| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"RainLover" |
| Date: |
17 Jun 2005 11:43:55 AM |
| Object: |
I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
I have an in law who is moving into this area at the end of the year.
She's lived overseas for 20 years, and my wife and I just bought a
house for her (her money, our power of attorney)... anyway, we're
trying to furnish it while on a tight budget.
This week we stopped into a second-hand furniture place... it was nice
enough, a huge selection, some good quality, not so bad prices....
BUT..
But they were listening to the local Christian channel (barf) and,
upon further investigation, had a photo of Jesus on the wall... you
know the one... White guy, Beard, drug-induced smile, "god-light'
creating a halo around his long hair...
Anyway, we found some nice furniture, and for a good price... we ended
up getting a total of about 10 pieces (dinning room/living room)....
THEN, our negotiations began.... The owner went down 10% cuz we were
buying a lot.. nice of him, but it got me thinkin'... what's the
special, secret-handshake price for Christians... so I started
explaining this furniture was for our Christian Sister (actually
Atheist / Buddhist) who had spent 20 years ministering in Korea
(actually, working as well as a Male to Female transexual).
I asked if there was anyway they could help out a Christian trying to
help out another Christian......
BAM, a total of 30% off instead of the 10%.
This Christian thing ROCKS!!!! I might have to put a jesus-fish on my
car for better parking places...
James, Seattle
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
30 Jun 2005 09:04:53 AM |
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DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
I mean, we could have decided to tatoo something, or make the
priesthood celibate, or circumcize our male children, or keep kosher,
or any number of other cultural and/or religious 'thing'. (shrug)
Mormons don't practice circumcision?
Not as a religious observance, no.
Interesting... Is it practiced for supposed health-related reasons
nonetheless, among most Mormons, or has it been deemed unnecessary
in the first place?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
30 Jun 2005 11:18:50 AM |
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"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:fru7c197qfu8n5hieue10fpt0mi5ejt83g@4ax.com...
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
I mean, we could have decided to tatoo something, or make the
priesthood celibate, or circumcize our male children, or keep kosher,
or any number of other cultural and/or religious 'thing'. (shrug)
Mormons don't practice circumcision?
Not as a religious observance, no.
Interesting... Is it practiced for supposed health-related reasons
nonetheless, among most Mormons, or has it been deemed unnecessary
in the first place?
In all honesty, the church has never addressed the issue. It all depends
upon the bigger culture, I think, and personal preference. Personally, if I
were to have more sons (and if that ever happened, consider it absolute
PROOF of deity..) I would not.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
30 Jun 2005 04:35:35 PM |
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DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
I mean, we could have decided to tatoo something, or make the
priesthood celibate, or circumcize our male children, or keep kosher,
or any number of other cultural and/or religious 'thing'. (shrug)
Mormons don't practice circumcision?
Not as a religious observance, no.
Interesting... Is it practiced for supposed health-related reasons
nonetheless, among most Mormons, or has it been deemed unnecessary
in the first place?
In all honesty, the church has never addressed the issue. It all depends
upon the bigger culture, I think, and personal preference. Personally, if I
were to have more sons (and if that ever happened, consider it absolute
PROOF of deity..) I would not.
You'd leave it up to them to decide for themselves?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
30 Jun 2005 06:38:19 PM |
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"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:j2p8c1p1cesnjnseajgsh39u6rkehrgu0r@4ax.com...
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
I mean, we could have decided to tatoo something, or make the
priesthood celibate, or circumcize our male children, or keep kosher,
or any number of other cultural and/or religious 'thing'. (shrug)
Mormons don't practice circumcision?
Not as a religious observance, no.
Interesting... Is it practiced for supposed health-related reasons
nonetheless, among most Mormons, or has it been deemed unnecessary
in the first place?
In all honesty, the church has never addressed the issue. It all depends
upon the bigger culture, I think, and personal preference. Personally, if
I
were to have more sons (and if that ever happened, consider it absolute
PROOF of deity..) I would not.
You'd leave it up to them to decide for themselves?
heh.
yup.
(Grin)
Somehow I don't think that if they had to make that decision for themselves,
that the decision would be difficult.
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| User: "Mephisto" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
28 Jun 2005 10:52:08 AM |
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On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:59:49 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:
"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:t860c19qo6h451hpcuhdd28e4up4336beh@4ax.com...
And Lo And Behold.... In order to show off his faith to me, he
lowered the price for a 'brother'.
And Lo And Behold....you took the discount and ran with it.
You're supporting a man who charges people a higher price if they
don't happen to belong to his religion? So much for equality.
Hmmmnnn.....because you don't like what the bible says morality is, you feel
perfectly justified in lying to a theist?
Why assume that the moral code you happen to approve of ('lying is a
sin') must be followed by everyone else? It's not against the law, and
whether or not it is wrong is a personal decision.
Mephisto
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
28 Jun 2005 03:57:49 PM |
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"Mephisto" <mephisto@go.away> wrote in message
news:d6s2c1dq0di1mlqegvh2bu3fqpsotf8vvu@4ax.com...
On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:59:49 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:
"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:t860c19qo6h451hpcuhdd28e4up4336beh@4ax.com...
And Lo And Behold.... In order to show off his faith to me, he
lowered the price for a 'brother'.
And Lo And Behold....you took the discount and ran with it.
You're supporting a man who charges people a higher price if they
don't happen to belong to his religion? So much for equality.
No, I"m supporting a man who gave James a 10% discount from the regular
price, and then gave him another 20% because he wanted to help a specific
missionary sister. It's his money and his merchandise. Would you be yelling
'discrimination' if the recipient of that discount was a hungry college
student trying to furnish his room? Or perhaps a family which had lost
everything to a fire? There is a difference between giving an automatic
discount to someone because of race or belief system, and giving a specific
person a hand. Had James simply claimed to be Christian and nothing else,
you might have a point. But he did not. He told the storeowner about the
specific recipient of the furniture, a Christian sister missionary who had
been ministering in Korea for twenty years. He told the storeowner that he
was getting this stuff with her money, FOR her. Thus, the discount was for a
specific person, for her. NOT just 'because he claimed to be Christian'.
