I FAKED being a Christian this week.

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"RainLover"
Date:	17 Jun 2005 11:43:55 AM
Object:	I FAKED being a Christian this week.

I have an in law who is moving into this area at the end of the year.
She's lived overseas for 20 years, and my wife and I just bought a
house for her (her money, our power of attorney)... anyway, we're
trying to furnish it while on a tight budget.
This week we stopped into a second-hand furniture place... it was nice
enough, a huge selection, some good quality, not so bad prices....
BUT..
But they were listening to the local Christian channel (barf) and,
upon further investigation, had a photo of Jesus on the wall... you
know the one... White guy, Beard, drug-induced smile, "god-light'
creating a halo around his long hair...
Anyway, we found some nice furniture, and for a good price... we ended
up getting a total of about 10 pieces (dinning room/living room)....
THEN, our negotiations began.... The owner went down 10% cuz we were
buying a lot.. nice of him, but it got me thinkin'... what's the
special, secret-handshake price for Christians... so I started
explaining this furniture was for our Christian Sister (actually
Atheist / Buddhist) who had spent 20 years ministering in Korea
(actually, working as well as a Male to Female transexual).
I asked if there was anyway they could help out a Christian trying to
help out another Christian......
BAM, a total of 30% off instead of the 10%.
This Christian thing ROCKS!!!! I might have to put a jesus-fish on my
car for better parking places...
James, Seattle
.

User: "Tim McGaughy"
Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week.	22 Jun 2005 06:03:09 PM

DianaC wrote:

"Harry F. Leopold" <hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BEDEF8D80007E80DF0284550@news.central.cox.net...

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:36:47 -0500, nJb wrote
(in article <d9b0q0$ch0$1@news.xmission.com>):

Not looking to make anybody look ethical, just watching you dance, I
love
it.

DianaC said:

Oddly enough, it's making me feel rather sad. Here you are, admitting
quite
freely that your ethics are situational at best and completely
nonexistent
at worst, BRAGGING about it, and you think *I* have a problem.

My ethics are situational. If I feel that you are somebody that would
bargain

on a religious (read racial, sexual, etc.) basis, if I do business with
you
I'll do everything I can to ***** you over. In other words, I'm capable of
being the nastiest or nicest MF you've ever encountered. None of this is
to
imply that you don't have a problem.

How many years has this idiot, DianaC, been posting here and she still has
not gotten the point that all ethics and morals are situational?

Situational ethics are no ethics at all.

The bible disagrees with you.
It tells us that there is a time for everything. It specifically
includes killing in that.
That's situational ethics. Are you telling us that the bible is wrong?
.

User: "J Forbes"
Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week.	22 Jun 2005 07:44:33 PM

DianaC wrote:

"Harry F. Leopold" <hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BEDEF8D80007E80DF0284550@news.central.cox.net...

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:36:47 -0500, nJb wrote
(in article <d9b0q0$ch0$1@news.xmission.com>):

Not looking to make anybody look ethical, just watching you dance, I
love
it.

DianaC said:

My ethics are situational. If I feel that you are somebody that would
bargain

How many years has this idiot, DianaC, been posting here and she still has
not gotten the point that all ethics and morals are situational?

Situational ethics are no ethics at all. The whole POINT of ethical and
moral behavior is that one can count on them being pretty much the same;
that you can trust a man to be honest no matter what situation he is in.
Because if you can't, does it matter if he IS honest 'sometimes'? You can't
trust him ANY time.

Situational ethics are just a fact of life.
Now....in *most* cases, I can afford to be honest. In fact, if I am
blatantly honest in a situation in which it appears that I am losing
something valuable by being honest, my reputation as an honest person
will be almost unimpeachable to some observers. But this is another
neat trick we play. If I do it right, I can be dishonest when the
odds of being caught are low, and honest when the odds of being caught
are middling to high. And I can appear to be a good trustworthy
citizen, and I can get away with some crap.
We do this without even thinking about it. This behavior seems to
have evolved, because it works well.
(be sure to see my comment below before you get too fired up)

The
believers claim that these are absolute, even though they never live up to
their claims. In fact that is one of the usual nasty comments made about
atheists, that (because we understand that ethics - or morals - are
situational) we have no morals or ethics.

