RainLover wrote:

I'm curious... Like I said, we just bought a house for my
sisterinlaw..... While negociating, we told the seller that the
HIGHEST she was approved for was $160,000 and were able to get the
priced dropped a full $15,000. Of course, she was really approved for
$250,000, but we said, the bank wrote the 160k pre-approval letter,
and our agent fought hard to get the $15,000 off the price.

Should we all go to prision for 'defrauding' the seller?

Was this "unethical" in your eyes? I can't wait to hear what her
holiness has to say... I mean, you've
made it QUITE obvious that you would NEVER do such a horrible thing...
right?

James, Seattle

I think you're just digging yourself a big hole here, James.

not at all. I don't recall being one of the atheists who claims to walk
on water...remember, I'm the one who says there isn't any general
difference between atheists and theists aside from the theists' belief in
god.

Does that mean that it is permissable for atheists to cheat theists, because
they are no different? Is it then as permissable for a theist to cheat an
atheist?

If it is OK for James to defraud the storeowner by lying to him about being
a Christian, why wasn't it OK for the storeowner to reserve discounts for
Christians?

DianaC wrote:

"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:9g%te.7628$jX6.6132@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...

DianaC wrote:

-snip-

I have found it funny that on the one hand some theists figure that
atheists can't be ethical because 'ethics come from god', and atheists
get all bent out of shape about that; and these same atheists make the
same wholesale judgment about theists; that they are universally
immoral and unethical, and that there is something magical about not
believing in a deity that confers reason, ethics and morals upon a
person. These same atheists, (like James) who will commit fraud in
order to get a better price on furniture, and justify it by imagining
scenarios in which the storeowner 'would have' stuck it to them had
they known about atheism of the buyer....even after the storeowner had
already given him a fair price and a discount, not caring whether
James was atheist or not.

I get the idea that James was simply reverting to his theist ways from
20 years ago, he was overcome by his surroundings...not that that's any
excuse for what he did.

Judging folks by their religion or lack of it can lead to problems.

-snip-

Therefore, when I see an atheist target a Christian *because* he is
a Christian, and gleefully relates a dishonest and unethical deed,
chortling over it, and getting a boatload of support and 'attaboys'
from some of the very people who have been telling me how much
better atheists are than theists, then it seems like an appropriate
instance to zero in on....

yeah, i can see how that would bug you!

Yes. But I don't think you have quite figured out why yet.

sure...your irony meter is getting a workout.

And since I have never once accused, or figured, that atheists have
a lesser ethical standard than theists do, and in fact have landed
all over theists who do accuse atheists of not having any ethics, I
figure that it's appropriate for me to point out that Rainlover is
shooting himself, and indeed the atheists he represented when he DID
this, in the butt.

He isn't representing anyone other than himself.

Since he was acting AS AN ATHEIST at the time he committed the fraud,
that is, his specific motive was to 'get' the storeowner BECAUSE the
store owner was theist, then he was representing atheism, in a way.
However, I have have already stated that I didn't think his actions
reflected on anybody but himself. The storeowner, however, would be
quite justified in thinking that he represented a group of people out
to get him. after all, isn't that what a bunch of people on this
thread are doing? Justifying James' actions against this storeowner
simply because he belonged to a group they don't like? After all, the
storeowner did not attempt to cheat James at all, or treat him badly
in any way.

the store owner thinks James is a good Christian buddy, remember? and
as you said elsewhere, since he claimed to be Christian, he *was*
Christian at the time....since the claim is the only way we have to tell
the Christian from the non-Christian.

as you well know, the only general difference between thesists and
atheists is that atheist don't have a belief in a god.

"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:NLHte.6655$hK3.6616@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...

DianaC wrote:

"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:cnYse.6138$jX6.2000@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...

snip

So, if the store owner professes to be Christian, and gives an extra
discount to help out an alleged Christian missionary, that sojnds to me
like greed for spreading the Christian message.

You still think he lost money? sheesh!

We KNOW he lost money. If Rainlover had been happy with his "good price'
and the 10% discount he had already received, the store owner lost money;
that ten percent. But, Rainlover lied. The store owner lost 30% of the
sales price. That's what we KNOW he lost.

We also know that the standard industry markup is between 30 to 39%...so
the odds are really good that Rainlover got that furniture at the owner's
cost. Which means that the owner didn't make any money at all on that
deal. In the retail industry, 'not making any money' really means you
lose.

Face it.

You sure seem to know a lot about the used furniture business...

I did the research. Have you? I spoke to three used furniture store owners,
and did the research on several furniture store organizations and business
sites.

one place that I shop frequently sells used furniture, with an infinite
markup...the St Vincent de Paul store, which gets it's merchandise for
free. Some of it comes from me. I think this happens to be closer to the
"industry standard" for used stuff sold at retail.

I think you need to look again at that store....and again, look at your own
experiences. "Cost' is more than just what actually purchasing the
merchandise runs to; it also includes all the upkeep. Advertising, display
space, any rentals, personnel...

And that's pretty much how I run my ebay sales, I get stuff free or very
cheap, and sell it for what the market will bear.

There is no "standard" markup on used goods.

You think there isn't. There is. Most used furniture stores do NOT get their
stuff for free.

Rainlover lied. He admits it. He admits to being unethical.

Y'know, there is no justification for that. None. I don't care who does
it or who the target is.

