| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"dave bowman" |
| Date: |
28 Jun 2005 11:34:23 PM |
| Object: |
I wasted my life searching for God ! |
LOL, that isn't true, but it could be true of some people who have
lived and died and never found God. I suspect that I too will waste a
few years looking for God, but not a whole lifetime.
This possibility represents to me why we should not put too much of our
life into the search for God. If you have searched for God for a few
years and haven't found God, then move on to something else - such as
family, community, the sciences, the arts, becoming a businessman, etc.
Wouldn't it be a real waste if you did waste your life searching for
God?
Heh, God may not approve of you wasting your life searching for God.
Consider that too.
I know how some will respond. Just have faith. Yeh, but in which god?
Responses welcomed.
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| User: "Ben Goren" |
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| Title: Re: I wasted my life searching for God ! |
06 Jul 2005 01:33:17 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
Ben Goren wrote:
Richo wrote:
Ben Goren wrote:
Logical possibility versus physical possibility.
Logical impossible versus physical impossible.
So, you're asserting that God can do anything that's
physically impossible, but nothing that's logically
impossible?
No. Christians/Jews/Muslims assert that God can do anything
that is logically possible. I am merely telling you that is
what they assert. They do not assert what you *said* they
assert. You were constructing a strawmen.
Then, as we'll get to in a moment, their assertion is no more
than special pleading.
They have redefined what "omni-" means to fit, because they
weren't sophisticated enough to realise the problems they
introduced.
My point exactly. AOL.
Which is why I've just revised my .sig--it should preempt attempts
to use their special definition. At least, it'll make it painfully
obvious why the special definition is special pleading.
Besides, I was looking for a version that used iambic pentameter.
Just add it to the list of other words they've done this to.
Jesus /Christ,/ it annoys me when they do that. Like saying that
love has something to do with being in the presence of God's grace
or some such *****. Which is why I'm more than happy to take
the name of their God in vain, ***** it.
Cheers,
b&
--
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
All but God can prove this sentence true.
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| User: "igtheist" |
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| Title: Re: I wasted my life searching for God ! |
11 Jul 2005 06:44:51 PM |
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Richo wrote:
Not being able to do the logically *possible* would destroy the
omnipotent God.
(creating a being with free will unable to sin for example. Revealing
himself to an atheist without destroying the atheists free will to
accept or reject him for another etc etc)
I don't see how revealing himself would impinge on my free will. I am
perfectly capable of rejecting Marx, Hitler, Stalin and I know they
exist.
If by "rejecting" you mean "not believing they exist" then you should
say so but then I also disagree. There are plenty of people who don't
believe in things that have been "revealed" to them. They just have
to choose not to believe.
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: I wasted my life searching for God ! |
12 Jul 2005 03:23:54 AM |
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igtheist wrote:
Richo wrote:
Not being able to do the logically *possible* would destroy the
omnipotent God.
(creating a being with free will unable to sin for example. Revealing
himself to an atheist without destroying the atheists free will to
accept or reject him for another etc etc)
I don't see how revealing himself would impinge on my free will.
Me neither.
So I would use this as an example where God fails to do the *logically*
possible - which is a problem for the believers.
Ben was using an example of a failure to do the logiclly impossible -
which does not work as an argument against God.
I am
perfectly capable of rejecting Marx, Hitler, Stalin and I know they
exist.
Exactly.
If by "rejecting" you mean "not believing they exist" then you should
say so but then I also disagree. There are plenty of people who don't
believe in things that have been "revealed" to them. They just have
to choose not to believe.
Hint: I am not arguing for God.
I am godless and so is Ben Goren.
I am just setting him straight on a few things - not trying to convince
anyone that God exists.
Mark.
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: I wasted my life searching for God ! |
04 Jul 2005 07:32:16 PM |
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dgillesp wrote:
Richo wrote:
dgillesp wrote:
Mark Richardson wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:15:01 -0400, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net>
wrote:
Richo wrote:
dgillesp wrote:
dave bowman wrote:
LOL, that isn't true, but it could be true of some people who have
lived and died and never found God. I suspect that I too will waste a
few years looking for God, but not a whole lifetime.