Tell me something: if your ethics are situational, then how can anybody
trust you in any situation?

how can my family trust me to defend it? even if I might have to tell
a lie to do so? hmmmm....that's a toughie.
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
.

User: "DianaC"
Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week.	22 Jun 2005 09:01:04 PM

"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:RBnue.7692$hK3.6391@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...

DianaC wrote:

"Harry F. Leopold" <hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BEDEF8D80007E80DF0284550@news.central.cox.net...

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:36:47 -0500, nJb wrote
(in article <d9b0q0$ch0$1@news.xmission.com>):

Not looking to make anybody look ethical, just watching you dance, I
love
it.

DianaC said:

My ethics are situational. If I feel that you are somebody that would
bargain

on a religious (read racial, sexual, etc.) basis, if I do business with
you
I'll do everything I can to ***** you over. In other words, I'm capable
of
being the nastiest or nicest MF you've ever encountered. None of this is
to
imply that you don't have a problem.

How many years has this idiot, DianaC, been posting here and she still
has
not gotten the point that all ethics and morals are situational?

Situational ethics are just a fact of life.

So is murder, rape, theft, wife beating, child abuse, shoplifting and
running red lights. That doesn't mean that these are good things.

Now....in *most* cases, I can afford to be honest. In fact, if I am
blatantly honest in a situation in which it appears that I am losing
something valuable by being honest, my reputation as an honest person will
be almost unimpeachable to some observers. But this is another neat trick
we play. If I do it right, I can be dishonest when the odds of being
caught are low, and honest when the odds of being caught are middling to
high. And I can appear to be a good trustworthy citizen, and I can get
away with some crap.

Better you should simply be honest all the time. But that's just me.

We do this without even thinking about it. This behavior seems to have
evolved, because it works well.

Oh, yes, this world is SUCH a wonderful place, where everybody is always
kind and honorable to everyone else and nobody gets hurt by those they
trust....
er, have you ever read Dante? Interesting where HE puts those whose sin
involves betraying a trust...

(be sure to see my comment below before you get too fired up)

The
believers claim that these are absolute, even though they never live up
to
their claims. In fact that is one of the usual nasty comments made about
atheists, that (because we understand that ethics - or morals - are
situational) we have no morals or ethics.

Tell me something: if your ethics are situational, then how can anybody
trust you in any situation?

how can my family trust me to defend it? even if I might have to tell a
lie to do so? hmmmm....that's a toughie.

.....and how often do the lives of your family depend upon lying to a
storeowner...who is not threatening them?
.

User: "J Forbes"
Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week.	22 Jun 2005 10:16:15 PM

DianaC wrote:

"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:RBnue.7692$hK3.6391@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...

DianaC wrote:

"Harry F. Leopold" <hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BEDEF8D80007E80DF0284550@news.central.cox.net...

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:36:47 -0500, nJb wrote
(in article <d9b0q0$ch0$1@news.xmission.com>):

Not looking to make anybody look ethical, just watching you dance, I
love
it.

DianaC said:

My ethics are situational. If I feel that you are somebody that would
bargain

on a religious (read racial, sexual, etc.) basis, if I do business with
you
I'll do everything I can to ***** you over. In other words, I'm capable
of
being the nastiest or nicest MF you've ever encountered. None of this is
to
imply that you don't have a problem.

How many years has this idiot, DianaC, been posting here and she still
has
not gotten the point that all ethics and morals are situational?

Situational ethics are just a fact of life.

So is murder, rape, theft, wife beating, child abuse, shoplifting and
running red lights. That doesn't mean that these are good things.

I don't recall saying situational ethics were good or bad. Many
ethical decisions do in fact depend on the situation.

Better you should simply be honest all the time. But that's just me.

Yes, but it takes a lot of work to overcome our natural tendencies. I
try to be honest as often as I can, but sometimes I fail...

We do this without even thinking about it. This behavior seems to have
evolved, because it works well.

Oh, yes, this world is SUCH a wonderful place, where everybody is always
kind and honorable to everyone else and nobody gets hurt by those they
trust....

