| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"johac" |
| Date: |
28 Jun 2007 12:54:22 AM |
| Object: |
ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
Part 1:
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2007/04/id_and_junk_dna.php
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally misunderstand the
genome, not to mention biology in general.
---
ID and Junk DNA, Part 2
By Ed Brayton Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 01:13:02 PM EST
topic: Attack on Science section:Front Page printable version print
this story
The ID crowd has been all abuzz lately over junk DNA after a very bad
article in Wired appeared on the subject. Whenever there is an article
in the scientific literature proposing a possible function for some
specific type of non-coding DNA, the ID advocates immediately jump up to
make one of two types of arguments. Argument type one is this:
Scientists have always said that junk DNA is all useless and
functionless and this proves them wrong. See how stupid those scientists
are? You shouldn't trust anything they say.
The last part is typically implied, of course, but that is exactly why
they make this argument. The second form of argument is more specific:
Evolution says that junk DNA is all useless, but ID predicts that junk
DNA has function. So now that this article shows that (some particular
type of non-coding DNA sequence) might have some particular function, ID
has been shown to make accurate predictions.
Back in April I showed why this argument is hypocritical: it requires
the kind of assumptions (or "side information") about the nature of the
designer that, in every other context of the ID dispute, they claim
can't be known or assumed. Yet here is Stephen Meyer making exactly that
claim in the Wired article:
The opossum data revealed that more than 95 percent of the
evolutionary genetic changes in humans since the split with a common
human-possum ancestor occurred in the "junk" regions of the genome.
Creationists say it's also evidence that God created all life, because
God does not create junk. Nothing in creation, they say, was left to
chance.
"It is a confirmation of a natural empirical prediction or
expectation of the theory of intelligent design, and it disconfirms the
neo-Darwinian hypothesis," said Stephen Meyer, director of the Center
for Science and Culture at the Discovery Institute in Seattle.
Advocates like Meyer are increasingly latching onto scientific
evidence to support the theory of intelligent design, a modern arm of
creationism that claims life is not the result of natural selection but
of an intelligent creator. Most scientists believe that intelligent
design is not science. But Meyer says the opossum data supports
intelligent design's prediction that junk DNA sequences aren't random,
but important genetic material. It's an argument Meyer makes in his
yet-to-be-published manuscript, The DNA Enigma.
But here's something very important that neither Meyer nor any other ID
advocate will tell you: their argument requires that every single bit of
non-coding DNA have a function. In human beings, only about 5% of our
genome actually codes for traits in the phenotype. The rest of it is not
just one thing called "junk DNA", it is made up of a variety of other
types of DNA including transposable elements, non-functional duplicates,
retroviral insertions and much more. And yes, some types of non-coding
DNA may well have function, as scientists have increasingly found. But
as T. Ryan Gregory, an evolutionary biologist who specializes in genome
size, points out, there has never been a time when scientists actually
believed that all non-coding DNA had to be functionless:
In 1972, Susumu Ohno coined the term "junk DNA". The idea did not
come from throwing his hands up and saying "we don't know what it does
so let's just assume it is useless and call it junk". He developed the
idea based on knowledge about a mechanism by which non-coding DNA
accumulates: the duplication and inactivation of genes. "Junk DNA," as
formulated by Ohno, referred to what we now call pseudogenes, which are
non-functional from a protein-coding standpoint by definition.
Nevertheless, a long list of possible functions for non-coding DNA
continued to be proposed in the scientific literature.
In 1979, Gould and Lewontin published their classic "spandrels"
paper (Proc. R. Soc. Lond. B 205: 581-598) in which they railed against
the apparent tendency of biologists to attribute function to every
feature of organisms. In the same vein, Doolittle and Sapienza published
a paper in 1980 entitled "Selfish genes, the phenotype paradigm and
genome evolution" (Nature 284: 601-603). In it, they argued that there
was far too much emphasis on function at the organism level in
explanations for the presence of so much non-coding DNA. Instead, they
argued, self-replicating sequences (transposable elements) may be there
simply because they are good at being there, independent of effects (let
alone functions) at the organism level. Many biologists took their point
seriously and began thinking about selection at two levels, within the
genome and on organismal phenotypes. Meanwhile, functions for non-coding
DNA continued to be postulated by other authors.
As the tools of molecular genetics grew increasingly powerful, there
was a shift toward close examinations of protein-coding genes in some
circles, and something of a divide emerged between researchers
interested in particular sequences and others focusing on genome size
and other large-scale features. This became apparent when technological
advances allowed thoughts of sequencing the entire human genome: a
question asked in all seriousness was whether the project should bother
with the "junk".
Of course, there is now a much greater link between genome
sequencing and genome size research. For one, you need to know how much
DNA is there just to get funding. More importantly, sequence analysis is
shedding light on the types of non-coding DNA responsible for the
differences in genome size, and non-coding DNA is proving to be at least
as interesting as the genic portions.
As I said, in order for the 2nd argument to be correct - if junk DNA has
to be functional because "God doesn't make junk" - then that means that
all non-coding DNA has to prove to be functional. And Gregory points out
just how ridiculous that claim is when you look at the radically
differing genome sizes among different types of organisms. He proposes
what he calls the Onion test:
The onion test is a simple reality check for anyone who thinks they
have come up with a universal function for non-coding DNA1. Whatever
your proposed function, ask yourself this question: Can I explain why an
onion needs about five times more non-coding DNA for this function than
a human?