This possibility represents to me why we should not put too much of our
life into the search for God. If you have searched for God for a few
years and haven't found God, then move on to something else - such as
family, community, the sciences, the arts, becoming a businessman, etc.
Wouldn't it be a real waste if you did waste your life searching for
God?
Heh, God may not approve of you wasting your life searching for God.
Consider that too.
I know how some will respond. Just have faith. Yeh, but in which god?
Responses welcomed.
As an old sexist proverb has it, "A man chases a woman until she catches
him." A man may search for God for an entire lifetime... but on his own
terms and with his own conditions. In which case, he will continue to
search outside the pale of God who seeks an unconditional relationship
with man.
Contradicts the definition of Omnipotent.
If God existed AND wanted a relationship with me THEN we would have a
relationship.
Unless, of course, what He seeks is a consensual relationship, not a
rigged or pre-programmed one.
Fine by me.
If God existed AND wanted a consensual relationship, not a
rigged or pre-programmed one with me THEN we would have a consensual
relationship, not a rigged or pre-programmed one.
I don't get it. What's your line of reasoning?
What's not to get?
If it is POSSIBLE for me to have a relationship (of whatever kind you
wish - I am not limiting it in any fashion) with God AND God wishes me
to have a relationship (of whatever kind) with God
(And part of the
definition of God is that he is a being capable of bringing about any
possible thing he desires - omnipotence)
"Omnipotence is the ability to do anything that can be done - logically
impossible acts are not acts at all - they are not elements of the set
of things that can be done - and the failure to do a non-thing cannot
be a failure." - Mark Richardson
Damn I'm good.
8-)
Ergo if God wishes to establish a relationship, but does not wish to
cancel our freedom to reject, and say a definitive NO to such a
relationship, that's His choice.
Correct.
Now all you have to do is establish that it is actually impossible for
God to offer me a relationship with him without removing my freedom.
I have never seen an argument that establishes the truth of that -
apart from "argument from personal incedulity" "argument from
authority" or "argumentum from popularity".
Want to give it a go?
Mark.
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: I wasted my life searching for God ! |
03 Jul 2005 01:23:28 PM |
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On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 22:42:57 +1000, Mark Richardson
<spam2oblivion@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:15:01 -0400, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net>
wrote:
Richo wrote:
dgillesp wrote:
dave bowman wrote:
LOL, that isn't true, but it could be true of some people who have
lived and died and never found God. I suspect that I too will waste a
few years looking for God, but not a whole lifetime.
This possibility represents to me why we should not put too much of our
life into the search for God. If you have searched for God for a few
years and haven't found God, then move on to something else - such as
family, community, the sciences, the arts, becoming a businessman, etc.
Wouldn't it be a real waste if you did waste your life searching for
God?
Heh, God may not approve of you wasting your life searching for God.
Consider that too.
I know how some will respond. Just have faith. Yeh, but in which god?
Responses welcomed.
As an old sexist proverb has it, "A man chases a woman until she catches
him." A man may search for God for an entire lifetime... but on his own
terms and with his own conditions. In which case, he will continue to
search outside the pale of God who seeks an unconditional relationship
with man.
Contradicts the definition of Omnipotent.
If God existed AND wanted a relationship with me THEN we would have a
relationship.
Unless, of course, what He seeks is a consensual relationship, not a
rigged or pre-programmed one.
Fine by me.
If God existed AND wanted a consensual relationship, not a
rigged or pre-programmed one with me THEN we would have a consensual
relationship, not a rigged or pre-programmed one.
We don't so at least one of the premises is false.
OK?
God sets aside His omnipotence in regard
for our freedom to accept or reject His friendship.
I deny that I have rejected any offers of friendship.
And I should know - I am me and you are not.
Mark.