????? I'm just talking about how people work. Humans are human. It
would be nice if everyone was the model citizen you want them to be,
but we aren't. and we never will be.

er, have you ever read Dante? Interesting where HE puts those whose sin
involves betraying a trust...

No, never read him. The whole afterlife fantasy just doesn't do
anything for me.

(be sure to see my comment below before you get too fired up)

The
believers claim that these are absolute, even though they never live up
to
their claims. In fact that is one of the usual nasty comments made about
atheists, that (because we understand that ethics - or morals - are
situational) we have no morals or ethics.

Tell me something: if your ethics are situational, then how can anybody
trust you in any situation?

how can my family trust me to defend it? even if I might have to tell a
lie to do so? hmmmm....that's a toughie.

....and how often do the lives of your family depend upon lying to a
storeowner...who is not threatening them?

oh, this isn't a general "what if"? sorry! you asked me about how
anybody could trust me in any situation, if my ethics are situational....
I don't know how they do it, but a lot of people *do* happen to trust
me, and my ethics are indeed situational. wierd, huh? there must be
something that you don't understand about how people work.
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
.

User: "DianaC"
Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week.	23 Jun 2005 12:13:10 PM

"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:3Qpue.7789$hK3.6786@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...

DianaC wrote:

So is murder, rape, theft, wife beating, child abuse, shoplifting and
running red lights. That doesn't mean that these are good things.

I don't recall saying situational ethics were good or bad. Many ethical
decisions do in fact depend on the situation.

I concede that sometimes it may SEEM so, but I think that it's more like the
situations fit into ethical principles, not the other way around.

Now....in *most* cases, I can afford to be honest. In fact, if I am
blatantly honest in a situation in which it appears that I am losing
something valuable by being honest, my reputation as an honest person
will be almost unimpeachable to some observers. But this is another neat
trick we play. If I do it right, I can be dishonest when the odds of
being caught are low, and honest when the odds of being caught are
middling to high. And I can appear to be a good trustworthy citizen, and
I can get away with some crap.

Better you should simply be honest all the time. But that's just me.

Yes, but it takes a lot of work to overcome our natural tendencies. I try
to be honest as often as I can, but sometimes I fail...

Yeah, well, that's what 'repentance' is for, and repenting is good for
atheists, too; it's called 'learning from one's mistakes'. ;-)

We do this without even thinking about it. This behavior seems to have
evolved, because it works well.

Oh, yes, this world is SUCH a wonderful place, where everybody is always
kind and honorable to everyone else and nobody gets hurt by those they
trust....

????? I'm just talking about how people work. Humans are human. It
would be nice if everyone was the model citizen you want them to be, but
we aren't. and we never will be.

But that does not excuse us from trying, and it doesn't excuse bragging
about failures.

er, have you ever read Dante? Interesting where HE puts those whose sin
involves betraying a trust...

No, never read him. The whole afterlife fantasy just doesn't do anything
for me.

I dare you to try being a literature major without doing so. ;-) Never mind
the fantasy aspect of 'afterlife', it's not about the afterlife. It's about,
well, human nature.

(be sure to see my comment below before you get too fired up)

The
believers claim that these are absolute, even though they never live up
to
their claims. In fact that is one of the usual nasty comments made
about
atheists, that (because we understand that ethics - or morals - are
situational) we have no morals or ethics.

Tell me something: if your ethics are situational, then how can anybody
trust you in any situation?

how can my family trust me to defend it? even if I might have to tell a
lie to do so? hmmmm....that's a toughie.

....and how often do the lives of your family depend upon lying to a
storeowner...who is not threatening them?

oh, this isn't a general "what if"? sorry! you asked me about how anybody
could trust me in any situation, if my ethics are situational....

I don't know how they do it, but a lot of people *do* happen to trust me,
and my ethics are indeed situational. wierd, huh? there must be
something that you don't understand about how people work.

And do those who trust you perfectly understand that your ethics are
'situational'? That is, whether or not you can be trusted to keep your word
depends upon the situation you find yourself in?
.

User: "J Forbes"
Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week.	23 Jun 2005 03:39:43 PM

DianaC wrote:

"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:3Qpue.7789$hK3.6786@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...