Hmmmnnn.....because you don't like what the bible says morality is, you
feel
perfectly justified in lying to a theist?
Why assume that the moral code you happen to approve of ('lying is a
sin') must be followed by everyone else? It's not against the law, and
whether or not it is wrong is a personal decision.
Actually, it was against the law. Sorry about that, but recieving value;
that is, money or goods, because someone believes your lie is called
'fraud'. And it is a crime. Even in the state of Washington.
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| User: "Mephisto" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
30 Jun 2005 06:15:28 AM |
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On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:57:49 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:
"Mephisto" <mephisto@go.away> wrote in message
news:d6s2c1dq0di1mlqegvh2bu3fqpsotf8vvu@4ax.com...
On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:59:49 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:
"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:t860c19qo6h451hpcuhdd28e4up4336beh@4ax.com...
And Lo And Behold.... In order to show off his faith to me, he
lowered the price for a 'brother'.
And Lo And Behold....you took the discount and ran with it.
You're supporting a man who charges people a higher price if they
don't happen to belong to his religion? So much for equality.
No, I"m supporting a man who gave James a 10% discount from the regular
price, and then gave him another 20% because he wanted to help a specific
missionary sister. It's his money and his merchandise. Would you be yelling
'discrimination' if the recipient of that discount was a hungry college
student trying to furnish his room? Or perhaps a family which had lost
everything to a fire? There is a difference between giving an automatic
discount to someone because of race or belief system, and giving a specific
person a hand. Had James simply claimed to be Christian and nothing else,
you might have a point. But he did not. He told the storeowner about the
specific recipient of the furniture, a Christian sister missionary who had
been ministering in Korea for twenty years. He told the storeowner that he
was getting this stuff with her money, FOR her. Thus, the discount was for a
specific person, for her. NOT just 'because he claimed to be Christian'.
The OP said that he gave a discount in order to show off his faith to
a 'brother'. That's rather different to your POV.
Hmmmnnn.....because you don't like what the bible says morality is, you
feel
perfectly justified in lying to a theist?
Why assume that the moral code you happen to approve of ('lying is a
sin') must be followed by everyone else? It's not against the law, and
whether or not it is wrong is a personal decision.
Actually, it was against the law. Sorry about that, but recieving value;
that is, money or goods, because someone believes your lie is called
'fraud'. And it is a crime. Even in the state of Washington.
Don't be daft, Diana. Fraud is a deliberate attempt to gain money or
other goods by lying. In this case, it was not the intention of the
lie, it just happened as a side effect. What you were attacking was
the fact that the OP was 'lying to a theist'. That is wrong in your
opinion, which you are entitled to, but your morals are not universal.
Why not address that point instead of trying to claim that lying and
fraud are the same thing?
Lying is not illegal, no matter how much you would like to believe
otherwise. You are just trying to foist your religious morals on other
people.
Mephisto
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
30 Jun 2005 08:23:00 AM |
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"Mephisto" <mephisto@go.away> wrote in message
news:h7ome1ph662fk2r4614ac2okpd7gblb0fi@4ax.com...
On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:57:49 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:
<snip to>
The OP said that he gave a discount in order to show off his faith to
a 'brother'. That's rather different to your POV.
That's begging the question a little, isn't it? Yes, James said that he got
the discount just because he was a Christian...but that's the problem. He
didn't JUST say that he was a Christian, he embellished the story. He wasn't
JUST a Christian to the storeowner, was he? He was a Christian doing a big
favor for a Sister Missionary who had been ministering in Korea for 20
years, using her money to purchase used furniture for her.
That's slightly different.
And claiming that he got the discount just because he was Christian after
that is like claiming that J.K. Rowling gets special treatment just because
she writes children's stories.
Hmmmnnn.....because you don't like what the bible says morality is, you
feel
perfectly justified in lying to a theist?
Why assume that the moral code you happen to approve of ('lying is a
sin') must be followed by everyone else? It's not against the law, and
whether or not it is wrong is a personal decision.
Actually, it was against the law. Sorry about that, but recieving value;
that is, money or goods, because someone believes your lie is called
'fraud'. And it is a crime. Even in the state of Washington.
Don't be daft, Diana. Fraud is a deliberate attempt to gain money or
other goods by lying. In this case, it was not the intention of the
lie, it just happened as a side effect.
According to the civil codes I was just reading in both California and
Washington, that would have been true if James had refused the discount. As
soon as he accepted it, knowing that it was offered as a result of the lie,
oopsie....
What you were attacking was
the fact that the OP was 'lying to a theist'. That is wrong in your
opinion, which you are entitled to, but your morals are not universal.
Why not address that point instead of trying to claim that lying and
fraud are the same thing?
It wasn't "Lying to a theist". It was 'Lying and bragging about it because
lying to a theist is perfectly justified just because he was a theist, and
the icing on the cake was that he got a 30% discount as a result, isn't THAT
showing this stupid theist something"...especially when the theist in
question had not treated James with any disrespect, and had, by James' own
admission, already given him a 10% discount and, in James' own words, "a
good price".
And I would have objected JUST as strenuously if James had been a theist
doing the same thing to an atheist storeowner.
Lying is not illegal, no matter how much you would like to believe
otherwise. You are just trying to foist your religious morals on other
people.
Lying, when you get money as a result, is the very definition of fraud, and
that IS illegal.
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| User: "nJb" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
02 Jul 2005 01:27:51 AM |
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DianaC wrote:
"Mephisto" <mephisto@go.away> wrote in message
news:h7ome1ph662fk2r4614ac2okpd7gblb0fi@4ax.com...
On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:57:49 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:
<snip to>
The OP said that he gave a discount in order to show off his faith to
a 'brother'. That's rather different to your POV.
That's begging the question a little, isn't it? Yes, James said that he got
the discount just because he was a Christian...but that's the problem. He
didn't JUST say that he was a Christian, he embellished the story. He wasn't
JUST a Christian to the storeowner, was he? He was a Christian doing a big
favor for a Sister Missionary who had been ministering in Korea for 20
years, using her money to purchase used furniture for her.
That's slightly different.
And claiming that he got the discount just because he was Christian after
that is like claiming that J.K. Rowling gets special treatment just because
she writes children's stories.
