| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" |
| Date: |
04 Jan 2005 02:33:44 AM |
| Object: |
If God existed, could it reverse time? |
- - -
Just wondering if the concept of time travel
is part of religious mythos.
If you combine the supposed power of prayer
with the ability to travel back in time, wouldn't
all problems be fixable with a simple prayer
to go back in time and fix things?
Tsunami, no problem, an all-powerful God with
time travel capabilities can fix that.
Holocaust, no problem, an all-powerful God with
time travel capabilities can fix that.
Any and all maladies, via the power of prayer +
time travel, fixable.
- - -
Is there like a commandment or something that says
"And God issueth the edict, thou shalt not ask for
the almighty arrow of time to be reversed, for God
has commanded that time shall forever be in one
direction only, and even God, despite its omnipo-
tent greatness, cannot turn back the hands of time ..."
If there is, I must have missed it. If there's not, why
don't religious followers ask God to go back in time,
to fix things like tsunamis, the holocaust, the death
of relatives, the unpleasant events which occur in
the lives of believers?
Are believers selling themselves short, presuming
the supposedly all-powerful God that they worship
cannot, or will not, reverse the hands of time?
- - -
Seems to me, a God that either cannot, or won't, re-
verse the hands of time, that God is either non-ex-
istent (i.e., imaginary) -or- far short of being all-power-
ful -or- stuck beneath a rock it created -and- cannot
lift.
After all, a God that cannot turn back the hands of time
is a God that must be either imaginary -or- powerless
-or- subsumed 'neath a design of its own making -or-
non-existent.
- - -
A time-travellin'-God, now that would be impressive,
something that could fix all that went wrong. As best
we can determine, all that has gone wrong has not
been fixed, and if life as we know it was so bad that
this is the fix, yikes, life must've really been in bad
shape if this is the best God could do after fixing it.
Surely, the power of prayer as promoted by religions
has endorsed the concept of requesting God to re-
verse time ... and fix past wrongs ... and if not, why
not? Is God so weak that it has no control over time?
Is God a slave to time? Is God a myth? Per religious
mythos that I'm aware of, God is subsumed by the
forward arrow of time, God is so weak that it has no
control over time, God is a slave to time, and God is
myth.
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman
(Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality)
~~~
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: If God existed, could it reverse time? |
04 Jan 2005 07:50:12 PM |
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"Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" <prohumanist@gr8mail.com> wrote in message
news:33v2naF42osapU1@individual.net...
- - -
Just wondering if the concept of time travel
is part of religious mythos.
If you combine the supposed power of prayer
with the ability to travel back in time, wouldn't
all problems be fixable with a simple prayer
to go back in time and fix things?
Tsunami, no problem, an all-powerful God with
time travel capabilities can fix that.
Holocaust, no problem, an all-powerful God with
time travel capabilities can fix that.
Any and all maladies, via the power of prayer +
time travel, fixable.
- - -
Is there like a commandment or something that says
"And God issueth the edict, thou shalt not ask for
the almighty arrow of time to be reversed, for God
has commanded that time shall forever be in one
direction only, and even God, despite its omnipo-
tent greatness, cannot turn back the hands of time ..."
If there is, I must have missed it. If there's not, why
don't religious followers ask God to go back in time,
to fix things like tsunamis, the holocaust, the death
of relatives, the unpleasant events which occur in
the lives of believers?
Are believers selling themselves short, presuming
the supposedly all-powerful God that they worship
cannot, or will not, reverse the hands of time?
- - -
Seems to me, a God that either cannot, or won't, re-
verse the hands of time, that God is either non-ex-
istent (i.e., imaginary) -or- far short of being all-power-
ful -or- stuck beneath a rock it created -and- cannot
lift.
After all, a God that cannot turn back the hands of time
is a God that must be either imaginary -or- powerless
-or- subsumed 'neath a design of its own making -or-
non-existent.
- - -
A time-travellin'-God, now that would be impressive,
something that could fix all that went wrong. As best
we can determine, all that has gone wrong has not
been fixed, and if life as we know it was so bad that
this is the fix, yikes, life must've really been in bad
shape if this is the best God could do after fixing it.
Surely, the power of prayer as promoted by religions
has endorsed the concept of requesting God to re-
verse time ... and fix past wrongs ... and if not, why
not? Is God so weak that it has no control over time?
Is God a slave to time? Is God a myth? Per religious
mythos that I'm aware of, God is subsumed by the
forward arrow of time, God is so weak that it has no
control over time, God is a slave to time, and God is
myth.
It happens after you die, Dumbhead.
--
The argument that everything had a Creator because it's too complicated, is
about as reasonable as saying that it couldn't have been created since it's
too complicated.