DianaC wrote:

So is murder, rape, theft, wife beating, child abuse, shoplifting and
running red lights. That doesn't mean that these are good things.

I don't recall saying situational ethics were good or bad. Many ethical
decisions do in fact depend on the situation.

I concede that sometimes it may SEEM so, but I think that it's more like the
situations fit into ethical principles, not the other way around.

sure...our ethical principles dictate that we behave differently in
different situations.

Now....in *most* cases, I can afford to be honest. In fact, if I am
blatantly honest in a situation in which it appears that I am losing
something valuable by being honest, my reputation as an honest person
will be almost unimpeachable to some observers. But this is another neat
trick we play. If I do it right, I can be dishonest when the odds of
being caught are low, and honest when the odds of being caught are
middling to high. And I can appear to be a good trustworthy citizen, and
I can get away with some crap.

Better you should simply be honest all the time. But that's just me.

Yes, but it takes a lot of work to overcome our natural tendencies. I try
to be honest as often as I can, but sometimes I fail...

Yeah, well, that's what 'repentance' is for, and repenting is good for
atheists, too; it's called 'learning from one's mistakes'. ;-)

I know all about that.

We do this without even thinking about it. This behavior seems to have
evolved, because it works well.

Oh, yes, this world is SUCH a wonderful place, where everybody is always
kind and honorable to everyone else and nobody gets hurt by those they
trust....

????? I'm just talking about how people work. Humans are human. It
would be nice if everyone was the model citizen you want them to be, but
we aren't. and we never will be.

But that does not excuse us from trying, and it doesn't excuse bragging
about failures.

who said it does? not me.

er, have you ever read Dante? Interesting where HE puts those whose sin
involves betraying a trust...

No, never read him. The whole afterlife fantasy just doesn't do anything
for me.

I dare you to try being a literature major without doing so. ;-) Never mind
the fantasy aspect of 'afterlife', it's not about the afterlife. It's about,
well, human nature.

I have no desire at all to be a literature major. I have trouble
getting interested in most older literature...I can't read Shakesphere
(sp?) at all.

(be sure to see my comment below before you get too fired up)

The
believers claim that these are absolute, even though they never live up
to
their claims. In fact that is one of the usual nasty comments made
about
atheists, that (because we understand that ethics - or morals - are
situational) we have no morals or ethics.

Tell me something: if your ethics are situational, then how can anybody
trust you in any situation?

how can my family trust me to defend it? even if I might have to tell a
lie to do so? hmmmm....that's a toughie.

....and how often do the lives of your family depend upon lying to a
storeowner...who is not threatening them?

oh, this isn't a general "what if"? sorry! you asked me about how anybody
could trust me in any situation, if my ethics are situational....

I don't know how they do it, but a lot of people *do* happen to trust me,
and my ethics are indeed situational. wierd, huh? there must be
something that you don't understand about how people work.

And do those who trust you perfectly understand that your ethics are
'situational'? That is, whether or not you can be trusted to keep your word
depends upon the situation you find yourself in?

I expect that no one trusts me perfectly, and I also expect that those
people who do trust me also behave differently in different situations.
You do too, whether or not you'll admit it.
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
.

User: "DianaC"
Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week.	23 Jun 2005 05:16:56 PM

"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:j6Fue.8381$NX4.3107@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

DianaC wrote:

"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:3Qpue.7789$hK3.6786@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...

DianaC wrote:

So is murder, rape, theft, wife beating, child abuse, shoplifting and
running red lights. That doesn't mean that these are good things.

I don't recall saying situational ethics were good or bad. Many ethical
decisions do in fact depend on the situation.

I concede that sometimes it may SEEM so, but I think that it's more like
the situations fit into ethical principles, not the other way around.

sure...our ethical principles dictate that we behave differently in
different situations.

Well, perhaps it's that some people have ethics that are more like 'I'll
tell the truth in this situation unless a lie can get me more'. (shrug)

Now....in *most* cases, I can afford to be honest. In fact, if I am
blatantly honest in a situation in which it appears that I am losing
something valuable by being honest, my reputation as an honest person
will be almost unimpeachable to some observers. But this is another
neat trick we play. If I do it right, I can be dishonest when the odds
of being caught are low, and honest when the odds of being caught are
middling to high. And I can appear to be a good trustworthy citizen,
and I can get away with some crap.