The onion, Allium cepa, is a diploid (2n = 16) plant with a haploid
genome size of about 17 pg. Human, Homo sapiens, is a diploid (2n = 46)
animal with a haploid genome size of about 3.5 pg. This comparison is
chosen more or less arbitrarily (there are far bigger genomes than
onion, and far smaller ones than human), but it makes the problem of
universal function for non-coding DNA clear.
Further, if you think perhaps onions are somehow special, consider
that members of the genus Allium range in genome size from 7 pg to 31.5
pg. So why can A. altyncolicum make do with one fifth as much
regulation, structural maintenance, protection against mutagens, or
[insert preferred universal function] as A. ursinum?
His challenge will, no doubt, go completely unanswered by ID advocates.
They cannot answer it and they know it. Nor will his argument that
finding function for some types of non-coding DNA, far from being a
prediction of ID, can only be done within an evolutionary framework:
Identification of function is done by evolutionary biologists and
genome researchers using an explicit evolutionary framework. One of the
best indications of function that we have for non-coding DNA is to find
parts of it conserved among species. This suggests that changes to the
sequence have been selected against over long stretches of time because
those regions play a significant role. Obviously you can not talk about
evolutionarily conserved DNA without evolutionary change.
Or without common descent, of course. The bottom line is this: when ID
advocates start blathering on about junk DNA, the only real junk is in
their arguments.
---
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2007/6/27/13132/0752
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
28 Jun 2007 09:13:13 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally misunderstand the
genome, not to mention biology in general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is redundant...
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"What the hell is an aluminum Falcon?"
.
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|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
28 Jun 2007 05:38:26 PM |
|
|
In article <mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally misunderstand the
genome, not to mention biology in general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
28 Jun 2007 05:45:33 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally misunderstand the
genome, not to mention biology in general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"What the hell is an aluminum Falcon?"
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
28 Jun 2007 11:45:32 PM |
|
|
In article <9NadnYpRC8OQpxnbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally misunderstand the
genome, not to mention biology in general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
Yes. If we can get them to believe that computers are 'of the devil',
perhaps they won't use them to troll us.
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
29 Jun 2007 09:32:33 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:45:32 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <9NadnYpRC8OQpxnbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally misunderstand
the genome, not to mention biology in general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
Yes. If we can get them to believe that computers are 'of the devil',
perhaps they won't use them to troll us.
We should be sure to mention the daemons.
I mean, even if they're not on a *Nix, most of the Internet
infrastructure *is...
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"Behold the foul stench of Skeletor's breakfast burrito!"
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
30 Jun 2007 12:52:26 AM |
|
|
In article <mOadnYM1AK2chRjbnZ2dnUVZ_ojinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:45:32 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <9NadnYpRC8OQpxnbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally misunderstand
the genome, not to mention biology in general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
Yes. If we can get them to believe that computers are 'of the devil',
perhaps they won't use them to troll us.
We should be sure to mention the daemons.
I mean, even if they're not on a *Nix, most of the Internet
infrastructure *is...
LOL! I don't know if I can find the link anymore, but some years ago, a
preacher claimed that computers were evil because there was just enough
space inside one to hide a small demon.
I think we concluded that he must have been using Micro$oft software.
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
30 Jun 2007 01:20:43 AM |
|
|
"johac" <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:jhachmann-2BD212.22522629062007@news.giganews.com...
In article <mOadnYM1AK2chRjbnZ2dnUVZ_ojinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:45:32 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <9NadnYpRC8OQpxnbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally misunderstand
the genome, not to mention biology in general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
Yes. If we can get them to believe that computers are 'of the devil',
perhaps they won't use them to troll us.
We should be sure to mention the daemons.
I mean, even if they're not on a *Nix, most of the Internet
infrastructure *is...
LOL! I don't know if I can find the link anymore, but some years ago, a
preacher claimed that computers were evil because there was just enough
space inside one to hide a small demon.
I think we concluded that he must have been using Micro$oft software.
In that case, we'd better not tell them about the evil
pixies that hide in the Internet and come back into the
real world through computer screens every night to
wreak havoc. If the fundies ever found out about that,
they'd never touch a computer again.
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
BAAWA Knight & Bible Thumper Thumper
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
When fascism comes to America, it will be
wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross -
Sinclair Lewis
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
30 Jun 2007 06:15:15 PM |
|
|
In article <mL-dnbRyGKWraxjbnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
"johac" <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:jhachmann-2BD212.22522629062007@news.giganews.com...
In article <mOadnYM1AK2chRjbnZ2dnUVZ_ojinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:45:32 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <9NadnYpRC8OQpxnbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally misunderstand
the genome, not to mention biology in general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
Yes. If we can get them to believe that computers are 'of the devil',
perhaps they won't use them to troll us.
We should be sure to mention the daemons.
I mean, even if they're not on a *Nix, most of the Internet
infrastructure *is...
LOL! I don't know if I can find the link anymore, but some years ago, a
preacher claimed that computers were evil because there was just enough
space inside one to hide a small demon.
I think we concluded that he must have been using Micro$oft software.
In that case, we'd better not tell them about the evil
pixies that hide in the Internet and come back into the
real world through computer screens every night to
wreak havoc. If the fundies ever found out about that,
they'd never touch a computer again.
Let's see. Then perhaps they wouldn't troll alt. atheism so much. Let's
tel them!
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "James Norris" |
|
| Title: Design for a Conscious Mechanoid |
30 Jun 2007 04:14:46 AM |
|
|
On Jun 30, 7:20?am, "Michelle Malkin" <hypati...@comcast.net> wrote:
"johac" <jhachm...@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:jhachmann-2BD212.22522629062007@news.giganews.com...