I believe the Christian "logic" is as follows:
The atheist must have rejected the offer, because, if he didn't, there
would be something wrong about my belief. Therefore I just know the
atheist is lying.
It all makes perfect sense after the conclusion is assumed.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
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| User: "Mark Richardson" |
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| Title: Re: I wasted my life searching for God ! |
04 Jul 2005 02:42:59 AM |
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On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 20:23:28 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 22:42:57 +1000, Mark Richardson
<spam2oblivion@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:15:01 -0400, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net>
wrote:
<snip>
God sets aside His omnipotence in regard
for our freedom to accept or reject His friendship.
I deny that I have rejected any offers of friendship.
And I should know - I am me and you are not.
Mark.
I believe the Christian "logic" is as follows:
The atheist must have rejected the offer, because, if he didn't, there
would be something wrong about my belief. Therefore I just know the
atheist is lying.
It all makes perfect sense after the conclusion is assumed.
Thomas P.
I think you hit the nail on the head Thomas.
I was waiting for Denny to explicitly call me a liar or to explicitly
state that he knows my own mind better than me.
So far he has restricted himself to merely impling it.
Mark.
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| User: "dgillesp" |
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| Title: Re: I wasted my life searching for God ! |
04 Jul 2005 11:28:10 AM |
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Mark Richardson wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 20:23:28 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 22:42:57 +1000, Mark Richardson
<spam2oblivion@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:15:01 -0400, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net>
wrote:
<snip>
God sets aside His omnipotence in regard
for our freedom to accept or reject His friendship.
I deny that I have rejected any offers of friendship.
And I should know - I am me and you are not.
Mark.
I believe the Christian "logic" is as follows:
The atheist must have rejected the offer, because, if he didn't, there
would be something wrong about my belief. Therefore I just know the
atheist is lying.
Both atheist and theist share the same human condition which Christians
understand to be one of default alienation from the Creator (original
sin). As for rejecting the offer of reconciliation, some have and some
have not, but first one must be aware that the offer exists. Many there
be who are not and never have been aware. No, the atheist is not to be
accused of lying.
It all makes perfect sense after the conclusion is assumed.
Thomas P.
I think you hit the nail on the head Thomas.
I was waiting for Denny to explicitly call me a liar or to explicitly
state that he knows my own mind better than me.
Sorry to disappoint you, but can't help but wonder what makes you so
sure those are the only options for a Christian.
So far he has restricted himself to merely impling it.
Reading implications into another's perspective is often a matter of
one's own interpretation. "We don't see things as they are, we see them
as we are." Anaïs Nin
Denny
"The curse of a godless man can sound more pleasant in God's ears than
the Hallelujah of the pious." - Martin Luther
Mark.
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: I wasted my life searching for God ! |
04 Jul 2005 05:18:12 PM |
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On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:28:10 -0400, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net>
wrote:
Mark Richardson wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 20:23:28 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 22:42:57 +1000, Mark Richardson
<spam2oblivion@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:15:01 -0400, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net>
wrote:
<snip>
God sets aside His omnipotence in regard
for our freedom to accept or reject His friendship.
I deny that I have rejected any offers of friendship.
And I should know - I am me and you are not.
Mark.
I believe the Christian "logic" is as follows:
The atheist must have rejected the offer, because, if he didn't, there
would be something wrong about my belief. Therefore I just know the
atheist is lying.
Both atheist and theist share the same human condition which Christians
understand to be one of default alienation from the Creator (original
sin). As for rejecting the offer of reconciliation, some have and some
have not, but first one must be aware that the offer exists. Many there
be who are not and never have been aware. No, the atheist is not to be
accused of lying.
That does not solve your problem. If god made the offer, why wouldn't
the atheist be aware of it?
It all makes perfect sense after the conclusion is assumed.
Thomas P.
I think you hit the nail on the head Thomas.
I was waiting for Denny to explicitly call me a liar or to explicitly
state that he knows my own mind better than me.