Better you should simply be honest all the time. But that's just me.

Yes, but it takes a lot of work to overcome our natural tendencies. I
try to be honest as often as I can, but sometimes I fail...

Yeah, well, that's what 'repentance' is for, and repenting is good for
atheists, too; it's called 'learning from one's mistakes'. ;-)

I know all about that.

Don't we all!!!

We do this without even thinking about it. This behavior seems to have
evolved, because it works well.

Oh, yes, this world is SUCH a wonderful place, where everybody is always
kind and honorable to everyone else and nobody gets hurt by those they
trust....

????? I'm just talking about how people work. Humans are human. It
would be nice if everyone was the model citizen you want them to be, but
we aren't. and we never will be.

But that does not excuse us from trying, and it doesn't excuse bragging
about failures.

who said it does? not me.

Well, mostly you don't, that's true.

er, have you ever read Dante? Interesting where HE puts those whose sin
involves betraying a trust...

No, never read him. The whole afterlife fantasy just doesn't do anything
for me.

I dare you to try being a literature major without doing so. ;-) Never
mind the fantasy aspect of 'afterlife', it's not about the afterlife.
It's about, well, human nature.

I have no desire at all to be a literature major. I have trouble getting
interested in most older literature...I can't read Shakesphere (sp?) at
all.

I've found that knowing the old stuff helps you understand the new stuff.
Not because WE have to know it, but because the writers of the new stuff
know it and use it to make points. ;-)
Try reading T.S. Eliot, for instance. See how far you get in 'The Waste
Land' without having some understanding of the bible, greek and roman
mythology, the arthurian sagas, tarot cards, hindu religions and Freud. ;-)

(be sure to see my comment below before you get too fired up)

The
believers claim that these are absolute, even though they never live
up to
their claims. In fact that is one of the usual nasty comments made
about
atheists, that (because we understand that ethics - or morals - are
situational) we have no morals or ethics.

Tell me something: if your ethics are situational, then how can
anybody trust you in any situation?

how can my family trust me to defend it? even if I might have to tell
a lie to do so? hmmmm....that's a toughie.

....and how often do the lives of your family depend upon lying to a
storeowner...who is not threatening them?

oh, this isn't a general "what if"? sorry! you asked me about how
anybody could trust me in any situation, if my ethics are situational....

I don't know how they do it, but a lot of people *do* happen to trust me,
and my ethics are indeed situational. wierd, huh? there must be
something that you don't understand about how people work.

And do those who trust you perfectly understand that your ethics are
'situational'? That is, whether or not you can be trusted to keep your
word depends upon the situation you find yourself in?

I expect that no one trusts me perfectly, and I also expect that those
people who do trust me also behave differently in different situations.

You do too, whether or not you'll admit it.

Well, I DID just get asked if I would lie to the guy with a bloody knife
asking if the bruised and bleeding woman I had just hidden in my home was
there.
I told him I wouldn't lie. I'd shoot him.
Does that count?
Diana
.

User: "J Forbes"
Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week.	23 Jun 2005 08:54:15 PM

DianaC wrote:

"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:j6Fue.8381$NX4.3107@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

-snip-

I expect that no one trusts me perfectly, and I also expect that those
people who do trust me also behave differently in different situations.

You do too, whether or not you'll admit it.

Well, I DID just get asked if I would lie to the guy with a bloody knife
asking if the bruised and bleeding woman I had just hidden in my home was
there.

I told him I wouldn't lie. I'd shoot him.

Does that count?

You would not kill anyone...unless the situation called for it.
I expect you'd do the same with lying.
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
.

User: "DianaC"
Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week.	24 Jun 2005 10:42:19 AM

"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:bJJue.8292$hK3.5787@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...

DianaC wrote:

"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:j6Fue.8381$NX4.3107@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

-snip-

I expect that no one trusts me perfectly, and I also expect that those
people who do trust me also behave differently in different situations.

You do too, whether or not you'll admit it.