In article <mOadnYM1AK2chRjbnZ2dnUVZ_ojin...@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <g...@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:45:32 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <9NadnYpRC8OQpxnbnZ2dnUVZ_gidn...@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <g...@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdn...@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <g...@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally misunderstand
the genome, not to mention biology in general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
Yes. If we can get them to believe that computers are 'of the devil',
perhaps they won't use them to troll us.
We should be sure to mention the daemons.
I mean, even if they're not on a *Nix, most of the Internet
infrastructure *is...
LOL! I don't know if I can find the link anymore, but some years ago, a
preacher claimed that computers were evil because there was just enough
space inside one to hide a small demon.
I think we concluded that he must have been using Micro$oft software.
In that case, we'd better not tell them about the evil
pixies that hide in the Internet and come back into the
real world through computer screens every night to
wreak havoc. If the fundies ever found out about that,
they'd never touch a computer again.
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
BAAWA Knight & Bible Thumper Thumper
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
When fascism comes to America, it will be
wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross -
Sinclair Lewis
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
On Jun 30, 4:26 am, James Norris <JimNorri...@aol.com> wrote:
On Jun 30, 3:25?am, someone2 <glenn.spig...@btinternet.com> wrote:
On Jun 30, 1:55 am, James Norris <JimNorri...@aol.com> wrote:
Design for a Conscious Mechanoid
[Just to deter the predictable 'define what you mean by conscious'
posting: 'Conscious' means 'aware of reality' - a human being is
conscious, but a piece of paper is not conscious. If there is still a
problem with understanding the word 'conscious', try using a
dictionary.]
Start off with millions of identical ordinary (non-conscious) robots.
Each robot is pre-programmed to collect things from the environment at
random (twigs, elastic bands, teadcups, wheels, orange peel etc), and
incorporate them into itself, gradually replacing all its original
component parts as it does so. Now let the robots free to interact
with the environment, and watch what happens.
Most of the robots would cease to function quite rapidly, of course.
They might replace one of their vital components (the computer
program, for example), with a piece of orange peel and immediately
stop working permanently. Some might continue to function for quite a
while, making meaningless minor alterations to their original
structure, without affecting their basic operation as a programmed
mechanical device, which we knew to be non-conscious. We can ignore
robots which have replaced themselves with biological material which
was already conscious, because that is obviously not what we are
interested in.
The robots we are interested in are those which manage to replace all
their constituent components, including their original computer
hardware and software, but are still functioning. They, like
ourselves, have been created out of material from the environment, so
they might be conscious, as we are.
A certain amount of complexity is required for consciousness, and this
could be provided, for example, by using the twigs to twang the
elastic bands - the vibrational properties of the elastic bands could
easily carry any complexity necessary for the occurrence of thought.
For that to happen by chance is extremely unlikely of course, as is
the likelihood of millions of monkeys randomly operating typewriters
producing the occasional Shakespeare sonnet by chance, but if you left
them long enough, they would eventually do it!
Consciousness is a subjective experience, so there is no way of
determining whether or not anything or anybody is conscious. In the
design above, the construction allows the possibility that
consciousness might occur in a device which was originally non-
conscious. The random self-modifying behaviour may have led to a
wheeled mechanism made out of orange peel, teacups and elastic bands
held together with bits of wood, with its understanding of reality
contained in the vibrational processes occurring in the twig-twanged
elastic bands, which wanders around in the natural environment
apparently decorating itself with the bits of garbage it picks up.
Perhaps the device has improved on its original design and is now
conscious? At any rate, it certainly wouldn't be less conscious than
it was to begin with.
James Norris
I read your thread. Was it a satirical portrayal of atheist
"reasoning"?
No, it was a design for a conscious entity, neither biological nor
computer-based.
I especially liked the bit:
"A certain amount of complexity is required for consciousness, and
this could be provided, for example, by using the twigs to twang the
elastic bands - the vibrational properties of the elastic bands could
easily carry any complexity necessary for the occurrence of thought."
You could imagine atheists setting themselves up as authorities on
which tunes played on a guitar gave rise to consciousness, and whether
one string, or all the strings, or the whole guitar had the
experiences. They could debate on to what extent they could
anthropomorphise the conscious experience a certain song gave.
The notion of vibrations carrying information was an example of how
the necessary complexity for 'thoughts' might arise in the mechanism.
I understand from your earlier postings that you believe that human
beings have a non-physical 'soul', so I'm not sure why you think my
suggestion is so laughable.
Though the part where you said, "consciousness is a subjective
experience, so there is no way of determining whether or not anything
or anybody is conscious", did illustrate that from an atheist
perspective there would be no experimental difference expected whether
something was or wasn't consciously experiencing, which is something a
few of them here are having problems coming to terms with.
I don't know why you pick on atheists in particular as having a
problem with the unverifiability of subjective experiences, but
anyway, perhaps many of us do - I personally don't.
Still, very amusing, assuming of course you weren't being serious, and
an absolute nutter.
An absolute nutter in your opinion might be someone who believed that
they had four souls, rather than just the one, I suppose.
The Design for a Conscious Mechanoid is quite serious - a hypothetical
example of how a constructed 'mechanical' (ie non-biological) being
might be conscious. I'm not suggesting that it would ever work in
reality, any more than that a million monkeys typing on a million
typewriters for a million years to produce the works of Shakespeare
would ever work in reality. The example draws attention to the
salient aspects of an interesting question. I'm glad you found it
amusing though. I always try to make my postings interesting and
memorable, and humour is a well-known didactic tool.