Sorry to disappoint you, but can't help but wonder what makes you so
sure those are the only options for a Christian.
The other one being that god didn't do a good enough job of delivering
the message.
So far he has restricted himself to merely impling it.
Reading implications into another's perspective is often a matter of
one's own interpretation. "We don't see things as they are, we see them
as we are." Anaïs Nin
You certainly do, and inconsistency doesn't seem to bother you at all.
Denny
"The curse of a godless man can sound more pleasant in God's ears than
the Hallelujah of the pious." - Martin Luther
Pure tripe.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
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| User: "dgillesp" |
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| Title: Re: I wasted my life searching for God ! |
05 Jul 2005 08:45:16 AM |
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thomas p wrote:
On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:28:10 -0400, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net>
wrote:
Mark Richardson wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 20:23:28 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 22:42:57 +1000, Mark Richardson
<spam2oblivion@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:15:01 -0400, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net>
wrote:
<snip>
God sets aside His omnipotence in regard
for our freedom to accept or reject His friendship.
I deny that I have rejected any offers of friendship.
And I should know - I am me and you are not.
Mark.
I believe the Christian "logic" is as follows:
The atheist must have rejected the offer, because, if he didn't, there
would be something wrong about my belief. Therefore I just know the
atheist is lying.
Both atheist and theist share the same human condition which Christians
understand to be one of default alienation from the Creator (original
sin). As for rejecting the offer of reconciliation, some have and some
have not, but first one must be aware that the offer exists. Many there
be who are not and never have been aware. No, the atheist is not to be
accused of lying.
That does not solve your problem. If god made the offer, why wouldn't
the atheist be aware of it?
It's a matter of timing as in all things human.
It all makes perfect sense after the conclusion is assumed.
Thomas P.
I think you hit the nail on the head Thomas.
I was waiting for Denny to explicitly call me a liar or to explicitly
state that he knows my own mind better than me.
Sorry to disappoint you, but can't help but wonder what makes you so
sure those are the only options for a Christian.
The other one being that god didn't do a good enough job of delivering
the message.
He did but we killed the messenger, didn't we?
So far he has restricted himself to merely impling it.
Reading implications into another's perspective is often a matter of
one's own interpretation. "We don't see things as they are, we see them
as we are." Anaïs Nin
You certainly do, and inconsistency doesn't seem to bother you at all.
Denny
"The curse of a godless man can sound more pleasant in God's ears than
the Hallelujah of the pious." - Martin Luther
Pure tripe.
But it does open up a different perspective, don't you think?
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
Denny
--
"The curse of a godless man can sound more pleasant in God's ears
than the Hallelujah of the pious." - Martin Luther
.
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: I wasted my life searching for God ! |
05 Jul 2005 01:11:22 PM |
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On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 09:45:16 -0400, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net>
wrote:
thomas p wrote:
On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:28:10 -0400, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net>
wrote:
Mark Richardson wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 20:23:28 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 22:42:57 +1000, Mark Richardson
<spam2oblivion@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:15:01 -0400, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net>
wrote:
<snip>
God sets aside His omnipotence in regard
for our freedom to accept or reject His friendship.
I deny that I have rejected any offers of friendship.
And I should know - I am me and you are not.
Mark.
I believe the Christian "logic" is as follows:
The atheist must have rejected the offer, because, if he didn't, there
would be something wrong about my belief. Therefore I just know the
atheist is lying.
Both atheist and theist share the same human condition which Christians
understand to be one of default alienation from the Creator (original
sin). As for rejecting the offer of reconciliation, some have and some
have not, but first one must be aware that the offer exists. Many there
be who are not and never have been aware. No, the atheist is not to be
accused of lying.
That does not solve your problem. If god made the offer, why wouldn't
the atheist be aware of it?
It's a matter of timing as in all things human.
That is a non-anaswer. I am not aware of getting any message from any
god. Either I am lying, or your belief is false. You have already
said that you are not accusing atheists of lying when they say they
got no message. Welcome to the fold.