Hmmmnnn.....because you don't like what the bible says morality is, you
feel
perfectly justified in lying to a theist?
Why assume that the moral code you happen to approve of ('lying is a
sin') must be followed by everyone else? It's not against the law, and
whether or not it is wrong is a personal decision.
Actually, it was against the law. Sorry about that, but recieving value;
that is, money or goods, because someone believes your lie is called
'fraud'. And it is a crime. Even in the state of Washington.
Don't be daft, Diana. Fraud is a deliberate attempt to gain money or
other goods by lying. In this case, it was not the intention of the
lie, it just happened as a side effect.
According to the civil codes I was just reading in both California and
Washington, that would have been true if James had refused the discount. As
soon as he accepted it, knowing that it was offered as a result of the lie,
oopsie....
I doubt you were able to ascertain that from what you read. Well
actually I don't doubt it but how about you post the links to what
you're referring to and let's see if a reasonable person would get the
same take. See if you can find a prosecutor that would even touch that case.
--
Jack
Plonked by Native American
bobo1148atxmissiondotcom
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/xmissionbobo/
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
02 Jul 2005 08:31:31 AM |
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"nJb" <none@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:da5bt2$gj1$1@news.xmission.com...
DianaC wrote:
<snip to>
According to the civil codes I was just reading in both California and
Washington, that would have been true if James had refused the discount.
As soon as he accepted it, knowing that it was offered as a result of the
lie, oopsie....
I doubt you were able to ascertain that from what you read. Well actually
I don't doubt it but how about you post the links to what you're referring
to and let's see if a reasonable person would get the same take. See if
you can find a prosecutor that would even touch that case.
I have already posted the links to the California codes, Jack, and quite
frankly, don't you think we've beaten this dead horse enough? I think James
has been whaled upon sufficiently. To be honest, I think you are correct, no
prosecutor WOULD take the case; for one thing, the victim, being Christian,
isn't politically correct. The most that would happen would be a lawsuit,
whether small claims or larger depending entirely on the amount of the
discount obtained. Were I the storeowner, I would A: figure that the
transgendered expatriot coming home deserved a break and let her keep the
discount (she wasn't the one lying, after all) and B: chalk it up to life
experience.
(shrug)
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| User: "igtheist" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
30 Jun 2005 07:57:14 PM |
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LOL! Good reply. BTW, I've been a bad boy once in a while also. I
haven't however, what ever else you may think, slept with your wife.
Really.
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
21 Jun 2005 04:34:32 PM |
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DianaC wrote:
"igtheist" <igtheist_N_O_S_P_A_M@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1119383542.984442.277640@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I understand how it is dishonest and unethical but how did you get to
greedy? He is doing this for someone else. Unless he pocketed the
discount I don't see how this is greedy. I also don't get
counterproductive. Counterproductive to what? Atheism? You do
understand that atheism isn't a moral system, don't you?
-snip-
Like I said, counterproductive. It makes it harder for me to continue to
argue with theists when they say that atheists have no morals, or that
atheism is unethical. It makes it difficult for me to say 'atheists DO have
moral codes and ethical codes, they get them from non-theist sources",
something that I have said to many theists over the years, arguments that I
have made many times.
Why would this subject cause you to change your position, or your
opinion, if indeed you understand that atheism is not a moral system?
Atheists and theists get their moral values from non-divine sources,
and our values are actually very similar...with the exception that
atheists don't have a theistic system of mythology to blame things on.
Atheism is not ethical nor unethical, it's merely the lack of belief
in god.
Maybe this can show you that we're more alike than you thought...if
you think about it, this should support your arguments with theists
that atheism does not make much difference at all in a person's values.
-snip-
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
21 Jun 2005 07:20:42 PM |
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"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:IJ%te.7635$jX6.536@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
DianaC wrote:
"igtheist" <igtheist_N_O_S_P_A_M@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1119383542.984442.277640@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I understand how it is dishonest and unethical but how did you get to
greedy? He is doing this for someone else. Unless he pocketed the
discount I don't see how this is greedy. I also don't get
counterproductive. Counterproductive to what? Atheism? You do
understand that atheism isn't a moral system, don't you?
-snip-
Like I said, counterproductive. It makes it harder for me to continue to
argue with theists when they say that atheists have no morals, or that
atheism is unethical. It makes it difficult for me to say 'atheists DO
have moral codes and ethical codes, they get them from non-theist
sources", something that I have said to many theists over the years,
arguments that I have made many times.
Why would this subject cause you to change your position, or your opinion,
if indeed you understand that atheism is not a moral system?
Evidence. Something about a 30 to 4 majority approving fraud. Dang....What
am I supposed to go on here, faith?
Atheists and theists get their moral values from non-divine sources, and
our values are actually very similar...with the exception that atheists
don't have a theistic system of mythology to blame things on.
Well, that's pretty much what I have BEEN saying. But the evidence is
mounting against that, isn't it?
Atheism is not ethical nor unethical, it's merely the lack of belief in
god.
Yeah....until a bunch of atheists come together in a consensus of opinion
about something having to do with their lack of belief, and what is
therefore acceptable behavior to those who have such a belief.
Maybe this can show you that we're more alike than you thought...if you
think about it, this should support your arguments with theists that
atheism does not make much difference at all in a person's values.
The problem is, I KNOW that 'atheism' means nothing more than a lack of
belief in a deity. That doesn't bother me. The problem is with the atheists
who do NOT believe that this is all 'atheism' means, even though they say it
as if it were some holy mantra.
After all, James certainly has some actions he took as a direct result of
his lack of belief, doesn't he? And they weren't exactly helpful to my
contention that atheists and theists are pretty much the same, ethically
speaking; they just ascribe the source of their ethics to different places.
Isn't that what you claim?
But look at the ethics exhibited in this thread.
Or rather, the lack of them.
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
21 Jun 2005 11:26:02 PM |
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DianaC wrote:
-snip-
The problem is, I KNOW that 'atheism' means nothing more than a lack of
belief in a deity. That doesn't bother me. The problem is with the atheists
who do NOT believe that this is all 'atheism' means, even though they say it
as if it were some holy mantra.