The problem with no experimental difference expected whether something
was or wasn't consciously experiencing, is that it means whether it
was or wasn't, couldn't be thought to influence behaviour. If that was
the case, it would have to be a coincidence that our behaviour
expressed the conscious experiences we actually have (it couldn't have
been influenced by their existance).
You are trying to discuss consciousness using behavioural concepts.
The behavioural understanding of the psyche has little to say about
consciousness - the brain reacts to external stimuli and produces
behaviour in the organism, which is studied to give an understanding
of the workings of the brain. Cognitive models of consciousness,
which you should look into as they might help you express your
argument, are inside-out compared to the behavioural viewpoint. The
'mind' (which is believed to exist because of processes occurring in
the brain) is considered as an Ego, with Superego, Id and various
other paraphernalia, and these all contribute to goal-directed
behaviour caused by subjective 'needs' which the conscious being tries
to satisfy.
Anyway, interesting post. So have you any thoughts on which tunes
played on a guitar might be give rise to, the string(s) or the guitar
thinking? Any thoughts on what those thoughts might be? I ask you, as
I guess you would be the closest thing to a world authority on the
concept, or have you got competition?
No, you haven't really grasped the point about the vibrations in the
example. I was just pointing out that a certain amount of complexity
is required for consciousness, so complexity is needed somewhere in
the mechanoid. Vibrating systems can contain information of arbitrary
complexity - they don't have to be made out of physical elastic
bands. Vibrations occur in strings in general, these could be the
theoretical strings of string-theory, or hair-like cilia made from
millions of tiny pinheads all oscillating in a plasma field, if you
think elastic bands are too primitive a device to be worth
considering. Some people think that Mobius strips are weirdly clever
- perhaps if millions of elastic bands were Mobius strips interacting
in a complex 3-d lattice, with carefully placed twigs and twiglets to
provide the necessary resonance and feedback effects, it would be
rather more likely to have the necessary complexity for conscious
awareness of reality, than using just the one guitar string that you
suggest?
Discuss.
.
|
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|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
14 Jul 2007 03:31:23 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:52:26 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote in alt.atheism
In article <mOadnYM1AK2chRjbnZ2dnUVZ_ojinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:45:32 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <9NadnYpRC8OQpxnbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally misunderstand
the genome, not to mention biology in general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
Yes. If we can get them to believe that computers are 'of the devil',
perhaps they won't use them to troll us.
We should be sure to mention the daemons.
I mean, even if they're not on a *Nix, most of the Internet
infrastructure *is...
LOL! I don't know if I can find the link anymore, but some years ago, a
preacher claimed that computers were evil because there was just enough
space inside one to hide a small demon.
http://www.gbpflag.org/files/38/_photos/Computer%20inventor%20WW2%20hero%20Alan%20Turing%20persecuted%20for%20being%20gay.jpg
I think we concluded that he must have been using Micro$oft software.
--
Atheist n A person to be pitied in that he is
unable to believe things for which there is
no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of
a convenient means of feeling superior to others.
—Chaz Bufe, The American Heretic’s Dictionary
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
14 Jul 2007 06:56:23 PM |
|
|
In article <hkci93h48g9g3asd4fdl6tm153sqqcfqr1@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:52:26 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote in alt.atheism
In article <mOadnYM1AK2chRjbnZ2dnUVZ_ojinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:45:32 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <9NadnYpRC8OQpxnbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally misunderstand
the genome, not to mention biology in general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
Yes. If we can get them to believe that computers are 'of the devil',
perhaps they won't use them to troll us.
We should be sure to mention the daemons.
I mean, even if they're not on a *Nix, most of the Internet
infrastructure *is...
LOL! I don't know if I can find the link anymore, but some years ago, a
preacher claimed that computers were evil because there was just enough
space inside one to hide a small demon.
http://www.gbpflag.org/files/38/_photos/Computer%20inventor%20WW2%20hero%20Ala
n%20Turing%20persecuted%20for%20being%20gay.jpg
LMAO!!! Someone should tell the Phelpses.
I think we concluded that he must have been using Micro$oft software.
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
18 Jul 2007 03:12:55 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 16:56:23 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote in alt.atheism
In article <hkci93h48g9g3asd4fdl6tm153sqqcfqr1@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:52:26 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote in alt.atheism
In article <mOadnYM1AK2chRjbnZ2dnUVZ_ojinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:45:32 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <9NadnYpRC8OQpxnbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally misunderstand
the genome, not to mention biology in general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
Yes. If we can get them to believe that computers are 'of the devil',
perhaps they won't use them to troll us.
We should be sure to mention the daemons.
I mean, even if they're not on a *Nix, most of the Internet
infrastructure *is...
LOL! I don't know if I can find the link anymore, but some years ago, a
preacher claimed that computers were evil because there was just enough
space inside one to hide a small demon.
http://www.gbpflag.org/files/38/_photos/Computer%20inventor%20WW2%20hero%20Ala
n%20Turing%20persecuted%20for%20being%20gay.jpg
LMAO!!! Someone should tell the Phelpses.
big grin
--
Atheist n A person to be pitied in that he is
unable to believe things for which there is
no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of
a convenient means of feeling superior to others.