It's about like saying that a super flea created a dog. Then
the good fleas go to a great dog in the sky, while the bad unbelieving fleas
are scratched off into a super rug to be forever hungry. If you think dogs
weren't created by a Great Flea then you are an atheist flea.
.
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| User: "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" |
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| Title: Re: If God existed, could it reverse time? |
05 Jan 2005 02:32:06 AM |
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"Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com> wrote ...
"Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" <prohumanist@gr8mail.com>
wrote in ...
- - -
Just wondering if the concept of time travel
is part of religious mythos.
[...]
Surely, the power of prayer as promoted by religions
has endorsed the concept of requesting God to re-
verse time ... and fix past wrongs ... and if not, why
not? Is God so weak that it has no control over time?
Is God a slave to time? Is God a myth? Per religious
mythos that I'm aware of, God is subsumed by the
forward arrow of time, God is so weak that it has no
control over time, God is a slave to time, and God is
myth.
It happens after you die, [...]
Actually, a key element in the religious mythos
is that God can do anything, prayer can move
mountains, faith is valued, but a key missing
element is prayer to undo, anything. Time travel
is a recent aspect of perception, and since it
wasn't a part of the mindset of humans that
wrote the ancient documents, time was always
treated as a forward arrow, no changes allowed
to past events.
Hence, the concepts of guilt, sin, actions re-
quired to impact *future* events, but *never*
any power of the undo, by God, ever. Obviously,
the concept of an all-powerful God did *not*
include the concept of undo, by God, ever, be-
cause that would've run counter to the guilt-trip
motif of religion -- do something (sin), ask for
forgiveness, repent, don't sin again, do some-
thing (sin), ask for forgiveness, repent, don't
sin again (repeat, over and over, always with
the arrow of time going forward).
There is no undo in religion.
For that, we have science-fiction, and loads of
paradoxes for in science-fiction lore, if you
change the past, you change the future, yet
you came from the future which, if past changes
are significant enough, would no longer exist.
The theology of a God who would answer a prayer
to change the past, as far as I'm aware, there is
none. Religion simply states that whatever hap-
pens, God did it or allowed it, and it's irrevocable.
No do-overs in the religious realm, a reflection of
the state of mind of the humans who created the
myths, long ago.
By the way, if God existed and was all-powerful,
surely it could fix its mistakes, like the recent tsu-
nami. Since it doesn't do so, God is either non-
existent, powerless, or malevolent.
I perceive God, all versions, as mythical.
Religious followers? They're faced with the simple
choice of non-existent, powerless, or malevolent.
If non-existent, why believe in it? If powerless, why
try to talk to it and ask it for things? If malevolent,
why worship it, try to talk to it, sing praises regarding
it, and attempt to try to be with it, for eternity?
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman
(Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality)
~~~
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: If God existed, could it reverse time? |
04 Jan 2005 10:35:15 AM |
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On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 02:33:44 -0600, Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
- - -
Just wondering if the concept of time travel is part of religious mythos.
If you combine the supposed power of prayer with the ability to travel
back in time, wouldn't all problems be fixable with a simple prayer to go
back in time and fix things?
Tsunami, no problem, an all-powerful God with time travel capabilities can
fix that.
Holocaust, no problem, an all-powerful God with time travel capabilities
can fix that.
Any and all maladies, via the power of prayer + time travel, fixable.
- - -
Oh, God can reverse time, no problem. He's out of the office for the next
200,000 years. When HE gets back, HE will go back in time and fix lots
of stuff. You just have to be patient. HE doesn't work around your
schedule, you know.
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: If God existed, could it reverse time? |
05 Jan 2005 05:14:08 AM |
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On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 02:33:44 -0600, "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER"
<prohumanist@gr8mail.com> wrote:
Just wondering if the concept of time travel
is part of religious mythos.
It's a part of atheist mythos.
duke
*****
Matthew 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,'
will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he
who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
*****
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| User: "Olrik" |
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| Title: Re: If God existed, could it reverse time? |
04 Jan 2005 10:44:29 PM |
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Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
- - -
Just wondering if the concept of time travel
is part of religious mythos.
Sure. They all want us back to the Middle Ages.
<snip>
--
Olrik
aa #1981
Qualified SMASH member
EAC Chief Food Inspector, Bacon Division
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| User: "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" |
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| Title: Re: If God existed, could it reverse time? |
05 Jan 2005 02:40:00 AM |
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"Olrik" wrote ...
"Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" wrote ...
- - -
Just wondering if the concept of time travel
is part of religious mythos. [...]
Sure. They all want us back to the Middle Ages.
Christianity actually is averse to going there, as it
entailed a lot of torture and murder and is a time
that most of them would like to forget or pretend
that never happened (or was caused by those not
'true' christians).
Islam actually is averse to going there as that was
an age in which Islam was the progressive faith,
with a better grasp of science, logic, and reason
than was present in Christianity at the time. Now,
Islam is a faith far short of its past.