So what's the big deal to you (or me)? he has to live with himself. You
know the feeling. We all do.

The 'big deal' is that he bragged about it and expects (and is receiving)
approval from almost everybody in here. So far, his approval rating is
running at least four to one...and four people so far have decided that his
actions were not ethical or proper---and one of those doesn't want to admit
it because she'd rather chew nails than agree with me, and another, while
acknowledging Rainlover's lack of ethics, thinks that my daring to criticize
them is more heinous than his cheating in the first place.


Call it, oh, a reality check. Dishonesty is dishonesty, no matter who does
it.

"Katt" <seruhshjaudn@dfhu.net> wrote in message
news:T3Kse.26303$%21.20850@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...

"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:YVJse.30631$yw4.

It was compassion for someone he admired and wanted to help out, on top
of already having treated the customer with honor.

*****. His behaviour was *freemasonry*, pure and simple: that's why he
has his shop full of Jesus-crap. If he had *genuine* 'compassion', then he
wouldn't give a ***** about a customer's professed 'religious' affiliation.

He didn't. Remember, he had already given the good price and a discount
without that...he only aided Rainlover because of the story about the
specific person getting the furniture.

Like I said: he was *investing*. Just *too bad for him* he's such a sap
that -- like so many investors! -- he let his greed get in the way of his
intellect...

GREED?????

The store owner sold that furniture at his cost. He LOST money on the deal,
most likely. He did it because he admired and wanted to help someone. Yes,
there was greed involved, but not on the part of the STORE owner.

Good grief, you people are ethically upside down!

"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:hVHse.5979

It's discrimination on the part of the store owner, and dishonesty on the
part of rainlover.

And you can imagine how the store-owner was patting himself on the back for

"helping out 'wun uv arr own kaand' rather than giving a good price to "wun
o' theym thar *cammyanists*..."

-- and how he went home dreaming about the 'reward' he'd get in 'heaven' for
being 'generous' to a 'Christian' customer...!

Let's be frank: he wasn't 'defrauded': he voluntarily made what he thought
was a *good investment* offering *short-term and long-term benefits*. In
short, it was his *emotional and metaphysical greed* that made him do what
he did.

Katt.

DianaC wrote:

Let's see....the standard markup in retail stores, especially furniture
stored with big ticket items, is (according to three internet sites and my
old business courses) between 30 to 39%. Which means that RainLover got that
furniture at, or close to, cost. That's just at the cost of purchasing the
furniture wholesale, not the cost of purchase, display space, salary,
advertising and everything else. Add that in, and RainLover got that
furniture BELOW cost. In other words, he got a donation under false
pretenses, by committing fraud.

how did you find out what the markup is on used furniture? he said
it's a second hand furniture store. My experience with the markup of
used stuff is that if you don't sell it for twice what you paid for
it, you won't be in business long.

That may be discrimination, but not on the part of the store owner.

It's discrimination on the part of the store owner, and dishonesty on
the part of rainlover.

Kind of like tit-for-tat....

<zamboni30000@knowshpamatyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:tm86b15hbnob1ski69i26ogesd7qpelmqc@4ax.com...

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:08:52 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:

"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:ort5b1d2hd7h7oseos0jhm2pecvueo3un2@4ax.com...
<snip to>

I asked if there was anyway they could help out a Christian trying to
help out another Christian......

BAM, a total of 30% off instead of the 10%.

This Christian thing ROCKS!!!! I might have to put a jesus-fish on my
car for better parking places...

So much for the claim that atheists have better morals than Christians do.

So, it's OK for christians to charge non-christians 20% higher prices?
Doesn't sound like you're proving your point, does it?

I would probably get into trouble if I started giving a 20% discount
to my white customers only, donchathink?

Let's see....the standard markup in retail stores, especially furniture
stored with big ticket items, is (according to three internet sites and my
old business courses) between 30 to 39%. Which means that RainLover got that
furniture at, or close to, cost. That's just at the cost of purchasing the
furniture wholesale, not the cost of purchase, display space, salary,
advertising and everything else. Add that in, and RainLover got that
furniture BELOW cost. In other words, he got a donation under false
pretenses, by committing fraud.

That may be discrimination, but not on the part of the store owner.

I have an in law who is moving into this area at the end of the year.
She's lived overseas for 20 years, and my wife and I just bought a
house for her (her money, our power of attorney)... anyway, we're
trying to furnish it while on a tight budget.

This week we stopped into a second-hand furniture place... it was nice
enough, a huge selection, some good quality, not so bad prices....
BUT..

But they were listening to the local Christian channel (barf) and,
upon further investigation, had a photo of Jesus on the wall... you
know the one... White guy, Beard, drug-induced smile, "god-light'
creating a halo around his long hair...

Anyway, we found some nice furniture, and for a good price... we ended
up getting a total of about 10 pieces (dinning room/living room)....
THEN, our negotiations began.... The owner went down 10% cuz we were
buying a lot.. nice of him, but it got me thinkin'... what's the
special, secret-handshake price for Christians... so I started
explaining this furniture was for our Christian Sister (actually
Atheist / Buddhist) who had spent 20 years ministering in Korea
(actually, working as well as a Male to Female transexual).

I asked if there was anyway they could help out a Christian trying to
help out another Christian......

BAM, a total of 30% off instead of the 10%.

This Christian thing ROCKS!!!! I might have to put a jesus-fish on my
car for better parking places...

James, Seattle