—Chaz Bufe, The American Heretic’s Dictionary
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
30 Jun 2007 09:38:51 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:52:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mOadnYM1AK2chRjbnZ2dnUVZ_ojinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:45:32 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <9NadnYpRC8OQpxnbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally
misunderstand the genome, not to mention biology in general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
Yes. If we can get them to believe that computers are 'of the devil',
perhaps they won't use them to troll us.
We should be sure to mention the daemons.
I mean, even if they're not on a *Nix, most of the Internet
infrastructure *is...
LOL! I don't know if I can find the link anymore, but some years ago, a
preacher claimed that computers were evil because there was just enough
space inside one to hide a small demon.
Only one? I have *many daemons in mine!
I think we concluded that he must have been using Micro$oft software.
As da Lard intended!
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"Behold the foul stench of Skeletor's breakfast burrito!"
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
30 Jun 2007 06:02:53 PM |
|
|
In article <_vidnRBBMINm9xvbnZ2dnUVZ_tvinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:52:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mOadnYM1AK2chRjbnZ2dnUVZ_ojinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:45:32 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <9NadnYpRC8OQpxnbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally
misunderstand the genome, not to mention biology in general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
Yes. If we can get them to believe that computers are 'of the devil',
perhaps they won't use them to troll us.
We should be sure to mention the daemons.
I mean, even if they're not on a *Nix, most of the Internet
infrastructure *is...
LOL! I don't know if I can find the link anymore, but some years ago, a
preacher claimed that computers were evil because there was just enough
space inside one to hide a small demon.
Only one? I have *many daemons in mine!
Vista?
I think we concluded that he must have been using Micro$oft software.
As da Lard intended!
By the grease of da Lard go I.
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Don Martin" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
01 Jul 2007 08:30:12 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:02:53 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
In article <_vidnRBBMINm9xvbnZ2dnUVZ_tvinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:52:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mOadnYM1AK2chRjbnZ2dnUVZ_ojinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:45:32 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <9NadnYpRC8OQpxnbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally
misunderstand the genome, not to mention biology in general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
Yes. If we can get them to believe that computers are 'of the devil',
perhaps they won't use them to troll us.
We should be sure to mention the daemons.
I mean, even if they're not on a *Nix, most of the Internet
infrastructure *is...
LOL! I don't know if I can find the link anymore, but some years ago, a
preacher claimed that computers were evil because there was just enough
space inside one to hide a small demon.
Only one? I have *many daemons in mine!
Vista?
I think we concluded that he must have been using Micro$oft software.
As da Lard intended!
By the grease of da Lard go I.
Careful of the step! There is a slippery slope right after it!
Through a jaundiced eye darkly--rheum with a view.
The Squeeky Wheel
http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
01 Jul 2007 06:08:13 PM |
|
|
In article <j1bf83tlbf367n5iqu7ta4a0dooh6ciej6@4ax.com>,
Don Martin <drdonmartin@comcast.net> wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:02:53 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
In article <_vidnRBBMINm9xvbnZ2dnUVZ_tvinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:52:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mOadnYM1AK2chRjbnZ2dnUVZ_ojinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:45:32 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <9NadnYpRC8OQpxnbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally
misunderstand the genome, not to mention biology in general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
Yes. If we can get them to believe that computers are 'of the devil',
perhaps they won't use them to troll us.
We should be sure to mention the daemons.
I mean, even if they're not on a *Nix, most of the Internet
infrastructure *is...
LOL! I don't know if I can find the link anymore, but some years ago, a
preacher claimed that computers were evil because there was just enough
space inside one to hide a small demon.
Only one? I have *many daemons in mine!
Vista?
I think we concluded that he must have been using Micro$oft software.
As da Lard intended!
By the grease of da Lard go I.
Careful of the step! There is a slippery slope right after it!
And somebody greased the skids.
Through a jaundiced eye darkly--rheum with a view.
The Squeeky Wheel
http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
30 Jun 2007 06:17:01 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:02:53 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <_vidnRBBMINm9xvbnZ2dnUVZ_tvinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:52:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mOadnYM1AK2chRjbnZ2dnUVZ_ojinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:45:32 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <9NadnYpRC8OQpxnbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally
misunderstand the genome, not to mention biology in general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is
redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
Yes. If we can get them to believe that computers are 'of the
devil', perhaps they won't use them to troll us.
We should be sure to mention the daemons.
I mean, even if they're not on a *Nix, most of the Internet
infrastructure *is...
LOL! I don't know if I can find the link anymore, but some years ago,
a preacher claimed that computers were evil because there was just
enough space inside one to hide a small demon.
Only one? I have *many daemons in mine!
Vista?
Darwin. See how *evil it is?
Doncha love it, Darwin is Apple's version of FreeBSD which has a devil
for a logo and all *Nix systems run... daemons!
MUUUUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAA!!!!!!!
I think we concluded that he must have been using Micro$oft software.
As da Lard intended!
By the grease of da Lard go I.
We should also remind them that Bill Gates is an atheist...
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"You believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards,
witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, food falling
from the sky, people walking on water, and all sorts of magical,
absurd and primitive stories, and you say that *we* are the
ones that need help?" - Jon Stoll
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
01 Jul 2007 12:45:18 AM |
|
|
In article <afadne7xucjweRvbnZ2dnUVZ_v3inZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:02:53 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <_vidnRBBMINm9xvbnZ2dnUVZ_tvinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:52:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mOadnYM1AK2chRjbnZ2dnUVZ_ojinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:45:32 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <9NadnYpRC8OQpxnbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally
misunderstand the genome, not to mention biology in general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is
redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
Yes. If we can get them to believe that computers are 'of the
devil', perhaps they won't use them to troll us.