After all, James certainly has some actions he took as a direct result of
his lack of belief, doesn't he? And they weren't exactly helpful to my
contention that atheists and theists are pretty much the same, ethically
speaking; they just ascribe the source of their ethics to different places.
Isn't that what you claim?
But look at the ethics exhibited in this thread.
Or rather, the lack of them.
This is an interesting case. I think there are a lot of things going
on here that you may not have considered in the same light that
atheists see them.
First, is the long history of religious persecution of non-believers.
Like it or not, it's real, and it's not easy to forget, or to
forgive. One reason it's not easy to forget is that it just keeps on
happening. I think this probably has something to do with the
attitude of some of the atheists. It actually is a war to some
extent, and all's fair.
Another is the "tribal mentality" that humans have. This is just the
way we are, we divide people into groups of "us" and "them". In this
case the store owner is a "them" merely because he's theist, and it
takes extra effort on our part to extend our sympathy to him.
Likewise, you are a "them" so you naturally side with the store owner.
Adding fuel to the fire is the fact that we don't know what happened,
and the story from James is indeed a bit wishy washy, and then you
seem to embellish it further in the direction which suits your
argument. It's just impossible to say how the store owner would have
acted if James had said something else, such as that he was atheist
but he was helping his SIL (who could be different things depending on
his imagination and honesty). the atheists naturally assume that
James would have been treated quite differently if he said something
else, but we really don't know. All we have to go on is our own past
experiences in similar circumstances, and in case you don't know, some
of them have been hair-raising....
But like I said in another branch of this thread, now you've seen that
you have no reason to listen to us atheist hypocrites, so you might as
well just go away, and leave us alone. There's no saving us, you know.
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
22 Jun 2005 10:56:07 AM |
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"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:uL5ue.7704$NX4.6526@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
DianaC wrote:
-snip-
The problem is, I KNOW that 'atheism' means nothing more than a lack of
belief in a deity. That doesn't bother me. The problem is with the
atheists who do NOT believe that this is all 'atheism' means, even though
they say it as if it were some holy mantra.
After all, James certainly has some actions he took as a direct result of
his lack of belief, doesn't he? And they weren't exactly helpful to my
contention that atheists and theists are pretty much the same, ethically
speaking; they just ascribe the source of their ethics to different
places. Isn't that what you claim?
But look at the ethics exhibited in this thread.
Or rather, the lack of them.
This is an interesting case. I think there are a lot of things going on
here that you may not have considered in the same light that atheists see
them.
First, is the long history of religious persecution of non-believers.
Excuse me, but there is an equally long history of persecution of believers
by those who don't agree with their beliefs. Does that mean that you would
excuse unethical actions by a believer against someone who doesn't share his
belief?
Like it or not, it's real, and it's not easy to forget, or to forgive.
Hold it. I'm a Mormon. You are telling ME about the history of persecution?
(snort) Have YOU had rocks thrown at you because of your opinion about
deity? I have. Have YOU been physically shoved out of a store because the
store clerk found out what your opinion of deity was? My daughter has. Have
YOU had someone you thought was a friend find out what your opinion of deity
was, hold a cross up, back up ten feet and run like hell across the athletic
field to escape you? I have (well, actually, I was too busy laughing at that
one to get the proper attitude of 'persecuted martyr' going) Have you had
that same friend make the rest of your school career hell on earth because
of it (I stopped laughing)? Did YOUR people get driven out of not one or
two, but several homes before they finally found one that they couldn't be
driven from?
One reason it's not easy to forget is that it just keeps on happening. I
think this probably has something to do with the attitude of some of the
atheists.
Y'think? Tell me something; why, when *I* pull the 'persecution card", I
get nailed to the wall and mocked, but when you do, it's all good?
It actually is a war to some extent, and all's fair.
No. it's not 'all fair'. This is one of those 'wars' where somebody has to
simply stop, and the one that does gets to claim the superior ethical
position.
Another is the "tribal mentality" that humans have. This is just the way
we are, we divide people into groups of "us" and "them". In this case the
store owner is a "them" merely because he's theist, and it takes extra
effort on our part to extend our sympathy to him. Likewise, you are a
"them" so you naturally side with the store owner.
No, I would side with the store owner no matter what his religious opinion
was. I would side with him if he were a Santaria selling sacrificial
chickens and Rainlover was a Mormon bishop. Fraud is fraud, bigotry is
bigotry, and I don't care who is practicing it.
Adding fuel to the fire is the fact that we don't know what happened, and
the story from James is indeed a bit wishy washy, and then you seem to
embellish it further in the direction which suits your argument.
Actually, I haven't embellished it AT all. The facts are quite simple. If I
CALL those facts 'pathetic' and the story he told a 'sob story', that's my
opinion of those facts, not an embellishment of them. The facts are simple.
James lied. He told the storeowner that he was a Christian and that his
sister-in-law was a Christian missionary who had been ministering in Korea
for twenty years, when in reality James is an atheist and his sister-in-law
is a Buddhist woman who is coming home after gender reassignment surgery. He
doesn't mention what her job WAS during that twenty years, but I doubt that
she was a missionary. ;-) As a result of this story, the storeowner gave HER
(since James was buying the furniture for her with her money) a 30%
discount.
Where in any of the above is an 'embellishment'?
It's just impossible to say how the store owner would have acted if James
had said something else, such as that he was atheist but he was helping
his SIL (who could be different things depending on his imagination and
honesty).
Correct. It's impossible. I know that. YOu know that, Too bad James and
quite a number of other people in this thread don't know that. Certainly
James acted as if he DID know that, and was punishing the storeowner for
something he didn't do and wasn't given a chance to do.
the atheists naturally assume that James would have been treated quite
differently if he said something else, but we really don't know.
That is a classic defintion of bigotry, y'know.
All we have to go on is our own past experiences in similar circumstances,
and in case you don't know, some of them have been hair-raising....
I'm sure they have. As have some of mine. However, I have this habit of not
assuming that someone is going to treat me badly until they actually DO.
Odd of me, but there it is.
But like I said in another branch of this thread, now you've seen that you
have no reason to listen to us atheist hypocrites, so you might as well
just go away, and leave us alone. There's no saving us, you know.
Well, if I were attempting to save you, you might be right.