Hinduism, not sure what was going on with that in
the middle ages.
Buddhism, likely as pro-human and naturalistic a
faith in the middle ages as it is now, but I'd have
to research that to be certain.
Judaism, likely a tortured faith in the middle ages
as that has been the history of Judaism and its
followers for most of its history.
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman
(Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality)
~~~
.
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| User: "Olrik" |
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| Title: Re: If God existed, could it reverse time? |
05 Jan 2005 11:36:03 AM |
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Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
"Olrik" wrote ...
"Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" wrote ...
- - -
Just wondering if the concept of time travel
is part of religious mythos. [...]
Sure. They all want us back to the Middle Ages.
Christianity actually is averse to going there, as it
entailed a lot of torture and murder and is a time
that most of them would like to forget or pretend
that never happened (or was caused by those not
'true' christians).
Good point. But I'm sure some would like to go back nonetheless because
it was a time where they pretty much had impunity, and the state and
church worked hand in hand. If only for that, they'd like it.
Islam actually is averse to going there as that was
an age in which Islam was the progressive faith,
with a better grasp of science, logic, and reason
than was present in Christianity at the time.
Maybe at some elite level. But what about the ordinary people? The
sharia was probably enforced even more harshly than today.
Now, Islam is a faith far short of its past.
Hinduism, not sure what was going on with that in
the middle ages.
Buddhism, likely as pro-human and naturalistic a
faith in the middle ages as it is now, but I'd have
to research that to be certain.
Judaism, likely a tortured faith in the middle ages
as that has been the history of Judaism and its
followers for most of its history.
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman
(Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality)
~~~
--
Olrik
aa #1981
Qualified SMASH member
EAC Chief Food Inspector, Bacon Division
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| User: "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" |
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| Title: Re: If God existed, could it reverse time? |
05 Jan 2005 12:39:07 PM |
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"Olrik" wrote ...
"Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" wrote ...
"Olrik" wrote ...
"Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" wrote ...
- - -
Just wondering if the concept of time travel
is part of religious mythos. [...]
Sure. They all want us back to the Middle Ages.
Christianity actually is averse to going there, as it
entailed a lot of torture and murder and is a time
that most of them would like to forget or pretend
that never happened (or was caused by those not
'true' christians).
Good point. But I'm sure some would like to go back
nonetheless because it was a time where they pretty
much had impunity, and the state and church worked
hand in hand. If only for that, they'd like it.
Valid point. The desire to create a theocracy or some-
thing akin to a theocracy is present amongst many chris-
tians, simply reflecting a paucity of education on all mat-
ters relating to the way in which christianity impacted the
world deleteriously, in the past.
Islam actually is averse to going there as that was
an age in which Islam was the progressive faith,
with a better grasp of science, logic, and reason
than was present in Christianity at the time.
Maybe at some elite level. But what about the ordinary
people? The sharia was probably enforced even more
harshly than today.
I've found clues of a much more progressive past for
Islam than is the case today. The following excerpt gives
an angle on that:
---
How Islam Lost Its Way
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A37263-2001Dec28¬Found=true
---
Excerpt:
...
Today's sorry situation contrasts starkly with the
Islam of yesterday. Between the 9th and 13th
centuries — the Golden Age of Islam — the only
people doing decent work in science, philosophy
or medicine were Muslims. Muslims not only pre-
served ancient learning, they also made substan-
tial innovations. The loss of this tradition has proven
tragic for Muslim peoples.
Science flourished in the Golden Age of Islam
because of a strong rationalist and liberal tradition,
carried on by a group of Muslim thinkers known as
the Mutazilites.
But in the 12th century, Muslim orthodoxy reawak-
ened, spearheaded by the Arab cleric Imam Al-
Ghazali. Al-Ghazali championed revelation over
reason, predestination over free will. He damned
mathematics as being against Islam, an intoxicant
of the mind that weakened faith.
Caught in the viselike grip of orthodoxy, Islam
choked. No longer would Muslim, Christian and
Jewish scholars gather and work together in the
royal courts. It was the end of tolerance, intellect
and science in the Muslim world. The last great
Muslim thinker, Abd-al Rahman Ibn Khaldun, be-
longed to the 14th century.
Meanwhile, the rest of the world moved on. The
Renaissance brought an explosion of scientific
inquiry in the West. This owed much to translations
of Greek works carried out by Arabs and other
Muslim contributions, but they were to matter little.
...
- - -
Now, Islam is a faith far short of its past.
Hinduism, not sure what was going on with that in
the middle ages.
Buddhism, likely as pro-human and naturalistic a
faith in the middle ages as it is now, but I'd have
to research that to be certain.
Judaism, likely a tortured faith in the middle ages
as that has been the history of Judaism and its
followers for most of its history.
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman
(Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality)
~~~
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