We should be sure to mention the daemons.
I mean, even if they're not on a *Nix, most of the Internet
infrastructure *is...
LOL! I don't know if I can find the link anymore, but some years ago,
a preacher claimed that computers were evil because there was just
enough space inside one to hide a small demon.
Only one? I have *many daemons in mine!
Vista?
Darwin. See how *evil it is?
Darwin! An abomination!
Doncha love it, Darwin is Apple's version of FreeBSD which has a devil
for a logo and all *Nix systems run... daemons!
LOL!! I saw that logo. Truly such software is cursed. The fundies are
risking their immortal souls (whatever they're supposed to be) if they
go near it.
MUUUUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAA!!!!!!!
Heh! Heh! Heh!
I think we concluded that he must have been using Micro$oft software.
As da Lard intended!
By the grease of da Lard go I.
We should also remind them that Bill Gates is an atheist...
Right. His software is also cursed. Beware O fundies, the daemons will
reach right through the display screen and drag you straight down to de
Lard's eternal killfile, aka Hell!
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
01 Jul 2007 12:02:28 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 22:45:18 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <afadne7xucjweRvbnZ2dnUVZ_v3inZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:02:53 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <_vidnRBBMINm9xvbnZ2dnUVZ_tvinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:52:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mOadnYM1AK2chRjbnZ2dnUVZ_ojinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:45:32 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <9NadnYpRC8OQpxnbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally
misunderstand the genome, not to mention biology in
general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is
redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
Yes. If we can get them to believe that computers are 'of the
devil', perhaps they won't use them to troll us.
We should be sure to mention the daemons.
I mean, even if they're not on a *Nix, most of the Internet
infrastructure *is...
LOL! I don't know if I can find the link anymore, but some years
ago, a preacher claimed that computers were evil because there was
just enough space inside one to hide a small demon.
Only one? I have *many daemons in mine!
Vista?
Darwin. See how *evil it is?
Darwin! An abomination!
Doncha love it, Darwin is Apple's version of FreeBSD which has a devil
for a logo and all *Nix systems run... daemons!
LOL!! I saw that logo. Truly such software is cursed. The fundies are
risking their immortal souls (whatever they're supposed to be) if they
go near it.
MUUUUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAA!!!!!!!
Heh! Heh! Heh!
Ain't it great? Buy a Mac? But it runs on *Darwin which comes from the
devilish FreeBSD and it runs... daemons!
I think we concluded that he must have been using Micro$oft
software.
As da Lard intended!
By the grease of da Lard go I.
We should also remind them that Bill Gates is an atheist...
Right. His software is also cursed. Beware O fundies, the daemons will
reach right through the display screen and drag you straight down to de
Lard's eternal killfile, aka Hell!
Yes! Atheist software connecting to daemons!!!
In fact, the BSDs are *big time server OSes. Devilish daemons infest the
Internet!
No matter where they turn, Darwin and devils and daemons (oh my)...
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I'd get it if people were just looking for a
way to fill the holes. But they want the holes. They wanna
live in the holes. And they go nuts when someone else
pours dirt in their holes.
"Climb out of your holes people!"
- Dr. House, on faith
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
01 Jul 2007 06:18:25 PM |
|
|
In article <3NudneT8XoC5QxrbnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 22:45:18 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <afadne7xucjweRvbnZ2dnUVZ_v3inZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:02:53 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <_vidnRBBMINm9xvbnZ2dnUVZ_tvinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:52:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mOadnYM1AK2chRjbnZ2dnUVZ_ojinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:45:32 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <9NadnYpRC8OQpxnbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally
misunderstand the genome, not to mention biology in
general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is
redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
Yes. If we can get them to believe that computers are 'of the
devil', perhaps they won't use them to troll us.
We should be sure to mention the daemons.
I mean, even if they're not on a *Nix, most of the Internet
infrastructure *is...
LOL! I don't know if I can find the link anymore, but some years
ago, a preacher claimed that computers were evil because there was
just enough space inside one to hide a small demon.
Only one? I have *many daemons in mine!
Vista?
Darwin. See how *evil it is?
Darwin! An abomination!
Doncha love it, Darwin is Apple's version of FreeBSD which has a devil
for a logo and all *Nix systems run... daemons!
LOL!! I saw that logo. Truly such software is cursed. The fundies are
risking their immortal souls (whatever they're supposed to be) if they
go near it.
MUUUUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAA!!!!!!!
Heh! Heh! Heh!
Ain't it great? Buy a Mac? But it runs on *Darwin which comes from the
devilish FreeBSD and it runs... daemons!
All right!
I think we concluded that he must have been using Micro$oft
software.
As da Lard intended!
By the grease of da Lard go I.
We should also remind them that Bill Gates is an atheist...
Right. His software is also cursed. Beware O fundies, the daemons will
reach right through the display screen and drag you straight down to de
Lard's eternal killfile, aka Hell!
Yes! Atheist software connecting to daemons!!!
LOL!
In fact, the BSDs are *big time server OSes. Devilish daemons infest the
Internet!
No matter where they turn, Darwin and devils and daemons (oh my)...
Heh! When I wanted to use Open Office on my Mac, I did download an
earlier version of Darwin. I then heard about Neo Office, the Mac
version, which I found a lot easier to use.
One of these days I'll try again.
