other than its exact equal."
************************************************
Bonus sig:
"Every Buddha just needs some Buddha to love..."
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