However, my purpose in THIS thread is, to be honest, pretty ignoble; it is
to gleefully point out the incredible hypocrisy of those who accuse theists
of being dishonest and bigoted crooks...when James pulled something that is
at least as nasty as any 'bad theist' story I've ever heard. (well, short of
violence)
See, I come to this with a clean conscience; I haven't ever said that
'atheists have no morals". I HAVE defended the idea that atheists can and do
have very good and strict ethical standards. I HAVE criticized theists who
screw up. I do not lie to people when bargaining for things, and I do not
withhold information that would make a difference in price. Perhaps my
training as a realtor was too strong or something, I have a real aversion to
lying when it comes to buying/selling things. Maybe it's because it's a
bigger challenge, and more fun, to get a good deal with the truth than with
a lie. So in this case, as in few others that I can think of, nobody can
accuse me of being a hypocrite. I may never get such an opportunity again,
and I'm taking full advantage of it. ;-)
.
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| User: "Misleart Chuff" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
22 Jun 2005 02:05:26 PM |
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"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:rSfue.1899$tA.1512@trnddc06...
:
: "J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
: news:uL5ue.7704$NX4.6526@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
: > DianaC wrote:
[snip]
: >> But look at the ethics exhibited in this thread.
: >>
: >> Or rather, the lack of them.
: >
: > This is an interesting case. I think there are a lot of things
going on
: > here that you may not have considered in the same light that
atheists see
: > them.
: >
: > First, is the long history of religious persecution of
non-believers.
:
: Excuse me, but there is an equally long history of persecution of
believers
: by those who don't agree with their beliefs.
You misrepresent the facts. Change the words a little, and it becomes
clear....religious types persecute those who don't follow their
beliefs - but atheists generally don't, partly due to the fact that
atheists are usually a small minority. What you're trying to do, is
imply that this "persecution of believers" is by "unbelievers"...that
is to say, atheists. This makes you a liar.
Does that mean that you would
: excuse unethical actions by a believer against someone who doesn't
share his
: belief?
Don't be ridiculous. *You* aren't being excused for your unethical
behaviour in this newsgroup, are you?
: > Like it or not, it's real, and it's not easy to forget, or to
forgive.
:
: Hold it. I'm a Mormon. You are telling ME about the history of
persecution?
: (snort) Have YOU had rocks thrown at you because of your opinion
about
: deity? I have. Have YOU been physically shoved out of a store
because the
: store clerk found out what your opinion of deity was? My daughter
has. Have
: YOU had someone you thought was a friend find out what your opinion
of deity
: was, hold a cross up, back up ten feet and run like hell across the
athletic
: field to escape you? I have (well, actually, I was too busy laughing
at that
: one to get the proper attitude of 'persecuted martyr' going) Have
you had
: that same friend make the rest of your school career hell on earth
because
: of it (I stopped laughing)? Did YOUR people get driven out of not
one or
: two, but several homes before they finally found one that they
couldn't be
: driven from?
Hah. Where did these things occur? Somewhere where your idiot cult
has made itself unwelcome, obviously (assuming you didn't just make
this crap up). You're comparing apples and oranges, nutbar.
: > One reason it's not easy to forget is that it just keeps on
happening. I
: > think this probably has something to do with the attitude of some
of the
: > atheists.
:
: Y'think? Tell me something; why, when *I* pull the 'persecution
card", I
: get nailed to the wall and mocked, but when you do, it's all good?
You get mocked, because you *aren't* being persecuted.
: > It actually is a war to some extent, and all's fair.
:
: No. it's not 'all fair'. This is one of those 'wars' where somebody
has to
: simply stop, and the one that does gets to claim the superior
ethical
: position.
So stop it, claim that "superior ethical position", if you think you
can. As long as you're here, harrassing atheists, you haven't a leg
to stand on. Crackpot.
: > Another is the "tribal mentality" that humans have. This is just
the way
: > we are, we divide people into groups of "us" and "them". In this
case the
: > store owner is a "them" merely because he's theist, and it takes
extra
: > effort on our part to extend our sympathy to him. Likewise, you
are a
: > "them" so you naturally side with the store owner.
:
: No, I would side with the store owner no matter what his religious
opinion
: was. I would side with him if he were a Santaria selling sacrificial
: chickens and Rainlover was a Mormon bishop. Fraud is fraud, bigotry
is
: bigotry, and I don't care who is practicing it.
Liar. You come here, practicing fraud & bigotry all the time....
: > Adding fuel to the fire is the fact that we don't know what
happened, and
: > the story from James is indeed a bit wishy washy, and then you
seem to
: > embellish it further in the direction which suits your argument.
:
: Actually, I haven't embellished it AT all. The facts are quite
simple. If I
: CALL those facts 'pathetic' and the story he told a 'sob story',
that's my
: opinion of those facts, not an embellishment of them. The facts are
simple.
What planet are you from? It doesn't fit the definition of sob story
at all. You can't keep the facts and your opinions straight.
: > It's just impossible to say how the store owner would have acted
if James
: > had said something else, such as that he was atheist but he was
helping
: > his SIL (who could be different things depending on his
imagination and
: > honesty).
:
: Correct. It's impossible. I know that. YOu know that, Too bad James
and
: quite a number of other people in this thread don't know that.
Certainly
: James acted as if he DID know that, and was punishing the storeowner
for
: something he didn't do and wasn't given a chance to do.
:
: > the atheists naturally assume that James would have been treated
quite
: > differently if he said something else, but we really don't know.
:
: That is a classic defintion of bigotry, y'know.
You're full of *****, and you know it.
OED:
The condition of a bigot; obstinate and unenlightened attachment to a
particular creed, opinion, system, or party.
: > All we have to go on is our own past experiences in similar
circumstances,
: > and in case you don't know, some of them have been
hair-raising....
:
: I'm sure they have. As have some of mine. However, I have this habit
of not
: assuming that someone is going to treat me badly until they actually
DO.
: Odd of me, but there it is.
Assuming that you aren't just making up those stories about how you've
been treated, you really ought to catch on to the fact that holding
bizarre beliefs, and acting on them, can sometimes be reasonable
justification for others to respond to you in a not nice way.