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
02 Jul 2007 11:52:14 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 16:18:25 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <3NudneT8XoC5QxrbnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 22:45:18 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <afadne7xucjweRvbnZ2dnUVZ_v3inZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:02:53 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <_vidnRBBMINm9xvbnZ2dnUVZ_tvinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:52:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mOadnYM1AK2chRjbnZ2dnUVZ_ojinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:45:32 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <9NadnYpRC8OQpxnbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article
<mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally
misunderstand the genome, not to mention biology in
general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is
redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
Yes. If we can get them to believe that computers are 'of
the devil', perhaps they won't use them to troll us.
We should be sure to mention the daemons.
I mean, even if they're not on a *Nix, most of the Internet
infrastructure *is...
LOL! I don't know if I can find the link anymore, but some
years ago, a preacher claimed that computers were evil because
there was just enough space inside one to hide a small demon.
Only one? I have *many daemons in mine!
Vista?
Darwin. See how *evil it is?
Darwin! An abomination!
Doncha love it, Darwin is Apple's version of FreeBSD which has a
devil for a logo and all *Nix systems run... daemons!
LOL!! I saw that logo. Truly such software is cursed. The fundies are
risking their immortal souls (whatever they're supposed to be) if
they go near it.
MUUUUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAA!!!!!!!
Heh! Heh! Heh!
Ain't it great? Buy a Mac? But it runs on *Darwin which comes from the
devilish FreeBSD and it runs... daemons!
All right!
I think we concluded that he must have been using Micro$oft
software.
As da Lard intended!
By the grease of da Lard go I.
We should also remind them that Bill Gates is an atheist...
Right. His software is also cursed. Beware O fundies, the daemons
will reach right through the display screen and drag you straight
down to de Lard's eternal killfile, aka Hell!
Yes! Atheist software connecting to daemons!!!
LOL!
In fact, the BSDs are *big time server OSes. Devilish daemons infest
the Internet!
No matter where they turn, Darwin and devils and daemons (oh my)...
Heh! When I wanted to use Open Office on my Mac, I did download an
earlier version of Darwin. I then heard about Neo Office, the Mac
version, which I found a lot easier to use.
One of these days I'll try again.
Is Neo an Aqua version? I know OO is working on one (it's in alpha last I
looked, I haven't bothered). I didn't think the repackaging crowd
bothered making any changes that drastic...
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace
alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing
it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
- H. L. Mencken
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
02 Jul 2007 05:37:09 PM |
|
|
In article <B9SdnbfnwfajsBTbnZ2dnUVZ_tXinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 16:18:25 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <3NudneT8XoC5QxrbnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 22:45:18 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <afadne7xucjweRvbnZ2dnUVZ_v3inZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:02:53 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <_vidnRBBMINm9xvbnZ2dnUVZ_tvinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:52:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mOadnYM1AK2chRjbnZ2dnUVZ_ojinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:45:32 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <9NadnYpRC8OQpxnbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article
<mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally
misunderstand the genome, not to mention biology in
general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is
redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
Yes. If we can get them to believe that computers are 'of
the devil', perhaps they won't use them to troll us.
We should be sure to mention the daemons.
I mean, even if they're not on a *Nix, most of the Internet
infrastructure *is...
LOL! I don't know if I can find the link anymore, but some
years ago, a preacher claimed that computers were evil because
there was just enough space inside one to hide a small demon.
Only one? I have *many daemons in mine!
Vista?
Darwin. See how *evil it is?
Darwin! An abomination!
Doncha love it, Darwin is Apple's version of FreeBSD which has a
devil for a logo and all *Nix systems run... daemons!
LOL!! I saw that logo. Truly such software is cursed. The fundies are
risking their immortal souls (whatever they're supposed to be) if
they go near it.
MUUUUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAA!!!!!!!
Heh! Heh! Heh!
Ain't it great? Buy a Mac? But it runs on *Darwin which comes from the
devilish FreeBSD and it runs... daemons!
All right!
I think we concluded that he must have been using Micro$oft
software.
As da Lard intended!
By the grease of da Lard go I.
We should also remind them that Bill Gates is an atheist...
Right. His software is also cursed. Beware O fundies, the daemons
will reach right through the display screen and drag you straight
down to de Lard's eternal killfile, aka Hell!
Yes! Atheist software connecting to daemons!!!
LOL!
In fact, the BSDs are *big time server OSes. Devilish daemons infest
the Internet!
No matter where they turn, Darwin and devils and daemons (oh my)...
Heh! When I wanted to use Open Office on my Mac, I did download an
earlier version of Darwin. I then heard about Neo Office, the Mac
version, which I found a lot easier to use.
One of these days I'll try again.
Is Neo an Aqua version? I know OO is working on one (it's in alpha last I
looked, I haven't bothered). I didn't think the repackaging crowd
bothered making any changes that drastic...
They're still working on it. I'm using 2.1. They have some other
upgrades which might be interesting:
http://trinity.neooffice.org/index.php
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
03 Jul 2007 08:22:37 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 15:37:09 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <B9SdnbfnwfajsBTbnZ2dnUVZ_tXinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 16:18:25 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <3NudneT8XoC5QxrbnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 22:45:18 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <afadne7xucjweRvbnZ2dnUVZ_v3inZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:02:53 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <_vidnRBBMINm9xvbnZ2dnUVZ_tvinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:52:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mOadnYM1AK2chRjbnZ2dnUVZ_ojinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:45:32 -0700, johac wrote:
In article
<9NadnYpRC8OQpxnbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article
<mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally
misunderstand the genome, not to mention biology in
general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is
redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
Yes. If we can get them to believe that computers are 'of
the devil', perhaps they won't use them to troll us.