Well, I DID just get asked if I would lie to the guy with a bloody knife
asking if the bruised and bleeding woman I had just hidden in my home was
there.

I told him I wouldn't lie. I'd shoot him.

Does that count?

You would not kill anyone...unless the situation called for it.

I expect you'd do the same with lying.

I think we are having a disconnect when it comes to defining 'situational'..
I think that 'situational ethics' usually means that the ethics one abides
by changes with the situation and one's whims; that is, whichever will get
one the most advantage, and that there are no lines that one will not cross.
For instance, you are honest...unless of course you see that new CD in the
store that you really want, 'deserve' and don't have the money for right
now, so you just take it without paying for it.
.....or you tell the truth....until a situation comes up where you see some
advantage (other than life or death, now...) to yourself in lying. For
instance, you tell the truth.....unless of course you want to take your
twelve year old to the movies and the child's ticket price is three bucks
cheaper.
The short term advantages to ethics like this are obvious; you get the CD,
you get the cheaper ticket. The long term disadvantages may not be so
obvious; like far higher prices for CD's (never mind the consequences of
getting caught) and not being believed the next time you actually DO tell
the truth and really need someone to believe you.
perhaps you are thinking that 'situational ethics' is more like deciding
ahead of time what lines you will cross in what situations? Like deciding
ahead of any such occurrence, that you WILL lie to save a life, or to
prevent unnecessary injury? I don't think that this is 'situational' ethics
at all; it's a firming up of solid ethical behavior. You know what you will
do in certain situations, and more importantly, so do those with whom you
deal. It's the not knowing, and not trusting, that causes problems.
.

User: "J Forbes"
Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week.	24 Jun 2005 12:37:58 PM

DianaC wrote:

"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:bJJue.8292$hK3.5787@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...

DianaC wrote:

"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:j6Fue.8381$NX4.3107@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

-snip-

I expect that no one trusts me perfectly, and I also expect that those
people who do trust me also behave differently in different situations.

You do too, whether or not you'll admit it.

Well, I DID just get asked if I would lie to the guy with a bloody knife
asking if the bruised and bleeding woman I had just hidden in my home was
there.

I told him I wouldn't lie. I'd shoot him.

Does that count?

You would not kill anyone...unless the situation called for it.

I expect you'd do the same with lying.

I think we are having a disconnect when it comes to defining 'situational'..

I think that 'situational ethics' usually means that the ethics one abides
by changes with the situation and one's whims; that is, whichever will get
one the most advantage, and that there are no lines that one will not cross.
For instance, you are honest...unless of course you see that new CD in the
store that you really want, 'deserve' and don't have the money for right
now, so you just take it without paying for it.

....or you tell the truth....until a situation comes up where you see some
advantage (other than life or death, now...) to yourself in lying. For
instance, you tell the truth.....unless of course you want to take your
twelve year old to the movies and the child's ticket price is three bucks
cheaper.

The short term advantages to ethics like this are obvious; you get the CD,
you get the cheaper ticket. The long term disadvantages may not be so
obvious; like far higher prices for CD's (never mind the consequences of
getting caught) and not being believed the next time you actually DO tell
the truth and really need someone to believe you.

perhaps you are thinking that 'situational ethics' is more like deciding
ahead of time what lines you will cross in what situations? Like deciding
ahead of any such occurrence, that you WILL lie to save a life, or to
prevent unnecessary injury? I don't think that this is 'situational' ethics
at all; it's a firming up of solid ethical behavior. You know what you will
do in certain situations, and more importantly, so do those with whom you
deal. It's the not knowing, and not trusting, that causes problems.

It's all the same, you know...if you will behave differently in
different situations, then you have situational ethics.
Some folks will steal at the drop of a hat, others will go far out of
their way to not steal. Some folks will lie about everything, other
folks will tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth even if
their life is at stake.
It's just a matter of where the line is drawn...we all work the same way.
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
.

User: "DianaC"
Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week.	24 Jun 2005 04:31:52 PM

"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:WxXue.8674$jX6.2864@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...

DianaC wrote:

"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:bJJue.8292$hK3.5787@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...

DianaC wrote:

"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:j6Fue.8381$NX4.3107@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

-snip-

I expect that no one trusts me perfectly, and I also expect that those
people who do trust me also behave differently in different situations.