Atheists, on the other hand, are persecuted by you wackjobs for merely
not being like you. See the difference? I doubt it, you show your
blindness daily.
: > But like I said in another branch of this thread, now you've seen
that you
: > have no reason to listen to us atheist hypocrites, so you might as
well
: > just go away, and leave us alone. There's no saving us, you know.
:
: Well, if I were attempting to save you, you might be right.
It's obvious that your purpose is to harrass us, so don't worry about
us thinking that you might be trying to "save" us.
: However, my purpose in THIS thread is, to be honest, pretty ignoble;
Wow, a note of honesty...at least, if you leave out the rest of the
paragraph.
it is
: to gleefully point out the incredible hypocrisy of those who accuse
theists
: of being dishonest and bigoted crooks...when James pulled something
that is
: at least as nasty as any 'bad theist' story I've ever heard. (well,
short of
: violence)
Yet another set of lies. He did nothing nasty at all. He guessed
that the xian might treat other xians better than non-xians, and
proved it. If you tell someone that you share their beliefs, and they
reward you accordingly, it's their choice, eh? Grow the ***** up,
xian.
: See, I come to this with a clean conscience; I haven't ever said
that
: 'atheists have no morals".
I don't have the inclination to wade through your millions of posts,
just to check.
: I HAVE defended the idea that atheists can and do have very good and
strict ethical standards.
Care to post a cite?
: I HAVE criticized theists who screw up.
Big whoopty do.....
: I do not lie to people when bargaining for things, and I do not
: withhold information that would make a difference in price.
This is very, very difficult to believe. Your posts show me that you
aren't honest.
: Perhaps my training as a realtor was too strong or something, I have
a real aversion to
: lying when it comes to buying/selling things. Maybe it's because
it's a
: bigger challenge, and more fun, to get a good deal with the truth
than with
: a lie.
*****. At least you have enough sense not to claim that it's from
being xian.
: So in this case, as in few others that I can think of, nobody can
: accuse me of being a hypocrite. I may never get such an opportunity
again,
: and I'm taking full advantage of it. ;-)
I suspect that if one were able to dig into your past, you'd be proven
a liar and a hypocrite.
.
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
22 Jun 2005 04:50:10 PM |
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DianaC wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:uL5ue.7704$NX4.6526@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
-snip-
But like I said in another branch of this thread, now you've seen that you
have no reason to listen to us atheist hypocrites, so you might as well
just go away, and leave us alone. There's no saving us, you know.
Well, if I were attempting to save you, you might be right.
However, my purpose in THIS thread is, to be honest, pretty ignoble; it is
to gleefully point out the incredible hypocrisy of those who accuse theists
of being dishonest and bigoted crooks...when James pulled something that is
at least as nasty as any 'bad theist' story I've ever heard. (well, short of
violence)
Sounds to me like it's not nearly as bad as the stuff you have to put
up with from other theists!
See, I come to this with a clean conscience; I haven't ever said that
'atheists have no morals". I HAVE defended the idea that atheists can and do
have very good and strict ethical standards. I HAVE criticized theists who
screw up. I do not lie to people when bargaining for things, and I do not
withhold information that would make a difference in price. Perhaps my
training as a realtor was too strong or something, I have a real aversion to
lying when it comes to buying/selling things. Maybe it's because it's a
bigger challenge, and more fun, to get a good deal with the truth than with
a lie. So in this case, as in few others that I can think of, nobody can
accuse me of being a hypocrite. I may never get such an opportunity again,
and I'm taking full advantage of it. ;-)
Ok, that explains it. I was wondering why you were so reluctant to
take the "go away" hint...now I know. You are just a hypocrite,
picking on atheists when you can, and not picking on theists when they
need it.
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
22 Jun 2005 06:03:49 PM |
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"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:m2lue.7618$hK3.1741@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
DianaC wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:uL5ue.7704$NX4.6526@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
-snip-
But like I said in another branch of this thread, now you've seen that
you have no reason to listen to us atheist hypocrites, so you might as
well just go away, and leave us alone. There's no saving us, you know.
Well, if I were attempting to save you, you might be right.
However, my purpose in THIS thread is, to be honest, pretty ignoble; it
is to gleefully point out the incredible hypocrisy of those who accuse
theists of being dishonest and bigoted crooks...when James pulled
something that is at least as nasty as any 'bad theist' story I've ever
heard. (well, short of violence)
Sounds to me like it's not nearly as bad as the stuff you have to put up
with from other theists!
I'm not going to pretend that theists are more moral/more ethical than
atheists, no. In fact, that's the problem with all sorts of 'people groups',
every single one of them seems to think it's ok to victimize all the others
in some fashion or another.
See, I come to this with a clean conscience; I haven't ever said that
'atheists have no morals". I HAVE defended the idea that atheists can and
do have very good and strict ethical standards. I HAVE criticized theists
who screw up. I do not lie to people when bargaining for things, and I do
not withhold information that would make a difference in price. Perhaps
my training as a realtor was too strong or something, I have a real
aversion to lying when it comes to buying/selling things. Maybe it's
because it's a bigger challenge, and more fun, to get a good deal with
the truth than with a lie. So in this case, as in few others that I can
think of, nobody can accuse me of being a hypocrite. I may never get such
an opportunity again, and I'm taking full advantage of it. ;-)
Ok, that explains it. I was wondering why you were so reluctant to take
the "go away" hint...now I know. You are just a hypocrite, picking on
atheists when you can, and not picking on theists when they need it.
Oh, I pick on theists too.
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
22 Jun 2005 06:05:33 PM |
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"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:m2lue.7618$hK3.1741@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
DianaC wrote:
<snip to>
Ok, that explains it. I was wondering why you were so reluctant to take
the "go away" hint...now I know. You are just a hypocrite, picking on
atheists when you can, and not picking on theists when they need it.
Addendum:
I don't think I have ever come across a thread where a theist was boasting
about defrauding someone in a store because his belief system was different.
Oddly enough, though theists may well act unethically from time to time,
they don't feel quite such an impelling need to BRAG about it.