We should be sure to mention the daemons.
I mean, even if they're not on a *Nix, most of the Internet
infrastructure *is...
LOL! I don't know if I can find the link anymore, but some
years ago, a preacher claimed that computers were evil
because there was just enough space inside one to hide a
small demon.
Only one? I have *many daemons in mine!
Vista?
Darwin. See how *evil it is?
Darwin! An abomination!
Doncha love it, Darwin is Apple's version of FreeBSD which has a
devil for a logo and all *Nix systems run... daemons!
LOL!! I saw that logo. Truly such software is cursed. The fundies
are risking their immortal souls (whatever they're supposed to be)
if they go near it.
MUUUUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAA!!!!!!!
Heh! Heh! Heh!
Ain't it great? Buy a Mac? But it runs on *Darwin which comes from
the devilish FreeBSD and it runs... daemons!
All right!
I think we concluded that he must have been using Micro$oft
software.
As da Lard intended!
By the grease of da Lard go I.
We should also remind them that Bill Gates is an atheist...
Right. His software is also cursed. Beware O fundies, the daemons
will reach right through the display screen and drag you straight
down to de Lard's eternal killfile, aka Hell!
Yes! Atheist software connecting to daemons!!!
LOL!
In fact, the BSDs are *big time server OSes. Devilish daemons infest
the Internet!
No matter where they turn, Darwin and devils and daemons (oh my)...
Heh! When I wanted to use Open Office on my Mac, I did download an
earlier version of Darwin. I then heard about Neo Office, the Mac
version, which I found a lot easier to use.
One of these days I'll try again.
Is Neo an Aqua version? I know OO is working on one (it's in alpha last
I looked, I haven't bothered). I didn't think the repackaging crowd
bothered making any changes that drastic...
They're still working on it. I'm using 2.1. They have some other
upgrades which might be interesting:
http://trinity.neooffice.org/index.php
I just downloaded it, I'll have to take a look.
Though I own a copy of Nisus which I like (and which, by the way, I wrote
all my Mac books on all those years ago).
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace
alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing
it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
- H. L. Mencken
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Junk DNA, Part 2 |
03 Jul 2007 11:59:31 PM |
|
|
In article <w9Sdnd8qwsvAaxfbnZ2dnUVZ_t3inZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 15:37:09 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <B9SdnbfnwfajsBTbnZ2dnUVZ_tXinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 16:18:25 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <3NudneT8XoC5QxrbnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 22:45:18 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <afadne7xucjweRvbnZ2dnUVZ_v3inZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:02:53 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <_vidnRBBMINm9xvbnZ2dnUVZ_tvinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:52:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article <mOadnYM1AK2chRjbnZ2dnUVZ_ojinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:45:32 -0700, johac wrote:
In article
<9NadnYpRC8OQpxnbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:26 -0700, johac wrote:
In article
<mYidnYWYIZRkXB7bnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:54:22 -0700, johac wrote:
An answer to the creationists who, as usual totally
misunderstand the genome, not to mention biology in
general.
Well, saying creationists misunderstand biology is
redundant...
True. "If it ain't in thet thar Bible It ain't real."
Well, computers aren't!
(Think they'll go for it?)
Yes. If we can get them to believe that computers are 'of
the devil', perhaps they won't use them to troll us.
We should be sure to mention the daemons.
I mean, even if they're not on a *Nix, most of the Internet
infrastructure *is...
LOL! I don't know if I can find the link anymore, but some
years ago, a preacher claimed that computers were evil
because there was just enough space inside one to hide a
small demon.
Only one? I have *many daemons in mine!
Vista?
Darwin. See how *evil it is?
Darwin! An abomination!
Doncha love it, Darwin is Apple's version of FreeBSD which has a
devil for a logo and all *Nix systems run... daemons!
LOL!! I saw that logo. Truly such software is cursed. The fundies
are risking their immortal souls (whatever they're supposed to be)
if they go near it.
MUUUUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAA!!!!!!!
Heh! Heh! Heh!
Ain't it great? Buy a Mac? But it runs on *Darwin which comes from
the devilish FreeBSD and it runs... daemons!
All right!
I think we concluded that he must have been using Micro$oft
software.
As da Lard intended!
By the grease of da Lard go I.
We should also remind them that Bill Gates is an atheist...
Right. His software is also cursed. Beware O fundies, the daemons
will reach right through the display screen and drag you straight
down to de Lard's eternal killfile, aka Hell!
Yes! Atheist software connecting to daemons!!!
LOL!
In fact, the BSDs are *big time server OSes. Devilish daemons infest
the Internet!
No matter where they turn, Darwin and devils and daemons (oh my)...
Heh! When I wanted to use Open Office on my Mac, I did download an
earlier version of Darwin. I then heard about Neo Office, the Mac
version, which I found a lot easier to use.
One of these days I'll try again.
Is Neo an Aqua version? I know OO is working on one (it's in alpha last
I looked, I haven't bothered). I didn't think the repackaging crowd
bothered making any changes that drastic...
They're still working on it. I'm using 2.1. They have some other
upgrades which might be interesting:
http://trinity.neooffice.org/index.php
I just downloaded it, I'll have to take a look.
Though I own a copy of Nisus which I like (and which, by the way, I wrote
all my Mac books on all those years ago).
I never used it, but I had a friend who swore by it.
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