It all makes perfect sense after the conclusion is assumed.
Thomas P.
I think you hit the nail on the head Thomas.
I was waiting for Denny to explicitly call me a liar or to explicitly
state that he knows my own mind better than me.
Sorry to disappoint you, but can't help but wonder what makes you so
sure those are the only options for a Christian.
The other one being that god didn't do a good enough job of delivering
the message.
He did but we killed the messenger, didn't we?
Did we? I thought you said you were not accusing atheists of lying
when they said they did not get any message. Actually I figured you
would contradict yourself, but I didn't think you would do it so
quickly or so openly.
So far he has restricted himself to merely impling it.
Reading implications into another's perspective is often a matter of
one's own interpretation. "We don't see things as they are, we see them
as we are." Anaïs Nin
You certainly do, and inconsistency doesn't seem to bother you at all.
Denny
"The curse of a godless man can sound more pleasant in God's ears than
the Hallelujah of the pious." - Martin Luther
Pure tripe.
But it does open up a different perspective, don't you think?
No, it is tripe.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
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| User: "igtheist" |
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| Title: Re: I wasted my life searching for God ! |
13 Jul 2005 08:27:11 PM |
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dgillesp wrote:
thomas p wrote:
The other one being that god didn't do a good enough job of delivering
the message.
He did but we killed the messenger, didn't we?
What's this "we" ***** paleface. I wasn't there. Hell I'm not even a
Jew.
.
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: I wasted my life searching for God ! |
01 Jul 2005 04:19:37 PM |
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On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:15:01 -0400, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net>
wrote:
Richo wrote:
dgillesp wrote:
dave bowman wrote:
LOL, that isn't true, but it could be true of some people who have
lived and died and never found God. I suspect that I too will waste a
few years looking for God, but not a whole lifetime.
This possibility represents to me why we should not put too much of our
life into the search for God. If you have searched for God for a few
years and haven't found God, then move on to something else - such as
family, community, the sciences, the arts, becoming a businessman, etc.
Wouldn't it be a real waste if you did waste your life searching for
God?
Heh, God may not approve of you wasting your life searching for God.
Consider that too.
I know how some will respond. Just have faith. Yeh, but in which god?
Responses welcomed.
As an old sexist proverb has it, "A man chases a woman until she catches
him." A man may search for God for an entire lifetime... but on his own
terms and with his own conditions. In which case, he will continue to
search outside the pale of God who seeks an unconditional relationship
with man.
Contradicts the definition of Omnipotent.
If God existed AND wanted a relationship with me THEN we would have a
relationship.
Unless, of course, what He seeks is a consensual relationship, not a
rigged or pre-programmed one. God sets aside His omnipotence in regard
for our freedom to accept or reject His friendship.
That would require him to ask.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
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| User: "Ben Goren" |
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| Title: Re: I wasted my life searching for God ! |
01 Jul 2005 12:44:02 AM |
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dgillesp wrote:
Unless, of course, what He seeks is a consensual relationship,
not a rigged or pre-programmed one. God sets aside His
omnipotence in regard for our freedom to accept or reject His
friendship.
There are /so/ many problems with this paragraph, I don't even
know where to begin. I guess I'll settle for just two.
First, the whole premise is highly insulting and amoral. God wants
us to have a relationship with him so bad that he'll torture us
for all eternity if we don't, but he's gonna play shy little
wallflower to make us prove that we really mean it. Most people
grow out of that kind of infantilism by the time they get to
college; why should I have any interest in a god who's that
shallow?
Second, there's absolutely no way an omnipotent being could ``set
aside'' his omnipotence. It's no different from trying to give
your car a mind of its own. You can take your hands off the
wheel...but you're still in control, /not/ the car. The instant
you don't like where it's going, all you have to do is put your
hands back on the wheel. If you keep your hands off the wheel,
it's because you're happy with where the car is going, is all.
Cheers,
b&
--
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
God can never prove that this sentence is true.
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