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
22 Jun 2005 08:05:58 PM |
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DianaC wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:m2lue.7618$hK3.1741@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
DianaC wrote:
<snip to>
Ok, that explains it. I was wondering why you were so reluctant to take
the "go away" hint...now I know. You are just a hypocrite, picking on
atheists when you can, and not picking on theists when they need it.
Addendum:
I don't think I have ever come across a thread where a theist was boasting
about defrauding someone in a store because his belief system was different.
Oddly enough, though theists may well act unethically from time to time,
they don't feel quite such an impelling need to BRAG about it.
heh....with some of the ***** that theists have pulled throughout
history, I hope they're not bragging!
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
22 Jun 2005 09:42:26 PM |
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"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:WVnue.7715$hK3.3663@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
DianaC wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:m2lue.7618$hK3.1741@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
DianaC wrote:
<snip to>
Ok, that explains it. I was wondering why you were so reluctant to take
the "go away" hint...now I know. You are just a hypocrite, picking on
atheists when you can, and not picking on theists when they need it.
Addendum:
I don't think I have ever come across a thread where a theist was
boasting about defrauding someone in a store because his belief system
was different. Oddly enough, though theists may well act unethically from
time to time, they don't feel quite such an impelling need to BRAG about
it.
heh....with some of the ***** that theists have pulled throughout history,
I hope they're not bragging!
I wouldn't bring up history, were I you. ;-) It took atheist leaders less
than a century to catch up to 2000 years of theist death tolls.
Now I am quite aware that the reasons behind ALL the deaths had nothing at
all to do with religion, and everything to do with power and using whatever
was handy to get it, but if one is going to blame religion for the actions
of leaders who misused religion, then you can't absolve the atheist leaders
from their targeting the religious, either.
I guess that's the problem, though; here's James, who targeted a man who had
treated him honorably for fraud and why? Because the storeowner was a
Christian, listened to religious music and had a picture of Jesus on the
wall.
At the same time, he attempted to excuse it because of the fact that the
storeowner was a Christian, listened to religious music and had a picture of
Jesus on the wall.
And a whole bunch of people applauded him for his action---because the
storeowner was a Christian, listened to religious music and had a picture of
Jesus on the wall.
Now, the storeowner did nothing wrong, not a thing....but everybody was oh
so busy blaming him for being a Christian, listening to religious music and
having a picture of Jesus on the wall that they thought these things, his
choice of music and artwork (protected by the First Amendment) were more
heinous than actually committing a crime and stealing. Why, he DESERVED it,
how DARE he listen to religious music and have a picture of Jesus on the
wall in his own store? How DARE he be nice to James, and give him a good
price and 10% discount?
How DARE I, upon seeing James brag about it, point out that his actions were
unethical? How DARE I 'make a big deal' about fraud, deliberate deception,
bigotry and insufferable hypocrisy?
Wow, I'm so out of line here. I don't know how I bear myself.
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| User: "Enkidu the Atheist" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
22 Jun 2005 09:48:03 PM |
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"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:mkpue.3993$1q2.2776@trnddc01:
Diana, you've made your point! We understand what you're saying. Some of
us may agree with you to a greater or lesser degree. It's time to move on
here. Pick another cause! World peace, dental hygiene, the importance of
clean underwear. Anything!
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplin and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
My dog was first in his class at Harvard Divinity School.
-- bumper sticker
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| User: "Liz" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
23 Jun 2005 08:07:41 PM |
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On 23 Jun 2005 02:48:03 GMT, Enkidu the Atheist
<Enkidu.the.Atheist@gmail.com> in news message
<Xns967DC9703EE42255229@130.133.1.4> wrote:
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:mkpue.3993$1q2.2776@trnddc01:
Diana, you've made your point! We understand what you're saying. Some of
us may agree with you to a greater or lesser degree. It's time to move on
here. Pick another cause! World peace, dental hygiene, the importance of
clean underwear. Anything!
She is in one of her manic phases. She draws less enmity here than
she does with meat people.
Überwench #658 Now a *real* atheist!
Dame Liz the Undaunted Ath.D BAAWA
Charter Member of SMASH
and Queen of the known universe
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| User: "FreeThink" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
21 Jun 2005 07:41:30 PM |
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DianaC wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:IJ%te.7635$jX6.536@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
DianaC wrote:
"igtheist" <igtheist_N_O_S_P_A_M@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1119383542.984442.277640@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I understand how it is dishonest and unethical but how did you get to
greedy? He is doing this for someone else. Unless he pocketed the
discount I don't see how this is greedy. I also don't get
counterproductive. Counterproductive to what? Atheism? You do
understand that atheism isn't a moral system, don't you?
-snip-
Like I said, counterproductive. It makes it harder for me to continue to
argue with theists when they say that atheists have no morals, or that
atheism is unethical. It makes it difficult for me to say 'atheists DO
have moral codes and ethical codes, they get them from non-theist
sources", something that I have said to many theists over the years,
arguments that I have made many times.
Why would this subject cause you to change your position, or your opinion,
if indeed you understand that atheism is not a moral system?
Evidence. Something about a 30 to 4 majority approving fraud. Dang....What
am I supposed to go on here, faith?
Atheists and theists get their moral values from non-divine sources, and
our values are actually very similar...with the exception that atheists
don't have a theistic system of mythology to blame things on.
Well, that's pretty much what I have BEEN saying. But the evidence is
mounting against that, isn't it?
Atheism is not ethical nor unethical, it's merely the lack of belief in
god.
Yeah....until a bunch of atheists come together in a consensus of opinion
about something having to do with their lack of belief, and what is
therefore acceptable behavior to those who have such a belief.
Maybe this can show you that we're more alike than you thought...if you
think about it, this should support your arguments with theists that
atheism does not make much difference at all in a person's values.
The problem is, I KNOW that 'atheism' means nothing more than a lack of
belief in a deity. That doesn't bother me. The problem is with the atheists
who do NOT believe that this is all 'atheism' means, even though they say it
as if it were some holy mantra.
After all, James certainly has some actions he took as a direct result of
his lack of belief, doesn't he? And they weren't exactly helpful to my
contention that atheists and theists are pretty much the same, ethically
speaking; they just ascribe the source of their ethics to different places.
Isn't that what you claim?
But look at the ethics exhibited in this thread.
Or rather, the lack of them.