You do too, whether or not you'll admit it.

Well, I DID just get asked if I would lie to the guy with a bloody knife
asking if the bruised and bleeding woman I had just hidden in my home
was there.

I told him I wouldn't lie. I'd shoot him.

Does that count?

You would not kill anyone...unless the situation called for it.

I expect you'd do the same with lying.

I think we are having a disconnect when it comes to defining
'situational'..

I think that 'situational ethics' usually means that the ethics one
abides by changes with the situation and one's whims; that is, whichever
will get one the most advantage, and that there are no lines that one
will not cross. For instance, you are honest...unless of course you see
that new CD in the store that you really want, 'deserve' and don't have
the money for right now, so you just take it without paying for it.

....or you tell the truth....until a situation comes up where you see
some advantage (other than life or death, now...) to yourself in lying.
For instance, you tell the truth.....unless of course you want to take
your twelve year old to the movies and the child's ticket price is three
bucks cheaper.

The short term advantages to ethics like this are obvious; you get the
CD, you get the cheaper ticket. The long term disadvantages may not be so
obvious; like far higher prices for CD's (never mind the consequences of
getting caught) and not being believed the next time you actually DO tell
the truth and really need someone to believe you.

perhaps you are thinking that 'situational ethics' is more like deciding
ahead of time what lines you will cross in what situations? Like deciding
ahead of any such occurrence, that you WILL lie to save a life, or to
prevent unnecessary injury? I don't think that this is 'situational'
ethics at all; it's a firming up of solid ethical behavior. You know what
you will do in certain situations, and more importantly, so do those with
whom you deal. It's the not knowing, and not trusting, that causes
problems.

It's all the same, you know...if you will behave differently in different
situations, then you have situational ethics.

Some folks will steal at the drop of a hat, others will go far out of
their way to not steal. Some folks will lie about everything, other folks
will tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth even if their life is
at stake.

It's just a matter of where the line is drawn...we all work the same way.

I believe that 'situational ethics' are practiced by those who have no
lines; that a lie is as good as the truth going into any situation, and that
which one gets told depends ENTIRELY upon what's in it for them at the
moment.
What it is, is an extreme form of shortsighted self interest. Shoot,
there's even an old story that illustrates the long term problem with such
ethics. You remember the story of the boy who cried 'wolf', right? I'm
certain that in every situation he called 'wolf', he thought he was getting
something out of it; a giggle, watching all those people run around in a
panic.....until a wolf actually showed up, nobody believed his cries, and he
died.
But someone who will draw an ethical line and keep to it even in situations
where he might not see any benefit to himself; perhaps even lose something
by telling the truth, THAT man will be believed when he needs to be.
Now, a man who habitually lies to get advantage in a business deal; can he
go back and do business again with the people he lied to? Probably not. Or
if he does, he isn't going to get any respect, and CERTAINLY won't get any
more good deals. That's the trouble with such activities, they tend to be
one shot deals.
.

User: "RainLover"
Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week.	23 Jun 2005 08:12:38 AM

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:59:58 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:

How many years has this idiot, DianaC, been posting here and she still has
not gotten the point that all ethics and morals are situational?

Situational ethics are no ethics at all. The whole POINT of ethical and
moral behavior is that one can count on them being pretty much the same;

Okay, you're at home, and there's a knock at your door.. a woman,
bleeding and bruised, panicking... you let her in to help her and 10
minutes later, a guy with a bloody knife shows up at your door and
asks if the woman is there...
Do you LIE? (remembering that lying is always unethical... it's even
one of the ten commandments)

that you can trust a man to be honest no matter what situation he is in.
Because if you can't, does it matter if he IS honest 'sometimes'? You can't
trust him ANY time.

So, since YOU have lied in your past (don't lie and say you haven't),
YOU are not to be trusted ANY TIME?
Good to know.
James, Seattle
.

User: "DianaC"
Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week.	23 Jun 2005 12:18:06 PM

"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:u1dlb11hq9tfmjvertjjh89goa8l843mv4@4ax.com...