What theists are you comparing your atheist sample to Diana? This alone
is not worthy of any drama on your part IMHO.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
22 Jun 2005 12:27:17 AM |
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"FreeThink" <zeno7772004@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119400890.264869.182290@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
<snip to>
What theists are you comparing your atheist sample to Diana? This alone
is not worthy of any drama on your part IMHO.
I am not comparing this 'atheist sample' to any theists. It is their own
self comparison that is making my irony meter spin like an electric fan
here; the excuses made for James's behavior being that 'he only did it
because...(insert imaginative and wildly improbable action on the part of
some Christian somewhere here)"
Classic tu qoque fallacy, in other words.
As for the 'drama', well, hell.
If the lot of YOU would enact a little drama in the matter and NOT
condone/encourage/justify/applaud actions like James', there wouldn't be any
need for drama.
But the next time some theist tells me that atheists have no ethics or
morals, do you think I should refer them to this thread as evidence against
their position?
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| User: "FreeThink" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
24 Jun 2005 05:47:46 AM |
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DianaC wrote:
"FreeThink" <zeno7772004@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119400890.264869.182290@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
<snip to>
What theists are you comparing your atheist sample to Diana? This alone
is not worthy of any drama on your part IMHO.
I am not comparing this 'atheist sample' to any theists. It is their own
self comparison that is making my irony meter spin like an electric fan
here; the excuses made for James's behavior being that 'he only did it
because...(insert imaginative and wildly improbable action on the part of
some Christian somewhere here)"
Classic tu qoque fallacy, in other words.
As for the 'drama', well, hell.
If the lot of YOU would enact a little drama in the matter and NOT
condone/encourage/justify/applaud actions like James', there wouldn't be any
need for drama.
But the next time some theist tells me that atheists have no ethics or
morals, do you think I should refer them to this thread as evidence against
their position?
If someone held a conviction that was as absolute as that then, yes,
why not? Even this thread would prove them wrong.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
24 Jun 2005 11:26:02 AM |
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"FreeThink" <zeno7772004@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119610066.408468.16390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
DianaC wrote:
"FreeThink" <zeno7772004@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119400890.264869.182290@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
<snip to>
What theists are you comparing your atheist sample to Diana? This alone
is not worthy of any drama on your part IMHO.
I am not comparing this 'atheist sample' to any theists. It is their own
self comparison that is making my irony meter spin like an electric fan
here; the excuses made for James's behavior being that 'he only did it
because...(insert imaginative and wildly improbable action on the part of
some Christian somewhere here)"
Classic tu qoque fallacy, in other words.
As for the 'drama', well, hell.
If the lot of YOU would enact a little drama in the matter and NOT
condone/encourage/justify/applaud actions like James', there wouldn't be
any
need for drama.
But the next time some theist tells me that atheists have no ethics or
morals, do you think I should refer them to this thread as evidence
against
their position?
If someone held a conviction that was as absolute as that then, yes,
why not? Even this thread would prove them wrong.
Not if they can count, it wouldn't.
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| User: "nJb" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
22 Jun 2005 02:10:55 AM |
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DianaC wrote:
"FreeThink" <zeno7772004@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119400890.264869.182290@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
<snip to>
What theists are you comparing your atheist sample to Diana? This alone
is not worthy of any drama on your part IMHO.
I am not comparing this 'atheist sample' to any theists. It is their own
self comparison that is making my irony meter spin like an electric fan
here; the excuses made for James's behavior being that 'he only did it
because...(insert imaginative and wildly improbable action on the part of
some Christian somewhere here)"
Classic tu qoque fallacy, in other words.
As for the 'drama', well, hell.
If the lot of YOU would enact a little drama in the matter and NOT
condone/encourage/justify/applaud actions like James', there wouldn't be any
need for drama.
But the next time some theist tells me that atheists have no ethics or
morals, do you think I should refer them to this thread as evidence against
their position?
No, you should just ignore them. They're morons.
--
Jack
Plonked by Native American
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
22 Jun 2005 09:59:28 AM |
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DianaC wrote:
"FreeThink" <zeno7772004@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119400890.264869.182290@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
<snip to>
What theists are you comparing your atheist sample to Diana? This alone
is not worthy of any drama on your part IMHO.
I am not comparing this 'atheist sample' to any theists. It is their own
self comparison that is making my irony meter spin like an electric fan
here; the excuses made for James's behavior being that 'he only did it
because...(insert imaginative and wildly improbable action on the part of
some Christian somewhere here)"
Classic tu qoque fallacy, in other words.
As for the 'drama', well, hell.
If the lot of YOU would enact a little drama in the matter and NOT
condone/encourage/justify/applaud actions like James', there wouldn't be any
need for drama.
But the next time some theist tells me that atheists have no ethics or
morals, do you think I should refer them to this thread as evidence against
their position?
yeah, this situation is representative of the moral values of all
atheists in all situations. right.
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week. |
22 Jun 2005 12:52:23 PM |
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"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:k1fue.7903$jX6.2641@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
DianaC wrote:
"FreeThink" <zeno7772004@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119400890.264869.182290@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
<snip to>
What theists are you comparing your atheist sample to Diana? This alone
is not worthy of any drama on your part IMHO.
I am not comparing this 'atheist sample' to any theists. It is their own
self comparison that is making my irony meter spin like an electric fan
here; the excuses made for James's behavior being that 'he only did it
because...(insert imaginative and wildly improbable action on the part
of
some Christian somewhere here)"
Classic tu qoque fallacy, in other words.
As for the 'drama', well, hell.
If the lot of YOU would enact a little drama in the matter and NOT
condone/encourage/justify/applaud actions like James', there wouldn't be
any
need for drama.
But the next time some theist tells me that atheists have no ethics or
morals, do you think I should refer them to this thread as evidence
against
their position?
yeah, this situation is representative of the moral values of all
atheists in all situations. right.
Oh boy. Hey, if Diana wants to use this ONE incident to prove that atheist
have no ethics or morals, does that mean that we can use witch burnings, the
Inquisition and the crusades as proof that theists don't have them? Tit for
tat.
--
------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
Science doesn't burn people at the stake for disagreeing - Vic Sagerquist
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