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:59:58 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:

How many years has this idiot, DianaC, been posting here and she still
has
not gotten the point that all ethics and morals are situational?

Situational ethics are no ethics at all. The whole POINT of ethical and
moral behavior is that one can count on them being pretty much the same;

Okay, you're at home, and there's a knock at your door.. a woman,
bleeding and bruised, panicking... you let her in to help her and 10
minutes later, a guy with a bloody knife shows up at your door and
asks if the woman is there...

Do you LIE? (remembering that lying is always unethical... it's even
one of the ten commandments)

Would I lie? No.
I would have already called 911, AND loaded my son's rifle, with which I
would shoot him. What the HELL makes you think that a man like that would
believe me if I lied about the woman's presence, and would quietly leave?

that you can trust a man to be honest no matter what situation he is in.
Because if you can't, does it matter if he IS honest 'sometimes'? You
can't
trust him ANY time.

So, since YOU have lied in your past (don't lie and say you haven't),
YOU are not to be trusted ANY TIME?

I have told lies.
But never in a business situation, and never to get monetary gain.
.

User: "nJb"
Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week.	23 Jun 2005 01:26:17 PM

DianaC wrote:

"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:u1dlb11hq9tfmjvertjjh89goa8l843mv4@4ax.com...

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:59:58 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:

How many years has this idiot, DianaC, been posting here and she still
has
not gotten the point that all ethics and morals are situational?

Situational ethics are no ethics at all. The whole POINT of ethical and
moral behavior is that one can count on them being pretty much the same;

Okay, you're at home, and there's a knock at your door.. a woman,
bleeding and bruised, panicking... you let her in to help her and 10
minutes later, a guy with a bloody knife shows up at your door and
asks if the woman is there...

Do you LIE? (remembering that lying is always unethical... it's even
one of the ten commandments)

Would I lie? No.

I would have already called 911, AND loaded my son's rifle, with which I
would shoot him. What the HELL makes you think that a man like that would
believe me if I lied about the woman's presence, and would quietly leave?

that you can trust a man to be honest no matter what situation he is in.
Because if you can't, does it matter if he IS honest 'sometimes'? You
can't
trust him ANY time.

So, since YOU have lied in your past (don't lie and say you haven't),
YOU are not to be trusted ANY TIME?

I have told lies.

But never in a business situation, and never to get monetary gain.

So it *is* a situatuional thing. Gain is ok as long as it's not monetary?
--
Jack
Plonked by Native American
bobo1148atxmissiondotcom
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/xmissionbobo/
.

User: "Robibnikoff"
Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week.	23 Jun 2005 01:25:59 PM

"nJb" <none@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:d9eunl$1u6$3@news.xmission.com...

DianaC wrote:

"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:u1dlb11hq9tfmjvertjjh89goa8l843mv4@4ax.com...

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:59:58 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:

How many years has this idiot, DianaC, been posting here and she still
has
not gotten the point that all ethics and morals are situational?

Situational ethics are no ethics at all. The whole POINT of ethical and
moral behavior is that one can count on them being pretty much the

same;

Okay, you're at home, and there's a knock at your door.. a woman,
bleeding and bruised, panicking... you let her in to help her and 10
minutes later, a guy with a bloody knife shows up at your door and
asks if the woman is there...

Do you LIE? (remembering that lying is always unethical... it's even
one of the ten commandments)

Would I lie? No.

I would have already called 911, AND loaded my son's rifle, with which I
would shoot him. What the HELL makes you think that a man like that

would

believe me if I lied about the woman's presence, and would quietly

leave?

that you can trust a man to be honest no matter what situation he is

in.

Because if you can't, does it matter if he IS honest 'sometimes'? You
can't
trust him ANY time.

So, since YOU have lied in your past (don't lie and say you haven't),
YOU are not to be trusted ANY TIME?

I have told lies.

But never in a business situation, and never to get monetary gain.

So it *is* a situatuional thing. Gain is ok as long as it's not monetary?

Whoopsie! Got her ;)
--
------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
Science doesn't burn people at the stake for disagreeing - Vic Sagerquist
.

User: "DianaC"
Title: Re: I FAKED being a Christian this week.	23 Jun 2005 05:17:29 PM